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1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
_________________________________________________________
4
Representing:
5
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
BOARD OF TRUSTEES
7 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
__________________________________________________________
8
VOLUME 1
9 (PAGES 1 THROUGH 199)
10 The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
11 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The
Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, June 13, 2000,
12 commencing at approximately 9:10 a.m.
13
14
15 Reported by:
16 NANCY P. VETTERICK
Registered Professional Reporter
17 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
18 the State of Florida at Large
19
20
21
22 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
23 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850.878.2221
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 JEB BUSH
Governor
4
BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
7
KATHERINE HARRIS
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
10
BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 TOM GALLAGHER
Commissioner of Education
13
* * *
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15
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17
18
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20
21
22
23
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25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 VOTE
4 Parole Commission Approved 5
5
6 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Tom Herndon,
7 Executive Director)
8 1 Approved 6
2 Approved 6
9 3 Approved 12
4 Deferred 34
10 5(A) Approved 35
5(B) Approved 35
11 6 For Information 39
7 Approved 40
12
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
13 (Presented by Ben Watkins,
Director)
14
1 Approved 41
15 2 Approved 41
3 Approved 41
16 4 Approved 42
5 Approved 42
17 6 Approved 43
18 BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
19 TRUST FUND:
20 (Presented by Kirby Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
21
1 Approved 44
22 Substitute 2 Deferred 44
Substitute 3(1) Approved 68
23 Substitute 3(2) Deferred 68
Substitute 3(3) Denied 68
24 Substitute 4 Approved 70
5 Approved 71
25 6 Approved 71
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 INDEX
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 VOTE
4 BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
5 TRUST FUND (CONT'D):
6 (Presented by Kirby Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
7
7 Deferred 95
8 8 Approved 96
9 Approved 96
9 10 No Action 114
Substitute 11 Approved 115
10
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
11 (Presented by Wayne Pierson)
12 1 Withdrawn 117
2 Denied 161
13 3 Remanded 198
14
15
16 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 199
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18
19
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:00 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Now, we need to have a vote on
4 assignment of temporary duty to former
5 commissioners with the Florida Parole Commission.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll move it.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I second it.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded without
9 objection. It's approved. Very good.
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Administration.
2 MR. HERNDON: Good morning, gentlemen. Item
3 Number 1 is approval of the minutes of the meeting
4 held May 23rd as amended.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'll move.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
8 objection, it's approved.
9 MR. HERNDON: Item 2 is approval of fiscal
10 sufficiency of an amount not exceeding $16,645,000
11 State of Florida, Board of Regents, Florida
12 International University Housing Facility Revenue
13 Bonds, Series 2000.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I motion it.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
17 objection, it's approved.
18 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 3 is the
19 presentation of the operating budget for the
20 defined benefit portion of State Board of
21 Administration's operations for fiscal year
22 2000/2001.
23 Governor, you'll recall in the legislation
24 that you signed about 10 days ago that the
25 Legislature passed this year, that they directed
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 the Board to essentially split out defined benefits
2 and all other operations from the defined
3 contribution budget; so we've essentially presented
4 two budgets to you.
5 The second item of the defined contribution
6 portion is contained in the next agenda item.
7 Briefly -- I'm sorry.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
9 MR. HERNDON: Briefly stated, what we are
10 proposing in the defined benefit portion of the
11 budget this morning is a 6 percent increase in
12 expenditures over the prior year, seven new FTEs,
13 three of which are converting OPS positions, some
14 additional enhancements to our computer systems.
15 We've got some Legacy systems that have been
16 with us for some time that the support is running
17 out for them, so we are proposing that. Basically,
18 the budget is reflecting the workload increase and
19 reflecting the performance of the Board in terms of
20 meeting its benchmark and exceeding its benchmark
21 over the last year and some additional cost
22 savings.
23 We recommend that budget to you which also
24 includes, by the way, the Division of Bond Finance,
25 the Florida Prepaid College Board, and the Florida
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 Hurricane Catastrophe Fund budget.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, recognizing that the
3 Legislature has asked this be split up, you're not
4 going to -- you're still one entity.
5 MR. HERNDON: That's correct.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are there certain economies --
7 well, we'll get to the defined contribution part of
8 this, but are there any shared costs that will
9 impact both?
10 MR. HERNDON: In fact, there are, Governor,
11 and we're going to talk fairly explicitly about
12 that as we look at some of the defined contribution
13 issues. We have already begun a cost allocation
14 process within the Board because the time of a
15 number of our senior people would be split between
16 the defined benefit role and the defined
17 contribution role.
18 Furthermore, we anticipate that positions in
19 this budget and in the defined contribution budget,
20 while they're labeled as one or the other, aren't
21 necessarily always going to be 100 percent
22 dedicated to that mission; so we anticipate some
23 benefit from that aspect of it as well.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I have another question that's
25 related to the defined benefit or the traditional
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 budget that you have. That relates to the pay
2 increases. Did you set up performance evaluation
3 criteria that -- is everybody getting the same?
4 MR. HERNDON: Well, what we're proposing is
5 that we have the normal COLA that everybody has
6 recommended that the balance of state government
7 receives, and then the Board adopts, as part of its
8 ongoing operation, a benchmark for performance.
9 In this case, it's a composite benchmark from
10 the performance for all of the ASC classes, and we
11 outperformed that benchmark by 134 bases, $1.2
12 billion this year; so it wasn't simply keeping pace
13 with the market. We outperformed the market by
14 that amount.
15 So basically, what we've proposed is the
16 equivalent of $200,000 to be disbursed by the
17 supervisors of the various units in the Board to
18 those employees whose performance contributed to
19 that outperformance, and there are criteria within
20 the Board, and there are personnel evaluations that
21 have to be conducted as part of that disbursement
22 process.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Will the percentage increase
24 be the same for everybody?
25 MR. HERNDON: No, it will not. It's strictly
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 a merit-based, contribution-based increase.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Remember, I'm relatively new
3 on the job; so I don't know that I've ever had this
4 conversation with you, but do we evaluate your
5 performance?
6 MR. HERNDON: Yes, you do.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Have we done that?
8 MR. HERNDON: No, you have not.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: When do you anticipate us
10 doing that?
11 MR. HERNDON: Whatever is your pleasure,
12 Governor. It's always available to you at any
13 time. I feel like I'm constantly evaluated --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I suggest that we do it
15 before the beginning of the new year.
16 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think it'd be fairer.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It generally is done,
19 Governor, and we look at all of the individuals
20 that fall into Tom's category.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: We should do this -- I mean,
22 we should do it prior to July 1st, don't you think?
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I think that'd be a
24 smart thing to do.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: He wants to do
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 it when market it rising.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: What's good for one is
3 not necessarily good for the other. I might want
4 to comment on that because we've been trying to do
5 that, and some of the efforts in dealing with the
6 Legislature we've had a great deal of success.
7 I completely support that. I think it's a
8 good way of recognizing quality and keeping
9 quality.
10 MR. HERNDON: I might add, Governor, just
11 parenthetically that as it relates to the defined
12 budget, defined benefit budget and other budgets of
13 the Board, we also recognize that the Department of
14 Banking and Finance, the Division of Retirement and
15 perhaps other agencies will have costs associated
16 with implementing defined contributions.
17 In fact, coincidentally, we're meeting with
18 the House and Senate appropriations committees this
19 afternoon to talk about just that aspect of it.
20 That's not before you today, but perhaps at some
21 future date, we'll need to talk about some
22 consolidated budget impacts, if you will.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good. Any other
24 discussion on Item 3?
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'll move Item 3.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
3 objection, it's approved.
4 MR. HERNDON: The next item, Governor, is the
5 second budget that we just discussed briefly, and
6 that is the defined contribution portion of the
7 budget. We've also presented for you to consider
8 today an organizational chart and a time line.
9 I have to characterize some of these products
10 as being a work in progress because we are very
11 much in the throes of trying to plan this entire
12 operation and don't want to represent to you that
13 they are final by any stretch of the imagination.
14 I know that there's an interest in deferring
15 the budget today which is perfectly fine. The
16 other two items we were planning on just bringing
17 up for your discussion, and I think it might be
18 worthwhile.
19 We've got a minute to look at the
20 organizational chart because that really sets the
21 stage for much of what is scheduled to follow. You
22 should see a yellow and white, legal-size piece of
23 paper, and what I want --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Before you begin, are you
25 seriously -- how are you going to pronounce that
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 acronym?
2 MR. HERNDON: Well, that's one of our great
3 regrets in the course of this legislative process
4 is we have an acronym in the first place which I
5 know you don't prefer.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: How do you pronounce that?
7 MR. HERNDON: It's PEORP is what we --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that Swedish?
9 MR. HERNDON: It's really a mouthful, but
10 unfortunately, I believe, that is the Public
11 Employee Optional Retirement Program, so we're
12 stuck with it, I'm afraid. We just didn't think
13 about that at the time.
14 Basically, what you see in front of you that's
15 outlined in the yellow blocks is an implementation
16 structure that contemplates an implementation
17 group, which you'll notice is the box underneath G,
18 Executive Director, see the PEORP implementation
19 group.
20 Essentially, that's a steering committee.
21 That is myself as chair and five of our senior
22 chiefs, who also are chairs of these respective
23 working groups underneath them, plus a
24 representative of the Division of Retirement.
25 It's the role of that group to make sure that
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 we're staying on task and on time. We do recommend
2 a couple of staff positions that are contemplated
3 in the budgets that staff that working group, but
4 basically that's the group that has the broad-based
5 oversight of the entire project.
6 Then you see underneath that group separate
7 implementation groups, one for investment services,
8 which are chaired by our two chiefs for equities
9 and fixed income, education, which our chief
10 economist chairs, third-party administration, which
11 Gwenn Thomas, who is a candidate for CFO as chief
12 of administrative services, chairs, and then also
13 the asset transition implementation group.
14 Again, let me point out that these are
15 existing staff members who will be functioning in a
16 committee-style process with tasks assigned to
17 these committees to carry out as it relates to
18 accomplishing our mission over the next two and a
19 half years.
20 In many cases, there are some staff members
21 assigned to these committees to actually do some of
22 the legwork and to do some of the coordination and
23 so forth that's necessary, and it's our expectation
24 that each of these committees will have a
25 consultant available to them, as the need arises,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 to help in planning this overall implementation
2 activity.
3 In fact, the general consultant that the Board
4 is proposing to hire we're interviewing the
5 finalists tomorrow and Thursday of this week; so
6 we'll hopefully have a general consultant on board
7 fairly quickly.
8 The mission of that particular consultant is
9 really to help us with transition planning and
10 project management, not intended to be necessarily
11 a specialist in third-party administration or
12 education.
13 This is a huge undertaking. It's been
14 represented to us that it is the largest conversion
15 of the pension in the history of this country. We
16 know it involves at least 600,000 people who have
17 to be educated.
18 We have to have a third-party administrator
19 who is capable of handling that kind of volume. We
20 have to have investment products that are geared to
21 the needs of those individuals. The other thing I
22 would point out, just by way of reference, is the
23 advisory committee that's up there that advises you
24 and the other trustees, and we're still looking
25 forward to the appointments that you and the other
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 appointing authorities will make to that advisory
2 committee.
3 That is going to be a working advisory
4 committee. We really are looking forward to having
5 some folks on that advisory committee that will
6 spend some time and help us think through this
7 entire operation.
8 We're also recommending, and we'll probably
9 propose at the meeting on the 26th a slight
10 modification of this organizational chart. Where
11 you see independent fiduciary, probably a better
12 term for that is an independent advisor.
13 One of the critical aspects of this entire
14 operation is, as you, I know, are sensitive to, and
15 we've talked to the other trustees about, that you
16 essentially are wearing two hats now as fiduciaries
17 to both the DB members and the DC members.
18 It's very clear to us, and our current general
19 consultant to the Board has already advised us that
20 you clearly have a duty now of fairness to all of
21 the members of the plan, regardless of which one
22 they happen to be in, to make sure that they're all
23 treated equally as we go through this process of
24 evolution and implementation.
25 As an example, when we get to the time that
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1 assets have to be liquidated and moved to
2 individual accounts, we cannot do anything that
3 disadvantages unfairly the remaining members of the
4 DB plan because you are fiduciary to those
5 individual members; so we need to liquidate assets
6 in an appropriate fashion and in a fair fashion so
7 no party is inequitably handled in that process.
8 We're proposing an independent advisor to be
9 at arm's length from the process, to keep an eye on
10 what we're doing to make sure that you discharge
11 your fiduciary duty, that we discharge ours
12 appropriately, and to say to us, you know, we don't
13 think that what you're proposing to do in this
14 particular fashion is the right thing to do.
15 It may wind up having an unintended effect of
16 whatever the conclusion might be. Again, we've got
17 a specific group there for asset transition. The
18 last point I wanted to make under the
19 organizational chart, Governor and members of the
20 trustees, is that for each of these implementation
21 groups, they will be staffed by members of our
22 staff, members of the Division of Retirement, from
23 Banking and Finance.
24 We're asking the various constituency groups,
25 the school boards, the counties, the special
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 districts and so forth to all designate members who
2 are really practitioners, if you can accept that
3 word in the truest sense, people who understand how
4 the payroll system works in the school system,
5 because we're going to have to interface with 800
6 employers as part of this process.
7 They're going to be sending money into a
8 third-party administrator. We have to make sure
9 that our systems are compatible, that we understand
10 the process and everything else; so we're really
11 going to draw, we hope, on a lot of expertise from
12 those constituent groups.
13 That's basically the organizational structure.
14 We obviously contemplate that this will be modified
15 somewhat as time goes on, and we understand even
16 more what we're involved in. As I said, our
17 general consultant, the one that we're really
18 looking to to help us with project management,
19 isn't even on board yet, but we're hoping to have
20 somebody on board fairly quickly.
21 I'll stop at that point because I want to move
22 onto a discussion briefly about the time line just
23 to highlight --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I ask a few questions?
25 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: On the consultants, there are
2 six consultants in varying areas of this
3 undertaking.
4 MR. HERNDON: Actually, there may be more,
5 Governor.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: More?
7 MR. HERNDON: Some --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: And the general consultant is
9 going to be -- do you have a management issue here
10 of all these consultants running around kind of
11 without having the broader picture? Is the general
12 consultant's job to be the project coordinator of
13 this?
14 MR. HERNDON: To a certain degree, that's
15 correct. It is the responsibility of that --
16 pardon the expression -- PEORP implementation
17 group, with myself as chair and the chairs of each
18 of the separate implementation groups, to monitor
19 and coordinate the activities of the entire
20 implementation process, but the general consultant,
21 as you point out, is intended to be assisting us in
22 project management and transition planning.
23 That's precisely the skill set that we're
24 looking for this Wednesday and Thursday in the
25 interviews.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: If someone is one of these six
2 or more consultants, they're not going to be an arm
3 of -- an affiliate of theirs or a subsidiary of
4 theirs won't be a participant in the investment
5 side of this?
6 MR. HERNDON: That's correct. We've made it
7 very clear in the RFI that we sent out for this
8 consultant, and in future RFIs that we send out,
9 that if you accept the role to do X, you cannot do
10 A, B, C and D. You're precluded from providing
11 investment services or whatever the case may be.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: The third-party administrator,
13 I assume, the same would apply, right?
14 MR. HERNDON: That's correct.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: 'Cause one of the issues in
16 the Legislature, the bill did require a separation.
17 MR. HERNDON: A separation, that's correct.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: And is the third-party
19 administrator the only entity that -- I mean, you
20 won't need a heavy barrage of -- an arsenal of
21 consultancy once this is set up, will you?
22 MR. HERNDON: No, that's correct. I think
23 it's our expectation that once we get in place a
24 third-party administrator, and investment providers
25 and an education vendor for the ongoing education
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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1 -- 'cause recall that every new employee who comes
2 into the government system will be given that
3 choice; so whatever the turnover is for the entire
4 system, let's say 15 percent, that means that
5 you'll have 60 to 100,000 new people every year who
6 will require an education.
7 Once you get past this implementation phase,
8 two and a half years from now, the need for many of
9 these consultants will dissipate significantly. In
10 fact, the need for a portion of the staff that
11 we're recommending in the budget will also
12 dissipate.
13 We anticipate that there may be some ongoing
14 supervision, but that's all.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Have you looked at how other
16 states have done this that may not be as big?
17 MR. HERNDON: Yes, we have. We've spent a
18 good bit of time talking to other states not only
19 in preparing this organizational structure, but the
20 time line and the budget, and, as you point out,
21 the scale is part of the problem that we're dealing
22 with.
23 Furthermore, as you know, although there are
24 instances in other jurisdictions where plans have
25 gone through this kind of transition, they're all a
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1 little bit different, and as a consequence, we
2 don't have a precise model that we can adopt and
3 use for our own purposes here.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other --
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I always have a look at
6 these wire diagrams, and I'm always interested in
7 how the lines move, and where they go, and what
8 they really mean. For example, the IAC, which is
9 shown as a direct advisor to the --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. What's the IAC?
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That is the --
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Investment
13 Advisory Council.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- Investment Advisory
15 Council that's been in existence for some time, but
16 it doesn't directly advise the trustees. In fact,
17 generally, and the way I see it, it operates
18 through the executive director.
19 The executive director -- I mean, I certainly
20 have sat on a number of IAC meetings, but they are
21 not directly advising the trustees. We show this
22 PEORP as also directly advising the trustees.
23 Further, and while Tom has acknowledged that, that
24 dotted line, whatever that dotted line means from
25 this term we called independent fiduciary before it
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1 will be called something else, it's been eliminated
2 going directly to the trustees.
3 I think we have to be real careful as the
4 trustees and with our fiduciary responsibilities
5 and the ERISA rules, under which we have to
6 operate, that we don't cloud the lines of
7 responsibility, and we don't cloud the lines of
8 staff support, and we don't create confusion as to
9 someone saying this is a fair investment item, some
10 fiduciary advisor, and then we choose not to take
11 it, for example, and what does that do to us in the
12 context of our fiduciary responsibility.
13 I guess I'm concerned that we have an SBA
14 staff, when we're talking about defined benefit or
15 defined contribution, is a staff that is advising
16 us as trustees. We can go seek any external
17 support we may choose, but they are the ones that
18 are advising us.
19 I'm not sure that that's really clear in the
20 way this thing is laid out; so it's more a
21 reservation about the way we are receiving advice
22 and staff support.
23 MR. HERNDON: We've had conversation with the
24 General about that. I think we intend to portray
25 this a little differently when we come back to you
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1 on the 26th for further representations.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But I think it also
3 refers to the IAC and the PEORP and where they fit
4 in in relationship with advice to the trustee or
5 whatever it's called.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Has there been any thought
7 given to -- I'm not saying I'm in support of this,
8 but just to look at other options, to have this be
9 completely outsourced with a minimal amount
10 involvement by the SBA?
11 How does it affect our liability, the
12 fiduciary responsibility?
13 MR. HERNDON: Well, somebody would have to be
14 willing to accept the fiduciary responsibility and,
15 in effect, take control -- I use that word very
16 advisedly because I think you can define that from
17 zero to 100, so to speak -- there are varying
18 levels of control -- but willing to take control of
19 the operation and the asset disposition and so
20 forth in order for them to be fiduciaries.
21 I don't think you can, as a matter of law and
22 looking back on the statute itself, delegate that
23 responsibility to someone unless they take on that
24 fiduciary responsibility. I don't know.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't think anybody would
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1 jump to do it.
2 MR. HERNDON: I suspect not, Governor, but, I
3 mean, you may find somebody. I mean, we thought we
4 would find a dramatic number of people who would
5 respond to our RFP. Instead we got six responses,
6 four of which were, in fact, to the point, and two
7 were not; so that's what we go to our RFI if that's
8 any indication of --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I would think that's
10 because of scale.
11 MR. HERNDON: It may be part of that. That
12 may be, in fact, part of the problem.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you talk a little bit
14 about the education element of this, how you
15 envision this working over the next two and a half
16 years?
17 MR. HERNDON: It might be worthwhile to look,
18 if you don't mind, at the timetable, which is the
19 next attachment, which is several legal pages long
20 that document there.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: This one?
22 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir. No. I'm sorry.
23 That's a budget component. You should have a
24 multipage --
25 TREASURER NELSON: This one?
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1 MR. HERNDON: Yes, correct, that Commissioner
2 Nelson has. You don't have that, Governor?
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Go ahead.
4 MR. HERNDON: This is a time line that we're
5 working on, as I indicated, a real true work in
6 progress because as we really understand more about
7 this project -- you'll see that we basically tried
8 to define it in terms of our major tasks.
9 Each of these tasks relates fairly closely to
10 one of our implementation groups, and you'll see
11 there, for example, education. We're starting that
12 process now. It's our expectation, based on the
13 way this system works, the first window for state
14 employees to be educated under the law is March of
15 2002; so everything is backed up from that date.
16 Now, things that you have to do ahead of that
17 date are you have to select and endorse an
18 investment policy. We basically have to have all
19 of the decisions made about what kind of investment
20 portfolio will be available in the broad sense,
21 what are the individuals products that will be
22 offered, and we fundamentally also have to have the
23 third-party administrator on board and ready to go.
24 We will be working with consultants to help us
25 design the content of that education program, but
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1 essentially what you have is an educational program
2 that is focused at two levels. This is where
3 there's a particularly critical ERISA and fiduciary
4 dimension to this, is you have an obligation, as
5 fiduciaries, to educate the members as to DB versus
6 DC, if you will accept that kind of simplistic
7 choice.
8 You know, here's the benefits of being a DB
9 recipient. Here's the benefits of DC recipient and
10 the implications for you, as an individual, given
11 your age, your sex, your mortality, statistics and
12 so on and so forth.
13 Then once someone has chosen for example DC,
14 then concurrent with that choice effectively is an
15 education about the various investment products
16 that are available to you as a DC participant,
17 which ones make the most sense for you as a DC
18 participant.
19 All of that education, under the law, has to
20 be provided by an independent third party. It
21 can't be an investment provider. It can't be
22 anybody else. It must be an independent vendor; so
23 one of the things that the Board will do -- and as
24 you see in the time line that's laid out there
25 under education -- is working on designing the
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1 investment policy, working on designing the content
2 of the education program, working on finding a
3 vendor or vendors -- and this is where, Governor,
4 we talked a little bit about multiple consultants,
5 for example, where you may have one here who works
6 with us on the content of the education program but
7 may not be able, in fact, to deliver an education
8 program to 600,000 people in a nine-month period of
9 time.
10 We tried to address that here with this time
11 line. This time line is, as I said, a rough draft.
12 We've already got a version dated July 7th that
13 supersedes this one. We'll continue to do that for
14 I'm sure sometime to come, but if that answers your
15 question on education and just to kind of give you
16 a flavor for the tasks ahead of us --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: It does. It does. I'd be
18 curious to know -- first of all, I have -- we have
19 to make the appointments to the --
20 MR. HERNDON: Advisory Council.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. And you have a time?
22 MR. HERNDON: The sooner, the better,
23 Governor.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tomorrow would be better.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Not later than the ones
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1 in February.
2 MR. HERNDON: That's correct, not later than
3 the ones in February.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: You could --
5 MR. HERNDON: As soon as they're available,
6 we'll start working with them. In fact, we have
7 our Investment Advisory Committee, the IAC that
8 General Milligan referred to earlier that meets on
9 the 23rd of this month.
10 There are also activities for them to do in
11 this process, and we will begin the briefing for
12 them on the 23rd; so we're ready to go, as soon as
13 you-all and the Speaker and the President are
14 ready, with the other appointing authorities
15 besides the three of you.
16 The other point, Governor, I might make with
17 respect to the education program, because you
18 raised that specifically, is in the second year of
19 the budget, which we're going to talk about more in
20 depth on the 26th.
21 But in the second year of that budget, we have
22 begun to identify some of the significant costs
23 associated with the implementation, and all of
24 these were contemplated by the Legislature I might
25 add when they set up the fee structure.
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1 In that second year is the first time you see
2 the education costs, and basically what we've done
3 is we've surveyed other states, and we've picked a
4 number. It's not exactly a swag, but it's a
5 reasonable approximation of $50 per employee.
6 Well, that's $30 million when you multiply it
7 times 600,000 employees.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why is that reasonable?
9 MR. HERNDON: Why is that reasonable?
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, I mean --
11 MR. HERNDON: We think it is reasonable based
12 upon what we know other states have spent on their
13 education program.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: But other states didn't have
15 Web, for example, a Web-enabled means of
16 communicating with 100 --
17 MR. HERNDON: That's right.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: How many people?
19 MR. HERNDON: 600,000.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: 600,000 people.
21 MR. HERNDON: That's right. We fully
22 anticipate using the Internet extensively, and a
23 lot of other media methods as well, but the $50 we
24 thought was a reasonable approximation for the
25 cost.
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1 Now, it may be a little bit high. It may be a
2 little bit low in the final analysis that it will
3 be a function. The content that you're trying to
4 deliver, the means by which you deliver that
5 content -- not all of our employees have access to
6 the Internet.
7 In fact, if you can talk to the Division of
8 Retirement, they will tell you now that over 300 of
9 the 800 employers out there who are members of the
10 FRS still send their employee contribution, the
11 paperwork, in as opposed to doing it via E-mail or
12 electronic means. It's not --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: We ought to require that they
14 not.
15 MR. HERNDON: I'm completely in accord with
16 you on that point, and that's a battle that we'll
17 have to --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: You can't tell me that 800
19 employers don't have access to the Internet. It's
20 possible that many of the employees don't, but the
21 800 employers -- if they don't, then we should
22 solve that problem by appropriating --
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Some little --
24 MR. HERNDON: Buy them a computer.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: They don't even have a
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1 computer?
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Some little small
3 special districts that have two or three people.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: They should. We'll solve that
5 problem in the Legislature.
6 MR. HERNDON: We may be able to solve that
7 problem.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: You show me a place that
9 doesn't have access to the Internet that's
10 involving the state, and we'll solve it.
11 MR. HERNDON: I don't think it's necessarily
12 access problems. It's willingness problems in some
13 cases.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's a different subject.
15 MR. HERNDON: I agree. I agree. In any case,
16 the budget that we will talk about on the 26th is
17 before you today for your information. It is about
18 60 percent consulting costs. Again, what we tried
19 to do is look at other jurisdictions, take that
20 information and scale it to our particular needs.
21 In some cases, we've been able to do that
22 reasonably well. We know, for example, what other
23 jurisdictions are spending to take the question of
24 tax status to the IRS and so forth.
25 In other cases, frankly, we really don't know
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1 how much some of these consulting services will
2 cost us; so we fully expect to be back with you at
3 some future date as need be on this budget as we
4 get more refined information.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions or
6 comments?
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Let me comment on the
8 budget, just to reinforce your comments earlier
9 when we were talking about Item 3. You'll notice
10 there that there is a reference to Department of
11 Banking and Finance and, for that matter, to the
12 Department of Management Services for a budget 2000
13 and 2001 which is obviously going to require some
14 supplemental budget I believe.
15 The bulk of the budget for DBF, the Department
16 of Banking and Finance, is non-reocurring. It's to
17 take care of the changes to the system, the
18 information system, for the payroll to get it fixed
19 and make sure that we can handle the new way of
20 doing business.
21 I don't know what the total is for DMS in
22 terms of non-reocurring versus reocurring, but the
23 important thing, Governor is that we're going to
24 have a supplemental budget for one of your agencies
25 and my agency.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
2 MR. HERNDON: That's the subject of that
3 meeting this afternoon is to kick off that
4 conversation.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. Any other
6 questions?
7 (No response.)
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 4 was for information
9 purposes?
10 MR. HERNDON: Well, we're deferring the
11 budget, and the other two items were for
12 information.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move deferral all of
14 the budget items.
15 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and second to
17 defer to June 26th.
18 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 5, there are two
19 components to Item 5. They are both sets of the
20 rules for the Hurricane Catastrophe Fund to
21 implement the rules for the 2000/2001 contract
22 year, and for adopting the premium formula, and
23 then the second is rules related to the Florida
24 Hurricane Catastrophe Fund bonding procedures.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll move Items A and
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1 B.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, before I --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
4 TREASURER NELSON: And I'll second that, but I
5 just wanted to confirm that what we are adopting
6 here does not include any stabilization charge in
7 the premium for a proposed reinsurance product that
8 that we're going to discuss in Item 6.
9 MR. HERNDON: That's correct. It does not.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved. Item 6?
12 MR. HERNDON: Item 6 is to notify trustees
13 that the Hurricane Catastrophe Fund and the staff
14 of SBA have selected Guy Carpenter and and LehmanRe
15 as reinsurance intermediaries for the Florida
16 Hurricane Catastrophe Fund.
17 We had an evaluation team that was made up of
18 our employees and some outside participants that
19 looked at the prospective vendors. It was a
20 unanimous selection of this particular firm as the
21 best to advise us.
22 They are working, if you will, on a contingent
23 basis. There's no compensation for the services
24 that they provide unless and until the Board
25 authorizes the acquisition of some sort of
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1 reinsurance product.
2 At that point, they would be compensated by a
3 variety of parties. Basically, what this is
4 about -- and Commissioner Nelson has already
5 touched on this -- is that, as we go through the
6 evolution of the CAT Fund, there is a set of
7 expectations that develop within the insurance
8 industry and others as to the ability of the CAT
9 Fund to deliver the anticipated cash and bond total
10 dollars at some future date.
11 Let's hope we don't have to do that, but if we
12 had a hurricane this year and it was of a
13 consequence that caused us to spend all of our
14 cash, spend through the cash, and have to go to the
15 market to bond, at that point we start running into
16 risks associated with the bond market, liquidity
17 risks, interest rate risks and so on.
18 What we are looking for with this particular
19 consultant's help is whether or not there is a
20 reinsurance product or other type of product like a
21 credit facility, line of credit that JUA and the
22 windstorm pool have that would help us minimize the
23 risks of a shortfall if and when there was a need
24 to draw on the cash and bond proceeds up to the
25 total currently authorized $11 billion.
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1 There's no obligation on the part of the CAT
2 Fund to necessarily produce $11 billion, but
3 there's certainly a clear expectation, I think,
4 that the CAT Fund can produce the $11 billion, and
5 depending on market circumstances and so forth, we
6 may or may not be able to produce that $11 billion
7 when the time comes.
8 As you talk to the insurance industry to
9 varying degrees -- and the Commissioners are very
10 well aware of this -- the insurance companies are
11 dependent on the CAT Fund for meeting some of their
12 future cash flow obligations.
13 Basically what this is intended to do is to
14 explore this whole question of whether or not there
15 is a product that would help us minimize some of
16 the risks of producing the cash and bond proceeds
17 at a reasonable enough cost to make it worthwhile.
18 We don't know the answer to that question, but
19 that's precisely the question that we're asking,
20 and we intend to come back to you, hopefully, on
21 the 26th with a recommendation. It may very well
22 be that the recommendation is that the consultants
23 looked at it, and we looked at it, and we're not
24 recommending anything, but it may be, as well, that
25 they find a product or a package of products that
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1 meet our needs at a cost that's manageable, in
2 which case, we might come back and recommend that
3 to you, Commissioners.
4 That's when the stabilization reserve that you
5 were talking about comes into play, if it does.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, can you get some
7 information to me about where we stand in terms of
8 just the reserve and surplus and the --
9 MR. HERNDON: The cash balance on the Fund --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Compared to where we were last
11 year.
12 MR. HERNDON: Oh, okay. I'll e-mail you
13 something that will give you a snapshot of where we
14 are.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Cause I got a sneaking
16 suspicion -- I'm not a weather expert, but I think
17 we were pretty lucky last year that Floyd didn't
18 hit us, and all the experts are saying that we have
19 a very similar kind of hurricane season coming up,
20 and 1 degree difference to the east would have
21 probably made that a very relative point to know
22 where we stand with the funds.
23 MR. HERNDON: We'll be happy to do that.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was for informational
25 purposes, right?
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1 MR. HERNDON: That's correct.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, on the basis of
3 what Tom has told us, I want for us to have a
4 policy discussion here when this item is brought up
5 as to whether or not the financing program like
6 this is necessary and if the cost justifies the
7 benefit.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely
9 MR. HERNDON: Correct.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Am I missing something
11 here? Is there not a relationship with this effort
12 here on reinsurance and 5(B)?
13 MR. HERNDON: In a sense, yes. The rules in
14 5(B) that we're promulgating here are really
15 rewriting some of the rules so that if we have to
16 bond, the rules are in the proper format, but
17 that's the only relationship.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I thought there
19 was a reinsurance piece to 5(B) that's being
20 considered. No?
21 MR. HERNDON: No. I don't think so either,
22 General. I was looking at Dr. Nichols, and he
23 shakes his head no. That's not my recollection
24 either, so --
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right.
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1 MR. HERNDON: The last item, Item Number 7, is
2 requesting your approval of David Nye as the chair
3 of the Florida Commission of Hurricane Loss
4 Projection Methodology for the 2000/2001. Dr. Nye
5 is a professor of insurance at the University of
6 Florida.
7 He's been the vice chairman of the methodology
8 commission for several years.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll move Item 7.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
12 objection, it's approved. Well, of all the things
13 that we do, this one has more zeros than anything
14 else.
15 (The State of Board of Administration Agenda
16 was concluded.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance?
2 You're back.
3 MR. WATKINS: Yes, I made it after staying the
4 night in Atlanta. Item Number 1 is approval of the
5 minutes of the April 11th meeting.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Moved.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
9 objection, it's approved.
10 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is a resolution
11 authorizing the competitive sale of $16,645,000 of
12 housing revenue bonds for Florida International
13 University.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Moved.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
17 objection, it's approved.
18 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is a resolution
19 authorizing the issuance of up to $24,400,000 in
20 housing revenue bonds for Florida Atlantic
21 University.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Moved.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
25 objection, it's approved.
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1 MR. WATKINS: Item 4 is a housecleaning
2 matter. It's canceling previously authorized but
3 unissued bonds for the University of Florida
4 housing system and restating the original
5 authorizing resolution and all subsequent
6 amendments to that resolution.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the floor.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
10 objection, it's approved.
11 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 5 is the report of
12 award on a competitive sale of $197,900,000 PECO
13 bonds. The bonds awarded to the low bidder at a
14 true interest cost of 5.65 percent.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
18 objection, it's approved.
19 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 6 is a report of
20 award on the competitive sale of $150,000,000 in
21 lottery revenue bonds. The bonds were awarded to
22 the low bidder at a true interest cost rate of 5.74
23 percent.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
2 objection, it's approved.
3 (The Division of Bond Finance Agency was
4 concluded.)
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Board of Trustees?
2 (Treasurer Nelson exits the room.)
3 MR. GREEN: Item 1, approval of minutes of the
4 April 25, 2000 meeting.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move it.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
8 objection, it's approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 2, deferral to the
10 July 25th meeting.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: A motion and a second to defer
14 to July 25th. Without objection, it's approved.
15 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 3, we have a
16 request from the Department of Management Services
17 to lease 5 acres for 50 years, Miami-Dade Fire and
18 Rescue Department to lease 55 acres for 50 years,
19 and the Department of Juvenile Justice for a
20 50-year lease on 25 acres.
21 Our recommendation on the item is to approve
22 the 50-year lease to DMS and to deny the approval
23 of a lease to Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue and to the
24 Department of Juvenile Justice. We have a number
25 of speakers, Governor.
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1 The first speaker is Mr. Jessie Jones.
2 MR. JONES: Governor and Cabinet Members,
3 thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to
4 you on this issue this morning. We've already had
5 the opportunity to speak to your aides in depth; so
6 we'll try to be as brief as we can.
7 One of the things that I would like to go over
8 with you on that issue is that our position is
9 pretty well-known on DJJ. Thanks to my good
10 friend, Morgan Levy, who's adequately responded to
11 all of you, and one of the finest citizens I know,
12 by the way.
13 The position that we've always taken in West
14 Dade -- you up here pretty well know everything
15 that we oppose. I'd like to take just a brief
16 opportunity to tell you some of the things that
17 we've supported within a 2-mile radius of this
18 site.
19 We supported the Dade County Police
20 Headquarters. We supported a waste recovery center
21 with the proper environmental protection. They
22 actually fought for and helped the Miami-Dade Fire
23 and Rescue secure the current headquarters.
24 We supported a hazardous waste medical
25 facility in our community. We supported the
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1 federal reserve benefit, and we've overwhelmingly
2 supported the South Town Headquarters facility with
3 the 15 acres that you just granted to them.
4 I'd like to say that we continue to support
5 and understand the sensitivity to that, and we do
6 support that. At this time, we also want to let
7 you know that we've been working with the
8 Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue. We have examined --
9 for over a year and a half, we've been working with
10 them on that parcel of land.
11 If the Cabinet should see its way to support
12 that, I could tell you it does have the support of
13 the community. We've had at least five town
14 meetings on that. The town is very well behind the
15 position for leadership, community leadership, has
16 given and I'm reflecting here to you today.
17 In the interest of the DMS, we don't know very
18 much about that. We typically, if this were a
19 local issue, we would ask to have meetings with
20 them to find compatability issues. In closing, I'd
21 like to say that from having appeared here last
22 week, it occurred to me that you're entering into
23 some long-term leases on some state-owned land.
24 That land, regardless of who you would lease
25 it to, is required to go through the local zoning
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1 process; so I think in the process of fairness to
2 the State and fairness to the applicants, that if
3 you were to condition those leases subject to local
4 zoning at some date certain, within a reasonable
5 period of time, that way if they couldn't secure
6 the local zoning, that land would immediately come
7 back into the state land back, and you wouldn't
8 have a 50-year lease sitting out there, effectively
9 having some dead property sitting there.
10 So in closing, I'd like to say that the
11 community does support the local fire department,
12 and we would welcome the opportunity to work with
13 DMS to find out what their actual needs are, and
14 absent that, we'd like to see that you make the
15 decision in favor of the fire department. Thank
16 you.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
18 MR. GREEN: The next speaker is David Paulson,
19 and he's the fire chief of Miami-Dade.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome, Chief.
21 CHIEF PAULSON: Thank you for the time
22 allowing us to be here. Before I start, I wanted
23 to commend the Governor and your comments. I know
24 Bob Crawford, the work they've done with the
25 Florida Forestry.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: You guys, too.
2 CHIEF PAULSON: They've done a great job. The
3 relationship between local fire departments around
4 the State of Florida Forestry is perhaps the very
5 best it's ever been, and the operation is almost
6 seemly.
7 You've just done a great job, and we thank you
8 for it. I also want to thank all of your staff. I
9 know this issue has taken a lot of your time, and
10 it's a very sensitive issue. We're aware of that,
11 but your staff has been very informative and very
12 helpful, and also, above all things, very, very
13 professional.
14 We appreciate that. You can be very proud of
15 how they've acted on this issue. What I'd like to
16 do is, if you don't mind, I'd like to bring Chief
17 Tyler Smith, my assistant chief, to give you an
18 overview of the project that we're going to do.
19 We'll keep it very brief, and I'd just like to
20 make a very short closing statement because I've
21 been around a long time. I'm a native of Dade
22 County and a fifth generation Floridian; so I know
23 what the issues are.
24 Above all things, we want to do what's right
25 for our community and what's right for the State of
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1 Florida, and we think that our position does that.
2 We'd like to show you the project, and then I'd
3 like to just close out with a very short maybe half
4 a minute or so.
5 CHIEF SMITH: Thank you. Governor Bush,
6 Members of the Florida Cabinet, thank you for the
7 opportunity to speak to you this morning. In
8 February of this year, Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue
9 submitted an application for the lease of the state
10 that we're now discussing.
11 It's our intention to develop this property as
12 a fire rescue training facility. Some of the
13 components of a facility of this type will be a
14 building for classrooms, labs and staff offices, a
15 tower, a multistory computer controlled burn
16 building that's environmentally sensitive,
17 emergency vehicle operator's course, hazardous
18 materials simulation areas, aircraft crash
19 simulation areas, MetroRail and people mover rescue
20 simulation areas, marine fire fighting, urban
21 search and rescue training area and a storage
22 warehouse.
23 (Treasurer Nelson enters room.)
24 CHIEF SMITH: The scope of these improvements
25 are contemplated as comprehensive, but so is the
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1 Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue Department's mission.
2 (Governor Bush exits room.)
3 CHIEF SMITH: We provide structural fire
4 suppression, emergency medical service, patient
5 transport, mitigation of hazardous materials,
6 marine fire fighting, water rescue and confined
7 space rescue.
8 We're designated by FEMA as an urban search
9 rescue team, and we're contracted by the United
10 States Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance to
11 provide training and emergency response throughout
12 the world.
13 To accomplish this mission, we employ 1450
14 uniformed firefighters, and over 380 civilian
15 administrators and support staff. We operate 55
16 fire rescue stations, and last year responded to
17 over 160,000 911 requests for assistance.
18 Accomplishing our mission safely and
19 effectively requires constant training. Ladies and
20 Gentlemen, the Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue
21 Department does not have an adequate training
22 facility.
23 Our classrooms consist of several old
24 double-wide trailers behind our current
25 administration building. Our field evaluations are
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1 practiced at borrowed facilities or in public
2 parking lots.
3 In September of 1994, the voters in Miami-Dade
4 County respond to our request for help by
5 authorizing the sale of fire rescue district bonds
6 for the express purpose of constructing a fire and
7 rescue training facility and other fire department
8 facilities.
9 (Governor Bush enters room.)
10 CHIEF SMITH: The first series of the bonds
11 authorized were sold in March of 1996. Our search
12 for 50 acres of centrally located property led us
13 to contact the State in mid-1996 to request the use
14 of this referenced property.
15 This property is adjacent to the fire
16 department's new administration headquarters
17 thereby increasing its logistical value to us. The
18 proposed use of this property for a fire rescue
19 training facility has the endorsement of Miami-Dade
20 Mayor Pinellas, Senator Mario Diaz-Balart, the
21 five-member elected fire board of Miami-Dade County
22 Fire Rescue District, Commissioner Alonso, District
23 12 of the Board of County Commissioners, and I'm
24 proud to say the unanimous endorsement from the
25 West Dade Federation of Home Owners Association
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1 represented here by Mr. Jessie Jones.
2 We believe the use of this property for a fire
3 rescue training facility is in the public's
4 interest, and we request your favorable
5 consideration of our application for a lease for
6 this property. Thank you.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
8 CHIEF PAULSON: Thank you, Chief Smith. We
9 understand the issues. Southern command is right
10 next to this property, and we do not feel like
11 we're in competition with them at all. In fact, we
12 have an outstanding relationship with Southern
13 Command.
14 Through our urban search and rescue team, the
15 grant that funds that, that team also funds our
16 training in South America, Central America and the
17 Caribbean; so we work hand in hand with the
18 Southern Command and their staff. We also work
19 with them on terrorism issues.
20 At this point, they're also looking to lease
21 some space in our new administration because our
22 infrastructure is so redundant. We've worked with
23 Southern Command. We understand the importance of
24 them being here in the State of Florida.
25 They belong here. They belong in South
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1 Florida, and we'll do whatever we can do to make
2 sure they stay here for a long, long time; however,
3 we are the largest fire department in the
4 Southeastern United States, probably one of the
5 10th largest in the country, and we do not have a
6 training facility.
7 We have no place to train our firefighters. I
8 lost a firefighter when I first became Fire Chief,
9 and I don't want that to happen again. I want to
10 make sure that our people have the best trained
11 firefighters and the safest firefighters, and
12 provide the best service that we can.
13 We're also a state resource. The Florida Task
14 Force is under the direction of the Governor, and
15 are capable and willing to respond anywhere in the
16 state that the Governor sends us; so having said
17 that, again we're looking for your consideration
18 and your support. Thank you.
19 We're here to answer questions, also, if you
20 have any.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioners?
22 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, other members of
23 the Cabinet, although I'd really like to support
24 the training facility for fire rescue and believe
25 it's a very important project for the community
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1 from which I come, we have a previous Governor and
2 Cabinet that made a commitment to support the
3 relocation of SouthCom.
4 It's a very important part of the economy in
5 Dade County and a good person to have there,
6 SouthCom. This Cabinet recently approved the use
7 of 15 acres on this particular parcel for SouthCom
8 to use as a buffer to their headquarter complex.
9 Due to the fact that the headquarter is
10 already located adjacent to this property, it would
11 be consistent with previous actions of the Cabinet
12 to continue to support the presence of SouthCom at
13 this location.
14 I think if, in a future date, SouthCom
15 determines that they will not be able to utilize
16 the property, then I would be supportive of a fire
17 and rescue training facility on this site. I think
18 it's a good site for that.
19 That being said, I would like to move that we
20 approve the 50-year lease for 5 acres with DMS, and
21 set aside for five years the remaining 50 acres for
22 the future infrastructure needs of the U.S.
23 Southern Command at its current site and revisit
24 this issue after five years.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion. Is there a
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1 second?
2 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Discussion? We still have
4 other people that need to speak. I have a question
5 to the Chief. Let's let everybody speak first, and
6 then we'll discuss it.
7 MR. GREEN: The next speaker would be Brian
8 Berkowitz who is assistant general counsel of the
9 Department of Juvenile Justice.
10 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I'd like some
11 clarification before we go on here. A member of my
12 staff talked to the commanding general at SouthCom,
13 and, in essence, the answer was, no, they could not
14 commit that they were going to need this land for
15 the future.
16 I'd like to know if General Milligan had any
17 kind of conversations with the general down there,
18 and what did he find out.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, my conversations
20 have been basically along the line that they're not
21 prepared at this time to make a commitment. They
22 are in the process of attempting to solidify their
23 position on the existing piece of property and
24 facility.
25 Because of the costs and requirements
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1 associated with it, that's the point of main effort
2 right now; so they are very reluctant about saying,
3 hey, we want this, and then, oh, by the way, we
4 also want some more.
5 They're fighting the current set of alligators
6 that they have. I would recommend that we give
7 them some time, but I wouldn't give them five
8 years. I would give them some time to try to sort
9 out their situation in terms of dealing with the
10 current piece of property they have and the
11 headquarters, and then see what they might be able
12 to commit to in the not too distant future.
13 I would be happy with maybe waiting six months
14 for them to sort out whether they, in fact, have a
15 requirement, and if they don't state a requirement
16 within six months, then it would go to the
17 Miami-Dade Fire Department. I would not wait five
18 years.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If I may, we did
21 receive a letter directed to Colleen Castille from
22 Enterprise Florida reiterating the alliance that
23 they have with Enterprise Florida, which is the
24 Florida Defense Alliance, and that letter basically
25 says that Florida's military presence has a
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1 significant impact on the Florida economy, and the
2 Alliance has placed great importance on retaining
3 the United States Southern Command, SouthCom
4 Miami-Dade.
5 While the projects being proposed are
6 undoubtedly important, they should be considered
7 with the realization that any occupation of the
8 lands surrounding SouthCom may impact its long-term
9 presence in Florida.
10 They go on to say that the State of Florida
11 has made a commitment to SouthCom's presence in
12 South Florida, and at the present time has made no
13 plans for expansion; however, it is important that
14 the State continue to make land available for
15 future needs of the U.S. Southern Command.
16 If we ration out excessive additional
17 property, limitations may be placed on any future
18 plans for expansion/retention of SouthCom. It is
19 the Alliance's attempt to support SouthCom's
20 presence and its impact of our state. This comes
21 from the senior vice president of strategic
22 resources.
23 I don't know -- I mean, I picked five years
24 because I know decisions made in federal government
25 when it comes to things like SouthCom don't come
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1 very fast, and I'm very supportive of seeing to it
2 that Miami-Dade has a good training facility, and I
3 recognize that importance.
4 At the same time, I wouldn't want to go
5 against the commitment that the Cabinet has made in
6 the past to SouthCom. I don't think Miami-Dade or
7 anybody else wants to lose SouthCom. I'm sure
8 Miami-Dade Fire Department doesn't want to lose
9 them either.
10 Maybe there's some compromise between six
11 months and five years. I'm not locked into five
12 years. I picked that because my gut says that
13 decisions are pretty slow at least on -- and on
14 SouthCom, it's been reasonably slow.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been -- right now,
16 General, we are fighting in the Congress to keep
17 SouthCom here to, in essence, turn this into a
18 permanent expanding facility. Any reasonable
19 person looking at it from a strategic point of view
20 would have to concur that this location is the
21 obvious choice for Southern Command, but, as you
22 know, logic anxious and reasonableness as it
23 relates to who gets what in the military budget is
24 secondary to who has what influence.
25 I think we need to send a very strong signal.
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1 Again, the timing issue is one that we can discuss,
2 but we need to send a strong signal that not only
3 are we happy with the current facility, but that we
4 have made a commitment on a long-term basis to show
5 our support for SouthCom which jives with the
6 previous Cabinet's decision, and it's also good
7 common sense.
8 I would hope that this could be -- we could
9 find -- I don't know if there's 50 acres left in
10 Dade County. I haven't been there in the last
11 year, probably all gobbled up, but I would hope
12 that -- you can't find 50 acres for Southcom. It
13 has to be adjacent to them if they're going to
14 expand.
15 Hopefully we could find some accommodation,
16 but I think we need to -- my personal opinion is we
17 need to make a strong commitment to this incredible
18 asset for our state just as we've done for other
19 military bases as we prepare for further downsizing
20 and cuts in anticipation of the BRAC, the Base
21 Relocation and whatever it's called, Closure. It's
22 another acronym.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I won't disagree with
24 that comment at all. I agree with you fully, and
25 certainly having a unified command of SouthCom's
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1 stature in South Florida is a very positive thing
2 for us nationally and internationally, but I'm a
3 little reluctant to lock it up to five years.
4 Perhaps a better way is to really just
5 postpone the decision on what we do with the 55
6 acres. Go ahead and move on the basis of the 5
7 acres for DMS probably with the contingency subject
8 to the zoning, but nevertheless, hold onto the
9 other 55 acres and just postpone our decision for a
10 period of time, and I threw out six months only
11 because the budget cycle ought to be complete there
12 in --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we do it for two budget
14 cycles?
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right. I'll do it
16 for two budget cycles.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Maybe with a new
18 administration and new senators and all sorts of
19 things --
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right. 18 months,
21 2 years?
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Two years would be better.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can we get a
24 commitment as to two potential senators?
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So I would amend the
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1 Commissioner's proposal that we not do it for five
2 years, but rather do it for two years, grant the 5
3 acres to DMS, which I think was in his original
4 proposal, and then take a look at it in two years.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll second the
6 motion.
7 SECRETARY HARRIS: You said and the General
8 said, of course, you know very well the timing, but
9 as we're looking strategically to South America and
10 the Caribbean, whether it's through drug
11 interdiction training or stabilizing an economy,
12 SouthCom is absolutely crucial.
13 It's not just a matter of strategics, and as,
14 Governor, as you said, this isn't always the most
15 thoughtful process. Sometimes it ends up being
16 politics, and we are certainly in danger of losing
17 SouthCom to Florida politics; so anything we can do
18 to continue to stabilize and give them more
19 flexibility is absolutely crucial to the community.
20 It creates over $150 million through salaries
21 to aides, to the government, and to aides, their
22 aides, and then the community benefits as well,
23 those four contracts; so we had a letter from the
24 Chamber of Commerce stating how crucial it is to
25 the area.
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1 On the other hand, with regard to the
2 firefighters, as the Governor said, 50 acres may be
3 difficult to find, and two years may put them at --
4 may be too long, but to the extent that we can do
5 anything to help assist in that search for
6 additional land.
7 I know the requirements are necessary and
8 quite worthy. We think the world of firefighters;
9 so anything we can do to help assist in that
10 property search in the meantime would be important.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: General, I just want to make
12 sure that -- if I could read the motion and see if
13 you concur with this. To approve the 50-year lease
14 for 5 acres with the Department of Management
15 Services and set aside for two years the remaining
16 50 acres for the future infrastructure needs of the
17 U.S. Southern Command at its current site, and
18 revisit the issue after two years.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Not later than two
20 years. I think we ought to expect Southern Command
21 to come up on the wires as soon as they can
22 identify a requirement if they have one, or not
23 identify one if they don't have one.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Revisit the issue not later
25 than two years?
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yeah.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I would guess
3 that we won't have to remind ourselves. Hopefully
4 Miami-Dade Fire Department will be right here in
5 two years and say we're ready.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I would also --
7 to echo the Governor and the Secretary of State's
8 comments, we ought to work hard to find them a
9 suitable site for their training facility. I can't
10 believe that we can't find one, obviously not
11 adjacent to their administrative building. We
12 ought to find them a suitable site if we put our
13 efforts to it.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Put it next to that casino out
15 there. General Butterworth thinks it's illegal,
16 so --
17 TREASURER NELSON: They really do need a site,
18 and they need it now so they can go ahead and build
19 this state-of-the-art fire training facility. They
20 have the responsibility, for a lot of the fire
21 organizations all over South Florida, to help train
22 them, and they really do need this facility; so I
23 would concur, gentlemen.
24 We need to try to look at surplus federal or
25 state property and see if we can't help the
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1 Miami-Dade Fire Department.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Why don't we just ask
3 the DEP to do just that, get on with it, and find
4 them a suitable site?
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments?
6 MR. GREEN: Governor, if I may, just to
7 clarify the motion. The way we've interpreted that
8 for the minutes will be that we've deferred action
9 for two years on the decision on whether Miami-Dade
10 Fire and Rescue can use the site, and we're going
11 to deny the request from Juvenile Justice to use 25
12 acres on the site and approve the DMS request for 5
13 acres.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. Can it be worded in a
15 way that is a proactive statement of support for
16 SouthCom? I mean, this is not doing nothing. This
17 is a proactive statement, that should they come and
18 make an assessment that they do need this, that we
19 would act proactively to sign off on the lease.
20 MR. GREEN: Yes, sir.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's the point. If we're
22 not doing that, then we might as well accommodate
23 it for a very good use that's the current need as
24 well.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, that's what the
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1 motion said.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I would just say, at
4 the same time, if there is a significant negative
5 development on SouthCom, either something that we
6 don't want or they don't need the land sooner than
7 two years, nothing would prohibit us from coming
8 back quicker and readdressing the firefighters.
9 MR. GREEN: We still have two speakers that
10 would like to speak.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: They still want to speak?
12 TREASURER NELSON: The problem is -- If I
13 could just say to the Commissioner of Agriculture
14 -- that Miami-Dade Fire Department wait two years.
15 They need a facility, and so if we are going to put
16 this off in deference to SouthCom for two years, we
17 need to proactively go out and try to find
18 something for Miami-Dade.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I agree with that 100
20 percent.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do they have any
22 other sites that are sort of in their scope?
23 CHIEF PAULSON: As you-all are well aware,
24 finding 50 acres inside the boundary line in Dade
25 County is -- if you can find it, it's very, very
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1 expensive. We found a couple of sites outside the
2 boundary line, but the problem is they're in the
3 oil fields, and that really limits what we can do.
4 We'd appreciate any help we can get from the
5 State of helping us locate a piece of property, and
6 we will work with you very closely. We really
7 understand the need to keep SouthCom in Miami-Dade
8 County. It's where it belongs, and we support that
9 100 percent.
10 We didn't think our using the property for a
11 training facility impacted that, but if you-all
12 think it does, then obviously, we'll support that.
13 I think Mr. Nelson adequately pointed out that we
14 have to do something soon.
15 We've been operating without a training
16 facility for way too long, and we have the money.
17 I have $23 million sitting in the bank ready to
18 build this facility and develop it, and that's
19 money into the economy also; so we need to move on
20 it. I appreciate you-all --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is there other
22 state-owned land that you're aware of that's in
23 Dade County?
24 CHIEF PAULSON: Not every sub-parameters.
25 With each sub-parameters are centrally located --
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1 you know, our 55 stations are spread across 2,000
2 square miles. We need something that's close to
3 expressways where we can move equipment without
4 keeping them out of service too long, but again, we
5 can hopefully work with your people to --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What kind of facility
7 does Broward have?
8 CHIEF PAULSON: Broward has something that's
9 similar to Miami-Dade which is really inadequate
10 for our type of training. They do a lot of
11 training of recruits, and they do a lot of training
12 with shipboard firefighters, bringing people in to
13 teach them some minimum skills.
14 We don't have access to the day-to-day use of
15 either one of those facilities. Right now we're
16 sending our airport firefighters to Texas to get
17 their one live fire drill the FAA requires, and
18 it's not even enough.
19 We have to put them on airplanes and send them
20 to Texas to do a live fire drill and fly them back
21 home again. It's just not -- obviously not
22 efficient to do that. We should be doing it at
23 home, and they should be having more than one live
24 fire a year; so there's a definite need there, and
25 we have to do something.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A few years ago there
2 was this big push for a Wayne's World. Does
3 someone remember that? Dade County wanted us to
4 give them land. I don't know where that is, but it
5 might be something that could be looked into.
6 CHIEF PAULSON: It's on I-75 and the turnpike.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But there's access to
8 it and -- I mean, that's something that ought to be
9 looked into maybe. I'm just throwing that out.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments? We have a
11 motion and a second. All in favor say aye.
12 (Affirmative response.)
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
14 (No response.)
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: The motion passes.
16 MR. TAIT: I just wanted to say two sentences.
17 I want to say, thanks, number one, and I think it's
18 very important for the Cabinet to be aware of the
19 fact that the indication of the support from the
20 State is probably the most singularly important
21 thing to obtain the $42 million which we are
22 attempting to get through appropriations, and it
23 will be approximately two years before that funding
24 comes about so that a commitment could be made by
25 SouthCom with a formal request.
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1 General, you are more aware than anyone how
2 this procedure works. SouthCom cannot take a
3 position at this time, but it's unbelievably
4 important that this land be preserved for this
5 funding which will give them the opportunity to
6 remain in South Florida.
7 Secretary Harris is well aware. There is a
8 major effort for another state and a very powerful
9 senator to try to get it out of Florida, and
10 believe me, this is a very important indication
11 very important to SouthCom that they remain.
12 General Wilhelm is very much in favor of this,
13 so you should be aware of it. I thank you very
14 much.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
16 MR. GREEN: Governor, Mr. Jones has a
17 recommendation on a possible resolution.
18 MR. JONES: Governor and Staff, this is just
19 as I sat in the audience. This might help Mr.
20 Tait. Perhaps he should look into it. I have some
21 friends in the FAA, and the FAA owns property,
22 approximately 180 acres immediately contiguous to
23 this.
24 Right now there's a big move in Washington to
25 get the military to release some of the GPS
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1 technology, based on what I've been told, and
2 significantly alter the requirement for property on
3 the FAA Site. That's federal land.
4 That's about 180 acres; so I would suggest
5 that in your pursuit to make sure that SouthCom is
6 well received on the part of our state, that you
7 look into that and maybe set an initiative in
8 motion to perhaps accelerate that. That certainly
9 would speak to the issue and all the needs of
10 SouthCom for a long time to come. Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
12 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 4 is request for
13 approval of two perpetual conservation easements to
14 the City of Tallahassee to restrict the future
15 development on 13.8 and 2.37 acres of the San Luis
16 Archaeological and Historic Site.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
20 objection, it's approved.
21 MR. GREEN: Item 5, there's been an exchange
22 between the Department of Juvenile Justice and City
23 of Jacksonville.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
2 objection, it's approved.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 6, option agreement to
4 acquire 665.28 acres in Charlotte Harbor Flatwoods
5 CARL Project.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
9 objection, it's approved.
10 MR. GREEN: Item 7 is consideration of an
11 option agreement to acquire 316.75 acres for the
12 benefit of the Department of Corrections. We have
13 speakers on that item. Svenn?
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is everybody speaking in favor
15 or in opposition?
16 MR. GREEN: This is in opposition then
17 followed by Ron Moss and Grace Francis.
18 MR. LINDSKOLD: Thank you. Governor and
19 Members, good morning. Thank you. I'm here not to
20 talk about prisons particularly, but to talk about
21 land --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. Just for our
23 edification and, at least, my edification, who are
24 you and representing what?
25 MR. LINDSKOLD: My name is Svenn Lindskold.
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1 I'm representing Save our Suwannee, Incorporated.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
3 MR. LINDSKOLD: We've been interested in this
4 property for quite a number of years, and we're
5 interested in it because of the quality of property
6 of the wet area of the property. Perhaps your
7 staff has shown you this illustration, but this is
8 the acreage right here that's being considered.
9 This is U.S. 90. Live Oak is over here, and
10 Wellborn is over here. This is a huge cypress
11 wetland with very mature huge trees. These are
12 isolated wetlands. This wetland area here is the
13 head borders of Rocky Creek which is a creek which
14 runs north from the property approximately 8 miles
15 to the Suwannee River, which, as you know, is a
16 troubled river in terms of pollution.
17 These down here indicate very wet isolated
18 wetlands. If you walk the property, most of the
19 character of the property is as a wet property.
20 That's really why we're here, because we feel that
21 it is a quality piece of property which shouldn't
22 be subjected to the intense use that is being
23 proposed by the Department of Corrections.
24 A prison in Suwannee County is not what we're
25 objecting to. What we're objecting to is the use
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1 of this particular land. One might wonder, given
2 the location of the land in the Suwannee River
3 Water Management District, why the Water Management
4 District hasn't taken steps to acquire this land.
5 I think the answer is -- I cannot speak for
6 them. I think the answer is that their policy so
7 far has been to acquire property in the floodplain
8 along the Suwannee and the Santa Fe River, and they
9 have shelved, for the time being, these kinds of
10 properties.
11 They now are taking action to acquire property
12 along Falling Creek, which is another tributary of
13 the Suwannee, and so perhaps they will soon take
14 interest in this. What I'm saying is that if this
15 is to be publicly-owned property, the best public
16 purpose of this would be in terms of wetland water
17 quality protection and so on.
18 The site plan that has been presented by DOC
19 is a second try at fitting an institution in on
20 this acreage. The first try had to be rejected
21 because of the destruction of wetlands and the
22 discovery that that destruction of wetlands could
23 not be mitigated within the Rocky Creek watershed
24 which is the requirement.
25 So they came back with a plan which reduces
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1 the size of the facility and reduces the emphasis
2 of the facility, and only they can talk about their
3 change in mission, if you will, for the facility.
4 This new plan, the second version, results in
5 very, very tight use of the property. Minimum
6 setbacks of 25 feet from the wet areas are
7 provided. Fences are provided; so we have the
8 little wet areas and the big wet areas all fenced
9 off like wild animals in a zoo, and it doesn't
10 leave any room for expansion. They just choke the
11 property.
12 (Attorney General Butterworth exits room.)
13 MR. LINDSKOLD: There's lots of vacant
14 property in Suwannee County, and it seems to land
15 on one of the most wet areas which has important
16 purposes in the Suwannee Basin. It's just an
17 inappropriate thing.
18 It's the wrong public message, and we would
19 urge that perhaps purchased for preservation be
20 more important than purchased for use for an
21 intense and a dense facility such as this one. The
22 neighboring areas immediately neighboring this
23 particular site are similarly wet.
24 There are many lakes in the area. There are
25 other creeks. The larger picture that you can make
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1 of the facility, the more wet areas are
2 encompassed; so once again, it would be fine for
3 Suwannee County to proceed on a Department of
4 Corrections' project, but they should not do it at
5 this particular site. Thanks for your attention.
6 Any questions?
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: We may have some questions
8 after we get the other speakers --
9 MR. LINDSKOLD: Thank you.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- unless you-all have
11 questions.
12 (No response.)
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
14 MR. GREEN: Governor, the next speaker, before
15 we take any of the rest of the opponents, I didn't
16 know we had the chairman of the Suwannee County
17 Commission here, Donald Odum.
18 MR. ODUM: Governor and the rest of the
19 Cabinet. Governor, I'm going to tell you the last
20 time I was here I called you Honorable Governor --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: They laughed.
22 MR. ODUM: -- and they laughed, so I'm saying
23 Governor this time and Cabinet.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I remember when you were here
25 last. It was another long day too.
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1 MR. ODUM: I'd like to say the Suwannee County
2 Commissioners are 100 percent behind this project,
3 and we do think we have a good spot for the project
4 and had very little opposition when we had the
5 meeting.
6 We need the jobs. You know farming is about a
7 thing in the past in Suwannee County. Former
8 Senator Charles Williams started this project in
9 about 1991 when he was a County Commissioner, and
10 we fully support this.
11 We think we have a good place, and we
12 appreciate anything you can do for us. Thank you.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, chairman.
14 (Secretary Harris exits room.)
15 MR. GREEN: Now, Mr. Moss.
16 MR. MOSS: Governor Bush, Members of the
17 Cabinet, my name is Ron Moss. I do reside in
18 Suwannee County. First, and for the record, I am
19 opposed to the construction of a state prison
20 facility in Suwannee County on this site of
21 reference, and quite frankly, I'm just a teeny bit
22 confused as to what we're going to end up
23 accomplishing here today relative to the DEP's
24 participation in funding the purchase of the site.
25 In other words, DEP, I guess, was to refund
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1 $156,000 to Suwannee County, and Suwannee County,
2 of course, went ahead and purchased the prison and
3 used $156,000 in unbudgeted funds for that project;
4 so I guess one of the objectives, as far as
5 Suwannee County is concerned, is to recover that
6 $156,000.
7 Quite frankly, I'm for that. Next, we're
8 talking about building a prison on a piece of land
9 that in my estimation is questionable
10 environmentally. In addition to that, I feel the
11 site -- the plan for the site has limitations as
12 far as expansion is concerned.
13 I think that's one of the things that DOC
14 should look at, is can they expand on the site
15 that's in place. Next, of major concern, I would
16 feel would be a labor force. In paying attention
17 to the ads that the local facilities generate
18 occasionally, there's a demand for labor to keep
19 the prisons that are in the area adequately
20 staffed.
21 If we add a prison in Suwannee County, well,
22 we're going to have lateral transfers, of course,
23 but as far as additional jobs in the county, most
24 of the folks, in my estimation, that are now --
25 that want to work for a prison are now working for
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1 one of the local facilities in the area; so I have
2 a feeling we would dry up some of the resources
3 from the other areas if we do build a facility
4 there.
5 Next, I'd like to, just to show you and make
6 reference to my continued objection to this
7 project, give you a little chronological order as
8 to some of the events that have taken place.
9 In January of '94, the Suwannee County Board
10 of Adjustments unanimously rejected the zoning
11 change on this property, rejected it. Then the
12 county commissioners, as they can do, came back and
13 overruled the decision. That was a 4-to-1 vote.
14 As time goes long, the Department of Community
15 Affairs, of course, was involved.
16 (Attorney General Butterworth enters room.)
17 MR. MOSS: The comp plan, according to them,
18 was in order. Then, at a given point like in June
19 of '95, a bunch of petitioners led by myself -- I
20 hired an attorney, Edmond Browning, over in
21 Madison, and we asked for an administrative
22 hearing.
23 (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)
24 MR. MOSS: Long story short, the Hearing
25 Officer ruled in favor of the plan change. There
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1 was an interesting article that surfaced in one of
2 the local papers relative to Suwannee River Water
3 Management District Report.
4 An engineer for water management made a
5 comment relative to this site: "The only way to
6 develop that site is to lower the water table which
7 is impractical." I think he still has his job.
8 In either case, to show you some of the
9 negatives that have surfaced from other areas, I
10 sent a fax over to the Cabinet aides -- I believe
11 it was Friday -- and I would like to share that
12 with you at the risk of being a little bit
13 redundant perhaps.
14 I wish to confirm to the Cabinet, citing as
15 the Board of Trustees of the Internal Improvement,
16 on my continued opposition to the location of the
17 prison facility to be operated by the DOC on lands
18 in Suwannee County, Florida, consisting of
19 approximately 316 acres located on the south side
20 of U.S. Highway 90, approximately 70 miles East of
21 the City of Live Oak.
22 I have consistently opposed the location of
23 this facility since 1993 when Suwannee County
24 entered into an option agreement to acquire the
25 property. My opposition is focused primarily on
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1 the particular location and not to the construction
2 of a correctional facility in Suwannee County.
3 I have made my objections known to the Board
4 of County Commissioners in Suwannee County and
5 attempted to present those facts which I thought
6 were relevant and significant in the site selection
7 process. Candidly, I believe that Board was
8 persuaded by certain erroneous factual assumptions,
9 but more importantly by the strong desire to create
10 job opportunities for the citizens of the county.
11 (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)
12 MR. MOSS: While I support the creation of
13 jobs in Suwannee County, I do not believe that
14 positive economic impact of such outweighs the
15 other considerations as to this location.
16 A number of other possible sites exist within
17 Suwannee County which would be more suitable and
18 less objectionable to surrounding property owners.
19 There are significant environmental issues with
20 respect to this particular site.
21 Persons more qualified to deal with this issue
22 should inform the Cabinet of these concerns.
23 Suffice it to say it is existing wetlands, as well
24 as the headwaters of the creek system that are
25 located on this property, and development of it
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1 will certainly have an impact on the environment.
2 My opposition to this site included a
3 challenge to the change in the comprehensive land
4 use plan with Suwannee County. My challenge
5 commenced in '94 when a plan amendment was adopted
6 and included a petition to the Department of
7 Community Affairs alleging that the plan was not in
8 compliance with the provisions of Florida law.
9 After hearings -- of course, we went through that.
10 At this hearing, the issue was raised before
11 the Board of County Commissioners that it had a
12 conflict of interest, as the purchaser from the
13 applicant, and could not rule impartially on the
14 issues presented.
15 The objection was ignored, and the County
16 proceeded to grant the special permit exception,
17 and thereafter closed on the purchase price of the
18 property; so gentlemen, that sums up my objection
19 to this. I have in the past, of course, objected
20 then and will continue to do so.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: We appreciate your comments.
22 MR. MOSS: Thank you very much for your time.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
24 MR. GREEN: Grace Francis.
25 MS. FRANCIS: Thank you, Governor, and Members
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1 of the Cabinet. My name is Grace Francis, and I'm
2 here speaking on behalf of Clean Water Network. We
3 are an organization that represents over 100
4 organizations across the state, and we want to
5 speak in opposition to this proposal.
6 We urge you to deny this prison from being
7 built at the headwaters of Rocky Creek. The site
8 endangers the surrounding wetlands, and Rocky Creek
9 is tributary of the Suwannee River. The Suwannee
10 river is an outstanding Florida waterway and is
11 already impaired for a number of reasons.
12 It is impaired for nutrients, dissolved
13 oxygen, coliforms and turbidity, and the
14 destruction of the wetlands at the headwaters of
15 Rocky Creek will further lower the water quality
16 downstream.
17 (Secretary Harris enters room.)
18 MS. FRANCIS: We urge the Department of
19 Corrections, and the County to find another site to
20 build a prison that would not have the detrimental
21 environmental impact that building on this site
22 would have. Thank you.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
24 MR. GREEN: Governor, we have staff from the
25 Department of Corrections, if you have questions of
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1 them, and additional people from the County if you
2 have other questions of the County.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. I'm sure we do have
4 questions. General.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: From my notes
6 here it says that the engineers from the Department
7 of Corrections assert that the wetlands will not be
8 impacted. Could somebody come up here and say
9 whether that's accurate or not, and if it is
10 accurate, why you say it is.
11 MR. PREVATT: Good morning, my name is Jimmy
12 Prevatt. I'm a private lawyer in Live Oak with the
13 firm, Sellers & Prevatt. I'm here on behalf of
14 Suwannee County this morning and with the
15 Department of Corrections.
16 With me is Don Esry. He's from the facilities
17 over there in DOC, and we can answer those
18 questions.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can the Department of
20 Environmental Protection also validate this?
21 MR. ESRY: I will address the environmental
22 issue. This is a colored map that we used at the
23 special use permitting process that the Department
24 went through with Mr. Prevatt last October. This
25 was the last part of the comprehensive plan
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1 process.
2 (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)
3 MR. ESRY: First, the County rezoned it. They
4 amended the comp plan. In rezoning this for public
5 use, they had a requirement for a public -- a
6 special use permit to be issued. This was the site
7 plan that was prepared and presented before several
8 hundred people in a middle school in Live Oak last
9 October.
10 These two blue areas are very nice wetlands
11 that are along Highway 90. This is being spoken of
12 as the headwater of Rocky Creek. Actually, this is
13 one of many headwaters. I've got some aerials that
14 I can show that will show this is just a small part
15 of one of the parts where Rocky Creek starts. We
16 have no construction within 100 feet of any of the
17 different wetlands on the property.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Those are wetlands that exist
19 in its natural state?
20 MR. ESRY: The rectangular ones are the ones
21 that we will make to treat the stormwater. The
22 irregular, round-shaped ones are the natural ones.
23 One of the things that was mentioned was that we
24 had to redesign the property. That is correct.
25 Once the Department of Environmental
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1 Protection and the Corps of Engineers did their
2 wetland surveys, there were more wetlands than we
3 anticipated what we envisioned there was on the
4 property.
5 We did a total redesign so we could stay out
6 of our wetlands. We had to have a
7 no-dredge-and-fill permit. This is a very
8 important thing. We're staying a minimum of 100
9 feet from all wetlands on the property.
10 It's been alleged there's no room for
11 expansion. That is not correct. The first phase
12 we will build will be this 1500-bed facility here.
13 We had to show everything that we wanted to ever do
14 on the property; so ultimately we can build another
15 1500-bed facility, and approximately a
16 250-to-280-bed work camp if we ever get some more
17 inmates that are such that we can put them in a
18 work camp.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: When is the construction of
20 the prison planned?
21 MR. ESRY: This is envisioned -- we're hoping
22 to -- or envisioning going to the Legislature for
23 the money to actually build this in the year 2002
24 or 3. Right now the Department does not have any
25 land in the system, virgin land that can be used
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1 for a prison.
2 This would be our only site to have counted.
3 Banked maybe is the right word to use; so that if
4 more inmates should suddenly start coming into the
5 system and we'd have to speed up the building
6 process, we'd have something to fall back on.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well. That's not completely
8 true in that, can't you expand existing facilities?
9 MR. ESRY: Yes, sir, but I don't have any
10 undeveloped virgin land. Sometimes the Legislature
11 wants us to build a new one, and sometimes they
12 want to expand an existing one.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
14 MR. ESRY: That's their wisdom, not mine, but
15 we don't have any other land that's vacant right
16 now.
17 MR. PREVATT: One of the questions was on the
18 design, whether the wetland areas would be fenced
19 in, and the areas will not be fenced. There is a
20 fence that would be designed to go around the
21 corrections facility itself located right here.
22 I think what they were concerned about was
23 whether or not there would be fencing across the
24 wetlands. There actually would be additional
25 fencing, which would be a 3 hog-wire -- 3 barbwire,
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1 hog-wire fence that would go around the exterior
2 right here.
3 Where the property is located in Suwannee
4 County is one of the least developed areas in the
5 county. We presented it at the land use hearing
6 and for the special use permit, all where the
7 building activity had been located in Suwannee
8 County in the last five years. This was the least
9 populous or building area.
10 You'll see all around these areas, if you look
11 at the aerial photographs here.
12 MR. ESRY: The property that we're proposing
13 to develop is in this black square. The wetlands
14 that are bogged are the headwaters, more or less,
15 of Rocky Creek of this little tributary here which
16 comes along.
17 Other tributaries are here. Here's one.
18 Here's some. There's lots that form up and end up
19 draining into Rocky Creek, and we're about 10 miles
20 from the Suwannee River. Our impact is very
21 minimal.
22 We have gone through the permitting process
23 with the Suwannee River Water Management District
24 to have the permits that we need. We've had to do
25 lots of studies. One of the very unusual things
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1 that the Water Managment District required us to do
2 was not only prove we were not going to increase
3 the runoff, which is usually the usual thing that
4 we have to address, but in this case, we had to
5 prove we were not going to decrease the runoff
6 either because they did not want us drying the
7 wetlands up.
8 That was difficult to prove, but we've been
9 through that process. The engineers did the
10 calculations. I'm satisfied we're not going to
11 impact the wetlands. We've proposed no filling.
12 No activity to take place in any of the wetland on
13 the property. We will not fence up the beavers
14 that might want to go under Highway 90.
15 MR. PREVATT: This particular area, the
16 320-acre site, the property to the east and to the
17 south of this piece are owned by timber companies
18 and other private individuals, about 3,000 acres
19 going around it that is undeveloped being used as a
20 hunting camp and just timber/pine land.
21 Again, why they wanted to have fencing on the
22 south side of the property right here is because it
23 is used as hunting property, and as you can
24 imagine, DOC people employees there are a little
25 uneasy whenever somebody steps out of the woods
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1 with a gun next to one of the facilities down here,
2 so that's all that would be down here, would be the
3 hog wire fence.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, it's a prison. By
5 definition, you're going to have fences. I think
6 you have to have -- I hope --
7 MR. ESRY: The big, bad fences are going to be
8 in the middle of the property right at the housing
9 areas, not out on the property line.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I understand,
11 Governor, from the director that the County did
12 have their comp plan amended, and it did go through
13 DCA.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Same county?
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Same county.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Someone had to appeal it.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes.
18 MR. ESRY: We looked at 16 sites throughout
19 the county, and all of them will end up draining
20 sooner or later in the Suwannee River. We felt
21 this was the best of the 16 sites that the County
22 made available to us.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there anybody from the
24 Department of Environmental Protection that could
25 answer the question about the headwater issue and
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1 the wetlands just to get it confirmed. No
2 disrespect to the Department of Corrections.
3 But, you know, we count on you guys to keep
4 the bad guys behind bars, and we count on the
5 Department of Environmental Protection to advise us
6 on these issues.
7 MR. GREEN: We haven't looked at that,
8 Governor. That permit is issued through the Water
9 Management District; so they would have handled the
10 wetland permits on that. We will look at other
11 permits, the wastewater permits, so we have not
12 verified --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: And from the Water Management
14 District, is anybody here?
15 MR. GREEN: No, sir.
16 MR. LINDSKOLD: Governor, I certainly am not
17 part of the Water Management District, but I did
18 sit in on the planning process.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Come up here if you're going
20 to speak, please, sir. Did they grant the permit,
21 or did they --
22 MR. LINDSKOLD: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes,
23 indeed, they granted the permit. They had limited
24 regulations. They could not consider secondary
25 impacts due to the nature of certain legal
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1 requirements, secondary impacts, meaning not direct
2 effluent going into the wetlands.
3 It was a very difficult permit for them to
4 work on. They worked very extensively on this, and
5 to say that this is the only available site they
6 have, which is one of the lowest, wettest and
7 so-forth sites in the county, is -- I find that
8 kind of ingenious.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Kirby?
10 MR. GREEN: Yes, sir.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: As I understand it, this
12 property, the design of the prison was modified to
13 meet the needs to accommodate the concerns of the
14 wetlands; is that right?
15 MR. GREEN: That's our understanding, yes,
16 sir. They've backed off from the wetlands 100 feet
17 from all of them on the site.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I have a question for
19 the Department of Corrections custody gentlemen.
20 Did I understand you to say that there's no
21 requirement for these beds, and there is no money
22 to build them?
23 MR. ESRY: At this time, that's correct.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No requirement and no
25 money?
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1 MR. ESRY: Yes, sir. When we began this
2 process in 1993, we were in a real crunch to build
3 then.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand, but as we
5 stand here right now, there is no requirement and
6 no money. I think it was Mr. Moss -- I might not
7 have the gentleman's name correct. He made a
8 statement in reference to a $156,000 refund. I
9 would like you to clarify that for me.
10 MR. MOSS: I'm sure that the chairman could
11 give you a little more detail on that. I think I
12 do have the figures with me, but the total purchase
13 price was like $336,000, total price.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: This is not a refund,
15 per se, but a contribution by the State for
16 purchase.
17 MR. MOSS: Yes.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Fine. So no
19 requirement and no money.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, the refund is an issue
21 because if we don't approve this, I'm sure the
22 County can come and say, the State needs to
23 purchase this land and get them off the hook.
24 MR. ESRY: General Milligan, we do have the
25 money appropriated by the Legislture for this
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1 $156,000 that we've agreed to give to the County
2 assuming your approval, and the building of the
3 construction of the prison is in our five-year plan
4 that's been submitted to the Legislature, so I
5 don't need to --
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So your statement that
7 there's no requirement and there is no money is not
8 totally correct. There is a requirement?
9 MR. ESRY: Within the five year plan that
10 we're working with, yes, sir.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: But you haven't answered
12 the -- there is no, right now, thankfully -- this
13 is a paid political announcement. The number of
14 prisoners is basically stable. There are plans to
15 expand the prison system through expanding on
16 existing facilities to meet kind of temporary
17 needs, but having said that, it is appropriate for
18 any state agency to plan for increased demands and
19 the projections are for the next five years to see
20 increases.
21 I somewhat disagree with the estimating
22 conference of the prison population because it's a
23 static analysis. It does not take into
24 consideration tough crime laws being passed to act
25 as a deterrent.
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1 Having said that, there is a projection for an
2 increased numbers of prisoners over the next five
3 years; so they have to plan for it. I think that's
4 appropriate.
5 MR. ESRY: And that's what we're trying to do.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions? Is there
7 a motion on Item 7?
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'll move it.
9 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's moved and seconded. All
11 in favor say, aye.
12 (Affirmative response.)
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No.
16 TREASURER NELSON: No.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's see, Gallagher's left,
18 so it's a 3-3 vote which means it does not pass.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Maybe if we can
20 get something from DEP it might help us with our
21 votes. You know, I think, water management
22 district did the study. No one is here from there,
23 and DEP is not refuting it. We would have a much
24 better comfort level if DEP did a review of this.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It's not really
2 a burning issue that we have to do it today.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: No, because our policy, as it
4 relates to crime, is working today
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll move deferral.
6 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to defer and
8 a second. All in favor say, aye.
9 (Affirmative response.)
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
11 (No response.)
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: We will defer to the next --
13 in two weeks. Thank you-all.
14 MR. GREEN: Item 8 is --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Make sure our friends from
16 Suwannee County and surrounding areas -- be back
17 with us again.
18 MR. GREEN: Yes. Item 8 is approval of a
19 purchase agreement to acquire 6,156 acres. To
20 bring you up to date, this was the parcel that had
21 a request for reservation of 865 acres for a
22 not-for-profit corporation called Noah's Ark.
23 They've withdrawn their request for assignment on
24 this site.
25 Also, just to give you some assurances that if
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1 there was an assignment of a portion of this
2 property to any other person, that would have to
3 come back to the Board for approval of the
4 assignment before we made it.
5 The only exception to that is the Department
6 of Transportation assignment which is already
7 addressed in the contract and in the item.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Any
12 discussion?
13 (No response.)
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it is
15 approved.
16 MR. GREEN: Item 9 is approval of
17 authorization to acquire 100 percent interest in
18 51.48 (sic) acres in the Indian Lagoon Blueway.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
23 objection, it's approved.
24 MR. GREEN: Governor, the next two items have
25 to do with the East Everglades Project. Before we
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1 take up either one of those items, we would like to
2 give you a brief presentation by Jim Jackson, with
3 the Water Management District, to explain how those
4 projects are integral to the Everglades project.
5 MR. JACKSON: Good morning. My purpose is
6 twofold, first, to give you information on the
7 broad role or the importance of the East Coast
8 Buffer/East Everglades parcels to the Comprehensive
9 Everglades Restoration Plan.
10 Secondly, to give you more specifics on the
11 parcels on you're agenda items today, Numbers 10
12 and 11. This is showing the property in green that
13 was part of the original East Everglades CARL
14 project, and then in yellow, the East Coast Buffer
15 that was added to that based upon analysis by our
16 agency in 1994 and 1995.
17 In addition to what's on the screen, I also
18 brought two large satellite photographs --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Bring it up so it's a little
20 bit easier to see.
21 MR. JACKSON: Okay. There's also one that's
22 over there for the audience to look at as well.
23 The value of these is to show both in yellow the --
24 (displaying photographs to Cabinet) --
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead.
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1 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Governor. Both, in
2 terms of the slide that's here as well as the two
3 satellite images, what you can see is the intense
4 development that's occurred within South Florida,
5 especially the delineation point being right along
6 the East Coast Protective Levee that was built 50
7 years ago by the Corps of Engineers, a separation
8 between the Everglades system and the areas that
9 could be developed in the future.
10 The one you have in front of you, the
11 satellite image, is a little more detailed in
12 image. It also shows you the full East Coast
13 Buffer project. Those lands we already own were
14 not made part of the CARL portion of that, but
15 that's what we're looking at for that.
16 That's the intent I had for that particular
17 photograph -- for the satellite image. If you want
18 it to stay there, you can. That's all I had
19 intended to use that. What this slide is showing
20 you is how close development is occurring to the
21 levee.
22 That's the conservation area. That right
23 there is the levee. This is the Sawgrass
24 Expressway. When we began this analysis in
25 1994/1995, that was still vacant land. It is now,
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1 as you can see, full of development within that.
2 There is tremendous competition for
3 development for the project we're doing. There are
4 a number of components in the Comprehensive
5 Everglades Restoration Plan. What I want to focus
6 on is the East Coast Buffer.
7 When the levee was put in by the Corps of
8 Engineers 50 years ago, it did what it was intended
9 to do, which is to separate the water conservation
10 areas from the land to the east. At it's most
11 simplistic level, the design was to put this levee
12 in from Palm Beach County down to Miami-Dade
13 County.
14 That was a series of canals that would go east
15 to west that would drain water into the
16 intracoastal waterway. That had the land that was
17 developable for subdivisions, for cities, for
18 agriculture, and for other uses.
19 The cost of that is that you have water loss
20 between the higher levels being kept in the
21 conservation areas and the lands to the east. In
22 some areas such as west of Boca Raton, you've got a
23 10-foot differential between the water levels from
24 the conservation area and what you have in
25 developed land.
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1 There's tremendous seepage loss through the
2 levee water out of the system. In addition to
3 that, the entire canal system basically, with one
4 exception, all discharges to the coast. The heart
5 of what we're after, at this point, is to establish
6 a series of interconnected marshes, groundwater,
7 recharge areas, above-ground impoundments,
8 reservoirs and water treatment areas that do a
9 variety of purposes.
10 One critical role of that is to help reduce
11 seepage by having a series of step-downs, in this
12 particular new area, using water that's currently
13 lost to tide. What we'd be establishing -- using
14 the map that's over on the wall -- would be a
15 series of controlled structures in the canals
16 between the levee and the coast, and having the
17 water from the western portions, back-pumped, not
18 into the conservation areas, but into these initial
19 East Coast Buffer water preserve areas.
20 They'd be pumped into above-ground
21 impoundments and to reservoirs and to marshes. By
22 doing that, it will help reduce the seepage loss
23 into the system.
24 TREASURER NELSON: I'd ask where are those
25 buffer areas on this map? Would you show me?
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1 MR. JACKSON: The areas that are in yellow on
2 this are those -- is the East Coast Buffer project.
3 Those are the lands we're talking about.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Put your red dot on
5 there again.
6 MR. JACKSON: Okay. This is in Palm Beach
7 County --
8 TREASURER NELSON: Right.
9 MR. JACKSON: Moving down, this is the Boca
10 Raton area, west of it. This is the Sawgrass
11 Expressway here. This is Broward County along this
12 stretch.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Right.
14 MR. JACKSON: From here down, your Miami-Dade
15 County. This is Krome Avenue. Then south of that
16 is -- I have individual slides in a second that
17 will provide more detail to that point.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Okay.
19 MR. JACKSON: But my point, on the next slide
20 on the screen, is that the work that we've done
21 with the East Coast Buffer has been incorporated in
22 the work that we've been doing with the Corps of
23 Engineers on the overall Everglades Restoration
24 program.
25 This we refer to as Restudy, the direction
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1 from the corps -- from the Congress to the corps to
2 restudy the entire plumbing system in South Florida
3 to better reflect its overall purpose, referring to
4 it now as the Comprehensive Everglades Restoration
5 Plan.
6 There are 68 individual components within the
7 overall plan. About a dozen or so fit into the
8 East Coast Buffer and how we're using those
9 particular parts to that. The next six slides show
10 county by county the components we're talking about
11 and how we're moving ahead with land acquisition.
12 Commissioners, what we looked at before,
13 beginning in Palm Beach County here, this the
14 wetland at the northernmost portion of it,
15 agricultural reservoir in Palm Beach County, which
16 is to provide water for urban uses and agricultural
17 uses in the middle portion of the county.
18 Then towards the south, the Hillsborough
19 impoundment, which will be created just on the
20 Hillsborough canal which will provide water for
21 aquifer for storage -- I'm sorry, for aquifer
22 storage recovery as well as for aquifer recharge
23 for well fields.
24 As I showed you in the beginning, there has
25 been tremendous pressure for competition of land
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1 uses. We've been working very aggressively on a
2 number of fronts to acquire the property. What
3 this slide is showing you are the properties that
4 are shown in green are the ones we have acquired
5 and closed on at present.
6 Then the two that are in turquoise right there
7 (indicating) are ones we've recently agreed to
8 purchase and are now moving ahead in partnership
9 with one of those in Palm Beach County. We are
10 moving ahead on a series of fronts for that to
11 acquire the properties. The ones that are in
12 yellow are still to be acquired.
13 In Broward County, we're looking at two
14 above-ground impoundments within the treatment
15 areas and then a series of wetlands that we're
16 incorporating as part of the overall system that
17 will both expand part of the Everglades, but also
18 serve to reduce seepage.
19 We'll get to cost in a second. Within Broward
20 County, we have been able to acquire over 7,700
21 acres to date at a total cost of $91,000,000 for
22 these particular properties. We are aggressively
23 working right now to acquire the main property in
24 the wetland area for this C-11 impoundment.
25 (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)
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1 MR. JACKSON: In Miami-Dade County, we're
2 doing several things. About half of the East Coast
3 Buffer properties was in Miami-Dade County. We're
4 looking to work with the rock mining industry over
5 the next several decades and to use the mines after
6 they have been quarried for in-ground reservoirs.
7 We will need to provide treatment technology
8 around them to protect the water within that
9 containment, but we're looking to use the land with
10 them. The property should be above ground here at
11 North Lake Belt storage area.
12 Another reservoir will be the Central Lake
13 Belt storage area, and then the far western part of
14 the Pennsuco wetlands. To date, we've acquired
15 5400 acres at a cost of over $32.8 million.
16 Now, this again is a reference for you
17 (indicating). This is the turnpike extension down
18 to here. This is the Broward County/Miami-Dade
19 County border. This is Krome Avenue along here,
20 and this is U.S. 441, Tamiami Trail.
21 One of the parcels is right there
22 (indicating). The other parcels are down in that
23 area. There was discussion on one of your previous
24 agenda items referred to as Wayne's World or
25 Blockbuster Park.
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1 That's located in this proposed area in
2 general, and the Miccosukee Bingo Hall was also
3 referenced right down there (indicating). Agenda
4 Item 10 is one that was deferred from last month.
5 It's referred to as the Martinez tract.
6 This is an aerial photograph of it. As you
7 can see, it has extensive road frontage on U.S. 27.
8 It is one large particular parcel. In the distance
9 you can see the rock mining that's occurring. It's
10 also planned to be occurring over there
11 (indicating).
12 The intent would be to connect to that and to
13 have a treatment area for the water. I'll discuss
14 that more in a second. This is the Miami River
15 Canal. This is one of the lakes that's south of
16 it.
17 This is a schematic view for that. I want to
18 point out two aspects again, the storage area, the
19 in-ground reservoir. This is the particular shape,
20 the design. We're now working to refine that image
21 for that.
22 There's a series of treatment areas around it.
23 These were chosen to have the least intrusion on
24 existing uses that were in the property. We're
25 trying not to impose upon the existing rural houses
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1 in that particular area for that.
2 Again, the need for this particular portion of
3 it in here, which the district owns part of it, and
4 the State owns a part, for a treatment area and as
5 part of the reservoir for that. Now, the water
6 storage area will provide water for the well fields
7 in Miami-Dade County, provide a way of maintaining
8 the canals at the current level to prevent
9 saltwater intrusion, and also to provide water to
10 Biscayne Bay to meet salinity targets for the
11 health of the Bay.
12 The water treatment areas, which is how we
13 could use the Martinez property, are critical to
14 providing water quality after it comes out of the
15 reservoir and prior to going into the canal
16 network.
17 The other parcels, which are Agenda Item
18 Number 11, are in this area (indicating). This is
19 a 4-square-mile area that we intend to have as a
20 wetland and recharge area. Directly south of this,
21 Miami-Dade County has their west well fields.
22 This would provide groundwater recharge to
23 help replenish the well fields as well as to
24 provide a way of providing peak continuation for
25 flood control purposes, i.e., a place to store
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1 water during heavy events.
2 Throughout all the work we're doing in this
3 effort, what we're trying to do is under an overall
4 umbrella of getting the water corrected, getting
5 the water right, being able to provide the right
6 amount of water at the right location, at the right
7 quality, at the right timing.
8 Thank you very much.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just so we know exactly
10 how this piece of property fits in, would you go
11 back a slide?
12 MR. JACKSON: (Complying.)
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: In the lower right-hand
14 corner, that grayish area, which is part of your --
15 MR. JACKSON: Right there?
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. Now, the Martinez
17 property is basically about where the head of the
18 arrow is to the left?
19 MR. JACKSON: Yes.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And the other property
21 is yet to be acquired?
22 MR. JACKSON: Correct.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And the critical piece
24 of that property are your drainage fields or
25 whatever you call them or whatever that says -- I
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1 can't read it -- is really yet to be acquired?
2 MR. JACKSON: Correct.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you?
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: The rest -- just in general,
5 the East Coast Buffer property, this is zoned for
6 mining use; therefore, I guess we can take it this
7 isn't -- maybe this is someone else's question to
8 answer, but how much of this property is zoned for
9 something that will up the price?
10 Have we made an assessment of all the
11 purchasing we have to do, an accurate assessment,
12 of the total cost of this? Are we competing with
13 ourselves again, which seems to be, at least in my
14 humble opinion, what we end up doing since we're
15 the sole buyer of this property.
16 Do we raise the price by purchasing
17 incrementally, and just because we were the seller
18 and you were the purchaser of one property, then
19 jacking up the price of the next one and kind of
20 moving -- if we move forward, do we raise
21 valuations?
22 MR. JACKSON: Let me address a couple of the
23 comments. I've had the pleasure of being at a
24 couple of southern workshops in Miami-Dade County
25 at night, and the comments from a number of the
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1 people who own property there is the reverse.
2 They're accusing us of keeping the prices down
3 low in our acquisition for that. This is just an
4 observation. Secondly, I mentioned to you before
5 that the portion that was within Miami-Dade County,
6 there was some rock mining occurring.
7 That entire area is nicknamed the "Lake Belt
8 Area." The Legislature established a committee to
9 work out a master plan for that. The committee did
10 the phase one portion of that plan which identified
11 those areas that were suitable for mining and those
12 areas that were not.
13 Using the map on the wall, the Pennsuco
14 wetland and the area south of it where the recharge
15 would be, which is Agenda Item 11 parcels, those
16 were determined not appropriate for mining and more
17 appropriate for mitigation and water management
18 purposes. The other properties --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are they zoned for mining?
20 Can they use them for mining?
21 MR. JACKSON: They have a land use, one for
22 Pennsuco, and, no they cannot. Okay. That doesn't
23 necessarily stop somebody from applying for a
24 permit. There's a long-standing court case we're
25 trying to resolve.
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1 The property to the east, which is the
2 majority of the land in Miami-Dade County and the
3 East Coast Buffer, does have a land use of
4 agriculture. It would allow one house per 5 acres,
5 and it would allow them to have rock mining in the
6 property.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: So you think you guys --
8 contrary to my opinion, you think you're
9 suppressing pricing?
10 MR. JACKSON: What I was reporting to you is
11 what we have been accused of. I do not believe we
12 are suppressing the price. I don't believe we are
13 increasing the price for that. We have other staff
14 here that can talk about more specific points.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have a budget on the
16 total purchase of all this property? Have you made
17 a -- have you done a run that makes the
18 determination of what your estimation of the total
19 cost is?
20 MR. JACKSON: In terms of the properties we
21 need that are within the Comprehensive Everglades
22 Restoration Plan, yes.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: The green stuff there, what's
24 the price?
25 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. I need to get back
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1 to you on that one, sir.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. General, do you have
3 any other comments?
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Not right now. We've
5 got some more people, I guess, that want to --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that true, or is this the
7 end of it?
8 MR. LITTLEJOHN: Blair Littlejohn with the
9 South Florida Water Management District. I was
10 going to give you the per-acre prices that are what
11 we are seeing as the going rate in the three
12 counties.
13 In Palm Beach County, we're seeing about 36 to
14 38,000 dollars per acre. In Broward, between 35 to
15 40,000 dollars per acre. In Dade and the Pennsuco
16 area, somewhere between 3 and 6,000 dollars per
17 acre, and outside the Pensuce, somewhere between 20
18 and 30,000 dollars per acre.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I presume Item 11 is in
20 the Pennsuco area; is that right.
21 MR. JACKSON: It's south of it.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It's in the higher
23 price. It's interesting, we have to ask, Items 10
24 and 11, one that is approximately $8,000 an acre
25 and another one that's approximately $23,000 an
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1 acre, and they're not terribly distant in their
2 relationship.
3 They're certainly equivalent in their
4 function, and perhaps in many respects, Item 11 is
5 more appropriate in terms of the critical view as
6 far as the water treatment area. Why the huge
7 variance?
8 MR. DAW: Ken Daw with the South Florida Water
9 Management District, chief appraiser. The
10 difference between Martinez and Item 11 would be
11 use potential. The Martinez tract is in an area of
12 rural residential development development just to
13 the northwest.
14 It would be suitable for the Martinez tract.
15 The comparable sales that were used to value
16 Martinez were in the same general area which is
17 physically -- there is physical characteristics
18 that differentiate that tract from Item 11.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It is zoned
20 agriculture?
21 MR. DAW: Yes.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So technically it's a
23 zoning change to drive it up to the high value.
24 MR. DAW: Well, that's what -- the current
25 comparable sales were also zoned agriculture. They
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1 had the same land use designation as open lands; so
2 we were comparing apples to apples there.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We're buying that land,
4 right?
5 MR. DAW: Correct.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The water management
7 district is buying it?
8 MR. DAW: Correct.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We're paying for it.
10 Okay.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. Kirby, any
12 other --
13 MR. GREEN: No, sir. That completes the
14 speakers.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're on Item 10.
16 MR. DAW: Excuse me. A point of
17 clarification, the comparable sales that were used
18 in the valuation of the Martinez sales were private
19 sector sales. They were not government purchases.
20 MR. GREEN: Item 10, approval of authorization
21 to acquire 100 percent interest in 81.99 acres in
22 the East Everglades CARL project.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I will have to say, I'm
24 not going to vote for it, Governor, as a prelude to
25 my vote, and I'm not going to vote for it primarily
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1 because I am not convinced that that small piece of
2 property, that triangle, is that critical when you
3 look at the adjacent lands, which we haven't bought
4 yet, and we're going to pay through the nose to
5 acquire.
6 I would rather not buy this piece of property
7 at this time, and let's see see what we can do on
8 some of the other more critical pieces that are
9 right adjacent to it.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments?
11 (No response.)
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
13 (No response.)
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: No motion?
15 (No response.)
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's no motion. Okay.
17 (Treasurer Nelson exits room.)
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 11, there's no -- I
19 assume when you don't have a motion, that means
20 this thing is dead.
21 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 11 is
22 authorization to acquire 100 percent interest in 40
23 acres within the East Everglades CARL project.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll move Item 11.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Any
2 discussion?
3 (No response.)
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Without hearing any, it's
5 approved. It is approved unanimously.
6 MR. GREEN: Governor, may I go back to Item 8
7 for just a second?
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
9 MR. GREEN: When Noah's Ark withdrew their
10 request to participate in the purchase, we also had
11 a statement in the item that we were going to use
12 less restrictive dollars to purchase that land in
13 case they could raise the money to purchase it from
14 us.
15 With them being out of the picture now, we can
16 use P2000 dollars to purchase those lands and put
17 them in conservation mode; so we would like to
18 change the contract to indicate that we were going
19 to use P2000 dollars to purchase those lands that
20 we had reserved for Noah's Ark.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you need any --
22 MR. GREEN: No, sir. I just needed to clarify
23 that that's what we wanted to do.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's understood.
25 MR. GREEN: Thank you, sir.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
2 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
3 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education?
2 MR. PIERSON: We have a group of charter
3 schools that have applied for our oversight and
4 view, and the first one, Item 1, has been
5 withdrawn; so we don't need to take that one up.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good. Can either you or
7 the Commissioner, can you give us an outline of
8 what our responsibilities are?
9 MR. PIERSON: It's something I will do.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
11 MR. PIERSON: The State Board of Education
12 considers appeals of denials of charter school
13 applications pursuant to 96-186, Laws of Florida.
14 As prescribed by law, Florida school boards are to
15 be given authority to grant the privilege to
16 applicants who wish to operate charter schools
17 within a district.
18 A further provision of the law allows an
19 applicant who has been denied a charter the right
20 to appeal the school board's decision to the State
21 Board of Education. Based on the written record
22 and oral argument presented at this meeting, the
23 State Board must vote to recommend acceptance or
24 rejection of the appeal to the school board.
25 The vote requires a simple majority of the
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1 members and by law, is not subject to the
2 provisions of the Administrative Procedures Act.
3 The rule governing the appeal process was
4 unanimously adopted by the Cabinet sitting as the
5 Stated Board of Education on December 10th, 1996.
6 It very clearly states how this hearing must
7 proceed. And it specifies the following
8 limitations which must be respected by the
9 applicant, the district school board and the
10 representatives.
11 The notice of appeal must be based on errors
12 the applicant charges the school board made in its
13 decisions to deny the charter. The written
14 arguments submitted by the applicant to the state
15 board is limited to the discussion of those errors.
16 The record of this proceeding is limited to
17 the written arguments, the charter school
18 application itself, the transcripts of meetings
19 before the district school board. At this hearing,
20 representatives of each party may give oral
21 argument.
22 Oral argument is limited to a summary of the
23 written arguments previously submitted to the state
24 board. Each side has been asked to limit its
25 summary presentation to 10 minutes. After the
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1 summaries are presented, votes taken, and a written
2 recommendation of the vote will be returned to the
3 district school board.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions?
5 (No response.)
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Onward to Item 2.
7 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is Greater Jacksonville
8 Area Charter School of Development and Academic
9 Excellence, Incorporated versus the Duval County
10 School Board. Representing the Jacksonville Area
11 Charter School is Albert Simpson.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Can you limit the time
13 allotment here?
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Normally it's 10
15 minutes per side. If anybody would like to go
16 longer, the rule certainly allows it.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're not encouraging that,
18 are we, Commissioner?
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No. That's why --
20 MR. PIERSON: We've limited them to 10
21 minutes.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's begin.
23 REVEREND SIMPSON: Excuse me. Mr. Governor,
24 before we get started, we do have a copy of our
25 script, if we could provide that for you and the
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1 Cabinet, we certainly would appreciate it.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Go ahead and proceed,
4 please.
5 (Treasurer Nelson enters room.)
6 REVEREND SIMPSON: To the Honorable Governor
7 and distinguished Cabinet Members, at this time, I
8 would like to take the privilege and opportunity to
9 introduce the Greater Jacksonville Area Charter
10 School's founder and the governance board chair.
11 Reverend Evans, Rene Evans, he's a pastor and
12 also one of the founders of the Greater
13 Jacksonville Area Charter School. Ms. Brenda Ford,
14 she's the chair of the governance board of the
15 Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School, and Ms.
16 Ed Lasster, who is also a founder and also who
17 served in a capacity to work for the Greater
18 Jacksonville Area Charter School, and also Mr.
19 Wells, Michale T. Wells, who is also a founder of
20 the Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School.
21 Honorable Governor and distinguished Cabinet
22 Members, our great State passed charter school
23 legislation, Section 228.056 and Section 228.0561
24 to give not-for-profit organizations opportunity to
25 create and design their community's educational
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1 need with freedom and choice for every parent and
2 their children.
3 Thank you, Mr. Governor, for your courage and
4 compassion to embrace and support education reform
5 and accountability at every level of our
6 educational system so no child will be left behind.
7 We are before you and the Cabinet today to ask you
8 and the Cabinet to support our cause to have the
9 freedom and opportunity to implement our academic
10 design governance and management model, facility
11 finance model, and total operation of an
12 independent public school, a parental choice to
13 help the targeted student population that's in need
14 of this kind of academic design.
15 We are not before you today to fight over FTE
16 dollars with our local school district, but we are
17 here, Mr. Governor and Cabinet, to help children
18 who are failing in our school district. We have
19 six charter schools with a waiting list of students
20 for enrollment.
21 We also have 2980 students being home
22 schooled, and parents are moving to surrounding
23 counties such as St. Johns and Clay to enroll their
24 children to their school. A large number of
25 students are enrolled in private schools.
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1 Eighty-two percent of students' enrollment in
2 Florida Community College of Jacksonville have to
3 remediate. These charter school applicants are
4 before you today to help the parents and students
5 in their school districts.
6 We have over 125,000 students in our school
7 district with a cap of 28 charter schools. These
8 applicants have strong governance structures that
9 according to charter school legislation, Section
10 231.15 and Section 231.17, certified teachers and
11 noncertified employees like any other public
12 school, and Sections 236 and 237, financing and
13 taxation, and public school expenditures with the
14 ability to hire certified CPAs and accountants.
15 Mr. Governor and Cabinet Members, our local
16 school district have very effectively used the
17 failure of the Impact Academy Charter School
18 operator as an instrument to discourage and destroy
19 the charter school movement concept.
20 One failure does not mean that charter schools
21 don't work. It simply means that the system is
22 working. If we experience a climbing enrollment, a
23 poor academic performance, a fiscal management
24 problem, this school district can shut us down, and
25 their conventional schools can be fixed by them and
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1 continue to operate.
2 Thank you, sir. If we have a minute --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: You do.
4 REVEREND SIMPSON: Could I present to you
5 Reverend Pastor Rene Evans.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Reverend, we welcome you.
7 MR. MUELLER: Mr. Governor, they have more
8 than one speaker. I think the rule provides for
9 only one speaker, do they not, for each school? In
10 other words, are we going to give testimony here,
11 argument or what?
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who are you?
13 MR. MUELLER: Me? I'm -- excuse me. My name
14 is Ernest Mueller. I'm the lawyer for Duval County
15 School Board.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: You'll get a chance to speak.
17 Don't worry. Ten minutes for each side.
18 MR. MUELLER: Well, my question is, may I call
19 additional parties to --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've got 10 minutes. You've
21 got 10 minutes to do whatever you want. It'll work
22 out. These people have come -- if you need more
23 time, we'll do it. Look, this is an important
24 issue, and people have traveled.
25 You've traveled from Jacksonville and so have
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1 these people. I think everybody deserves a chance
2 to speak. If we stay till 10 at night, we will.
3 There's no rules about this. All right?
4 Pastor, welcome.
5 REVEREND EVANS: Thank you so much, Mr.
6 Governor and this Cabinet. I would just like to
7 say that I come from a very large family, seven
8 brothers and six sisters, and out of all of my
9 mother's children, I failed to learn to read in the
10 early '80s.
11 Being in school in the eighth and ninth grade
12 and can't read, it's very difficult, but I was
13 fortunate that I learned how to read at a late age.
14 Becoming pastor and being in the ministry over 25
15 years and pastoring 4 years, I've dedicated myself
16 to help our children learn how to read and get an
17 education in these times that we live.
18 I'm so happy that, understanding where you're
19 coming from, being diverse in education, the
20 Greater Jacksonville needs an opportunity to help
21 our children to get an education. We've been
22 fortunate to go into the school in our district,
23 Northwestern School, for three years.
24 We have seen, hat on hand, the difficulty that
25 our children are having with background, all kinds
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1 of backgrounds. Our desire is to go in with
2 determination to help these children read. We
3 certainly have the ability at our church to learn
4 how, and know how to hire CPAs and teachers, and do
5 all that's necessary to make this work.
6 We're here to appeal that this Governor and
7 this board give us an opportunity that we need in
8 spite of what's been going on in the past. Give us
9 the opportunity to make sure that our children in
10 our district -- they're asking us to please help
11 them. We thank you very much.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Pastor.
13 MS. FORD: Good afternoon. My name is Brenda
14 Ford. I represent the chairperson for the
15 governance board for Greater Jacksonville Area
16 Charter School. What we wanted to clear up with
17 the board was that one of the issues was that we
18 did not have a governing board for our school.
19 It has been an initial group of people that
20 was submitted with our initial applications that we
21 do have a governing board for this particular
22 school. I chair that group along with five others.
23 That gives us a total of six people.
24 Our desire is to carry out the vision and the
25 missions for this school. We do have articles that
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1 we will be governed by to rule with this school.
2 We will apply every section of that rule, those
3 articles, and the law to make sure that our school
4 is governed in the way that it should be.
5 The only thing that we're asking for is that
6 you will give us the opportunity, as we have
7 presented our application, to carry out the vision
8 and the mission for this particular school, the
9 Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School. Thank
10 you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. You're
12 just a little over a minute inside the 10 minutes.
13 REVEREND SIMPSON: Governor, we'll be very
14 brief. Thank you, sir, for your time and your
15 Cabinet's. We'll be standing here for any
16 questions or whenever you need to call us back.
17 Thank you, sir.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: We will have questions.
19 REVEREND SIMPSON: Thank you, sir.
20 MR. PIERSON: For the Duval County School
21 Board, we have Attorney Ernst Mueller and Karen
22 Chastain.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
24 MR. MUELLER: Thank you.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: They did that in 10 minutes,
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1 believe it or not.
2 MR. MUELLER: They sure did. They were good.
3 Governor and Members of the Board, my name is Ernst
4 Mueller. I'm an attorney representing the Duval
5 County School Board. We've got several people from
6 Duval County here with us.
7 I just want to briefly introduce them. First,
8 Gwen Gibson, a board member. Ms. Gibson, if you
9 could stand.
10 MS. GIBSON: (Complying.)
11 MR. MUELLER: Next to her on the left, Linda
12 Sparks, also a member of the school board. Sitting
13 to Ms. Gibson's right is Vicky Reynolds, a member
14 of the Duval County School Board staff, and in the
15 front row over there is Ms. Chastain who will be
16 arguing two of these appeals on our behalf.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: We welcome you.
18 MR. MUELLER: Let me mention, at the outset,
19 in Duval County, we have six charter schools
20 functioning already, four more that are on-line.
21 On the particular day, February 23rd, that these
22 four schools were turned down, two charters were
23 approved, and there are two before that are about
24 to go on-line likely this year.
25 We did have one initial charter school prior
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1 to that, Impact Academy. Impact Academy was our
2 only high school charter. It had operated since
3 last August. January 11th of this year it came to
4 a screeching halt.
5 It was over a million dollars in debt.
6 Financially it was in chaos, and that particular
7 event served to influence board action and
8 attention to the charters in a manner that resulted
9 in more careful scrutiny and examination than
10 perhaps had happened in the past.
11 The principal reason that the board rejected
12 the application of this charter, Greater
13 Jacksonville, relates to the Impact Academy matter.
14 The key figure in the organization of Greater Jax
15 was an individual named Eddie Lasster. Eddie
16 Lasster was one of the organizing directors.
17 She's one of the three incorporators. She was
18 one of the initial directors, and she was about to
19 be the executive director of the school. That is
20 all reflected in the corporate documents and the
21 submissions of the charter school.
22 Now, Eddy Lasster had been the chairman, the
23 chairperson, of Impact Academy for a number of
24 months through October of the prior year. The
25 Impact Academy debacle happened about 30 days, a
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1 little over 30 days or 40 days before this matter
2 was considered.
3 The board did not feel it could approve a
4 charter school that had, as its key organizer and
5 chief executive, an individual who had just been a
6 significant part of the Impact failure and
7 certainly not without an objective outside report
8 or investigation on what had happened there, which
9 looked at her role, whatever it had been.
10 That, of course, had not been completed at the
11 time. This particular problem was compounded
12 somewhat by what we feel was an effort to conceal
13 or deny that Lasster was, in fact, a director.
14 Lasster denied it on page 1 of the transcript,
15 which is Exhibit E attached to the documents, our
16 brief, that you have in front of you.
17 Mrs. Ford denied it at page 9, and this lack
18 of candor was clearly contradicted by simple
19 examination of the articles of incorporation; so
20 the board really was in a position where it could
21 virtually only disapprove on that basis, and to do
22 otherwise would have been reckless under the
23 circumstances.
24 Let me tell you, this board is concerned that
25 charter schools will get a bad name through
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1 failures of this sort and wants to make darn sure
2 we never have it happen again in Duval County.
3 There were a couple of other reasons that were
4 mentioned and discussed by the board members.
5 There was some flaws in the budget that were
6 pointed out. The figure allocated for salaries was
7 grossly insufficient. That was enough to pay the
8 teachers, but nobody else, and there were about
9 seven or eight other people in the staff.
10 There was no explicit budget item for a
11 facility. There was just a line item called,
12 "capital equipment institutional," line, which was
13 vague as to meaning, and there was also no clear
14 location for a facility.
15 The facility and the lack of a facility budget
16 was sort of viewed to be critical because in the
17 Impact failure, most of the million-dollar
18 shortfall had been invested in attempting to pay
19 for a facility.
20 In sum, apart of the problem of Ms. Lasster,
21 there was a budget that reflected a lack of
22 administrative and financial sophistication that
23 was needed to run a school, and a budget that
24 showed no location for facility.
25 In sum, they just weren't ready, and I do want
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1 to say that in the letter sent from the board
2 rejecting them, we did invite them to apply again
3 in the next round. The whole thing was based on
4 what the board views to be solid fact and nothing
5 that could be classified as having a basis in bias
6 of any sort. That concludes my presentation.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Three minutes.
8 MR. MUELLER: Three minutes? Ms. Sparks,
9 would you like to say something, please?
10 MS. SPARKS: Governor, Members of the Cabinet,
11 thank you for allowing me to express the heart of
12 the Duval County School Board as it relates to
13 these charters. I just want to say that I have
14 been an advocate of charters, and I wish to
15 preserve the integrity of the concept of charters.
16 This particular charter, as in the others that
17 we denied in this particular cycle, did not
18 demonstrate the financial capability nor the
19 academic design that they could really run a
20 school, and that they could carry out our mission
21 of the high standards that are set before us.
22 I have never voted against a charter until
23 this particular cycle, and I would like to ask you
24 and appeal to you to support the school board's
25 good judgment in denying these charters on these
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1 bases that were cited to you before by our
2 attorneys. Thank you.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
4 MR. MUELLER: Thank you, sir.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you-all. We may have a
6 few questions, so stand by.
7 MR. MUELLER: We will. Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have a summary of size
9 and scope and what your assessment -- did you-all
10 make an assessment of -- I don't see staff
11 recommendations on this. I don't think there are
12 any.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We didn't make any
14 recommendations on these, Governor. We thought it
15 would be good to hear both sides out and let there
16 be discussions.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: There's a small piece
19 that does give you a little bit, but I don't know
20 if we -- did we give out the --
21 MR. PIERSON: No.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do you know from
23 where this came? There is a -- sort of a sheet
24 that gives you - if you take this one, it's the --
25 let me get the right one.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I know we have
2 questions. If you have some kind of summary,
3 that's fine, but we can do without them.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I've got a pretty good
5 hold on this. The critical thing in my mind is the
6 budget issue, and we didn't hear from the Greater
7 Jacksonville Area Charter School. They didn't
8 address the budget questions upon which this denial
9 was, one of the items upon which it was based.
10 I'd like to hear from them as to what their
11 comments are in reference to the budget.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Specifically, when
14 you're talking about $310,000 or so for teachers or
15 for salaries, and a requirement of 12 teachers
16 which essentially does eat up the $310,000. It
17 doesn't leave anything for additional employees.
18 Do we have a comment on the budget and how you
19 thought the budget was going to be adequate?
20 REVEREND SIMPSON: Governor and Cabinet, I'd
21 like to present Ms. Eddy Lasster which was working
22 very closely with the schools resource people, the
23 charter school people and the budget department.
24 MS. LASTER: Thank you, Mr. Milligan. We did
25 have a session with Duval County's School Board's
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1 budget area. I was there for about three hours in
2 a session with them, and I was also instructed by
3 the coordinator of charter schools, Ms. Evelyn
4 Toots, because my original budget had adequate
5 funds for the teachers and all of the staff
6 members.
7 However, upon a session with her, she advised
8 me to bring my salaries within 25 percent of my
9 budget; so on her recommendation, I had to cut my
10 budget in half, as far as the salaries were
11 concerned, because on her recommendation, she said
12 that my salaries were too high; so I had to bring
13 them down. So on her recommendation, that's where
14 the $310,000 comes from.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have a budget?
16 MR. LASTER: Yes.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we look at it?
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We did take a look at
19 some of these issues -- and I will read you what
20 our staff's concerns are here -- that is, that the
21 issues that need to be resolved are corporate, and
22 governance structures are not clearly defined in
23 the proposal, in the budget projections, and fund
24 sources may be overly optimistic estimates, was our
25 staff's issues to be resolved.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Specifically, the
2 certain gentleman representing the school board
3 talked about a number of budget issues including no
4 money for facility, questions in terms of the
5 salaries.
6 I haven't seen any address along the part of
7 the school, the charter school, of those particular
8 issues. Were they addressed with the school board?
9 Were they attempted to be clarified? Have they
10 been discussed?
11 I mean, I'm just kind of left in limbo.
12 REVEREND SIMPSON: The question asked was,
13 were they addressed with the school board, and have
14 they been --
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The whole question of
16 the budget is not clear to me. They declined your
17 request for a charter school on several issues, but
18 one of them was the budget. From my perspective,
19 that's the most pivotal issue that we're addressing
20 in this particular charter school that we're
21 discussing.
22 No one has clarified from your side how they
23 were in error in terms of their refusing you on the
24 basis of the budget.
25 REVEREND SIMPSON: Out of -- Cabinet and Mr.
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1 Milligan, out of good faith, these applicants
2 worked very conscientiously and thoroughly and
3 consistently with the Duval School Board technical
4 resource persons, and they had been through
5 screening.
6 As a matter of fact, they had sent us back two
7 or three times to amend whatever the deficiencies
8 that they felt was deficiencies, but the rules
9 changed every time. Plus the fact, in the
10 application process of 2001 that the Duval County
11 School Board, the application format, they said
12 July 14th, 2000 submit an updated budget.
13 Therefore, all this was handed on February
14 23rd, and they were not aware or even informed that
15 they needed to have all the final documentation and
16 do more work to their budget when they presented
17 February 23rd. There was a hearing about the
18 negotiations and contracts of preconditional
19 approvals.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's the first time
21 I've heard referenced in the study that I've been
22 doing on this, is the budget being submitted the
23 14th of July and the comments in terms of the
24 governance, but not the budget.
25 REVEREND SIMPSON: An updated budget. They
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1 gave an estimated budget when they submitted the
2 application.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: An updated budget was
4 to be provided on the 14th of July if you were
5 approved.
6 REVEREND SIMPSON: Yes, sir. We were
7 recommended for approval.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: You were recommended for
9 approval?
10 REVEREND SIMPSON: Yes, sir, by the district
11 staff, and also by the superintendent of schools.
12 TREASURER NELSON: I wanted to ask about that
13 inconsistency if I could speak to the school board
14 attorney. Why did the school board overrule the
15 staff and the school superintendent?
16 MR. MUELLER: I think a look at the full
17 record will show that the application was not
18 recommended three times, and then in the final --
19 in the final analysis, it was recommended for
20 approval.
21 There is no record reflection, per se, of why
22 that occurred. I attribute it to political
23 pressure from interested senators and
24 representatives that made their wishes known.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sorry. Excuse me. Are you
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1 saying that staff bent to political pressure from
2 legislators to recommend this?
3 MR. MUELLER: No. I think the superintendent
4 and the staff followed his direction.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Superintendent John C. Fryer,
6 I know him pretty well. He's pretty tough.
7 MR. MUELLER: Well, I think if -- he told the
8 staff to take another careful look at it, and it
9 was misconstrued. Now, beyond that, I do just want
10 to add that you had a tougher standard applied by
11 the board than it did in the past because of the
12 failure of Impact Academy.
13 I would say that was the key thing that
14 occurred. Let me have Ms. Gibson add to that
15 answer because she was there and can explain
16 perhaps more.
17 MS. GIBSON: Gwendolyn Gibson, Duval County
18 School Board. Let me speak to that issue in
19 regards to the staff's recommendation versus the
20 board's recommendation. Certainly the staff
21 brought to us the recommendation.
22 The board was not involved in the actual
23 process, day-to-day, of meeting with or having
24 conferences with the applicants. When the
25 recommendation came to the board after two to three
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1 amendments, through staff efforts, then it was time
2 for the board to review the applicants.
3 It was through the board's review that we
4 determined and made the decision that -- our review
5 may have been a little different from the staff
6 review, but certainly we did our job of reviewing
7 the application very adeptly in trying to be sure
8 that we did not create another problem as we have
9 recently acted upon, and we feel very confident
10 that the decision we made on behalf of the Duval
11 County School Board was the appropriate one.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner?
13 TREASURER NELSON: Did the superintendent
14 recommend approval of the charter school?
15 MS. GIBSON: Yes, sir. The superintendent did
16 make the recommendation, but you know, by law, that
17 the superintendent's job is to make
18 recommendations. It's the board's job to determine
19 whether or not we will move forward with that
20 recommendation.
21 TREASURER NELSON: Yes. As it is our job now
22 to try --
23 MS. GIBSON: Correct.
24 TREASURER NELSON: -- and decipher between the
25 two of you and your positions.
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1 MS. GIBSON: Correct.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Would you describe to me
3 the question of this -- one of the employees, Mr.
4 Lasster.
5 MS. GIBSON: It's Ms. Lasster.
6 TREASURER NELSON: I'm sorry. Ms. Lasster,
7 and what is the bone of contention there.
8 MS. GIBSON: One of the concerns that
9 certainly I, as a board member, had in regards to a
10 person who had participated previously in the
11 Impact Academy Charter School. It was December
12 before the board was placed on notice that there
13 were some serious problems in that charter.
14 We never had any correspondence from any of
15 the board of directors, anyone from that school
16 indicating that they were having serious problems;
17 therefore, our concern is, if we create a charter
18 school, and they have a board of governors that is
19 supposed to take care of their day-to-day
20 operations, if there are problems, then certainly
21 they have an obligation to the board, to the
22 sponsor, to the community, and to the students at
23 that school to notify the appropriate persons
24 timely enough that we will be aware of the
25 problems.
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1 We never got anything from the governing board
2 indicating that they were having problems, and it
3 was only through the board's intervention through
4 staff that we learned of some serious problems and
5 then took the appropriate actions.
6 TREASURER NELSON: And that serious problems
7 is the fact that this particular person, who had
8 been involved in a previous charter school --
9 MS. GIBSON: In a leadership role.
10 TREASURER NELSON: -- was going to be part of
11 the employees of this school.
12 MS. GIBSON: That's correct.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Was that the concern of the
14 Duval School Board?
15 MS. GIBSON: Ms. Lasster was in a leadership
16 role. She started out as the chairman of that
17 particular charter school, and therefore, from the
18 leadership of that governing board, we had no
19 indication of any problems until there was staff
20 intervention into the problems at the Impact
21 Academy.
22 TREASURER NELSON: And if I understand -- if I
23 may address to the charter school applicant -- that
24 your rejoinder to that is that this particular
25 person will not be a director or a member of the
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1 governing board of school.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: She is right behind you so
3 you're still here, right?
4 REVEREND SIMPSON: Let me -- if I may, may I
5 bring some light to it as a clarity because --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
7 REVEREND SIMPSON: -- it has been
8 misrepresented, and if I could give you the history
9 of it. I'm Albert Simpson, Jr., and my job has
10 been liaison juvenile justice for charter schools
11 to represent Steven R. Watts.
12 I am the person -- and you can put it on
13 record -- that blew the whistle on Impact Academy.
14 I submitted to the Duval County School Board that
15 they was having a problem, and that they need to
16 bring in technical resource people from across the
17 state because the operator himself was having
18 problems, and that he felt like he owned the
19 school.
20 Ms. Eddy Lasster was chair of the governance
21 board for a very short period of time, and when she
22 could not get the gentleman under control, that's
23 when she resigned as governance board chair. There
24 was approximately two and a half months upon the
25 new board chair -- which by the name of Johnny
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1 Gaffney -- when this school went under financially
2 under his leadership.
3 Ms. Eddie Lasster had submitted to the school
4 district October 6th, 1999 of her resignation. The
5 school board opted to use that against her because
6 they felt like she had political support because we
7 had asked Ms. Lasster, because of her integrity,
8 because of her honesty and her spirit, to please
9 help this charter school and assume the position of
10 chair.
11 Also we have a document from a very competent
12 CPA and a distinguished senator, Senator Horne in
13 Duval, where they stated -- and, in fact, if I may,
14 I would like to read (as read):
15 "Florida Law states that a charter
16 school's governing board is liable for such debt,
17 but Duval Impact governing board may not be because
18 its members did not approve or sign a contract that
19 resulted in the major debts."
20 "Duval and its staff reviewed minutes from the
21 governing board's meetings, and there was no
22 mention of the contracts, and almost all of the
23 contracts was signed by Stan Field," he said.
24 If this Duval County School Board can present
25 one document that will affix Ms. Lasster's
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1 signature as board chair in a public meeting that
2 approved the governing board's action of an
3 official vote, we would like to see it.
4 I think they cannot present that. They just
5 use it out of content to defame her name and our
6 position, Representative Weiss, mine and Senator
7 Horne's, because we support charter schools.
8 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I ask another
9 question --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely.
11 TREASURER NELSON: -- if I may, of a member of
12 the school board. Was the superintendent aware of
13 all of this information with regard to this
14 employee?
15 MS. GIBSON: Mr. Nelson, to my knowledge, the
16 board never received any information directly from
17 the board of governors for the Impact Academy as to
18 its problems. Never.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Was the superintendent, in
20 making recommendations to you-all as to the school
21 board, was he aware of this particular scenario
22 that has just been described?
23 MS. GIBSON: Which scenario? In regards to --
24 TREASURER NELSON: Ms. Lasster, was she
25 involved? Did he know that she was involved in the
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1 charter school application?
2 MS. GIBSON: At the time the recommendation
3 was made by the staff?
4 TREASURER NELSON: That's correct.
5 MS. GIBSON: I do not believe, at that point
6 in time, the superintendent and the staff was
7 involved in our -- was made aware of -- many times
8 in the application process the names are not as
9 important in the application process.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: But her name was in the
11 application, wasn't it?
12 MS. GIBSON: No. What I'm saying, the names
13 were not as important in the determination as to
14 the factors that the staff used to make a
15 determination. Certainly, when it came to our
16 level, we have a responsibility to look closer at
17 the governance issue.
18 That was one of the components certainly, as a
19 board, after experiencing the Impact Academy that
20 we then keyed in on who exactly was to be serving
21 on the governing board so that we would know what
22 the community contact would be and the community
23 support would be.
24 TREASURER NELSON: Is the superintendent here?
25 MS. GIBSON: No, he isn't.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Is there a representative
2 of the superintendent? Their lawyer is here.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who claims that his boss was
4 pressured.
5 MS. SPARKS: Governor, may I speak to the
6 apparent ambiguity? Speaking to the apparent
7 ambiguity relative to the superintendent's
8 recommendation and the board's decision, I asked
9 the superintendent that night on the public record,
10 that if he were aware of some of the discrepancies
11 and some of the handicaps of these applications
12 that yet remained, would he still have recommended
13 them? His answer, on the public record, was no.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did the application have Ms.
15 Lasster's name in it as a board member?
16 MS. SPARKS: Yes, but as you know, the
17 superintendent did not thoroughly review all of the
18 applications.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Nor did the staff?
20 MS. SPARKS: He relied on his staff, yes.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Nor did the staff?
22 MS. SPARKS: The staff did, but he said that
23 had he known, he would not have forwarded these
24 recommendations to the board.
25 MS. REYNOLDS: Vicky Reynolds, I'm the
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1 executive director for policies compliance, Duval
2 County Public Schools. I think I can explain the
3 difference between the superintendent's
4 recommendation and what the board did and how we
5 got to that position.
6 We -- as a staff, we were operating under the
7 obviously mistaken belief that what our board
8 wanted us to do was to continue to work with these
9 applicants. No matter what the flaws were in their
10 applications, that we could work with them and get
11 them through the charter negotiation process to the
12 point where we felt like they could open.
13 We knew that Ms. Lasster was a problem, and we
14 were going to suggest through the charter
15 negotiation process that perhaps they may not want
16 to use her. The same way with the budget, we knew
17 there were problems with the budget.
18 We felt like our board wanted us to spend a
19 lot of staff time getting these schools to the
20 point where they knew they were ready to open.
21 When we took the recommendations to the board, we
22 were very surprised to find that the majority of
23 our board members didn't hold that philosophy at
24 all, that they wanted those applications to have
25 certain threshold components that showed they were
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1 ready to go.
2 I think that is the difference between what
3 happened when we made the recommendation and the
4 board actually got the application.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Can you -- I still
6 haven't gotten an answer to this question 'cause
7 I've looked at the budget. I've looked at the
8 revenue, and I'll exclude the grants as a little
9 bit of a red herring because they're relatively
10 small.
11 But the salaries are clearly inadequate. The
12 insurance premium probably is inadequate. The
13 facilities are nonexistent. There is no money for
14 facilities, and, you know, it just doesn't make
15 sense to me how, when we look at the revenue and we
16 look at those things that I know are not accounted
17 for -- where is the money coming from?
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't we ask someone from
19 the charter school to answer it?
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I did, and I can't get
21 an answer.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know, but let's try it
23 again.
24 REVEREND SIMPSON: We're sorry that if we're
25 not giving you, Mr. Milligan, what you're looking
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1 for. Again, when we -- when they went before the
2 Duval County School Board on February 23rd, it was
3 not said to them, it was not addressed to them
4 before that they needed to have all of these
5 answers to the questions.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: You have it now.
7 REVEREND SIMPSON: Okay. But we have --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: In theory, if you were to get
9 this, you would start school in September. You've
10 got to have a budget. You've got to have a
11 building; so the question is answer -- I mean, put
12 it in the present tense.
13 REVEREND SIMPSON: Okay. Here's the pastor,
14 and the church has collaborated on the church
15 property, and the pastor could speak to the
16 facility issue about what they would --
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's a piece of it.
18 You have -- I presume your revenue estimate is
19 fairly good.
20 REVEREND SIMPSON: Yes, sir.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just tell me how you
22 fit salaries, how you fit facilities, how you fit
23 some of these other things that may be involved
24 into that --
25 REVEREND SIMPSON: Here again, they were
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1 looking -- the church was in collaboration and
2 supportive of the charter school with their funds
3 until they could really get the start-up dollars
4 and to get an opportunity to work on all of that.
5 They would have had all of those answers
6 certainly before -- at the deadline of July 14th to
7 work in to do that because they was working up
8 something then, but they were denied February 23rd,
9 and without a legal -- without a charter being
10 approved, or either receiving an initial approval,
11 you certainly could not go in and ask investors or
12 somebody to really put some money into it.
13 Here's the pastor.
14 REVEREND EVANS: We'd just like to say that
15 the church where we are, the location, we sit on 10
16 acres of land, and we certainly have the
17 facilities. We were led to believe that we would
18 be able to get the support that we need from the
19 State, but then being led and listening to the
20 various ones that we were talking to, we couldn't
21 seem to get no straight answers ourselves.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Gallagher, are
23 there any more fixed capital outlay dollars for
24 charter schools?
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's not to have a
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1 school ready for September. I mean, I wish I could
2 tell you that we do, but --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: If you were told that, you
4 might have been misled because I don't think that
5 money --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They flow through the
7 district. They're done on an annual basis, and
8 there's no way that the SIT fund -- unless the
9 county wants --
10 REVEREND EVANS: I really --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- to redo what
12 they're doing or something.
13 REVEREND EVANS: I really believe that was the
14 whole agenda for us to --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could you start school this
16 September?
17 REVEREND EVANS: With the help of the State,
18 yes.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well now, what would
20 you expect the State to do? 'Cause I think I'm
21 speaking sort of for the State --
22 REVEREND EVANS: Start-up money. That would
23 certainly help us to get started and moving in the
24 direction that we need to go.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Give me an idea of
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1 how much you're talking about as a start fund?
2 REVEREND EVANS: $75,000.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What's that going to
4 do for a facility? Where are these children going
5 to go to get an education. You've got 10 acres,
6 but is there a building on these 10 acres?
7 REVEREND SIMPSON: Yes, sir. He does have a
8 structured educational building, and what they were
9 going to do is, they were going to use modulars to
10 accommodate them for the rest of the space that
11 they needed to deliver educational instruction.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, you've got $500
13 a month. Now, how much modulars can you rent with
14 $500 a month? I mean, that's what the budget has
15 for the facility.
16 REVEREND SIMPSON: Okay. Here again is --
17 Commissioner, here again, we did not -- like I
18 said, they was working on the budgets and the
19 updated budgets and to have all of those issues
20 clarified, but they weren't given a chance to do
21 that, plus the fact that the church was going to
22 support the charter school in terms of the money.
23 You're correct. Out of that, you cannot do
24 it, but they've got -- the church has the money to
25 help and support of those efforts, a collaboration
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1 between the church and the school.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You know, but you
3 present something here -- you make it really hard
4 for us. I mean, I can tell you, I'm a charter
5 school advocate. I want to see charter schools
6 open and be successful, but I don't want to see
7 them fail.
8 To have this budget sit there and not get
9 changed and realizing that you need to do it, and
10 say it's not going to be until July or something, I
11 mean, it puts us in a bad position here.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just as -- we're dealing with
13 reality here about when any of these applicants,
14 not just this one, could start which is the start
15 of the school year. Out of curiosity, why are we
16 dealing with this in June?
17 Did we slow down the process, because it's
18 kind of late in the game for the districts and the
19 schools now for us to be reversing track to get --
20 I mean, I've been there. I've done this. It took
21 us -- the cement was settling on the flagpole the
22 day that we opened for school at the Liberty City
23 Charter School.
24 It was a herculean effort to get it all done,
25 and we got an approval in June as well. It was a
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1 nightmare.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, and you had a
3 building.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we had to fix it. We
5 had the same situation, and we had to raise the
6 money. Did we delay? Did we defer discussions on
7 this enough so that we're getting into this time
8 crunch?
9 MR. PIERSON: Thirty days.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: On May 23rd we
11 deferred it to today.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Commissioner Crawford?
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think the school
14 board's position, which I think is reasonable, they
15 want to see a complete package for them to approve
16 it. I think, at this point, to get that package
17 ready by September is not as feasible.
18 Hopefully you'll come back and reapply and
19 give it a chance to work out all these things. At
20 this time, I think I would move that we affirm the
21 actions of the school board.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any further discussion?
25 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, Katherine?
2 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a different outlook
3 on this. I would just like to share it. That is
4 from the perspective, according to the statutes, it
5 says that you have to, within 10 days, articulate
6 in writing specific reasons.
7 With the four different schools, when you look
8 at either deficiencies or how well some of them are
9 written, I didn't really think that was addressing
10 what you were required to do by statute in terms of
11 giving specific answers.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're referring to the school
13 district?
14 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes. And also, when you
15 start looking in terms of good cause for denial,
16 some of these things they didn't do, but if you
17 read it, specifically when you read what the
18 Jacksonville School Board requests, it says that a
19 conditional approval of a charter school can be
20 granted prior to the final submission of the
21 document.
22 I think any rational person, when you read
23 this -- it goes on to say in the language, it says,
24 all these things that can be done ahead of time.
25 It seemed to me that it was only fair for these
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1 applicants to submit these, even if the budget was
2 in the process, that you didn't have to do the
3 board of governors and all these kinds of things,
4 so they submitted it.
5 But then the school board comes back and says
6 that -- they argued that the language in their
7 application doesn't create any rights that the
8 appellants can rely on. Also, they say, well, just
9 because we gave you this instruction book, and
10 these are instructions of what you need to do in
11 the process, you can't count on that.
12 So instead, you have to give us something, you
13 know, a new product. I think there was something
14 missing in that process because I think that this
15 was more a conditional approval; so I don't
16 think -- I guess what I'm saying, to end, is that I
17 think that they didn't believe that they were
18 submitting final documentation, and that the school
19 board now is being able to say -- is permitted to
20 say that the failure to submit that final
21 documentation is good cause for denial.
22 I mean, it seemed to me it's conditional, and
23 that, to me, is wrong. I think there was a
24 disconnect of communication because some of these
25 applications are good. I mean, a couple of them
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1 are, and, in fact, if you go back to --
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We're only talking
3 about this application. I'm not arguing the
4 governance issue. I'm arguing the budget, and I'm
5 telling you the school board is not without a
6 parachute.
7 I mean, they've done some pretty dumb things
8 as far as I can see, including the reason why it's
9 late is they delayed the submission. They pushed
10 it back. They're the ones that delayed the time in
11 this; so they're not walking around with nice white
12 gloves on, but the budget, I don't care if the
13 governance situation -- the budget should have been
14 in order before anybody said, yea or nay on this.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have any -- and I
16 concur with what both Secretary Harris and General
17 Milligan said. Just to try to bring a little bit
18 of closure here, if this was granted -- if your
19 request was granted, could you start in September?
20 REVEREND SIMPSON: No, sir.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was the first question.
22 Thank you. Secondly, do you have working capital
23 in your -- for your -- do you have money in the
24 bank?
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: From the church.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: From the church or from --
2 this is a separate 501C3, I assume.
3 REVEREND EVANS: Yes, sir.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have money in the bank?
5 REVEREND EVANS: A small portion.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Small being --
7 REVEREND EVANS: Not enough to start.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- bigger than a breadbasket?
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do you have $1,000 or
10 $10,000?
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: How much?
12 REVEREND EVANS: I would probably have to turn
13 to my administrator for that, but a breadbasket.
14 I'm being honest.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's good. I appreciate
16 your honesty because the biggest problem with
17 charter schools has been, across the state, the
18 lack of liquidity. The best people with great
19 intentions tend to draw down on the Impact Academy
20 issue.
21 It may have gone way beyond that. I don't
22 know, but these are -- you need working capital,
23 but based on the fact that you couldn't start up,
24 even if we approved it now, for whatever reason, it
25 sounds like -- I hope it wasn't intended to get to
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1 this point by the school district where we're in
2 this position because of delays.
3 If you don't have the working capital and you
4 don't have the school ready for September, I think
5 we -- I would concur with Commissioner Crawford's
6 statement on this application.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me say this, if I
8 may, Florida Statutes allow you to request from us,
9 the Department of Education -- in fact, I'll read
10 it to you (as read):
11 "The Department of Education may provide
12 technical assistance to an applicant upon written
13 request."
14 Let me ask you to request some assistance from
15 us, and let us help you work through these
16 problems, and let you know how much capital you're
17 going to need, and let you figure out if you can
18 get that capital to make the thing work.
19 It will not work with just the cash flow money
20 from the school board. You have to have other
21 moneys involved; otherwise, you're going to get in
22 trouble. I'll offer our help from the Department
23 of Education to help you get open next year and go
24 through the process so that you'll be able to have
25 success with a charter school if you can come up
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1 with the needed resources to do it.
2 REVEREND SIMPSON: Our position, Mr. Governor
3 and Cabinet, has not been to not do it correctly
4 and to not do it right. There is a meanness in
5 Jacksonville that is about -- the school board
6 that's about FTE dollars, and it's not about
7 charter schools in terms of helping the kids in
8 terms of that population.
9 They have been very successful in -- we have a
10 cap on 28. We have six now. Two of those out of
11 the six that built already told me that they were
12 going to shut down because they want to send a
13 message to you as well as to the Governor of the
14 State of the Florida.
15 We have no reason to tell you an untruth.
16 These people could have fixed whatever the
17 deficiencies are, plus the fact that if they were
18 given an opportunity -- and the Cabinet aides did
19 recommend that we go back and work with the school
20 district, and we tried to do that, but they wanted
21 the school district -- the school board wanted to
22 come up here because they would not accept the
23 recommendation of the Cabinet aide.
24 We did not want to reapply. We wanted to work
25 what -- we know that it's too late in the game now
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1 to start over -- I mean, plus the fact of opening,
2 but we needed that assurance just like we did with
3 Radar (phonetic). They was approved for a year.
4 They went back. They were not able to open
5 then, but they opened a year later. We need that
6 same assurance . We would like to have it.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion?
8 (No response.)
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to deny the
10 appeal, I think, is the way we would say it. Is
11 there was a second? I think there already is a
12 second. All in favor say aye.
13 (Affirmative response.)
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
15 (No response.)
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: The denial is passed, but I
17 do -- if you're looking for a validation to get it
18 right, subject to the budget issues and governance
19 issues and having a working capital and having the
20 coalition that I know that you have, there's no
21 reason why you shouldn't be able to work out your
22 issues at the school district, which they have
23 stated on the record now that they're a strong
24 supporter of charter schools. You can deal with
25 these issues that I think can be worked out.
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1 REVEREND SIMPSON: Thank you, Governor.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: We appreciate you coming.
3 REVEREND SIMPSON: All right. Thank you.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item three.
5 MR. PIERSON: For the record, these appeals
6 were deferred from the May 9th meeting, not the May
7 23rd meeting. Item 3 is the Jacksonville Learning
8 Institute Charter School, Incorporated, versus the
9 Duval County School Board. For the charter school
10 is Dr. Jenetta Norman and Attorney Noel Lawrence.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
12 MR. LAWRENCE: May it please the Cabinet and
13 Honorable Governor --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Excuse me, before you start, I
15 think it might -- you got a sense of what our
16 questions are and what the concerns might be. You
17 may want to focus on those issues to give us a
18 little bit of guidance so we can move this along.
19 Does that make sense?
20 MR. LAWRENCE: Certainly, Governor.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
22 MR. LAWRENCE: May it please the Cabinet --
23 the Honorable Governor and Cabinet Members, I
24 have -- just before I start my presentation, I have
25 with me Dr. Jenetta Norman, who is standing to my
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1 left, and with me some members of the board such as
2 Mr. Hurst and Mr. Morgan from Jacksonville --
3 excuse me, Dr. Hurst.
4 Now, Dr. Norman, it's clear by the submission
5 of the items that are on the record, is a very
6 knowledgeable individual who has a lot of
7 experience in dealing with student issues. She
8 worked at the district level for several years
9 supervising over 30 schools, and at one point, she
10 was a specialist with the special ed department for
11 45 years, a principal for 21 years, did budgeting
12 for 22 years and the director for the tutoring
13 program.
14 Now, the school board seemed to place a lot of
15 emphasis on the fact that she did not have the
16 articles of incorporation for Jacksonville Learning
17 Institute, Inc., on February 23rd, 2000, and I
18 think that's a misguided approach because the
19 statute clearly says that the proposal for a new
20 charter school may be made by an individual, the
21 teachers, the parents, a group of individuals, or a
22 legal entity organized under the laws of the state.
23 It does state further on, under legal entity,
24 that a charter school shall organize as a nonprofit
25 organization; so the statute envisioned that the
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1 proposal can be submitted by any of these people
2 including the entity that was proposed by Dr.
3 Norman.
4 It's not until you get to contract
5 negotiations that a legal entity is necessary, and
6 certainly not until you start operating the charter
7 school that you need a legal entity. That was the
8 interpretation throughout the application process
9 which, for the Cabinet's benefit, started July
10 1999.
11 The applications were submitted in fall of --
12 roughly October 1999. They were reviewed by a
13 committee staff members of about 13 people,
14 individuals, who worked with the school board.
15 These are staff people who are instructional
16 research, from the budget office, from the
17 certification of the human resources, routing
18 specialist from region 3, facilities fiscal
19 planning, and the supervisor for ESOL, food
20 services of the general director for student
21 services.
22 (Secretary Harris exits room.)
23 MR. LAWRENCE: These people initially reviewed
24 the application and denied for the reasons. At no
25 time in that denial -- that was in November -- was
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1 there any denial based on the articles of
2 incorporation.
3 They were asked to amend the application with
4 certain information which was supplied just before
5 Christmas 1999. Then by January -- I think it was
6 January 3 -- this particular charter proposal was
7 recommended for approval by the staff. In fact,
8 they went as far as to indicate that this charter
9 school, Jacksonville Learning Institute -- this
10 proposed charter school seeks to promote an
11 environment of academic rigor and excellence.
12 They talk about the organizers, and they
13 indicated at the bottom that a proposal can be
14 approved without the selection of a facility. That
15 is of January 3, 2000 which was after the time that
16 they, the school board, had been notified about
17 Impact and certainly way after the time that the
18 staff, including the superintendent, was notified
19 about the problems with Impact.
20 To change the process midstream is a violation
21 of due process. The application clearly says from
22 the Duval County School Board that the articles of
23 incorporation and the governance documents are not
24 required until July 14th 2000.
25 It's not required until after provisional
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1 approval from the board, and, in fact, the statute
2 envisioned that it wouldn't be required until then;
3 so I think the school board, when they changed
4 their policy all of a sudden on February 23, 2000,
5 was misguided.
6 I think it's unconstitutional, and I think for
7 a lot of reasons, that they changed midstream, and
8 it's unfair, and it's unfortunate, and they've
9 emulated form over substance at this point. The
10 Jacksonville Learning Institute, Inc., should have
11 been conditionally approved.
12 The diversity of the board is unquestioned.
13 The proposal which you already have is very
14 lengthy. It talks about the academic programs, all
15 the other substance that the statute requires for
16 conditional approval.
17 They have also had a community support
18 documentation that was submitted to the school
19 board; so there was no substantive reason for the
20 denial, and I challenge the school board to
21 articulate good cause rather than the form over
22 substance argument that they're currently resting
23 their hats on.
24 I want to point out to the Cabinet that the
25 school board members themselves made comments about
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1 the organization of the school in terms of the
2 individuals that are involved. Ms. Wilkinson said:
3 "Let me say this to you -- and I can only
4 speak for myself, but I sense from what Mr. Jordan
5 has said and the way he said it, you know, I've
6 been one that's been hard on charter schools, and
7 you're one that I could have voted for because I've
8 known you and I've watched you for many years do
9 such wonderful work for children in our school
10 district.
11 "And we're caught between a rock and a hard
12 place, and there's no place for us to go but to say
13 we can't do it because we don't have the legal
14 entity to do it with. And if we could just do it
15 with you and not deal with this stuff, I would do
16 it. You know and you said you won't go to
17 Tallahassee."
18 Another board member said -- this is Mr.
19 Jordan. He says:
20 "Dr. Norman, in no way does the no vote in any
21 way reflect on your ability, your contributions and
22 what you've done for the children in this
23 community. I recognize that. I know where your
24 heart is planted, but I want you to please
25 understand that you have this board member and
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1 other board members in a position we have no
2 choice.
3 "We have to vote tonight so that we can. You
4 can exercise -- you have the right to exercise your
5 option, and this is it. I want you to understand
6 that if you have the articles of incorporation, I
7 would have voted for you. I'll tell you right now
8 that's where we are. We'll always be appreciative
9 of what you have done."
10 Finally, the last board member that made a
11 comment, Ms. Sparks, who is here present. She
12 says:
13 "Dr. Norman, I have the highest respect and
14 regard for you, and just let me add my best wishes
15 along with all of my colleagues to you in
16 appreciation for all what you have meant to this
17 district. I hope that we haven't seen the last of
18 your talent and good heart here.
19 "And again, our legal counsel is saying that
20 Jacksonville Learning Institute does not exist; so
21 again, I just wanted for the record to share with
22 you and say, I, too wish to have supported you."
23 I submit to the Cabinet that Jacksonville
24 Learning Institute, Inc., didn't need to exist as a
25 legal entity for purposes of the conditional
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1 approval.
2 (Commissioner Crawford exits room.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we get that confirmed by
4 -- I mean, has that been confirmed by the DOE?
5 This is a question -- your point about form over
6 substance is pretty compelling. In terms of the
7 process for an application to a school district, do
8 you have to have -- there was a comment made by a
9 gentleman about July 14th being the deadline, I
10 believe, for all of this. Is that accurate?
11 MS. WILLARD: My name is Andrea Willard. I
12 work for you in the Department of Education. Under
13 the current charter law, that deadline is allowable
14 for the district to set. The state law does not
15 require that, nor is there a deadline for that.
16 Simply by the time the charter is sent, there must
17 be one.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Just so -- what
19 you're saying is that there is not a rule -- there
20 is no law that says that they have to have the
21 entity formed when they go to the school board. Is
22 that what you're saying?
23 MS. WILLARD: In the application process;
24 that's correct.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They don't have to
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1 have the entity formed when they put their
2 application in?
3 MS. WILLARD: Right.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Obviously, they're
5 going to have the entity formed before they get --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: They don't have to have it
7 prior to the application; so all the comments, good
8 comments made by the school board members saying,
9 boy, if you had it, if you were incorporated, we
10 would have approved you, may be based on faulty
11 legal information.
12 MS. WILLARD: The law does not speak one way
13 or the other. In the absence of an actual
14 statement, then it is a local decision.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So they could make it
16 their requirement.
17 MS. WILLARD: It is the Duval County's
18 requirement.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Ask Duval County --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Well, be prepared to
21 answer that at the time, but let them finish up. I
22 think that's a point worth clearing up.
23 MR. LAWRENCE: Sure. I just want to point out
24 that they do have an application process, and
25 nowhere in the application it says that you have to
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1 have the articles of incorporation for provisional
2 approval.
3 In fact, it says on there, for final
4 documentation, that the articles of incorporation
5 bylaws and the whole nine yards should be submitted
6 for final documentation by July 14, 2000. I think
7 the rules were changed --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's in their application?
9 MR. LAWRENCE: -- in their application process
10 itself. I submit to the body that looking at the
11 statute, it's clearly says the proposal can be made
12 by an individual, teachers, parents or group of
13 individuals or a legal entity organized under the
14 laws of the state; so it can be proposed by anyone
15 else. I think it's when you get to the contract
16 negotiations stage that you need articles of
17 incorporation.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments?
19 MR. LAWRENCE: No, thanks.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doctor, would you like to
21 briefly -- maybe you can answer, if you get this
22 approval, would you be able to start up? Do you
23 have the working capital? Are you ready to rock?
24 DR. NORMAN: Right. Yes. Thank you, Governor
25 Bush and to the Cabinet. I want to say that I'm
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1 going to urge you today to please recommend
2 approval of the Jacksonville Learning Institute
3 Charter School.
4 It's based on the Jacksonville community's
5 need for a program of this quality for special
6 needs children. These are special needs children,
7 and I am going to partner up with the Jacksonville
8 Symphony Orchestra.
9 We're going to take the kids from the ghetto
10 that end up in special ed classes and those that
11 are already tested in special ed classes, and team
12 up with the symphony, team them up with field trips
13 where they will go and get some culture in life.
14 We're going to test them at the beginning of
15 the year, test them at the end of the year to see
16 how much progress we can make. These are the
17 children, that are in the school system right now
18 in the schools, they seem not to be able to know
19 what to do with.
20 I believe, as far as the budget is concerned,
21 that due to my past and present experiences with
22 the budget and boys with the Duval County School
23 Board, approximately 22 years, I am qualified and
24 certified to operate a budget.
25 I have never had any problems with the budget.
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1 The last school I was to, Palmetto Exceptional
2 Student Center, I was there for 15 years and
3 operated on a shoestring budget, but I made it
4 work; so I do know what to do with a budget.
5 The other thing is that with this pilot
6 program -- and I want to make my plea to the school
7 board members. I plan to work with you, and I want
8 to work with you in harmony; so I do not hold any
9 misunderstandings in any way, because we cannot
10 make it work if you're pulling one way and I'm
11 pulling another.
12 Now, based a little bit on my experience, not
13 with the school board, I am currently chairperson
14 of the Jacksonville Human Rights Commission for
15 Jacksonville, Florida. I'm the chairperson of the
16 Urban Poor Citizen Planning Action Committee for
17 Jacksonville, Florida. I'm the secretary of the
18 Planning and Zoning Commission, Jacksonville,
19 Florida.
20 I'm a member of the board for the advocates of
21 a better Jacksonville, and a member of the census
22 committee; so I have done a lot. I've had a lot of
23 experience, and I don't see why I would drop to a
24 level where I could not run a charter school with
25 100, no more than 200 students.
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1 I can meet the challenge. I have the money.
2 I have an empowerment committee that's sitting by,
3 and I would not name those people right now until
4 we get conditional approval. You cannot raise
5 money and funds for a program that does not exist.
6 If we had gotten conditional approval, the money
7 would be there.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have the building?
9 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: You could open in September?
11 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
13 DR. NORMAN: One other thing that --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: We've kind of gone past the 10
15 minutes unless there's something that's really
16 urgent. You'll get another shot at this, I'm sure.
17 Let's hear from --
18 MR. PIERSON: Ms. Chastain.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Ms. Chastain, welcome.
20 (Commissioner Crawford enters room.)
21 MS. CHASTAIN: Governor and Members of the
22 Cabinet, my name is Karen Chastain. I'm assistant
23 general counsel with the Office of General Counsel
24 representing the Duval County School District.
25 There are interesting questions that have been
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1 raised here.
2 The first one I wish to address is whether an
3 applicant must be incorporated, or form the
4 partnership, or take whatever necessary business
5 organizational activities are required in order to
6 be eligible for conditional approval, and certainly
7 by the time the charter agreement is entered into.
8 I think the real issue here is not form over
9 substance, but really goes to the substance of the
10 matter. In this particular instance, in the
11 application, the applicant indicated that it was,
12 in fact, incorporated, and it was not.
13 When staff discovered this, members of staff
14 personally contacted Dr. Norman -- first, it was
15 Evelyn Toots, who is the charter school
16 coordinator, and then at least on two occasions, by
17 Vicky Reynolds, who is in the audience right now --
18 asking Dr. Norman to be sure to file the articles
19 of incorporation so that the statements within the
20 application can be corroborated, if you will, with
21 a set of corporate documents.
22 This was so the confusion, within the four
23 corners of the application, as to who was
24 controlling the corporation, how will it be
25 governed can be resolved one way or the other by
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1 the corporate documents that were asked to be
2 submitted.
3 (Governor Bush exits room.)
4 MS. CHASTAIN: Unfortunately this did not
5 happen after the school board hearing; so to the
6 extent that articles of incorporation are now
7 included in the record before you, that that
8 actually is not appropriately included within the
9 record.
10 This statement in the application, they were
11 incorporated, raises some substantive concerns.
12 Either one of two things may have happened. Either
13 it was a lack of candor, but it's more likely a
14 lack of appreciation and understanding of the
15 corporate form and what is to be required.
16 This is demonstrated by things that were
17 included within the initial application. For
18 example, articles of incorporation and a 501C3
19 determination letter from the IRS for a third-party
20 corporation, that from being from Macedonia Gulf, a
21 development corporation, whose stated purpose is to
22 promote affordable housing, no mention of
23 education, were submitted within the application as
24 if that were to satisfy the requirements.
25 Unfortunately the inclusion of those items
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1 really added to confusion which the board members,
2 certainly by the time this application got to that
3 level, had serious concerns about because, again,
4 within the four corners of the application, there
5 was extreme confusion as to who was in charge and
6 how would this be operated.
7 (Governor Bush enters room.)
8 The statute requires that these types of
9 matters be considered in advance by the district,
10 and as a practical matter, when one is entering
11 into contract negotiations, we would need to know
12 with who we are dealing, who is in charge, and who
13 has the authority to negotiate on behalf of the
14 applicants, if you will.
15 The district has no quarrel about the
16 qualifications of Dr. Norman in educational
17 matters, but to the extent that the platform, if
18 you will, the business platform, that being
19 articles of incorporation or corporate governance
20 issues, if you will, and budget matters, if those
21 items are missing, no matter how innovative your
22 program for the applicant may be, it is likely to
23 fail if there is poor business planning involved.
24 This has actually not been a change of policy
25 on behalf of the district, but really in the
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1 context of this application trying to determine who
2 actually is the applicant and who will be running
3 the operation.
4 To date, there has been really very little
5 effort to correct the matters that are of concern
6 in the district. There are still questions that
7 are raised by the articles of incorporation that
8 were belatedly submitted by the applicant which
9 would need resolution.
10 There are certain budget matters that are of
11 concern to the district as well. Those items were
12 articulated during the February 23rd hearing.
13 Notably, it appears that the sources of revenue per
14 student may have been slightly overstated.
15 In and of itself, that may not be fatal, but
16 you need to keep it in mind when you look at
17 certain items that are missing within the budget,
18 certain expenses that are missing. The applicant
19 states that they have a lease for the property at
20 certainly below-market rent.
21 They've only allocated $500 a month for
22 utilities which seems low. Absent verification
23 from a donor landlord, it's hard to determine
24 whether that is appropriate or not. The budget
25 within the application lacks certain expenses such
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1 as textbooks, classroom supplies and educational
2 materials, again the very purpose for which this
3 organization is proposed and organized and would
4 cause concern to the district.
5 Again, as with corporate governance, budget
6 items need to be scrutinized in advance, and I
7 would submit to you that the district considered
8 this application very carefully, as did the board
9 members.
10 Certainly Dr. Norman's reputation preceded
11 her, as evidenced by the transcript, a great deal
12 of respect and admiration for her work as an
13 educator. But again, the concern being that
14 without a sound business platform, no matter how
15 great your skills are as an educator, and how
16 wonderful your program is, you need that sound
17 business planning in order to effectuate and offer
18 the stability and the stable environment for the
19 children who the applicant is trying to serve.
20 If there are any questions, I would be happy
21 to address them.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: How do you explain the July
23 14th, in your own rules, the July 14th deadline for
24 the submission of all the things that you say they
25 didn't have when they applied and therefore were
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1 rejected?
2 MS. CHASTAIN: I have a couple of responses to
3 that. First of all, I believe that this is a form
4 that came from the charter school office at some
5 point at the genesis of it. I'm not certain when.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: 2000 Duval County Charter
7 School application, it says.
8 MS. CHASTAIN: I understand that. I believe
9 it was retyped using the format that was proposed
10 by the charter school office, but be that as it may
11 -- and it may have been from years ago.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you saying this isn't the
13 policy of the county, the school district?
14 MS. CHASTAIN: I'm sorry?
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you saying that the policy
16 as to this little piece I have is not accurate,
17 does not reflect the policy of the school district?
18 MS. CHASTAIN: I believe what the application
19 says is that the district may consider, does not
20 require that it consider, but may consider
21 conditional approval absent this documentation.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. So this conditional
23 approval of a charter school may be granted prior
24 to the final submission of these documents. That's
25 what it says.
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1 MS. CHASTAIN: Right.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: You don't have to, but you
3 could. Based on all the positive statements made
4 about the sponsor of this charter school
5 application, I'm kind of confused about why one
6 would want to try to stop this based on just this
7 form rather than the substance, since the substance
8 appears to have been -- and we have budget
9 questions, I'm sure, but at least as it relates to
10 the applicant and the board and their efforts, they
11 seem to have been, based on the transcript of the
12 board meeting, fairly positive statements.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, what I'd
14 like is a response from the applicant on the issue
15 of apparently there was some representation that
16 they were a corporation when, in fact, they
17 weren't.
18 Then some other corporation was mentioned
19 which I couldn't figure out what that was all
20 about. Since they've now heard your comments, they
21 can respond to those points.
22 MR. LAWRENCE: Sure. Noel Lawrence again, for
23 the record. I just want to point out that legal
24 counsel was not involved when the proposal was
25 submitted, but I can point out that the statute
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1 clearly says that the proposal can be made by even
2 a third party.
3 Then incorporation was submitted by Macedonia;
4 so they are the proposer, although they're not the
5 name of the charter school. The name of the
6 charter school -- I mean, the incorporation of the
7 charter school must be done after the conditional
8 approval, but before a contract is approved and
9 certainly before the school operates.
10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Was the representation
11 made that the charter school was already
12 incorporated?
13 MR. LAWRENCE: No. The representation at the
14 board meeting, as I read the transcript, was that
15 the charter school is being incorporated. Because
16 my client is here, and she will tell you that
17 someone has gone to Tallahassee -- in the record,
18 it says somebody has gone to Tallahassee to
19 incorporate the Jacksonville Learning Institute,
20 Inc., which was delegated to a Mr. Jones. Mr.
21 Jones is a CPA, Lee Jones.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you incorporated now?
23 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. It was incorporated and
24 it's retroactive to February 23, 2000.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, Commissioner.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask the counselor to
2 the school board a question? As I understand it,
3 the applicant was given three attempts to revise
4 the application, and after the third revision, the
5 charter school review committee made a favorable
6 recommendation to the school board that the staff
7 recommended, and that when the school board voted,
8 that it was on a close vote of 4 to 3 to deny; is
9 that correct?
10 MS. CHASTAIN: No, not exactly. In this case,
11 all of the applicants had three opportunities to
12 submit and amend their application. This
13 applicant, however, received a favorable staff
14 recommendation on round 2. The staff took at face
15 value the statement in the application that it was
16 incorporated.
17 When Ms. Toots subsequently discovered that it
18 was not incorporated, she personally contacted, via
19 telephone, Dr. Norman and advised her of this
20 discrepancy, and asked that she submit the articles
21 of incorporation to corroborate the statements
22 within the application and clear up the confusion.
23 When Ms. Toots felt that her comments were not
24 being heard, she enlisted the help of Vicky
25 Reynolds to contact Dr. Norman as well, which Ms.
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1 Reynolds did on two occasions.
2 Each time, it is my understanding, that Dr.
3 Norman advised the person making the request,
4 whether it was Ms. Toots or Ms. Reynolds, that it
5 was being taken care of, and that this would be
6 corrected. Unfortunately as of February 23rd, it
7 was not.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: But again, that is only -- you
9 didn't have to deny the request by February 23rd
10 based on your own guidelines, correct?
11 MS. CHASTAIN: I believe I misunderstood your
12 question as to February 23rd being an absolute
13 deadline. Was that the question?
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. The question was back to
15 these documents -- final authorization to operate a
16 charter school will certainly be contingent upon a
17 submission of these documents that we're referring
18 to, and documents must be submitted to the Duval
19 County School Board by July 14th, year 2000.
20 MS. CHASTAIN: I believe there's a difference
21 between -- I believe it says, final governance
22 document.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Final authorization. It says
24 conditional approval of a charter school may be
25 granted prior to the final submission of these
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1 documents. The documents, I assume, are all the
2 documents that you require including the articles
3 of incorporation.
4 You have the power -- you had the power
5 February 23rd to approve this subject to getting
6 the articles of incorporation. You-all decided to
7 do something different which is to deny it, hence
8 we're here. Is that correct?
9 MS. CHASTAIN: Ms. Gibson would like to --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, this is a legal
11 question.
12 MS. CHASTAIN: Well, Ms. Gibson is a lawyer.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. You also work in
14 the legal office?
15 MS. GIBSON: No, sir. Gwen Gibson, Duval
16 County School Board member. Governor, I think the
17 confusion that is here today is the fact that the
18 applicants submitted, to our staff, documents
19 reflecting a separate corporation that was a
20 corporation from a church.
21 When we asked information regarding the board
22 of directors, exactly who would be the governing
23 board of the Jacksonville Learning Institute, we
24 were never able to get any answers; so the
25 confusion was that there was in their application
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1 documents from another corporation, as far as the
2 501C3, but we never got any documentation in
3 regards to the Jacksonville Learning Institute, and
4 therefore, we had no indication as to who was on
5 the governing board.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you know now?
7 MS. GIBSON: Pardon?
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you know now?
9 MS. GIBSON: No, we do not.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've never been given
11 information --
12 MS. GIBSON: The application regarding the
13 governing board for the Jacksonville Learning
14 Institute came after the board approval on February
15 23rd.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: The board denied it.
17 MS. GIBSON: The board denied the application
18 because of the fact we did not have a legal
19 entity --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know. I understand that.
21 MS. GIBSON: -- that we understood that we
22 could determine who, in fact --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Help me out.
24 MS. GIBSON: Yes.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tell me if you now know that
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1 there is articles of incorporation, and do you know
2 who the board members are? Are you disapproving of
3 who the board members are?
4 MS. GIBSON: No. We have not acted on the
5 application since February 23rd.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: I didn't ask that. I asked
7 politely -- I mean, I'm sorry. I'm getting a
8 little bit tired. Do you know who is on the board
9 of directors of this applicant now?
10 MS. GIBSON: No. Nothing has been --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Does anybody in the school
12 district know who the quality of this board is?
13 MS. GIBSON: We have not had a recommendation
14 from the superintendent or the staff subsequent to
15 February 23rd in regards to the board of directors
16 for Jacksonville Learning Institute.
17 MS. CHASTAIN: I can elaborate a little bit
18 further on that, if I may. To the extent that
19 we're being asked to consider the articles of
20 incorporation that were filed after the hearing and
21 therefore is outside of the records,
22 notwithstanding our objection that that be
23 considered, I have reviewed those articles of
24 incorporation.
25 I note the following things which are outlined
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1 in our reply. First of all, at the board hearing
2 on February 23rd, a list of names was submitted for
3 consideration as persons who might be controlling
4 this organization. When you compare that list with
5 the list that is going to be now filed, belatedly
6 articles of incorporation, there are new
7 individuals.
8 Some are deleted, and some are gone.
9 Therefore, the district has not had the opportunity
10 to evaluate the composition of this board. I also
11 note that the articles of incorporation show that
12 this is a member corporation, much like a
13 shareholder in a for-profit corporation has the
14 ultimate control of a for-profit corporation, in
15 that they insert directors and so on and so forth.
16 The counterpart to that in the not-for-profit
17 corporation is the member. We don't know who the
18 members are; so again, we still don't know who is
19 in charge of this organization, and who is running
20 the show.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Theoretically -- this is only
22 in theory -- if this application was approved, do
23 you think that you could get comfortable with the
24 board of directors, answer to your questions about
25 your articles of incorporation prior to July 23rd,
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1 which is the deadline in your own rules, that these
2 documents had to have been submitted?
3 MS. CHASTAIN: First of all, with respect to
4 this, quote, deadline, it was understood by this
5 applicant, as well as all of the applicants, that
6 we wanted to see corporate documents. We wanted to
7 understand who they were, who was in control, and
8 how the organization will be governed. That
9 document is permissive, but --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: They're all shaking their
11 heads behind you. I'm just curious. Do you think
12 you could be comfortable by the 23rd?
13 MS. CHASTAIN: I'm aware of that. They do it
14 every single time, but unfortunately, the facts are
15 that they were contacted with the understanding and
16 with the desire that these documents be submitted,
17 and failure to do so would be at their peril.
18 With respect to whether we can get comfortable
19 with this, certainly it's going to require board
20 action because the district board is entitled and
21 has a statutory duty to monitor --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely. That's why I
23 asked that question.
24 MS. CHASTAIN: -- the corporate governance, as
25 well as the budget matters, and certainly there's a
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1 number of issues that still need to be resolved.
2 Certain matters within the budget need to be
3 corrected.
4 We don't know where the facility is, whether
5 it fits within desegregation plans, for example.
6 These are important components to be considered by
7 the district. Whether this can be done for the
8 first day of school, which I believe is August
9 15th, is questionable.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: But not out of the question,
11 just questionable.
12 MS. CHASTAIN: Extremely questionable.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: General, do you have any
14 questions on the budget?
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I've got a quick
16 question to the young lady there. You used the
17 term, the names that "might." That was your
18 phrase, might be on the board of directors; so you
19 acknowledge that that list is a might list. It's
20 not the final list.
21 MS. CHASTAIN: It depends which list we're
22 talking about. With respect to --
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You used the term
24 "might." Did you do that intentionally or
25 unintentionally?
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1 MS. CHASTAIN: I believe it was
2 unintentionally because when you look at --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It was just a question.
4 MS. CHASTAIN: Yeah. -- the filed articles of
5 incorporation, there is a specific list of
6 directors.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand, but you
8 used the term, "might." I was just curious as to
9 why you used it.
10 MS. CHASTAIN: Anything else?
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: On the budget, compared
12 to this -- this is a draft budget, and my question
13 really is, have you finalized the budget? Dr.
14 Norman perhaps or whomever?
15 DR. NORMAN: We have a final budget.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Does it look different
17 than this? You've got two budgets here.
18 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So everybody
20 understands, you've got your start-up budget, which
21 is the $50,000 budget.
22 DR. NORMAN: It's somewhat different. Let me
23 explain to you that you are asked to make a budget
24 out of a certain amount of money that's generated
25 by FTE; so you try to fit everything into that, but
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1 that is not a final budget.
2 There is always more money needed that you
3 will have to get that you will have to raise
4 yourself that will not be generated by FTE. What I
5 was trying to do -- what we did, I got a CPA to do
6 this.
7 What we were trying to do was give them a
8 budget, a tentative budget. It does not say this
9 is a final budget. It says a tentative budget.
10 That's what it reads. On the other hand, why was
11 that budget and everything else approved and
12 printed in the Florida Times Union as being
13 approved when, in fact, it turned around and
14 changed?
15 You see it was printed in the Florida Times
16 Union twice as being approved, and another thing I
17 would like to say about them informing me about the
18 articles of incorporation -- I wish Ms. Evelyn
19 Toots was here because she told me on the two calls
20 that I was supposedly to have received from Ms.
21 Reynolds.
22 I did receive a call from Ms. Reynolds on the
23 22nd, and the meeting was held on the 23rd. She
24 told me that Ms. Reynolds was writing some articles
25 of incorporation that would be acceptable by the
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1 applicant and the school board.
2 She was going to put some legal language in
3 there. See, this is what Ms. Toots told me, and I
4 called Ms. Toots on two different occasions, and I
5 never received it. She told me -- she said, I'll
6 get back to you. She did get back to me. She
7 said, I don't know. Ms. Reynolds said that it's
8 not completed yet.
9 They played games with me right up to the
10 22nd. I received a call from Ms. Reynolds. She
11 called and she asked me if I intended to get a
12 separate articles of incorporation for the
13 Jacksonville Learning Institute, and I told her,
14 yes.
15 She said, well, I want to know in case the
16 board asks for it, I can tell them that you are
17 going to get them. Okay. So then I contacted that
18 very same day, on the 22nd, Mr. Lee Jones, who told
19 me -- he said all I have to do is to go over to
20 Tallahassee, and I will get it, and I will bring it
21 back.
22 The night of the 23rd he did not show up; so I
23 did not have it then. We have them now. It was
24 allowable to date them back five days; so as of
25 February 23rd, the articles of incorporation are
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1 there.
2 The board of directors, the governance board
3 is in place, and we also had the same members with
4 the addition of two, and we dropped two members.
5 And I stated in the proposal that we would be
6 adding some additional ones, and some would be
7 deleted because of term limitations, and this is
8 what took place.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'm still asking about
11 the budget. This was a proposed budget that was
12 submitted.
13 DR. NORMAN: Yes, tentative.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I presume that you
15 are prepared to submit a final budget on the 14th
16 of July.
17 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: My question is, how
19 does it compare to the proposed budget based on
20 some of the feedback that you've received from the
21 school board? Is it the same as the one I'm
22 looking at right now as the proposed budget?
23 DR. NORMAN: No, it's not.
24 (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)
25 DR. NORMAN: No, it's not. We have some more
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1 things that we added into the budget.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Expenses? More expenses or
3 more revenue?
4 DR. NORMAN: No. More revenue. We have some
5 other things that we needed to add, and on one item
6 when they're talking about the rental of the
7 facility, the facility rental is even lower than
8 what we submitted in that budget because the
9 facility has to have some renovations done, and we
10 have people who will do the renovations.
11 I'm not going to talk anymore because I'm
12 rattling on, but I could go on --
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But you do have a final
14 budget --
15 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- that does recognize
17 some of the comments from the school board?
18 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You are prepared to
20 submit that on the 14th --
21 DR. NORMAN: I'm prepared.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and you are prepared
23 to operate starting in September or late August?
24 DR. NORMAN: Yes, I am.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You do have your
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1 start-up budget, and you have the funds in place
2 for the start-up budget?
3 DR. NORMAN: I could not get the start-up
4 budget from the state until I got conditional
5 approval, but I do have some other moneys promised
6 to me by the corporation that would help me --
7 (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So your $50,000
9 start-up budget is --
10 DR. NORMAN: $50,000 plus two $10,000 will be
11 $70,000.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Your start-up budget is
13 now $70,000?
14 DR. NORMAN: Yes. They give you $50,000.
15 Then you can apply for two additional grants of
16 $10,000 a piece. The minute I get the conditional
17 approval, then I can apply for that.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So your start-up budget
19 is not $50,000. It's $70,000.
20 DR. NORMAN: It will be.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: The good news is it's $70,000
22 revenue.
23 DR. NORMAN: Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's providing --
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: The last one, it
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1 didn't look like there was any hope of working it
2 out. This one does seem like it. There is some
3 hope of working it out, and legal counsel and the
4 board was missing, I think, the first go-round.
5 I would recommend that we remand this back in
6 hopes that they can give it one more shot at trying
7 to approve this.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do I hear a second?
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
11 (No response.)
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Remember, what we're doing
13 here, ma'am, is we're remanding it back to the
14 school district for you to work out your issues.
15 They still have the right to reject you again,
16 although it would be disappointing if it
17 consistently happened after all the good things
18 they said about your proposal in February.
19 Subject to the budget and governance
20 questions, which were what were brought up as
21 concerns, that's what would happen if we vote in
22 favor of remanding it back to the school district.
23 Any other discussion?
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: With the
25 recommendation of approval, as long as they take
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1 care of the shortages.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: They're going to have to take
3 care of the concerns of the school district which
4 is how the process works. All in favor, say aye.
5 (Affirmative response.)
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
7 (No response.)
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion passes.
9 (Attorney General Butterworth exits room.)
10 (The Department of Education Agenda is
11 continued in Volume 2 without omissions.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF LEON:
5 I, NANCY P. VETTERICK, do hereby certify that
6 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
7 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
8 notes were thereafter translated under my supervision;
9 and the foregoing pages numbered 1 through 198 are a true
10 and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.
11 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
12 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
13 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or
14 financially interested in the foregoing action.
15 DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF JUNE, 2000.
16
17
18
19 ___________________________
NANCY P. VETTERICK
20 100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FL 32301
21 (850) 878-2221
22
23
24
25
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1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
_________________________________________________________
4
Representing:
5
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
BOARD OF TRUSTEES
7 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
__________________________________________________________
8 VOLUME 2
(PAGES 200 THROUGH 335)
9
The above agencies came to be heard before
10 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The
11 Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, June 13, 2000,
commencing at approximately 9:10 a.m.
12
13
14
Reported by:
15
NANCY P. VETTERICK
16 Registered Professional Reporter
Certified Court Reporter
17 Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
18
19
20
21
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
22 100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
23 850.878.2221
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 JEB BUSH
Governor
4
BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
7
KATHERINE HARRIS
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
10
BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 TOM GALLAGHER
Commissioner of Education
13
* * *
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION (CONT'D):
(Presented by Wayne Pierson)
4
4 Remanded 231
5 5 Denied 244
6 Withdrawn 244
6 7 Approved 245
8 Approved 246
7 9 Approved 254
10 Approved 246
8 11 Approved 253
12 Approved 324, 330,
9 331, 331
13 Deferred 332
10 14 Approved 332
15 Approved 332
11 16 Approved 333
17 Approved 333
12 18 Approved 333
19 Approved 334
13 20 Approved 334
14
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 335
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16
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22
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1 (Continued from Volume 1 without omissions.)
2 P R O C E E D I N G S
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Onward.
4 MR. PIERSON: Item 4 is the Love for Learning
5 Academy Charter School versus Duval County School
6 Board. For the Love for Learning Academy Charter
7 School is Dr. Carolyn Love.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Love, where are you?
9 DR. LOVE: I'm trying to get through.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. You kind of got a
11 sense of where we're going with this stuff.
12 DR. LOVE: Yes. Good afternoon, Governor Jeb
13 Bush and Cabinet Members. Love for Learning,
14 Incorporation thanks you for this opportunity to
15 address the concerns of the issues of the denial of
16 our charter school application.
17 As stated in the previous cases, the same
18 three generic questions of denial was sent to Love
19 for Learning, and as we began the review project in
20 November of '99, and we were actually denied on
21 February 23rd, 60 days after the allotted time.
22 We exceeded the 60-day period. There are only
23 two occasions that staff members from Duval County
24 contacted us concerning any additional information,
25 and when that request was given. All of the
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1 information was given promptly.
2 We are concerned about the unfair assumptions
3 that have been made concerning our governance
4 structure and our projected budgets for Love for
5 Learning. We're very dismayed of the clarity
6 regarding the items not sought by Duval County
7 during the review period.
8 And we're convinced that Love for Learning
9 Academy has a sound governance and management
10 structure that will enable us to provide a quality
11 educational opportunity for at-risk students in
12 Duval County.
13 We ask today that you grant us the opportunity
14 to accomplish our mission. When we look at the
15 governance board of Love for Learning, in no way
16 did Love for Learning intertwine with the
17 operations of a church, that permitting it to
18 operate as a public school would in any means
19 violate the state constitution, the Florida
20 Statutes, or the First Amendment of the U.S.
21 Constitution.
22 As a faith-based initiative, working as a
23 collaborative partner in the community, Love for
24 Learning Academy, its governance board and its
25 operations was never intended to be intertwined
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1 with the operations of Truth for Living Ministries.
2 According to the Florida Statute 228.056,
3 charter school proposal 3, it states there clearly
4 that the charter school proposal for application
5 can be made by an individual, teachers, parents,
6 groups of individuals, municipality or a legal
7 entity organized under the law of this state.
8 A group of four individuals from Truth for
9 Living Ministries, the founding initial board,
10 pooled their resources and their thoughts and their
11 vision together as a faith-based initiative to
12 partner with the community and the Duval County
13 School Board for a charter school program.
14 We feel that Duval County School Board members
15 had a problem distinguishing between the original
16 founding board and then the development, and the
17 formation of the governance board, that will be
18 responsible for the governance of the charter
19 program.
20 As one of the prerequisites that's been
21 previously stated in the proposal, that the
22 articles of incorporation as a nonprofit
23 organization be included, those documents were
24 included. We included Love for Learning Academy as
25 a -- we documented it as a legal document for a new
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1 separate and a distinct legal entity that would be
2 a charter school named, Love for Learning.
3 The church, Truth for Living Ministries, had
4 no intentions of operating Love for Learning
5 Academy; so I want to make it very clear that the
6 founding board, the incorporators did indeed
7 consist of three of the persons who are employed by
8 Truth for Living Ministries, but they served as the
9 visionary.
10 Myself, Dr. Carolyn Love, who will serve as
11 the academy's executive director, was fully aware
12 that my position with the academy would preclude me
13 from holding a position as a board of directors; so
14 based on my background and experience in education
15 for some 20-plus years, I served the community in
16 the private school sector, the public school
17 sector, district level assignment, as well as a
18 middle school and an elementary school principal
19 assignment.
20 We've worked very close with the City of
21 Jacksonville in many areas serving as board members
22 for nonprofit boards, working in -- understanding
23 that we operate on a non-compensation status, and
24 we've worked and presently are working in the City
25 of Jacksonville working with Healthy Families
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1 Jacksonville since 1995.
2 Our annual budget with that particular grant
3 organization is $4,000 -- $470,000 per year
4 covering five zip codes in Jacksonville. We've
5 worked with the Adult and Family Literacy Program
6 since 1996. Our annual budget is $40,000 there.
7 We're collaborative partners with the Enable
8 Abstinence Program as a service provider. We've
9 been doing that since 1996, and we also work with
10 the Teens Pregancy Program. We're presently
11 receiving sources of funding from the Jacksonville
12 Children's Commission, the City of Jacksonville,
13 Ounce of Prevention Funds of Florida, and the
14 Jacksonville Community Foundation.
15 We have behind us four annual governmental or
16 yellow book audits completed, and I stated these
17 areas of involvement so you would understand our
18 place, our potential and our purpose as a
19 faith-based initiative in the community.
20 We look to work as a collaborative partner
21 with Duval County Schools. I'd also like to point
22 out that the 2000 Duval County Charter School
23 application stated instances where final
24 documentation -- and we were led to believe that
25 the July 14th, 2000 date would serve as that date
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1 where the final documentations, under conditional
2 approval, would give us time to pull together
3 anything or work on anything that the County was
4 requesting of us.
5 As we worked previously, anything that was
6 requested of us, we provided, but as it progressed,
7 the later part of the application process in
8 February and definitely after the Impact situation,
9 Impact Charter School situation, it became an issue
10 with the board members, the founding incorporators
11 and then the governance board, which we were led to
12 believe, and following the stated outline of the
13 charter application, that those are two separate
14 entities.
15 So in following with the previous
16 guidelines -- it also said that Duval County stated
17 that we lacked satisfactory evidence regarding
18 feasibility to operate a functioning school as set
19 forth by the proposed budget in the application.
20 I'd like to address that by saying that the
21 proposal for Love for Learning Academy, all of the
22 areas of the proposal was addressed, and we would
23 like to reiterate that during the February 23rd
24 meeting, the first opportunity that we ever had to
25 address the school board members was during that
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1 time.
2 And the question that was posed to us at that
3 time was a question about the rent of the
4 facilities that would be used for the charter
5 school. It was explained that rent was included in
6 the budget under capital outlay, that category.
7 Nothing further was asked concerning the rent,
8 but I'd like to clarify for your hearing and to
9 further explain that the capital outlay budget
10 included a full-service lease payment agreement
11 which includes the furniture, the equipment
12 leasing, the equipment maintenance, pest control,
13 waste removal, water, sewage, electrical,
14 telephones, security services, cafeteria setup, and
15 dispensary.
16 This three-year proposed budget in our capital
17 outlay outlined how our funds would be allocated to
18 cover our rent at that time, and that's stated very
19 clearly in our proposed budget under the general
20 support section that capital outlay would cover
21 those things.
22 When asked that at the board meeting, we
23 stated clearly that we had a full-service lease.
24 It was our understanding that regardless of where
25 any other charter school would be located, the
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1 facilities would have a cost that would accompany
2 it.
3 Some moneys must be expended to either buy,
4 lease, rent or construct, renovate or simply bring
5 a structure up to building code standards. In the
6 most cost-effective approach that was deemed
7 honorable by Love for Learning, was to lease space
8 in non-permanent modular buildings that could be
9 expanded or redesigned to fit the needs of our
10 growing population.
11 (Attorney General Butterworth enters room.)
12 DR. LOVE: These dollars that we would save in
13 making this decision would be better used --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Love, would you close it
15 down a little bit? Are you close to the end here?
16 DR. LOVE: Sure. I'm at the formal closing.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
18 DR. LOVE: We would use that money that would
19 possibly go for rent, we would use that to enhance
20 our program. Our mission remains the same. Our
21 vision and purpose for Love for Learning Academy is
22 to provide a supportive and a stimulating
23 environment for students, whether at-risk and --
24 from the various communities.
25 As I close, our immediate goal that we're
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1 asking is to build a foundation for future academic
2 success. We believe that the excellence and
3 quality in education is possible regardless of the
4 demographic or social economic boundaries.
5 Our mission is clear. We look forward to
6 making a difference in our community by educating
7 our students through programs that are difficult in
8 the traditional class setting. Thank you for the
9 opportunity to demonstrate our commitment to this
10 project. Thank you very much.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. Are you
12 ready to go on August 15th?
13 DR. LOVE: We could open in August.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: You have the facility in
15 place?
16 DR. LOVE: We have facilities, yes, sir.
17 MR. MUELLER: This is Ernst Mueller again for
18 the School Board. Governor and Members of the
19 Board, at the outset, I just want to address
20 briefly the process here so that I think we can --
21 so that we can clarify what I perceive to be a
22 misunderstanding.
23 When the board takes action on an application
24 originally, as it did on February 23rd in this
25 instance, it is the last crack that the board gets
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1 at approving whether or not this applicant is going
2 to go forward as a charter school.
3 Once they -- and the statute does not talk
4 about conditional approval. It talks about
5 approving the application. Once an application is
6 approved, the applicant has a right, a vested
7 right, to fight for its charter.
8 What happens then afterwards is that the board
9 and charter applicant get together and negotiate a
10 contract or a charter, as it were, and then the
11 final charter goes back to the board for approval.
12 The point of that is it's the last time, the last
13 chance the board has to really know what they're
14 going to allow, who they're going to allow to get
15 into a charter is prior to that initial approval.
16 And that is why in these cases -- and the
17 board's requirement in all cases -- they want to
18 know who are we dealing with, and that was the
19 reason for wanting the corporate vehicle, or
20 whatever the vehicle was going to be, that was
21 going to function.
22 Now, with respect to the July 14th issue, I
23 think that is a bogus issue when the board, in
24 fact, asked for these documents prior to the
25 approval time because it wanted to know. To come
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1 in after the fact and after they've, in fact,
2 submitted articles of incorporation, and to say,
3 well, you should have allowed them to submit them
4 by July 14th, is kind if a moot issue when we dealt
5 with what they actually put in front of us.
6 With respect to this particular school --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I show you this because
8 maybe this is a forged document or something?
9 MR. MUELLER: No. I've got it in front of me.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is this the school application
11 for charter --
12 MR. MUELLER: Well, where it says, final
13 documentation to be submitted prior to the opening
14 of the charter school?
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, and the sentence before
16 that. It's a little different. May be granted
17 prior to getting the documents. That's the point
18 I'm making.
19 MR. MUELLER: Well, and then it goes on and --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: So if you wanted to, you could
21 have approved the subject getting the documents.
22 You decided to do something different. That's all
23 we're saying. Isn't that right? It's on your own
24 application.
25 MR. MUELLER: Well, I think that the board can
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1 change the application process at any point in
2 time, but to -- you have a process in effect where
3 the staff asks for documents. Documents are
4 submitted.
5 Yes. The board could on February 23rd have
6 waived the requirement and said, we'll let this
7 thing pass and try to get in before July 14th.
8 Yes, that was a possibility.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's on your own application.
10 TREASURER NELSON: If you're filling out the
11 application, you're going to be under the
12 impression by reading that that you don't have to
13 have the final documents till July 14th. That's
14 the impression I'd sure get.
15 MR. MUELLER: Not when they have asked you for
16 those documents, and they have, in fact, submitted
17 them.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I know it's been
19 asked and submitted, but it still says to me -- I
20 don't have to really have them finalized until July
21 14th. I mean, you-all could change your
22 application if that's not what you wanted.
23 MR. MUELLER: It says, may be granted. It
24 puts on the board, not on this board, but on the
25 Duval County School Board.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I know that, but
2 don't you think that's a little misleading to the
3 applicant?
4 MR. MUELLER: I don't think it was misleading
5 at the time. I think it gave the board the
6 opportunity to waive certain things, and the board
7 didn't do it.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think it's the
9 other way around. I think that -- I think it's the
10 other way around. I think that the board can make
11 you put stuff in when they don't tell you you have
12 to have it, and use that for an excuse to deny, is
13 the way I look at it.
14 MR. MUELLER: I think the key to this was that
15 the board wanted to know who it was dealing with.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's fair. Well, let's talk
17 about this specific application.
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I have one more
19 question. It sounded to me like the comments that
20 the school board members were making -- this is my
21 interpretation of it -- was that they felt that
22 they had no choice, that since the incorporation
23 had not been filed, they had no choice. They had
24 to deny it.
25 It's just my interpretation. I wasn't there,
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1 but I do think this, as you just said, it's crucial
2 that you-all know who are on the governing board;
3 so that brings us to this next case.
4 MR. MUELLER: Right. If you take a look at
5 this particular board that was set up for this Love
6 for Learning School, it consisted of four people.
7 It consisted of the pastor of the Truth for Living
8 Ministries, Dr. Love. It consisted of his wife,
9 the associate pastor of the Truth for Living
10 Ministries. It consisted of the church secretary,
11 who reported to the other two, and one other
12 person.
13 Now then, if you take a look at the
14 administrative structure of this particular
15 operation that was submitted, you have the
16 executive director of the school, who is the
17 associate pastor, Dr. Love, who was up here
18 speaking, an employee of the church, not an
19 employee of the proposed charter school, and, of
20 course, accountable as an employee of the church
21 and the pastor, who is administratively her
22 superior, and you have the principal reporting to
23 Dr. Love.
24 So on the board, you had a majority, 75
25 percent church employees dominated by the pastor,
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1 who is their administrative boss. At the
2 administrative level, you had a principal reporting
3 to Dr. Love, who was a church employee and who
4 reported to the pastor.
5 So you had a total control by church
6 employees, not school employees, and you add to
7 that the fact that this school was about to be
8 located on the premises of the church, and the
9 other side of this is the budget, the facility
10 budget for the three years in question.
11 The first year was 252,000, the other -- the
12 next year, 345,000, the next year, 374,000,
13 totaling to very close to a million dollars, about
14 950 or something, over the three years. This was
15 going to be used to build the structure on church
16 property.
17 Now, it is my belief -- and I wrote in the
18 brief, that this arrangement really violates both
19 the Florida Law and federal constitutional law
20 relating to separation of the church and state.
21 First of all, the Florida Constitution just said
22 directly in section 3 that no revenue shall be
23 taken from the public treasury directly or
24 indirectly in aid of any church or sectarian
25 institution.
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1 I submit that this, by its very structure,
2 where church personnel controlled it from top to
3 bottom, had to be a sectarian institution unless
4 you wore blinders. Florida Statute 228.0563
5 provides that a parochial school shall not be
6 eligible for charter school status.
7 How is this charter and the structure they
8 gave us not a parochial school? I do not
9 understand it.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: There are church-sponsored
11 charter schools spawned by churches. You know,
12 they're sponsored by similar kinds of structures.
13 Are all those unconstitutional?
14 MR. MUELLER: No. No. This could be fixed.
15 This could be fixed by providing a board that has a
16 non-pastor, nonemployee majority. I mean this can
17 be fixed, but it wasn't fixed.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: What would happen if there
19 were, in addition to that, if there was a reversion
20 clause in the title to the building that was being
21 built with public dollars, should the charter no
22 longer --
23 MR. MUELLER: Well, that --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- would that be another
25 element of how you could fix it?
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1 MR. MUELLER: Well, that was a second problem,
2 and it was a separate problem, but it compounded
3 the issue. The problem here was that these funds
4 were going to be used to build the facility on the
5 church property. Now --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: The facility of the church,
7 but on church property, right?
8 MR. MUELLER: Well, the problem was that, you
9 know, if you had a reasonable rental pay on an
10 annual basis for this property, whatever the
11 reasonable rent for the building, you know, then
12 the thing -- you could say that, yes, they're
13 simply paying rent for a building located on the
14 church property to an institution that happens to
15 be a church, but that's not what you had here.
16 You had a facility budget that said nothing
17 about rent, nothing about lease. It just had a
18 block of money that was going to build this
19 facility on church property. Now, they did file an
20 amendment to the original articles providing for a
21 reversion, but the case law is pretty clear.
22 I can turn to the federal case law that when
23 you have property of value, that they're going
24 to -- that the church is going to end up with as a
25 result of receiving these funds, that it is
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1 unconstitutional.
2 They're basically -- other than the Florida
3 Statutes which I think are pretty direct -- there's
4 a case I discuss in the memorandum called Lemon
5 versus Kurtzman, which indicates that you cannot
6 have excessive entanglement between this church and
7 the school.
8 (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)
9 Lemon versus Kurtzman was about a case
10 involving Rhode Island and Pennsylvania statutes,
11 which provided for assistance to private schools
12 including Catholic schools specifically, parochial
13 schools, and in that situation, what the Court
14 condemned was the fact that the government would
15 have to -- which was doling out the funds, and in
16 this instance, the school board would be the
17 government -- had to closely monitor the situation,
18 the books and everything else, in order to ensure
19 that they did not trespass the boundaries in
20 conducting the activities.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: When you denied this
22 application, did you include these explanations or
23 just the generic denial that the other three
24 applicants went through?
25 MR. MUELLER: Let me give a two-part answer.
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1 The entire discussion at the board meeting revolved
2 around this very issue. Are they building a church
3 facility with public funds? Who does Dr. Love, the
4 pastor, report to? He reports to God, and there
5 was a ha-ha-ha-ha, and God is present here.
6 But the entire discussion was about --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: We hope he's here.
8 MR. MUELLER: Well, yes, he was there, and we
9 hope he's here, too, but the entire issue revolved
10 around this very thing. Now, the letter in
11 question had the same, as you say, generic
12 comments, and I agree it could have been more
13 specific, but I do think that squarely within
14 number 2, which talks about the governmental
15 structure, which is what we're talking about here,
16 there was notice between that and the context of
17 why the board voted as to what we are objecting to.
18 I just -- beyond --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think we've got a pretty
20 good understanding of the concerns of the school
21 district on this. Is this -- similar question to
22 applicant number 2. Is this resolvable if again,
23 the school district has a policy of embracing the
24 charter schools and wants to make sure that they're
25 done right, and all the things that have expressed?
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1 Is this resolvable by the time that you could
2 have the school start in mid-August? The two
3 questions, I assume, are the separation from the
4 church of this institution, both structurally as
5 well as substantively, and the question of public
6 dollars going to a church facility.
7 MR. MUELLER: You know, there is nothing that
8 is not ultimately resolvable, and I don't think
9 you've ever had any application come before you
10 that wasn't ultimately resolvable one way or the
11 other, this one is no different.
12 So, yes, I mean, it is resolvable, and these
13 two issues can be resolved by diversifying the
14 board on the one hand, creating a financing
15 structure which -- changing the administrative
16 reporting structure, the second thing; third thing,
17 changing the budgetary setup so that you have a
18 lease setup that is a reasonable annual lease
19 payment to the church for the facility rather than
20 just a lump sum which appears to build the
21 facilities.
22 I do want to say that, you know, we have not
23 seen any flexibility from the other side on this.
24 I seriously doubt -- I mean, yes, it can be fixed.
25 I don't think it's going to be fixed so they can
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1 start school in August. That's my opinion. I
2 don't think it'll get fixed that fast.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are there any other issues
4 that the school district has concerns about,
5 commitment to a core curriculum, the competency of
6 the leadership of the school, the budget issues,
7 again, operating budget?
8 Are there any other issues out there? This
9 budget looks a little bit better, I think, in terms
10 of its realistic amount of money they're probably
11 going to get through the FTE formula and the like.
12 Are there any other issues other than those two?
13 MR. MUELLER: Well, this -- these were the key
14 issues and were the reason for rejection; so that's
15 why we focused on them. I think there are small
16 issues. There are things that need to be resolved
17 which happens with all these schools in the charter
18 negotiation process.
19 I don't believe the charter can be negotiated
20 overnight. I think it's going to take 30 to 60
21 days to get that charter negotiated. Thirty to 60
22 days down the road we're in August. I don't think
23 you can start up a charter school.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: In 30 days, we're in July.
25 MR. MUELLER: Well, all right, whatever it is.
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1 I don't think it gets done this year. I do think
2 it gets done if these people are persistent
3 because, as you said yourself, there is some
4 quality here, and these things can be fixed.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions or comments?
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, Governor, it
7 does -- I think it's a wonderful proposal here, but
8 it's a church school the way it's proposed.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, let's let the applicant
10 comment on that because that's been --
11 DR. LOVE: Please. Thank you.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Clearly we can't. We could
13 not authorize or remand back to the school district
14 a church school. That kind of does violate the law
15 of the land.
16 DR. LOVE: Thank you, Mr. Governor. In
17 submitting this application, the purpose of
18 incorporating Love for Learning as a separate legal
19 entity, that was the purpose of separating it from
20 the church.
21 The church, I don't feel, should be punished
22 for having a vision for the community as a
23 faith-based collaborative partnership. Once Love
24 for Learning is approved, their application for the
25 proposal to the school board, Truth for Living
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1 backs off.
2 They've donated 3 to 4 acres for the school to
3 reside on. The school will not be something that
4 the state or the government builds for the church.
5 It's modular buildings that are relocatable. As
6 soon as the project is over --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Would the land be owned by the
8 incorporated school entity or by the church?
9 DR. LOVE: The land is owned by the church
10 that's being donated to the school.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, if it's donated, would
12 it be transferred as well?
13 DR. LOVE: That's possible. We've never been
14 asked that before, but that's possible. It could
15 be worked out. There's 17 and a half acres there,
16 and 3 to 4 acres would be the part that's allocated
17 for the school.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: How about your curriculum?
19 (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)
20 DR. LOVE: The curriculum, we're using the
21 Florida Sunshine curriculum. Our curriculum will
22 be based solely on what Duval County is doing, but
23 then as an innovative approach for our charter
24 school, we've incorporated fine arts, physical
25 fitness, music and technology as our innovative
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1 approach to the at-risk student.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Love, this may sound a
3 little bit crazy, but if the spirit moves a
4 teacher, would they start talking about the Holy
5 Ghost in the classroom?
6 DR. LOVE: We have a very trained,
7 professional and competent staff. We're able to
8 control that, and we've not hired any staff. We've
9 not hired a principal, as stated earlier, but in
10 our selection process, we'll be very mindful --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there anything in your
12 application that would give someone concern other
13 than the colocation of the school on a church
14 facility? Any other legitimate concern of the fact
15 that sponsors are the leaders of the church that --
16 DR. LOVE: Well, let me --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it would be religious?
18 DR. LOVE: Let me address that, Governor. The
19 initial founding board, the incorporators, are
20 Truth for Living Ministries staff members. The
21 governance board of the school has been expanded.
22 That's a separate entity.
23 The application asks for two separate
24 entities, and I've stated in my approach earlier
25 that I believe that's the point of confusion with
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1 the school board, that they did not understand the
2 process of this application in asking for two
3 different things.
4 The founding board is the persons who had the
5 vision to initiate this. Then the governance board
6 will operate the day-to-day governance and the
7 overseeing of the schools and the school matters,
8 and two different boards.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But who chooses the
10 governance board?
11 DR. LOVE: The governance board was selected
12 by the initial incorporators. One of the things
13 that they asked for in the school application is
14 how do you propose to keep the continuity of the
15 vision, the initial vision, going?
16 You've got to have someone with a vision, and
17 then you've got to have someone to work the vision;
18 so having persons who are part of the vision on the
19 board is our means for keeping the continuity of
20 the vision.
21 The board, it's a very extensive board, not
22 just church members. Now, the assumption from the
23 school board to state that it's only church
24 members, that is not our governance board. Our
25 governance board consists of 11 -- 12 persons,
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1 varied backgrounds and community involvement.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions?
3 (No response.)
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Anybody like to make a motion
5 or a comment?
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Doctor, are all
7 the board members members of the church?
8 DR. LOVE: No, sir.
9 MR. MUELLER: May I just make one comment?
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
11 MR. MUELLER: She's not talking about the
12 board that was presented to the board on February
13 23rd. She's talking about another board that
14 arrived here February 23rd or thereabouts, and the
15 board never saw when it was taking its action; so
16 there's 11 or 12 people out there on this new group
17 that we really don't know anything about.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: What I don't understand is
19 this, Duval County has charter schools. They had
20 one bad one, a really bad one, a doozy of a bad one
21 in terms of loss of money and the embarrassment and
22 the like, but for the sake of and your support of
23 charter schools, why wouldn't you accept the good
24 intentions of these applicants as it relates to
25 making modifications as per your request.
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1 I mean, I don't understand why February 23rd
2 comes, they make their -- they modify their
3 governance structure to accommodate your concerns,
4 which were legitimate, and we're here in June and
5 you're all insisting, well, because by February
6 23rd, this stuff wasn't done, we've rejected it,
7 and we keep rejecting it.
8 MR. MUELLER: Well, I think where we are is
9 that the board on February 23rd has no idea what's
10 coming down the pike in the future. It has to act
11 on what it has, and it's -- in hindsight, to say,
12 well, two weeks later this thing arrived in the
13 mail with 10 new board members, and we don't know
14 who those people are.
15 We've got to begin investigating them. At
16 that point, the process, however, was over.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's the problem,
18 the process in your mind was over, and I think that
19 what we expect is that the people are allowed to --
20 this a new -- this is a new business starting. New
21 businesses don't start with 100 percent, everything
22 all done, here it is, and turn and click your
23 fingers, and it's gone.
24 I mean, there's an evolution here, and from
25 the application, it would appear to anybody reading
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1 it that it's part of the evolution. They put in
2 their application, and you work with them, and by
3 the 23rd of July, before they can open up, all the
4 final things are going to be done, and the contract
5 can be signed.
6 What the school board basically did is on
7 February -- it appears to me -- on February 23rd,
8 freaked out and said, okay, we're not going to do
9 any of these because there's a whole bunch of stuff
10 we don't know about.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did the superintendent approve
12 this or recommended approval? I'm sorry.
13 DR. LOVE: Yes.
14 MR. MUELLER: Yes, he did. Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, we've got
16 one more to go; so I'm going to move that we send
17 this one back to be renegotiated with the school
18 board also.
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
21 All in -- any other discussion?
22 (No response.)
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor say aye.
24 (Affirmative response.)
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
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1 (No response.)
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Passes. It's remanded back to
3 the school district for further negotiation. We
4 can't approve the charter. These are -- it's the
5 responsibility of the school district to do that.
6 Thank you-all very much for coming, and I
7 appreciate -- one more, I know.
8 We're three-quarters of the way through. I
9 want to thank the Duval County School District for
10 their patience on this.
11 MR. PIERSON: For the record, out of the
12 statute, the state board shall remand the
13 application to the district school board with its
14 written recommendation that the district's board
15 approve or deny the application consistent with the
16 State Board's decision.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We recommend that
18 they work with the newly submitted materials and
19 other materials that they need in order to approve
20 the charter. Am I correct?
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's right. In good faith,
22 it will be approved, or it won't. Charters need to
23 work in good faith so the process works. If not
24 we're going to have to go to the Legislature and --
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We'll start having to
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1 do charters. That's where we really don't want to
2 be. That's where it's going to end up. I'm not
3 looking forward to that.
4 MR. PIERSON: Item 5 is Westside Academy
5 Charter School versus Duval County School Board.
6 Sharon Bell representing Westside Academy Charter
7 School.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
9 MS. BELL: First, I would like to say thank
10 you for another opportunity to represent Westside
11 Academy Charter School. To the Governor, Cabinet,
12 Cabinet aides, and all representatives of the
13 Department of Education, on behalf of Westside
14 Academy Charter School, we, the founding board and
15 board of directors, has been dedicated and
16 committed toward developing a proposal that would
17 enhance educational opportunities for students of
18 Duval County School System.
19 At Westside Academy, our goal will be to
20 continue working toward a future for all students
21 to become productive and appreciative in the world
22 in which we live. As I stand here before you
23 today, I can honestly say Duval County has not
24 given Westside Academy a fair and equal
25 opportunity.
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1 In our proposal, we clearly stated the
2 principal and the vice principal would oversee the
3 management operations of the school. As we closely
4 review our charter application, the application
5 stated the articles of incorporation would not be
6 due until July 14th, 2000.
7 Westside Academy are planning to comply by
8 this date. On November 15th, 1999, Westside
9 Academy submitted a timely application. After our
10 presentation, the school board promised to notify
11 us within 10 days.
12 We never received notification. Instead I
13 received a phone call at home around six o'clock
14 p.m. telling me to meet with Ms. Toots, who is the
15 coordinator of charter schools of Duval County, to
16 receive by notification whether I would be approved
17 or denied.
18 Instead I received a letter with 15 amendments
19 to do to pass back in to her the very next day,
20 which would have been December 21st. I thought
21 that was entirely unfair. Westside Academy was
22 recommended by the review committee and the
23 superintendent of schools.
24 On February 23rd, the school board denied our
25 application for approval. The question that comes
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1 to my mind today, how can we gain approval from the
2 superintendent and gain approval from the review
3 committee and not gain approval from our local
4 school board?
5 Something is wrong with our school system.
6 Westside Academy also submitted a proposed budget
7 to the Duval County School System on November 15th,
8 1999. After a careful review by the coordinator
9 and the review committee, our budget met the
10 criteria for approval.
11 No one -- let me emphasize. No one ever, ever
12 questioned the budget until the night of February
13 23rd, 1999 (sic), the night the school board denied
14 our application. Again, the charter application
15 states that the updated budget would not be due
16 until July 14th, 2000.
17 On May 16th, 2000, I attended the school board
18 meeting. I sat in the audience, and I listened to
19 the school board members slander prospective
20 charter schools. One board member said we want
21 quality people.
22 When I heard the remark, I knew all of us were
23 victims of an unjust system. Each perspective
24 applicant that is present here today comes from a
25 well educated family who can bring a wealth of
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1 knowledge to our school system.
2 Some has been recognized by the former Mayor
3 of the City of Jacksonville for outstanding
4 community service. We are a great body of people.
5 As I leave here today, I want Duval County School
6 System to know that Westside Academy Charter School
7 stood the test.
8 We overcame obstacles, an we have faced many
9 challenges. We fought a great fight. Now, we are
10 asking the Governor, the Cabinet, and
11 representatives of the Department of Education to
12 give us a fair and equal opportunity to pursue our
13 future.
14 Westside Academy has worked countless hours,
15 weeks, months and years on our proposal. Our
16 future plan and dream would be to one day be able
17 to open doors for students who deserve a bright
18 future and that would exemplify high academic
19 standards and expectations.
20 Westside Academy Charter School can make a
21 difference in the lives of students, parents and
22 our community. For the record, I would like to
23 speak on the budget. In my proposed budget, I
24 indicated zero for our facility.
25 The reason I indicated zero is because our
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1 facility has been donated by St. Peters Episcopal
2 Church. They will not be charging us a fee. They
3 will also grant moneys from their church to help
4 with Westside Academy.
5 I'm not sure of what the grant will allocate
6 for our budget, but I will submit that to the
7 school board at a later date. At this time, I may
8 entertain any questions that you may have.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: We may -- we'll ask the school
10 district to speak, and then standby.
11 MS. CHASTAIN: Karen Chastain with the Office
12 of General Counsel representing the district.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome back.
14 MS. CHASTAIN: Thank you. First, I'd like to
15 respond to the fairness issue just as a global
16 comment. The district took extreme efforts to
17 permit applicants, who needed to remediate and
18 correct their application, numerous opportunities
19 to amend and resubmit.
20 This particular applicant, after the initial
21 submission, had a lengthy list of deficiencies that
22 required correction, specifically including
23 corporate governance issues and the lack of
24 corporate documents.
25 This applicant resubmitted on two occasions
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1 before it received the staff approval, if you will,
2 before it went to the board. That being said,
3 there is absolutely no reason why each board member
4 can't review the application, can't review the
5 submissions and make it's own determination, within
6 the four corners of the application, as to whether
7 the proposal could be conditionally approved to go
8 forward with charter school negotiations.
9 There were very serious concerns regarding
10 this proposal. One concern, obviously, is the
11 corporate governance and the identity and
12 qualifications of the persons who form the
13 corporation which I'll outline in a few moments.
14 There were even more serious concerns with
15 respect to the budget and the financial feasibility
16 of this applicant being able to operate a
17 functioning charter school.
18 A third concern, in the context of this
19 appeal, is that it's clear that the record in this
20 proceeding is to consist of the application, as was
21 submitted, together with the transcript and the
22 arguments from each party.
23 In this case, however, the applicant has
24 inserted and substituted pages in its articles of
25 incorporation that were not brought before the
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1 board and has made them appear as if that was their
2 initial submittal to the board when, in fact, that
3 was not the case.
4 This lack of candor is viewed very seriously
5 by the district, and I would imagine that it would
6 be in any proceeding. With respect to the
7 corporate governance issues, the initial
8 application, the text of it, contradicts the
9 articles of incorporation that were filed with the
10 Secretary of State and submitted with that
11 application.
12 So immediately you have an inconsistency that
13 requires further explanation. For some reason,
14 which has not been explained, in an amendment to
15 the application, the applicant submitted yet
16 another set of substantively different articles of
17 incorporation, which were not filed, and again, the
18 text of the amendment created yet a fourth
19 standard, if you will, as to how this corporation
20 would be governed and operated and who was in
21 charge, who are they, and who was in control.
22 By the time we got to the February 23rd
23 hearing, it was absolutely unintelligible how this
24 corporation would be operated, what were the rules,
25 who was in charge, what are their qualifications?
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1 It was a seriously moving target.
2 With respect to the budget, when one starts a
3 new business, it is important to be liberal on
4 projecting expenses and conservative on projecting
5 income. This application is neither. Almost 35
6 percent of the projected revenue, 35 percent, would
7 be obtained from private donations or grants, the
8 sources of which were unsubstantiated and
9 speculative, and therefore unverifiable by the
10 district.
11 This is worse than Greater Jacksonville, the
12 first of the charter school appeals, which this
13 board recommended denial. As an example of this,
14 during the February 23rd hearing, the applicant
15 apparently stated that one of the sources of
16 private funding, if you will, would be a MasterCard
17 line of credit.
18 I would submit to you that this is not the
19 basis upon which to operate a charter school. With
20 respect to expenses --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: They stated that at the
22 hearing?
23 MS. CHASTAIN: Yes. It's in the record, and
24 we've included it, our transcript, of the
25 proceedings and our reply. With respect to
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1 expenses, the salary line item was miscalculated
2 and extremely low, such that when you looked at the
3 student/teacher ratio that the applicant stated
4 would be in its charter school, and you calculated
5 what the salaries of the teachers would be, you're
6 at approximately $17,500 salary.
7 That's about $9,000 below market within Duval
8 County for a new teacher.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: How many students were
10 anticipated in the first year?
11 MS. BELL: Sixty.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sixty?
13 MS. BELL: Sixty to 100 students.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: But the budget was based on
15 60?
16 MS. BELL: When we did our amendments, we had
17 to go back and do a correction, and so I put in 100
18 students for that second amendment; so the total
19 would have been 100 students to start.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: So your total budget of
21 $376,000 is based on 100 students?
22 MS. BELL: That's based on the proposed
23 budget, and I told them, when I presented our
24 presentation, that this is only a proposed budget.
25 These are not our final documents on figures to
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1 start up the charter school.
2 I said, I will submit to you a final budget.
3 I did state that clearly on November 15th. I said,
4 this is not our final budget. I will submit to you
5 on July 14th.
6 MS. CHASTAIN: With respect to the application
7 and the representations that were made in the
8 application to the district on February 23rd, the
9 budget that was supplied with that, whether it was
10 a draft budget or tentative, there's an extreme
11 inconsistency an a disconnect as to whether this
12 school could be financially feasible.
13 You have problems, as I mentioned, apparently
14 with teacher salaries. Revenue also included a
15 line item of $12,500, in addition to the
16 unverifiable private grants and donations and
17 MasterCard line of credit, which actually would be
18 fees for an after-school program, and really
19 shouldn't have been included as revenue for the
20 operation of the school and should have been
21 stand-alone.
22 This becomes a slippery slope in that there
23 are numerous problems with the projections of
24 revenue, numerous problems with the projections of
25 expenses, and with respect to the facilities being
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1 at line item zero, this was really unverified.
2 At the time of the hearing on February 23rd,
3 there was a statement that St. Peters Episcopal
4 Church would donate a site; however, that was
5 qualified, and this is an extreme qualification
6 with respect to the parties entering into an
7 appropriate lease.
8 Just because a site is donated doesn't mean
9 that the landlord -- and this would be very
10 untypical of a landlord -- would agree to pay for
11 maintenance of the facilities, utilities and so on
12 and so forth, and the budget contains a line item
13 of zero for those expenses as well, which certainly
14 are expenses that should be considered.
15 There's no line item -- getting into the more
16 minutiae, there's no line item in the budget to
17 hire a CPA, and certainly they're required to
18 conduct an annual audit to meet the state statutes.
19 The district's administrative fee was miscalculated
20 just within the four corners of the budget.
21 Really, in summary, there were so many
22 problems with this budget that as far as
23 overstating income and understating expenses --
24 you're really going in the wrong direction there
25 with respect to reconciling the balance sheet and
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1 the revenues -- that to enter into contract
2 negotiations really, at this phase, would be an
3 exercise in futility.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Any questions?
5 (No response.)
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Would you like to respond to
7 any of the comments made?
8 MS. BELL: In our proposal, we did state that
9 Westside Academy Charter School would hire a
10 full-time certified public account, and that's
11 stated in our proposal. We're not trying to start
12 a school on our own.
13 What we want to do is we want to work with
14 Duval County School District. We wanted them to
15 really work with us so that we can gain an approval
16 within the next year. We're not trying to open
17 this coming school year, but we are planning to
18 open within a year.
19 We would like Duval County to give us that
20 support and to work with us so that we can be able
21 to open doors for students who really need our help
22 and who are in great need.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Questions?
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, I'd just
25 like to say that the fact that they're not planning
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1 on opening this year, that there are some --
2 obviously some areas that need a lot of work here;
3 so I move that, at this time, we deny the appeal.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a second. Any
6 discussion?
7 (No response.)
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor of denying the
9 appeal say aye.
10 (Affirmative response.)
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
12 (No response.)
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They do have time to
14 resubmit an application for this coming school year
15 to get it through, and we urge you to work with the
16 district. If you'd like help from the Department
17 of Education, we'll be glad to help you.
18 MS. BELL: Okay. Thank you.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much for
20 coming. Appreciate everybody's patience on this
21 subject. Wayne, what else have we got going?
22 MR. PIERSON: Item 6 is another charter school
23 appeal which was withdrawn by the applicant.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, we'd like to hear that
25 one. Item 7 is an amendment Rule 6A-1.012,
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1 Purchasing Policies. It basically gives school
2 boards the authority to use the same rules that the
3 state agencies use.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
7 objection, it's approved.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Your Honor, Items 8
9 through 12 in this agenda all deal with various
10 components of sections to secure high quality
11 teachers in Florida schools. Item 8 and 10 address
12 relatively minor issues related to the
13 certification exams, one for Spanish and the other
14 for educational leadership.
15 Item 9 proposes an important change in the
16 schools' social workers and also alters some
17 increased flexibility for professional preparation.
18 Items 11 and 12, however, are of great
19 significance. They are the focus of our work
20 today; so that we may address these rules, at this
21 time, I'd like to address Items 8 and 10.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Are you making a
23 motion?
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I move Items 8 and
25 10.
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'll second it.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
3 objection, it's approved.
4 Before we begin on this work, and I apologize,
5 but I think maybe the court reporter needs about a
6 five-minute break. I admire your -- not bad. Take
7 as long as you want.
8 (Brief recess.)
9 (Secretary Harris and Commissioner Crawford
10 not present at this time.)
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: We've got approvals for Items
12 8 and 10.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, again thank
14 you. Item 11 presents a great challenge. Florida,
15 as you know, needs teachers who are completely
16 competent in every way. They must be generally
17 literate. They must have a firm current command of
18 their content area.
19 They must know how to effectively teach their
20 students; however, our state cannot be rigid in its
21 approach to attracting good teachers. Since we
22 annually need more teachers than we can graduate
23 from our own programs, we have to have a
24 multifaceted system for the the development of our
25 instructional workers.
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1 Therefore, we have various routes by which
2 respective teachers may become certified. This can
3 lead to some confusion. The preferred route to
4 full certification is through the completion of an
5 approved teacher preparation program.
6 We'll be talking about this during Item 12;
7 however we have other ways for good teacher
8 candidates to access our system, and one of these
9 is highlighted in Item 11. Here you will find a
10 very long list of rules that talk about the
11 essential content requirements for people who have
12 a degree, but not through the education program.
13 (Commissioner Crawford enters room.)
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: These rules exist to
15 specify to people what they must have to earn a
16 temporary certificate in their field. In most
17 cases, you will find that they can either hold a
18 degree in the subject, or they can have 30 hours in
19 a range of areas within the subject.
20 It's important to note that people who meet
21 these requirements must continue to work towards
22 licensure. They have to take additional courses
23 that are programs in education. They must be
24 regularly monitored by administrators in their
25 school to ensure that they can demonstrate all
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1 appropriate competencies.
2 They also have to pass all certification
3 tests. These additional requirements generally
4 take two to three years to complete. We are
5 proposing changes to these rules to allow for
6 greater flexibility while maintaining the high
7 standards.
8 This was suggested in the A-Plus legislation
9 passed last June. The Department undertook a
10 comprehensive study to assist in this approach and
11 is pleased to present these rule revisions to you
12 today.
13 Do we have a speaker?
14 MR. PIERSON: We have two speakers.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Pamela Carroll.
16 MR. PIERSON: Pamela Carroll, Florida Council
17 of Teachers of English and Audrey Huggins from the
18 Department.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon.
20 MS. CARROLL: Hi. My name is Pamela Carroll.
21 I'm here representing the English Ed program at
22 FSU, also the English Ed programs at University of
23 South Florida, at Florida International University,
24 at University of Central Florida, and Florida Gulf
25 Coast College. We've all been talking a lot
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1 recently.
2 The rules that I would ask for you to
3 reconsider are Rules 4.0161 and 4.0162 which are
4 related to the preparation of teachers of English
5 and language arts at the middle-school and the
6 high-school levels.
7 Specifically I would really sincerely ask you
8 to think about keeping adolescent literature as a
9 requirement for perspective teachers of English and
10 language arts. Research has shown since the early
11 '80s that teachers who do not take course work in
12 adolescent literature are not likely to bring young
13 adult books into their classrooms.
14 That means that students don't get their hands
15 on those young adult books in a context in which
16 they're taught, and that then becomes a disservice
17 to the students because these are the books that
18 really do have the potential for opening doors
19 towards critical literacy or being able to make
20 sense of their world for adolescent students.
21 The books are characterized by characters who
22 are adolescents, by issues that appeal to
23 adolescents and issues that have meaning to them,
24 everything from relationships with their families,
25 to sexuality, to drugs and alcohol, to athletics,
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1 issues that are part of their world, and books that
2 allow them, in a school context, to talk about
3 their world to explore it, to begin to make sense
4 of them in the sense of critical literacy.
5 So I would really urge you to consider keeping
6 adolescent literature as a part of the preparation
7 and certification requirement for teachers in
8 middle and secondary English classes, so that the
9 teachers will then take those books to their
10 students.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I discuss something for a
12 second?
13 MS. CARROLL: Yes. I'm sorry.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: The sexuality, explain that to
15 me again.
16 MS. CARROLL: Well, in young adult literature,
17 because they feature protagonists who are kids, 12
18 years old, 14, 16 years old, they very frequently
19 portray the parts of life that kids are dealing
20 with.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: What grade, when you say
22 adolescent, what does that mean?
23 MS. CARROLL: You might begin -- some people
24 would define early adolescent as early as 10 or 11
25 years old and go up to about 18. The common frame
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1 of reference is that we --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Middle and high schools?
3 MS. CARROLL: Yes.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
5 MS. CARROLL: Just to help your acquaintance
6 with young adult or adolescent literature --
7 because a lot of us didn't have this kind of
8 literature when we went to school -- I brought a
9 copy of a journal in adolescent literature
10 sponsored by the National Council of Teachers of
11 English which I happened to edit it at FSU for the
12 National Council of Teachers of English.
13 It's the only one of its kind nationally that
14 focuses specifically on adolescent literature, so I
15 will leave you copies.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
17 MS. CARROLL: Thank you.
18 MS. HUGGINS: Governor, Commissioner, Members,
19 good afternoon. I'm Audrey Huggins, Bureau Chief
20 of Educators Certification, Department of
21 Education. We are in the process of realigning all
22 of our laws, rules and procedures to match the
23 A-Plus plan.
24 Of course, you know one of our charges is to
25 simplify the certification process while
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1 maintaining quality. We have listened to the
2 districts, and we are supposed to be sensitive to
3 the districts in recruiting teachers.
4 The plan that is in question here today -- and
5 I heard you comment earlier -- Governor, Plan B --
6 yes, this is plan B -- this is only addressing
7 those people who have not completed a teacher
8 education program. They do not have majors in the
9 subject, and we're doing a very careful
10 course-by-course analysis.
11 What we have seen over the years, and the
12 districts have seen in recruiting teachers, are
13 people who have very strong backgrounds in a
14 content area, we are denying certification, cutting
15 them out of the teaching field, because they do not
16 have one specific-type course.
17 What we're trying to do here is to keep the
18 quality, keep the hours. Yes, we did delete a
19 precise course in adolescent literature. We do
20 have literature, nine hours at the middle grades,
21 and I think it's 15 hours at the secondary level.
22 This does not prohibit teachers from using
23 adolescent literature. I used to teach English. I
24 understand the importance. I don't know that it
25 warrants eliminating people from the field of
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1 teaching because they do not have seat time of
2 three hours in a college course in adolescent
3 literature.
4 I would certainly encourage you to consider
5 our recommendation. Thank you. Any questions?
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions?
7 (No response.)
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is there another
9 speaker?
10 MR. PIERSON: No. We're not on Item 9 now.
11 She was speaking on Item 11. We skipped Item 9 and
12 came back to it.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm sorry. Well,
14 I'll do that next. Let's move Item 11.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Any
17 discussion?
18 (No response.)
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
20 objection, it's approved. Item what number now?
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'd like to go back
22 and do 9 'cause it goes after -- it's the one that
23 gets rid of unnecessary requirements for school
24 social workers.
25 MR. PIERSON: Item 9 is an amendment to Rule
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1 6A-4.006, General and Professional Preparation.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion? Moved and
5 seconded. Without objection, it's approved.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Next, finally, we
7 have, as regards to teacher quality, I present to
8 you Item Number 12. This rule is of particular
9 interest to me as it significantly increases the
10 requirements for new teachers, and we must have
11 this.
12 Everywhere I go, people talk about the need
13 for better prepared teachers. It's a shame, but
14 there's a common perception that today's standards
15 are simply not rigorous enough. We must remember
16 the graduates of approved teacher preparation
17 programs, and we have 29 colleges and universities
18 in Florida that have them -- these graduates are
19 entitled to a professional level certificate.
20 They take no more training. They're supposed
21 to be fully skilled to the point of graduation --
22 at the point of the graduation. Therefore, their
23 program of study must be a challenging one.
24 Commensurate with the 1999 legislation, I appointed
25 a committee to review the current program and to
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1 make recommendations for its improvement.
2 The committee was compromised of university
3 and community college presidents, deans of colleges
4 of education, district superintendents,
5 high-performing teachers, principals, university
6 professors and business representatives.
7 You have each been provided a copy of their
8 very comprehensive report. Here to the present, to
9 present the committee findings, we have a couple
10 that will speak, and I think I'm going to have
11 Superintendent Kelly -- are you going to start?
12 How are we doing that? -- who was Superintendent.
13 Pete Kelly was on the teacher prep committee, and
14 he's superintendent of Citrus County. He can give
15 you an overview.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome, sir.
17 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: Thank you. Governor
18 Bush and Members of the Cabinet -- what was that?
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: After you sat through our
20 charter school application process, do you ever
21 want to have one appealed to the Cabinet?
22 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: Well, it's like this,
23 I'm supposed to be at a school board meeting in
24 Citrus County right now; so I've served my day, I
25 guess, it is already.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, you have.
2 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: But it is a pleasure to
3 be here. I'm Pete Kelly, Superintendent of Citrus
4 County Schools, and I would like to thank
5 Commissioner Gallagher for appointing me to this
6 committee and serving along with three other fellow
7 superintendents.
8 This committee was also composed of teachers,
9 principals and representatives from the college of
10 education throughout the state. The meetings were
11 very spirited, to say the very least, but it was a
12 very collaborative effort on the part of everyone.
13 The conclusions reached by the committee will
14 raise the standards for those wishing to enter the
15 teaching profession just as we are raising the
16 standards four our K through 12 students. In our
17 economy, that places such an importance on critical
18 thinking skills.
19 We must continue to look at reform on all
20 levels. The core of this rule has to be the
21 emphasis that is being placed on the need of all
22 teachers to be able to teach reading, but also
23 focuses on writing, science and math.
24 The committee realized that changes in
25 requirements in one area would require changes in
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1 other areas due to the total number of hours that
2 are required for a degree. It was the general
3 feeling of the committee that we must work harder
4 to prepare our new teachers for the challenges of
5 the 21st century.
6 They must be more knowledgeable in student
7 assessment, classroom management and technology
8 than they've ever been in the past. While these
9 requirements will demand more from colleges of
10 education and teacher candidates, we feel that it
11 will provide impetus for it to meet the district
12 needs and satisfactions.
13 In going through the committee work, we looked
14 at the general education that should be required of
15 all teacher candidates. We felt that we should
16 have 9 hours of communication skills, 12 hours in
17 science, 9 hours in math, 15 hours in social
18 studies and humanities, 6 hours.
19 It was the expectation that all teachers would
20 have a substantial knowledge base of their chosen
21 content area. They're going to have a complete
22 understanding of the relevant Sunshine State
23 standards.
24 In the professional knowledge, they should
25 have the skills necessary to promote student
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1 learning. In methodology, there's an expectation
2 that all teachers have the essential skills to
3 impart knowledge.
4 In internships, all teacher preparation
5 students will effectively direct and facilitate
6 student learning. Then upon their completion of
7 the program of study, it's expected that teacher
8 preparation students will have passed their subject
9 area and professional tests that are required of
10 them.
11 We would ask that you would support this, and
12 it was the general consensus of the superintendents
13 that served with me that this was was an excellent
14 rule.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you answer a couple of
16 questions?
17 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: I hope.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Was there a unanimous vote on
19 this?
20 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: We did not have a
21 unanimous vote. We came to a consensus of opinion
22 as we worked through this together.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: What does that mean?
24 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: No one disagreed, that
25 we all agreed that the conclusions were correct.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: So that sounds pretty
2 unanimous.
3 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: Well, we did not take a
4 direct vote.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But they did agree to
6 this report that you have in front of you.
7 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: Yes.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: That means they supported the
9 report?
10 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: Yes.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: What is the difference between
12 what we do now and what you're proposing? What's
13 the additional requirements?
14 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: The additional
15 requirements are basically in the literal arts part
16 of it where it requires more general education
17 requirements of teacher preparation, and also in
18 the requirements for reading -- teaching of reading
19 for all teachers.
20 In the elementary schools, they must have a
21 requirement of 12 hours, and in the middle and high
22 schools, they must have a 3-hour course in teaching
23 reading.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Excuse me, Governor.
25 In addition to what they have now? Is that what
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1 you're saying?
2 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: No, not in addition.
3 And that was one of the problems that we had
4 throughout the committee is because there's a set
5 number of hours that you need to graduate. As we
6 looked at one area, we had to work -- look at other
7 areas because there's a pull and tug throughout the
8 thing to make the hours come out.
9 So looking through these general things, we
10 thought there should be specific requirements that
11 would help teachers be better prepared for content,
12 across content areas. Reading was something that
13 was very important that we focused on.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: What was reduced in terms of
15 current requirements to accommodate this emphasis
16 on reading?
17 SUPERINTENDENT KELLY: I don't remember the
18 exact things that we changed. We have Dr. Proctor
19 here, and he can probably give you --
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Why don't we do this?
21 Why don't we go through the speakers --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- and then we'll ask
24 the questions, and whoever has the best answer can
25 give it.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Norma?
3 MR. PIERSON: No, it's the Chancellor.
4 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: I'm sorry?
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Chancellor, welcome back.
6 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Thank you very much,
7 Governor.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sure you're happy to be
9 back.
10 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: I'm not sure. First, let
11 me just thank the Members of the State Board for
12 the opportunity to comment briefly on a topic that
13 obviously is of great importance. Let me indicate
14 from the outset that our board staff, as well as
15 our deans of colleges of education, have followed
16 the development of the proposed changes to the
17 education rule very carefully.
18 We also, as you have heard, did have
19 representation on the committee. I can tell you
20 that the feelings that were expressed in the report
21 were not unanimous, but over the course of the past
22 few days, I have written a letter to the Governor
23 and to the Commissioner in which we've outlined
24 some of the basic concerns that my colleagues and I
25 have about this proposal.
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1 I would just emphasize from the outset that we
2 share the Commissioner's strong feeling about the
3 importance of producing outstanding teachers for
4 this state. The Board of Regents has, in fact,
5 established a committee that focuses on K through
6 12, and one of the challenges given to me, as
7 Chancellor, has been to work with our colleges of
8 education to assure that we can achieve some of the
9 goals that the Commissioner has articulated.
10 Our concerns that we have put in writing speak
11 to the core curriculum course credit hour
12 requirements or general education requirements.
13 Second is the potential timing of the
14 implementation of the rule.
15 The third concern is the recency of experience
16 requirement for teachers in our colleges of
17 education and in particular, the capacity of the
18 public schools to accommodate the resulting
19 scheduling and workload implications as our faculty
20 begin to meet those requirements.
21 There's clearly a point of agreement here, and
22 that is, the teacher education candidates do need
23 to have strong content knowledge, and also
24 competencies, to serve the constituents that they
25 have trained to teach.
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1 Our central concern is whether to mandate
2 specific work course work as opposed to mandating
3 knowledge and competencies. I think this is a
4 fundamental issue that I would hope that this Board
5 will keep in mind.
6 As you take a look at everything that has
7 happened in this state over the course of the past
8 few years, Educate 2000 legislation, the Sunshine
9 State standards, the new performance-based state
10 program approval process, we have focused not on
11 individual courses, but rather upon competencies.
12 That, I think, is something that is extremely
13 important as we go forward, but there's some other
14 consequences of this rule that I hope you will keep
15 in mind because I think they have very significant
16 implications. The first is the implementation time
17 line.
18 The fact of the matter is that the curricular
19 changes that are being proposed here are of such
20 magnitude that we cannot possibly implement them by
21 the fall of 2000. Why? Very simple. Number one,
22 many of the impacted students have already
23 registered for fall classes.
24 The second is that universities, as you know.
25 must go through curricular change processes through
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1 our faculty governance system. Many of our faculty
2 are not on campuses during the summer. We do not
3 have the time to take all of these curricular
4 matters through those faculty governance processes
5 in time for the implementation of this program for
6 the fall term 2000.
7 Next, we must modify the articulation
8 agreements between 10 universities and 28 community
9 colleges. This will require the convening of our
10 curriculum committees to revisit prerequisites in
11 relationship to general education.
12 We do not have time between now and the
13 beginning of fall 2000 term to go through that
14 process. Next, our faculty have to develop new
15 courses, and we don't have time not only to get
16 those new courses developed, but through our
17 governance processes and on to books that have
18 already been closed with regard to new courses.
19 Finally, by law, the Board of Regents must
20 approve changes in programs which exceed 120 hours.
21 That then leads to the next point, and that is --
22 and I hope that you'll keep this in mind -- in
23 1995, the Legislature adopted Senate Bill 2330.
24 That bill changed dramatically how our
25 universities operate. It was referred to as the
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1 time-to-degree bill, and in it, it set forth a
2 number of specific requirements designated to
3 reduce the amount of time that students study as
4 they pursue their degrees.
5 Our system subsequently went through a
6 three-year process to reduce general education
7 requirements as well as the total credits in all of
8 our degree programs. This is the critical point
9 here. Florida Statute 240.115 stipulates that 36
10 hours of general education is the maximum number
11 that we can offer.
12 In contrast, the rule that you're considering
13 stipulates not the 36 required by law, but 45 hours
14 of general education. The proposed rule, in short,
15 changes -- it exceeds the limits that have been
16 specified in law; so to implement the rule that you
17 have before you, the state university system will
18 have to receive an opinion from the Attorney
19 General that we have the authority to ignore this
20 state statute.
21 The same Florida law also requires that
22 undergraduate programs must be limited to 120
23 hours. In exceptional cases, it authorizes the
24 board to approve by a two-thirds majority vote any
25 exceptions to the 120-credit hour limit for
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1 baccalaureate degrees.
2 The proposed action before you will inevitably
3 force the Board of Regents to adopt numerous
4 exceptions to the 120-hour rule, and I hope you
5 would keep in mind this simple reality, that
6 what -- the path down which you are walking is
7 going to result in our colleges of education
8 requiring more hours than most of the other degree
9 programs in our institutions outside of fields like
10 engineering.
11 Right now music education requires 134 hours,
12 art education, 126. In contrast, computer science
13 and business administration is 120 hours. This
14 rule is going to force our faculty to increase the
15 total numbers of hours in those programs, and then
16 it will require the Board of Regents to, by a
17 two-thirds majority vote, adopt these changes.
18 In the process, what you're doing is
19 lengthening undergraduate education programs to
20 additional course requirements. I think this is
21 simply going to create further obstacles, and
22 you're going to create disincentives for producing
23 more teachers at a time when there is a need for
24 many more.
25 I hope that you would, also, keep in mind that
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1 right now in our system, as you look over the past
2 three years, the challenge for us has been that we
3 are seeing a declining number of students that are
4 entering the education colleges of this state
5 university system.
6 So what you'll do by adopting this rule is
7 increase the number of hours toward degrees.
8 You're going to limit options for students to take
9 electives, and I believe that when you look at the
10 bottom line at what we pay teachers, the
11 disincentive is going to be even greater.
12 That, I think, is going to ultimately have
13 very significant implications for us in our
14 colleges of education. We have already adopted --
15 and I think this is another critical observation
16 for you, that it's interesting to look at how
17 Florida operates.
18 We adopt reforms, and then a year or two later
19 we adopt another one without taking the time to
20 look at the consequences or impact of reforms we
21 previously adopted. As you take a look over the
22 course of the past three or four years, we not only
23 had Senate Bill 2330, we also had the Sunshine
24 State standards, the educator accomplished
25 practices, new subject area standards, just to name
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1 a few.
2 We haven't had a chance yet to determine
3 whether or not all of these programs are making a
4 difference, and now we're talking about yet another
5 reform without having the benefit of assessing the
6 consequences of what we've done up to this point.
7 The only thing I do know is this -- I think
8 the Commissioner is absolutely right -- perceptions
9 have been a problem, but when I look at the reality
10 and not perceptions, what I see are these kinds of
11 realities: The passage rate on the Florida Teacher
12 Certification Examination developed by the
13 Department of Education, our students are passing
14 with a 98 to 100 percent range consistently.
15 When you look at the rehirability rate, which
16 the State Department has recently developed, 95 to
17 100 percent. That does not tell me that there are
18 problems that we have with regard to our students.
19 Then we, on our campuses, are conducting employer
20 satisfaction surveys.
21 We are finding, in terms of what the public
22 schools are telling us, that we have a 90 percent
23 or above satisfaction rate. I would hope that you
24 would not focus on the perceptions here, but deal
25 with the realities.
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1 The final point that I would like to make --
2 and this is one that I hope that you will give
3 particular consideration to -- is the reality that
4 this proposed rule places our institutions at risk
5 in the context of accreditation standards that have
6 established both by SACS and also by the National
7 Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education.
8 The State of Florida, several years ago, made
9 a very significant decision, this body did, that
10 you wanted your colleges of education to meet the
11 highest national standards possible. We required
12 accreditation.
13 What this rule does is raise serious questions
14 in areas of both governance and institutional
15 control, and I am personally convinced, having gone
16 through NCAT processes on two occasions at the
17 campus level, that if you take this action without
18 providing an opportunity for the faculty governance
19 processes to work, that you're going to create a
20 scenario in which we are going to be at risk with
21 regard to those accreditation standards.
22 Thank you very much for the opportunity to
23 speak.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you leaving, Chancellor?
25 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: No, sir. I'll be right
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1 here.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have questions, but we'll
3 wait till everybody speaks.
4 MR. PIERSON: The next person who's asked to
5 speak is Norma Goonen, and after that, Rosie Webb
6 Joels.
7 MS. GOONEN: Governor Bush, Commissioner
8 Gallagher, Members of the Board, my name is Norma
9 Goonen. I'm dean of the undergraduate school of
10 education at Nova Southeastern University. That
11 includes five academic departments including our
12 teacher preparation, our education department.
13 By the way, Nova is the proud school where Joe
14 Balchunas, who is teacher of the year, attended,
15 and this is a product of our education. I speak
16 today on behalf of Nova Southeastern, but I
17 attended in April a meeting of the Chief Academic
18 Officers of Independent Colleges and Universities
19 of Florida, ICUF.
20 In that meeting, there were many concerns
21 expressed. Some of my colleagues have already
22 written. I'm not here on behalf of ICUF. I'm only
23 here on behalf of Nova Southeastern, but I did want
24 to -- I've had many, many phone calls and E-mails
25 from members of ICUF, and I'd like to also express
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1 concerns on behalf of independent colleges and
2 universities that have some concerns regarding
3 these rules.
4 I'll be very specific. First, let me tell you
5 that all of the colleges and universities I have
6 spoken to -- and we are definitely committed to the
7 preparation of quality teachers for Florida
8 classrooms. I think we are all here agreeing we're
9 preaching to the choir.
10 We have several concerns on the proposed rules
11 as related to study specific general educational
12 requirements. At NSU, we have spent this past year
13 restructuring our general education requirements
14 leading to an undergraduate degree in all majors.
15 In this specific instance, we have raised the
16 bar for all of our Gen Ed requirements. The
17 proposed program, believe it or not, would make us,
18 if we are to keep within 120 credits or close to
19 it, lower the bar again for our students.
20 We require -- our general education
21 requirements are more rigorous than the ones that
22 you're placing here, and the mix, because of your
23 specificity, would really impact our students
24 negatively.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. I'm not following
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1 you.
2 MS. GOONEN: Okay. For example -- can I give
3 you an example?
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, please.
5 MS. GOONEN: Sure. We have 12 hours of
6 writing and composition, et cetera, including
7 speech. You have 9.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So?
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: So can't you do more for all
10 of that?
11 MS. GOONEN: Well, sir, if we're going to
12 keep -- right now we have 120 credits for a student
13 to graduate with an education degree. What you're
14 telling us -- if we're not to let go of those 12
15 credits -- we would have to let go of something to
16 make it 120; otherwise, when we add it up, it's
17 going to be close to 130 or 126 or 129.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're only requiring
19 36 credits.
20 MS. GOONEN: I'm sorry.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're requiring a
22 total of 36 credits.
23 MS. GOONEN: That is correct.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Most --
25 MS. GOONEN: But --
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm sure every one of
2 36, at least, you're requiring. That's what you're
3 telling me, and in some cases more.
4 MS. GOONEN: That's correct.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So what's the big
6 deal?
7 MS. GOONEN: Well, we wouldn't have to --
8 because we add up -- the distribution is different;
9 so in order, for example, to have an earth science
10 course, which we require science, but the same
11 courses that you're requiring are not the courses
12 we require.
13 For example, we require an ethics course, and
14 we put that -- let's say we put that in the
15 humanities category. You are requiring things --
16 for example, we have 6 hours of science that we're
17 requiring. You're requiring 9.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right
19 MS. GOONEN: So in order to put those extra
20 credits in, we have to take something else off. In
21 order to do that -- otherwise, the student is going
22 to come up with 129-credit-hour requirement.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We recognize that.
24 Every school -- in other words, every school is
25 going to have that kind of a problem, but in
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1 certain areas where we say 9 hours of science, you
2 can give specific 9 hours, or you can merge them
3 together, but just get the 9 hours.
4 MS. GOONEN: Well, my experience has been that
5 when you try to merge these things together, they
6 get watered down, and they really don't meet the
7 spirit of what your intent is.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We give you the
9 flexibility to do that though.
10 MS. GOONEN: That is correct, but -- well,
11 okay. I have that in that. May I continue? Okay.
12 Let's see, let's go to the next item which is
13 the -- I believe the specificity in the curriculum,
14 in the number of hours on each thing and naming
15 each of the courses, is really beyond what is
16 reasonable and perhaps wise because the
17 all-size-fits-all approach to all majors has not
18 worked in the past.
19 Another point is that we support obviously,
20 program approval process, and we have -- but we
21 have concerns that revising requirements for the
22 teacher preparation programs right now does not
23 address the fact that the majority of Florida
24 teachers do not graduate from state approved
25 teacher programs.
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1 This proposal may have the unintended result
2 of opening the back door to certification. I
3 realize that's not your intent, but there are a lot
4 of students now that do not go through a teacher
5 certification program with an internship since
6 there are other ways of doing it.
7 But the problem is, as Chancellor Adam Herbert
8 has said, that the number of students going into
9 programs of education in colleges and universities,
10 as education majors, is decreasing. The reason for
11 that is that we are basically making it easier on
12 one end on the back door and harder on the front
13 door.
14 We want to make sure these people are trained
15 right. We want to make sure they're in an
16 internship program. We want to make sure that they
17 go through a regular teacher education program, at
18 least the universities do.
19 Another point is with the proposed
20 distribution of the general education requirements,
21 and I said -- I think I've already said this, it
22 will be extremely difficult to incorporate them
23 into the current curriculum without exceeding
24 120-credit hours.
25 The required topics that you're saying,
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1 Commissioner Gallagher, can be integrated into
2 courses to meet each of the major requirements such
3 as science, for example, may result in a dilution
4 of the version that I know is not in the spirit of
5 the proposed changes.
6 By and large, that would result, again, in a
7 negative impact. One final major point, as
8 Chancellor Herbert has said, is the time line, and
9 I urge you to please review the time line for this.
10 Fall of 2000 would really impact negatively on our
11 students.
12 Catalogues for 2000 and 2001 are already
13 printed. I realize that colleges and universities
14 have the prerogative of changing requirements,
15 especially if there's an accreditation issue, but
16 many of our students have already registered for
17 courses.
18 They would have to change their schedule.
19 Some of the courses may not be available right now.
20 Some of the courses may have to be drawn up. Some
21 of the courses are not -- not all academic
22 institutions, for example, that I have spoken to
23 have course in fine arts and so on.
24 Yes. They must have them according to your
25 rule, but they need some time to prepare them.
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1 Faculty are already out for the summer, and as you
2 know, the SACS, the Southern Association of
3 Colleges and Schools, the SACS requirements states
4 that faculty have the lion's share -- this is our
5 honored tradition.
6 Faculty have the lion's share of the
7 responsibility for the curriculum. Our faculty are
8 not here. Most of our faculty are not here in the
9 summer, and we do have curriculum review processes,
10 as Herbert stated, that must be adhered to; so we
11 propose that instead of focusing on the
12 restructuring of the teacher preparation program,
13 especially the Gen Ed part at this point, or
14 attempting to strengthen those, the focus needs to
15 be on the quality and standards of alternate
16 methods of certification.
17 I encourage to review the time lines for this
18 proposed project. Thank you.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
20 MS. GOONEN: Do you have any questions?
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: We might. I think we're going
22 to go through all the speakers.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're going through
24 the speakers.
25 MS. GOONEN: I'll be around.
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1 MR. PIERSON: Rosie Webb Joels?
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming up.
3 MS. JOELS: Governor and Members of the
4 Cabinet. I'm Rosie Webb Joels, president of United
5 Faculty of Florida and full professor of the
6 college of education and very proud to have
7 completed by 38th year as a teacher.
8 Significant in this process of teacher
9 education and especially addressing the issue of
10 quality and competence --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry, what university?
12 MS. JOELS: University of Central Florida.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
14 MS. JOELS: But teacher for the (inaudible)
15 School District, El Paso.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, yeah?
17 MS. JOELS: Significant to the issue of
18 teacher quality, of course, is the topic of their
19 preparation, and I'm here representing the 19,000
20 higher ed career professionals that my union
21 represents.
22 I am also very, very much concerned, as a
23 faculty member, of issues of governance and
24 specificity and faculty as they relate to
25 curriculum, programs of study and course work. One
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1 of the most serious violations that I observed in
2 the proposed rules has been corrected.
3 There was an issue where faculty would have to
4 spend 50 days in K-12 classrooms. That has been
5 amended from the Commissioner's office, as of June
6 7th, and we appreciate that, but within that one
7 item, I think, were some unfortunate assumptions
8 that lay people could draw that, and that is, that
9 we don't spend any time in K-12 settings.
10 We do in both formal and informal ways,
11 colleges of education faculty are very, very much
12 involved in the work in the local districts. That
13 takes the form of supervising student teachers,
14 and, in fact, at the University of Central
15 Florida -- and this is only an example of many --
16 some of the courses are taught in K-12 settings.
17 These experiences are confirmed and verified
18 and documented every five years very, very
19 thoroughly. When we go through the accreditation
20 process that is sponsored by or overseen or
21 governed by the Florida Department of Education,
22 the State University System Board of Regents, and
23 the National Council for the Accreditation of
24 Teacher Education and that agency NCAT is one where
25 I also have some concerns because NCAT
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1 accreditation requires absolutely the strong roll
2 of the faculty in the governance of the academic
3 programs and curriculum.
4 The specificity of these rule changes, without
5 question, violates both the letter and the spirit
6 of faculty governance, and I think that if we lose
7 our NCAT accreditation, if it's even put at risk,
8 it also will put at risk the reciprocity that we
9 share as an accrediting agency and having our
10 state-approved programs being viewed very favorably
11 outside our borders.
12 Additionally, deans of other academic leaders
13 have been providing strong and competent oversight
14 for programs and curriculum and courses, and I will
15 regret very much if it turns out that they are
16 being second-guessed and they are being informed
17 explicitly and implicitly that their leadership
18 hasn't been what we would want it to be because
19 they do provide a lot of expertise to our programs.
20 My final and most critical point as the
21 president of the union is that all requirements for
22 faculty have to be accommodated within the
23 collective bargaining agreement, and within our
24 role, our work assignments and the traditional
25 academic triad for instruction and research and
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1 service to our disciplines, we really do
2 incorporate, in a productive and viable way, work
3 in classroom settings.
4 However, new environments must be accommodated
5 because new requirements will require that
6 something else is given up, and I think the roles
7 we have in universities today, they are valued, and
8 I think that the excellence and the professionalism
9 of our students and our alumnae speak to that.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is Sheryl Peterson
13 still here?
14 (No response.)
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do we have Robert
16 Clark?
17 MR. CLARK: Governor Bush, Members of the
18 Cabinet, I'm Bob Clark. I'm the acting dean of
19 education at Florida State University. There's
20 much to this rule that is important to all of us.
21 The standards that are developed in the rule, I
22 think are quite appropriate.
23 We need our students to have a good solid
24 foundation as well as the technical skills built on
25 top of that foundation. We believe in high
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1 standards for teachers, and we believe that teacher
2 education must change to meet the needs of Florida
3 schools.
4 This has already been pointed out. We've
5 already been through a major curricular change just
6 a few years ago. We have just now graduated the
7 first class under that program that began in 1996.
8 We believe that it's critical that teacher
9 education programs concentrate on performance
10 outcomes.
11 We do not believe that the specification of
12 courses and credits will, in itself, raise
13 performance. The specification of courses and
14 credits requires curricular revision that distracts
15 from a focus on performance, and I think that's
16 where our focus needs to be at the moment.
17 The specification of courses and credits makes
18 it difficult for students to elect teaching after
19 he or she has begun their program in higher
20 education. The specifications of courses and
21 credits makes it difficult for students to take the
22 content, the subject area content that they need.
23 Different curriculum areas have different
24 needs in the way of content. The specification of
25 courses and credits will, at the very least,
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1 temporarily limit Florida's supply of teachers. My
2 final point is that it's very, very difficult to
3 change curriculum on the time frame that's been
4 indicated.
5 It takes, under the best case scenario, about
6 a year to make curricular changes. As has also
7 been pointed out, we already have students
8 scheduled for their classes in the fall, and it
9 would be very difficult to undo that at this time.
10 In conclusion, the issue, from our point of
11 view, is the specificity of course hours, not the
12 specificity of areas in which students need to be
13 competent. Thank you.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir. Anymore?
15 MR. PIERSON: We have Larry Byrnes from
16 Florida Gulf Coast, and then Dr. Proctor.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
18 MR. BYRNES: Governor, Cabinet Members, it is
19 my pleasure to have this opportunity to share very
20 brief comments with you. Most of what I had
21 planned to say has been covered by others. I just
22 wanted to point out that as a brand new university
23 and a brand new college of education, we are
24 currently in the process of seeking approval, that
25 is, initial approval, for our teacher education
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1 program, and as such, have a keen interest in this
2 bill.
3 I want to say that I do applaud your emphasis
4 on high expectations of standards for teacher
5 education programs that include a solid grounding
6 in liberal arts and sciences, extensive knowledge
7 in the subjects to be taught, and overall high
8 expectations and high standards.
9 I can assure you, as the new college of
10 education and new university, we meet or exceed
11 those standards. My focus -- speaking only for
12 FGCU at this point -- is on the implementation
13 date. Because we are in the process of seeking
14 approval for our new programs with the visits
15 scheduled for fall 2000, I would appreciate
16 receiving some time to complete the visits and
17 implement the new programs for students who are
18 already in the pipeline for fall semester 2000.
19 To achieve this end, I would recommend that
20 the implementation be deferred until fall 2001.
21 Thank you very much.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We have Dr. Bill
24 Proctor who also served on the committee.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
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1 DR. PROCTOR: Thanks. Mr. Governor, Members
2 of the Cabinet, I sat in and listened to the
3 previous testimony. I felt like I probably ought
4 to begin with an apology for the magnitude of the
5 task that the committee has proposed.
6 I didn't realize it was such an undertaking.
7 Let me address a few of the concerns that have been
8 expressed. First off is a notion that somehow in
9 recommending courses, we have acted contrary to the
10 competency movement in education.
11 Our charge from the Legislature was to
12 recommend a curriculum, and most curriculums are
13 comprised of courses. To verify this, I went back
14 and thought that this issue was going to come up;
15 so perhaps I ought to check a few catalogues of
16 other institutions.
17 I invite you, if you have questions about
18 this, to do the same. You will find there are
19 programs of education listed by courses and credit
20 hours. You will not find a list of 200
21 competencies; so if the courses and credit hours
22 are the coin of the realm, they're the way we
23 develop curriculums.
24 Now, we deliver competencies through courses;
25 so there's really no conflict here. By the
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1 committee simply prescribing a curriculum in terms
2 of courses and credit hours, it has not violated
3 the concept of competency.
4 I hope we can settle that point. If it has,
5 then there are many catalogues that do essentially
6 the same thing. Then there's a question of
7 specific courses that the committee recommended.
8 Here again, when you recommend a curriculum, you
9 deal in specificity.
10 If you're going to have a course in American
11 History, it's kind of hard to say that other than
12 to recommend a course in American History, and we
13 have one recommended. I'd invite you, as you look
14 at the curriculum, to note that most of the
15 specificity is in the lower division and most of
16 that throughout the state will be imposed on the
17 community colleges rather than the state
18 universities because they'll do most of the lower
19 division preparation.
20 That is not true for those institutions, such
21 as my own, where a number of good teacher
22 candidates come in at the freshman year, but that's
23 not true throughout the state. We were asked to
24 put an emphasis on math, on science, on reading and
25 on rigorous liberal arts component.
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1 If you look at the curriculum, I think you'll
2 find we did that. The testimony that most
3 impressed me was not the testimony of presidents
4 and deans. It was the testimony of the four
5 outstanding teachers that were on that committee.
6 I asked them, why do we do so poorly in math
7 and science. The answer was almost unanimously,
8 because we're not taught math and science, and when
9 you're not taught something, you don't teach it
10 very well.
11 Now, that made eminent good sense to me.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: When you say we're not doing
13 well in math or science, what does that mean?
14 DR. PROCTOR: Well, if you go back and look at
15 the CLAST, College Levels Academic Skills Test, it
16 used to be required that that was a reform that we
17 managed to torpedo somewhere down the line. If you
18 go back and look at it, the lowest scores among the
19 college students taking that were math.
20 We're not doing a good job in that field; so
21 as I say, I inquired of the elementary teachers,
22 why don't you teach it well? We weren't taught it,
23 and you don't teach well the things that you
24 haven't been taught well; so there was a need for
25 specificity in courses.
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1 Now, I want to direct your attention to the
2 fact that that occurs in the lower division. Now,
3 what is the lower division comprised of? Well, it
4 has the general education component. I would
5 invite you to look at the general education
6 components of an array of colleges.
7 Let me tell you what they consist of. You'll
8 find a little math. You'll find a little English.
9 Then you will find distributed requirements. You
10 must take 6 hours out of the humanities. You must
11 take 12 hours out of the social sciences.
12 You'll find absolutely no rationale running
13 through those 6, 12 or 15 hours that are required.
14 The student takes -- well, he takes the ten o'clock
15 class rather than the eight o'clock class. He
16 takes the class where it's known the teacher grades
17 easier.
18 He takes the section that is open, by and
19 large, to fill out the general education
20 requirements. We thought, in preparation of a
21 teacher, there ought to be a sounder rationale than
22 that; so we got consensus among a large number of
23 educators what should this be?
24 Now, is it the most perfect proposed
25 curriculum of all time? Probably not, but look at
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1 the courses and ask yourself, is there anything
2 unreasonable there? I argued strongly for a course
3 in economics because I felt like the profession
4 would benefit greatly from that course. I lost on
5 that, but we did get American History, and we did
6 get a philosophy.
7 I don't think those are unreasonable if you
8 look at the curriculum. We did put the emphasis on
9 math. We did put it on science, and we did put it
10 on reading, and given the literacy rates in the
11 state, reading probably wasn't a bad idea when you
12 come right down to it.
13 Now, let me talk a little bit about the
14 frequency of experience requirement because people
15 have been -- I didn't know we had such concern over
16 something that seemed so logical. If I'm going to
17 teach others how to teach students, then it would
18 seem to me it's not unreasonable to expect me to
19 have some experience with those students
20 occasionally, and not be 20 years away from having
21 seen a classroom; so I don't think that's an
22 unreasonable request.
23 Probably it has some problems with
24 implementation, but I think those can be overcome.
25 Let me talk about a little bit about the 120-hour
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1 dilemma. We have 45 hours prescribed, and
2 everybody has to intern, and on my campus, that's
3 16 hours, but it can be 15; so call it 60 hours.
4 Now, you have 60 remaining hours in which to
5 train the teacher, and it can be done. We've been
6 doing it for years. It can be done. You have to
7 organize it, and you know what? Some disciplines
8 might have to cut back their program proliferation,
9 but that, too, won't be the end of the world.
10 When they tell you I've got to have 134 hours,
11 maybe it's possible to reduce that because over
12 time, programs proliferate. It's the nature of the
13 beast; so the question is, are all of those hours
14 absolutely mandatory to prepare a teacher in that
15 field, and I would submit to you, not necessarily.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: What is the likelihood of
17 having to go over 120 hours based on this rule
18 change?
19 DR. PROCTOR: I take it to answer that in
20 general, Mr. Governor, would be difficult because
21 you would want to sit down -- different curriculums
22 have different requirements.
23 My contention to you is that if you have 60
24 hours to prepare a teacher, and you've already got
25 the general ed done, and you have the internship
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1 done, you ought to be able to carefully structure
2 that in such a way to do it. Now, I think in most
3 instances --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: The intent of the Commission
5 was to do this in 120 hours?
6 DR. PROCTOR: Yes. I think you can. Of
7 course, you have, I think, in rule, a provision for
8 exception to that if somebody can make a telling
9 case, but it strikes me as odd that our telling
10 cases are in music and art rather than in computer
11 science.
12 I don't understand that, but some people made
13 a better argument than others did. Let me talk a
14 little bit about the general education law that
15 allegedly prevents us from doing that.
16 The general education law, in my view, has
17 nothing to do with this issue. You may not offer
18 more or require more than 36 hours of general ed by
19 state rule, but this is not general ed. This is a
20 certification requirement; so the Department can
21 require 45 hours, and it's not necessarily general
22 ed.
23 I don't see how that rule actually applies.
24 As to NCAT, probably not fair for me to speak to
25 long on that 'cause I never felt like that was
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1 critical to a successful program. There are a
2 number of outstanding teacher education
3 institutions in this country that are not NCAT
4 accredited.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. What does NCAT
6 mean?
7 DR. PROCTOR: It's the accrediting association
8 for colleges of teacher education, but I think less
9 than half of them are accredited. To my knowledge,
10 University of Virginia College of Education is not
11 accredited by NCAT, I don't believe. I know
12 Harvard isn't. I don't think Michigan is; so NCAT
13 accreditation is not essential to the production of
14 a good teacher education program.
15 As I say, less than half of these programs in
16 the nation are NCAT accredited. We looked at that
17 for Florida Atlantic, and I thought it was kind of
18 wasteful and really a little burdensome, and I
19 couldn't find any relationship between its
20 requirements and student performance; so it didn't
21 seem like it was worth the cost, but that's my
22 opinion.
23 I just don't think that's a burning issue
24 whether or not you lose NCAT accreditation, I don't
25 think it affects Harvard greatly. I believe that I
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1 have covered most of the general complaints. The
2 other point I think I would like to close on is,
3 lest you think this would not impose that, I'm
4 arguing to the position of a single institution
5 committee.
6 Twenty-five percent of our enrollment at
7 Flagler is teacher education. We don't have a
8 major natural science department. This will impose
9 as much of an obligation on our institution as any
10 institution in the state, but it is the right thing
11 to do.
12 It should have been done 30 years ago. You
13 may want to defer if you choose to. My question I
14 would ask you though, if you choose to defer, what
15 is going to happen in that time? Is it going to be
16 implemented, or is it just going to create more
17 opposition?
18 As I sat here reflecting on all of the
19 terrible things this timing imposes on us, I was
20 ever so grateful that Patton's Army didn't suffer
21 from the same malady as our education profession,
22 or he'd still be turning toward the Battle of the
23 Bulge.
24 It will be difficult to implement this, but it
25 can be done, and maybe there are some laws and
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1 teacher faculty issues that I just don't deal with
2 as much as these other folks, and you'll have to
3 talk to them about that, but if you decree this, I
4 guarantee you that Flagler will implement it.
5 We'll implement it this year. We'll implement
6 it for the freshman class, and we'll do it in 120
7 hours. I welcome any questions.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could you help me understand
9 the difference between unanimous and consensus and
10 how -- I'm a little confused because many of the
11 people that came in opposition to this rule are
12 like kind to people on the Commission with very
13 similar backgrounds.
14 Can you explain a little bit about what
15 your -- how your deliberations went and --
16 DR. PROCTOR: Yes, sir. I think I can try. I
17 think the Commissiner impressed on us very firmly
18 what the legislative charge was, and I think we all
19 felt an obligation to try to carry that out, and it
20 wasn't a matter of would this be an easy thing to
21 do, was this going to be widely accepted?
22 It was, let's listen to the people who are in
23 the field. Let's listen to the teachers, and let's
24 listen to the superintendents. That's who we
25 listened to first. We didn't listen to the deans
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1 and the presidents necessarily.
2 After we had heard that testimony, we said,
3 all right. If our obligation is to respond to this
4 charge, then we've got to do it in a way that we
5 can all agree to it; so we divided into
6 subcommittees.
7 I chaired for the little subcommittees. I
8 don't recall that I ever took a vote. I think we
9 talked about it, and as I say, I lost some courses
10 in that deliberation. I lost my course in
11 economics. I still think it's a good idea.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: You told us that.
13 DR. PROCTOR: But I won some. I won the one
14 in American History, and I won the one in classroom
15 management, and I won in school law because I think
16 we put a lot of teachers in a classroom, and they
17 have no knowledge of school law.
18 In this age, the age of litigation, I think
19 that's a crime; so I argued forcibly for that, and
20 other people argued for other things. We gave and
21 we took, and we never took a formal vote that I
22 recall. I don't know if that helps you, but that's
23 my recollection.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Betty was the -- I
25 guess we'll call referree for the staff person on
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1 it, and she tell a little bit to clarify it.
2 MS. COX: My name is Betty Cox. I'm deputy
3 commissioner for educational programs for the
4 Department of Education, and did have the pleasure
5 of staffing this committee. It was an awesome job
6 that they did, and I really appreciate all of their
7 hard work.
8 It was fairly clear from the get-go, however,
9 that a majority vote kind of methodology was not
10 going to be the most positive one; so we did go
11 with consensus, and ultimately what we did at the
12 point of recommendation, of formal acceptance of
13 recommendation was this: We would put it out
14 there. We would massage it.
15 At some point, I would say, is there anyone
16 here who absolutely cannot live with this? The
17 report that you have there was the report that
18 ultimately everybody that was at the table said
19 they could live with; so, you know, it's kind of
20 the consensus model that we used.
21 Subsequently, all of that was sent to every
22 single member, and people were invited to state
23 individually 'cause sometimes -- you know, these
24 are power people. They can't go to every meeting
25 -- write us and tell you what you think.
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1 Barbara Harrell can give you a better
2 impression, but from -- for the most part, we had
3 no substantial onslaught of yee, gods, we want to
4 revisit this. The report you have, we feel, is
5 quite honestly a consensus report.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you surprised that people
7 of real substance and leadership --
8 MS. COX: Disagree?
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- are now expressing their
10 opposition, not just disagreement, but opposition.
11 MS. COX: No, not in total. I think one thing
12 I've always admired about higher education is the
13 academic freedom arena in which they live. They're
14 highly research-oriented people. They're very
15 committed and very intellectual, and I love that
16 about them.
17 I think, also, when you own something and you
18 think it's good, you love it, and you should love
19 it. We would want everyone to love it, and there
20 are many excellent programs in the state university
21 system, and folks feel connected to them. That's a
22 good thing.
23 Also some of them -- I'll speak for myself,
24 not necessarily for them. Some of us are rather
25 bureaucratic. As you know, Governor, and I know
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1 the Commissioner knows, we like to state, we need
2 more time to do this.
3 The Commissioner has certainly taught me I can
4 quit that because he wants what he wants yesterday,
5 but there is a certain element to I need more time
6 to work all this. Really that is process stuff,
7 and one thing we all know is you can do anything
8 you set your mind out to do.
9 If it's important enough, you'll get it
10 accomplished. I respect their positions on it and
11 know them to be very fine people.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This just came about
13 obviously through legislation, but when I got into
14 office, I had more superintendents and some
15 principals come to me and say, you know, you really
16 have to change what's going on in the education
17 schools.
18 Governor, I bet you've heard it, and I'd say,
19 well, we'll do something about that. They'd say,
20 no, you won't. I'd say, what do you mean? They'd
21 say, you can't. I'd say, what do you mean, can't?
22 They said, well, it's driven by the professors.
23 They're not going to change anything.
24 I said, well, there's other ways to do it.
25 They said, no, you don't understand. People tried
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1 to do this for years. This is -- and you've heard
2 it right here. It's driven by the faculty, and the
3 faculty is not going to change what they don't want
4 to change.
5 What ends up happening is the reason you have
6 over 120 hours is because you get some strong
7 faculty members in certain areas that influence the
8 others, and they get a huge music program; so
9 you're going to need 139 hours in music.
10 It was interesting to hear music needs all
11 those extra hours, but computer sciences doesn't.
12 That was pretty fascinating. Anyway, so in keeping
13 with the legislative requirement, I asked the staff
14 to take this committee's work and make it into the
15 rules that you have in front of you.
16 The Florida Statute requires that this
17 committee's report form the basis for the revision
18 to the State Board rules. As you've heard, the
19 original committee recommendations are somewhat
20 more rigorous than what you have in front of you
21 today.
22 That's because some representatives from
23 higher ed appealed to me personally, and to people
24 in our department, for rule modifications, and
25 where appropriate, we made those for them; so we've
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1 made amendments; however I will tell you-all that
2 this change is very serious business.
3 It's imperative that graduates from the
4 Florida Teachers Preparation Programs be truly
5 outstanding. I think this is the State's vision.
6 It's certainly my vision, and I believe it's your
7 your vision; so I'd like now to take up Item Number
8 12.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: When did the committee
10 make that --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It was required by
12 statute to get it to the Department by the 1st of
13 January, the middle of January.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So you've had it since
15 1 January?
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's correct. The
17 report has been out since 1 January. It's been
18 available for everyone. The rule has been in the
19 process --
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So five months to --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right. The rule is
22 to reflect the report.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've had hearings?
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Hearings, open --
25 DR. PROCTOR: Hearings, open deliberations and
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1 through amendments to --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The rule has gone
3 through the rule-making process. The committee
4 itself heard testimony of anyone who wanted to
5 speak, and the committee really wasn't a very big
6 broad committee.
7 The idea wasn't to jam the thing. We wanted
8 professors. We wanted deans. We wanted university
9 presidents. You can see the list that we had.
10 I'll pass it down.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- the past comments,
12 they're very proud of their products too. What
13 worries me a little bit is the timing, to be very
14 frank. I mean, I appreciate that Dr. Proctor can
15 do it in two months, but we've heard from other
16 folks that are involved in the academic
17 environment, in trying to pull this together, that
18 that's not a --
19 DR. PROCTOR: I understand that.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- very good time line.
21 You've been fooling around with this report since
22 January
23 DR. PROCTOR: My only recommendation to you is
24 if you should decide to delay -- I hope you won't,
25 but if you do, I'd have some ironclad guarantee
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1 that that period will be used for implementation
2 and not for opposition.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, one thing we could do --
4 I assume this -- is this going forward, in other
5 words, for any freshmen starting will be excused as
6 saying --
7 DR. PROCTOR: The proposal is to
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- system --
9 DR. PROCTOR: The proposal is to start with
10 freshman this fall.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I understand, but, I
12 mean, it wouldn't be for juniors or sophomores?
13 DR. PROCTOR: No, sir.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Just the starting
15 freshmen.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: So how does that -- there's
17 two ways to do this to follow your concern. One
18 way is to make it effective the fall of 2001.
19 DR. PROCTOR: I'm hard-pressed to understand,
20 because it would seem to me that most of the
21 freshman year could be spent in general education
22 courses.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well that's the other thing
24 I'm going to say is, can you --
25 DR. PROCTOR: There may be a reason for that
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1 that I don't understand, but you've English courses
2 there. You have math courses. You have math
3 courses. You have social science courses. You
4 have humanity courses. You can build a freshman
5 year on those courses.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I don't think it's a
7 question of the professional, but there is a
8 question of general education, that the time line
9 for the general education is tight. Professional
10 education, if that's the right terminology, the
11 component that's professional education clearly
12 won't occur till after this year.
13 So it's really -- if you're talking about a
14 time line of what's -- it's the tightness of
15 general education. You certainly could say,
16 implement the professional education. Even though
17 they won't see it for a while, implement that right
18 now, and do what you have to do for the
19 professional education.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Chancellor Herbert, do you
21 want to comment on this? This is an important area
22 of implementation.
23 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: With regard to
24 implementation, again, I just want to reiterate
25 that this issue of general education is extremely
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1 important. I have before me the rule that you're
2 considering.
3 It says (as read), "General Education
4 requirements for students shall include the
5 following." Then it lists 45 hours worth of
6 courses. I have in front of me Florida Statutes,
7 and they say -- this is 240.115.
8 (As read): "After admission has been granted
9 to students under provisions of this section and to
10 university students who have successfully 60 credit
11 hours of course work, including 36 hours of general
12 education can meet the requirements."
13 On the next page, it speaks very clearly with
14 regard to community college students. (As read):
15 "An associate of art degree shall require no more
16 than 60 hours of college credit including 36
17 semester hours of general education course work."
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, that doesn't
19 max it out. That says, "including." It could be
20 more. It just says, "including." How can you say
21 that's a max?
22 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Well, what we have been
23 advised is that we cannot exceed the 36 credit
24 hours, and again, the point for us is that we'll
25 just have to get -- because of the opinions that
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1 we've gotten from our general counsel, we'd have to
2 go to the Attorney General and determine whether or
3 not we can exceed the 36 hours.
4 I can tell you that when the Senate bill was
5 under consideration, we were told that all of the
6 universities have now dropped their degree
7 requirements for general education to 36 hours to
8 comply with the law as we understood it, and so
9 that, I think, is the operational challenge we have
10 here.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is this so-called reform
12 lowering requirements?
13 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: That's right. At one
14 point, for example --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- or how you interpreted it.
16 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: That's right. When I was
17 president of UNF, we had a 42-hour requirement for
18 general education; so we had to eliminate a writing
19 class, which I regard as being critical for the
20 students in our community, and we had to eliminate
21 some lab sections because of that law.
22 Every university in our system reduced their
23 general education requirements to 36 hours to
24 comply with the law as we were told it was drafted,
25 and so our concern that this rule is telling us
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1 that we must must have 45 hours in our general
2 education requirements.
3 We have a law that's telling us 36; so for us
4 to implement this, we'll have to get an opinion
5 from the Attorney General telling us that we can
6 ignore this section as it has been, and also
7 legislative history.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Whether that's the case or
9 not, I'm sure that one of the affected parties
10 probably will seek -- hey, welcome to my world.
11 This is the way it works. Then you pass the rule.
12 You get sued.
13 Someone is going to challenge this, and we'll
14 know quickly. I'd rather have it through an
15 Attorney General opinion so it can be done in a
16 timely fashion. The administrative procedures
17 process is close.
18 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Let me just also say,
19 Governor, that in response --
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We'll type up a
21 preliminary tomorrow or Thursday. We'll work with
22 your lawyers and look at it.
23 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Thank you.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You're welcome.
25 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: And, Governor, in
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1 response to your earlier question about unanimity,
2 I would just call to your attention to this realty,
3 that when the question was raised as to whether or
4 not everyone could live with the document, there
5 were some other elements included in that final
6 plan that were deleted in the context of this rule,
7 and so --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: What were they?
9 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: One of them, for example,
10 related to the concept of charter colleges of
11 education and the possibility of recognizing
12 innovative ways for our colleges to fulfill their
13 obligations. That was one that stood out.
14 Dottie, were there others?
15 MS. MINEAR: Yes, but I don't think they were
16 the kinds of things that could be dealt with in the
17 rule, the context of the rule.
18 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Some kinds of issues that
19 also came up, but our folks have definitely voiced
20 concerns about a number of these elements. We have
21 shared our concerns over the course of the past
22 several weeks with staff from the Department of
23 Education.
24 I just don't want you to think that this is
25 something just coming out of the blue. We have
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1 been engaged in these conversations because we're
2 committed to producing outstanding teachers, but
3 we're also concerned about the implementation
4 potential of this proposal.
5 Our situation is different from many of the
6 private institutions or some of the private
7 institutions of the state from what I've been
8 hearing thus far.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you give me an assessment
10 of where you think we stand in terms of -- if this
11 rule was passed, where would we stand compared to
12 other states in terms of requirements to get a --
13 to graduate to become a teacher?
14 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Right. What we estimate
15 is this, that this will require somewhere in the
16 neighborhood of 130 to 140 credit hours, depending
17 upon which discipline we're talking about within
18 the field of education.
19 There are 45 hours proposed here for general
20 education. There are 13 hours for content, 21
21 hours for professional education. Because of the
22 new English-as-a-second-language requirements now,
23 anywhere from 6 to 15 hours there depending upon
24 whether or not we integrate that content in the
25 courses or five required courses, 6 to 12 hours of
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1 field experience, 9 to 18 hours for training to
2 address other education accomplished practices.
3 We, in our universities, have 9 hours of
4 common law division education requirements we've
5 worked on in collaboration with the community
6 colleges, and then another -- up to another 9 hours
7 of prerequisites that vary according to whether or
8 not a person is in music, elementary ed, et cetera,
9 and also 3 to 6 hours of foundation.
10 What this basically says is that if a student
11 decides to enroll in education, they will have
12 virtually no electives whatsoever, that they will
13 -- unlike every other student in our
14 universities. This is just one more reason why I
15 say we've got to be careful because what we're
16 doing is not only moving away from competency-based
17 education, as we have in all other areas, but we're
18 also making it less and less attractive for
19 students to pursue degrees in education both
20 because of all the requirements, the number of
21 hours, and the significant inflexibility that we're
22 providing for students to pursue a course if they
23 would just like to study.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, going back
25 to what Chancellor said, the implementation in the
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1 freshman year, let's go back to that for a second.
2 How hard would that be given this rule?
3 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Well, in terms of the
4 freshman level, a student is going to take general
5 education requirements. The only issue there is 45
6 hours versus 36, but a student is going to take
7 those hours.
8 What I'm concerned about is mandating 45 hours
9 when we have just gone through a process in the
10 past five years of reducing those hours back down
11 to 36, but the students are going to take whatever
12 courses they must take in the context of the lower
13 division.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Didn't you just say you were
15 opposed to the reduction from 45 to 36 when you
16 were president of the university?
17 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: I was, yes, but the
18 Legislature has taken a number of actions that I
19 have objected to; so I have accepted that as a
20 reality of life, Governor.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I might include --
22 and I also include including the law that set this
23 rule in place. That was another one that he
24 disagreed with, too.
25 MR. PIERSON: Governor, we also have someone
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1 from Nova Southeast that also has a problem
2 implementing it this year, and you can hear from
3 her.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: But the Chancellor just said
5 it's really not the problem in the freshman class;
6 therefore, there won't be any need to change
7 anything in the general courses. Is that right?
8 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Yeah. A student is going
9 to come in and take a certain number of general
10 education requirements or meet those general
11 education requirements.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: They're going to be available.
13 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Yeah, the courses are
14 going to be available. The question is, what do
15 they have to take, and what this says is that they
16 may have to take a different combination of courses
17 and more of them.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Your bigger concern is the
19 plus -- 120-hour plus --
20 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: That's correct.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've assessed this to say it
22 goes beyond 120 hours?
23 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: And the 36 hours and the
24 competency.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Would it also
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1 be that you may not have as many course offerings
2 as you need for the number of students?
3 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: For the fall term. Yeah,
4 it's hard. See, right now all of our students have
5 enrolled, and to the extent that all of those
6 students have enrolled in these classes, it may not
7 be a problem, but again, the key is not so much
8 whether or not they can take the classes this fall,
9 because most of them have already registered.
10 The question is how many do they have to take,
11 and are you prepared to move away from the concept
12 of competency-based in this one area alone? How
13 important is that to you? How important is it to
14 you that we maintain these programs in a fashion
15 that makes them competitive?
16 Ultimately, what you're going to do is create
17 a scenario in this state of which most folks are
18 going to conclude that if you want to become a
19 teacher, the way to do it is to go in through the
20 back door and not through the front door.
21 That's inevitably what you're going to do as a
22 result of this. That is a problem, I think,
23 Governor.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Here's what -- Let me
25 just give you my point of view. The 45 hours is
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1 not a problem. You've got 120 hours to choose from
2 which you have to take 45 hours. The problem is
3 that the professors in the schools have made up
4 their minds what the other hours ought to be
5 instead of letting the students have the choice of
6 that.
7 All of a sudden, now you're going to be up to
8 130 hours. Well, they're just going to have to cut
9 some of their things that they think are important
10 out to what we think is important, like reading and
11 science and things like that.
12 That's sort of what -- not we, what the
13 committee basically sought. Let me give you an
14 example of some of the problems that exist. The
15 Department of Education, and actually this State
16 Board of Education, signed a decree nine or ten
17 years ago with the federal courts on ESOL.
18 It required 300 hours of training, nine years
19 ago, ten years ago. Two years ago is the first
20 time one of the teaching colleges actually started
21 including it as part of their curriculum. Why?
22 Because the professors didn't like it. That's why.
23 They didn't like the idea that there was an
24 agreement. They didn't like the idea that teachers
25 had to have it; so they didn't do it, and so what
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1 ended up happening is you graduate as a teacher.
2 You get to the district -- and the district people
3 can tell you this -- and the district now has to
4 give you 300 hours of ESOL training.
5 Now finally, a couple of years ago the
6 University of South Florida, I think FAU, and I
7 guess probably FSU -- now they're all starting to
8 finally do it, but nine years later? I mean, that
9 just doesn't make sense to me.
10 That's part of the problem is that they
11 just -- they don't want to move. It's just this is
12 the way it is, and we like it this way.
13 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Governor, if I could just
14 respond, I know that that is certainly a
15 perspective that one could take with regard to how
16 we operate.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, that's my
18 perspective.
19 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: It is clearly a set of
20 perspectives of how we operate, but let me put a
21 different twist on that. Over the course of the
22 past five years, the university system of this
23 state has gone through a period of significant
24 transformation.
25 The fact of the matter is that we were forced,
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1 in a matter of a year, to go through a process in
2 which we realigned all of our courses in terms of
3 upper and lower division. We had to enter into
4 major agreements with the community colleges of
5 this state.
6 We had to reduce our credit hours and degree
7 programs. We had to take them back to the Board of
8 Regents if they exceeded 120 hours, and all of our
9 faculties were going through that kind of process
10 on a program-by-program basis.
11 You can only do so many things. There are
12 only so many hours in a day. They had to deal with
13 those state-mandated requirements, and they did
14 that in a very effective fashion. I think that
15 part of the problem here is -- and this is
16 especially the case with regard to colleges of
17 education -- is that every year we impose one new
18 set of policies and procedures, one additional set
19 of requirements.
20 Our teachers are supposed to come out with
21 skills in five or six different areas, and the
22 reality is our faculty can't even keep up with all
23 of the things that we're being asked to do. This
24 is what I was trying to point out a few moments
25 ago, that in the final analysis, reform takes time.
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1 We can continue to come in and impose these
2 new rules. We don't give the institutions a chance
3 to implement them. You don't have a chance to see
4 what the consequences of those efforts are, and I
5 can assure you that this is not a matter of faculty
6 sitting around deciding, we aren't going to respond
7 to state law or to mandates.
8 It's trying to figure out how we can
9 responsibly address our obligation to provide
10 quality education within the context of all of
11 these demands being placed on us.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: How do you answer the ESOL
13 question?
14 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: ESOL was being addressed
15 -- and this is the point I'm trying to make, that
16 the ESOL issue was being addressed while we were
17 dealing with all these other issues.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Nine years.
19 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: I'm not sure that it's
20 nine years, but the bottom line is that the
21 universities have been dealing ESOL issue. I can
22 come back and tell you on a point-by-point basis
23 what's happened on each of the campuses. I don't
24 believe it's taken nine years for all the
25 universities to fulfill that requirement.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's not even in all
2 of the universities yet unfortunately.
3 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Well, I'll have to go
4 back and take a look at that because I am curious,
5 and I'll share that information with you because
6 I'm just shocked to hear that that's the case, but
7 in the final analysis, when you take a look again
8 at all of the things that DOE has demanded our
9 colleges of education do, I think that we're doing
10 an incredible job of responding to all these
11 mandates.
12 And all we're doing is making it more and more
13 difficult for our faculty to meet their
14 responsibilities. I worry about that a great deal.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, I've got to
16 go back to it again. I need to clear up one more
17 thing. I'm not quite sure what -- this is a great
18 committee, and I know they've got probably -- came
19 up with a product, but I'm still confused about
20 what they voted.
21 It was not a vote. It was a consensus, but
22 the question was, is there anything that you can't
23 live with? I think I understand what that says,
24 but with all these people that were here -- and the
25 Doctor is here standing here right now -- are they
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1 in support of all this?
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Here's what you have.
3 You have tremendous pressure within the
4 institutions that have curriculum driven by the
5 professors, and one of the reasons that they didn't
6 have any votes is, in all honesty, because the
7 deans of schools and the other people didn't want
8 to have all the faculty and everybody else's --
9 That's why they told me that they couldn't
10 make changes in their schools. I've had deans of
11 teaching schools in this state come to me and say,
12 I wish we could change the curriculum, but I just
13 can't. The faculty won't let us.
14 I've had university presidents tell me the
15 same thing. We can't do it. The faculty won't let
16 us; so that's when the law got changed, and a
17 committee got appointed that was mostly people that
18 use the facility -- use the results of this teacher
19 training on what they want them to have as training
20 when they come out.
21 Now, I do have an amendment I'd like to offer
22 now. This is on the amendment to take care of
23 recency. This is an issue that really has come up
24 a lot, and that is -- and you heard Dr. Proctor
25 mention it -- we have professors that teach in our
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1 teaching colleges that have not been in the K
2 through 12 system in a long time.
3 Now, a lot of them have it, but a lot of them
4 don't go and do it. They go write papers. They
5 can do other things, but they aren't in there in an
6 inner city school finding out what the problems are
7 and trying to teach there.
8 In Duval County, 25 percent of our teachers
9 quit the first year because they can't handle the
10 discipline in the classroom. That's why discipline
11 and classroom management got added. Well, you see,
12 there weren't any professors of classroom
13 management; so therefore, there's nobody to drive
14 the classroom management.
15 So those are some of the intrinsic problems
16 they're having; so in order -- which I agreed with
17 you. In order to help them on that, we're holding
18 off this recency for a year. I'd like to pass this
19 -- this is Amendment 1 which you have already seen.
20 I think I need to move that so that the
21 recency rule is in the right position. This holds
22 off recency to July of 2001 instead of -- that's
23 pre-kindergarten through 12 grade experience.
24 That's what this amendment does; so I'd like to
25 move that amendment to hold the recency off for a
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1 year to let the professors get --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: So there's a motion and a
5 second of an amendment. Do we have to vote on the
6 amendment, or do we -- any discussion on the
7 amendment to defer for one year the -- what that
8 terms means is residency --
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Recency. They call
10 it "recency."
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's like residency. I mean,
12 it's like --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sort of.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the equivalent of --
15 recency requirement for one year.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just a second. I want
17 to make sure I've got the right piece of paper
18 because I've got two pieces of paper, both dated
19 the same.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, this one --
21 this one would say --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: What's on page 2?
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What's on page 2?
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It looks like this
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1 (indicating). I guess it's below -- the paragraph
2 that says, "sub-sub-sub" across there.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I'm looking at
4 one that talks about "general education
5 requirements."
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's not the right
8 one.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The one on recency,
10 the one I just moved in.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We're on this one, not
12 this one?
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're on --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did you get the --
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I know what the
16 amendment is he's talking about. I have several of
17 them here, and I was trying to --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I know which one he's
20 talking about.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Is there any discussion
22 on this amendment to defer or to delay the
23 implementation on the recency requirement till July
24 1st, year 2001?
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How about an
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1 amendment to the amendment requiring the state
2 Board of Education members to also have to do a
3 number of recency hours each year?
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm for it.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: As a teacher or as a lawyer?
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I refuse to be a
7 lawyer.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I refuse to be a lawyer.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: As a teacher,
10 Governor. I don't think our hours probably should
11 be as stringent as theirs, but I think most of us
12 would do it, but I do think we should formalize it
13 before we require all of our teachers to do it and
14 all of our professors to do it, our teaching
15 teachers, and if we are the State Board of
16 Education and handling issues like this, I think it
17 would be very important for us to also spend a
18 number of hours in a classroom.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think it's a great
20 idea.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How many hours
22 would you want to do on that?
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And we put in there
24 you can't vote on State Board Issues if you haven't
25 put your hours?
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You can't sit
2 through any of these -- but I'd like to amend it.
3 Any quick discussion on how many hours that should
4 be done? How many hours we'd like for teacher --
5 is it 50 over a five year period or --
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You have to be careful
7 now. You know we've got environmental things that
8 you're dealing with. You have all kinds of
9 activities that the State Board of Education --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is it okay for us to just make
11 a pledge to be in the -- I think that the General
12 should be in the classroom more hours than you.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's fine.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, your point is
15 well-taken. I agree that --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's an amendment. There's
17 a motion to amend the rule and a second. Any
18 discussion?
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We're only addressing
20 an amendment now.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, we're only addressing
22 it. Any discussion? All in favor say aye.
23 (Affirmative response.)
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
25 (No response.)
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion passes. Commissioner
2 Gallagher, are you still working here, or are
3 you --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Dr. Proctor had a
5 comment.
6 DR. PROCTOR: I just had one on page 5 of the
7 rule, Commissioners, Governor. Perhaps the
8 terminology there would eliminate the Chancellor's
9 problem with general education requirements. On
10 Item 1, page 5 of the proposed rule --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't think I have that.
12 DR. PROCTOR: All it simply reads is:
13 "General education requirements for students shall
14 require the following" -- that's the 45 hours, but
15 if you change that to read, the education major
16 program shall require, you're no longer making
17 reference to general education.
18 If there's a 9-hour requirement and the
19 student picks up 6 in his general education
20 program, that's fine. All he has to do is pick up
21 3 more, and we don't get into the problem with the
22 restriction on general ed because what you're
23 really recommending is an education major program.
24 The student can pick up the general ed hours.
25 For example, 9 hours are required in science. Most
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1 schools require 3 or 6, so he only has to pick up 3
2 or 6 more, but you're not dealing with general ed.
3 You're dealing with programmatic requirements.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Chancellor, you want to
5 comment on that?
6 DR. PROCTOR: It seems to me it eliminates the
7 Chancellor's problems.
8 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Governor, that does
9 eliminate the concern that I have about the 36
10 hours. If it says, "general education
11 requirements," I believe it's a problem. If you're
12 speaking to it in a broader context of education or
13 requirements for students who receive a degree in
14 education and -- what we have to do then is figure
15 out how those remaining hours above the 36 are
16 going to be categorized, but that does address, I
17 would imagine, the legal requirements.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You'll need an
19 Attorney General's opinion by tomorrow morning
20 then?
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If reference to
22 general education is deleted, we would not need
23 that.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I just wanted someone to
25 restate the amendment to the rule, the second
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1 amendment.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Dr. Proctor?
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Proctor, do you want to
4 come back so we can do this, get the specific
5 wording.
6 DR. PROCTOR: It's on page 5 --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
8 DR. PROCTOR: -- and it's Item 1.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: What would you change?
10 DR. PROCTOR: And it reads that, "General
11 education requirements for students shall include
12 the following." I would just say that the
13 education major program shall require the
14 following.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, would you like
16 to make a motion to change that?
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I agree to that
18 change.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second it.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Does this also kind of
23 take care of the timing question?
24 DR. PROCTOR: If you make -- they would have
25 to speak to that from their perspective, but in my
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1 view, if the student -- typically a student has 6
2 hours of English, as I look at the general ed
3 requirement.
4 This course program says 9. It's going to
5 take 6 anyway, one in each semester. He's going to
6 take 6 hours in math, one in each semester. He's
7 going to take 9 to 12 hours of social sciences, one
8 in each semester.
9 He can pick up his fine arts course, one in
10 each semester. You can build a freshman
11 curriculum, and he would really be working on these
12 requirements, I would think.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Chancellor, do you want to
14 comment?
15 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Governor, Members of the
16 Board, we would still urge you to delay this a year
17 so we can go through our governance processes.
18 There are some additional courses that are required
19 in this rule, and we need time to go through the
20 governance process to make sure all that's done, so
21 that the extra year I think is really important.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Having said that though, as it
23 relates to the specific freshman student from his
24 world, from his perspective, this would not -- we
25 would not have to wait. You're saying in terms of
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1 the governance of getting the faculty involved and
2 the change in curriculum and all that.
3 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: The key thing is this,
4 that when a student is admitted into the
5 university, they're admitted under a catalogue --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
7 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: -- with a set of
8 requirements for the completion of a degree, and
9 what I'm urging you to do is to not implement it
10 for this year, but for the next year so that when a
11 student comes in, we have a faculty-adopted program
12 of study that is in the catalogue.
13 We don't have time now to put any of this in
14 the catalogues because they're already completed.
15 Students have been admitted under the catalogue for
16 this year; so what we would do then is implement it
17 effective the 2001 academic year.
18 Students would be admitted understanding what
19 all the requirements are in the context of that
20 catalogue, and that's what they have and obligation
21 to meet. Otherwise --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: This really isn't an
23 accommodation to the student. This is an
24 accommodation to the faculty and to the university
25 because they can still take the English class,
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1 whatever the freshman English class is in that
2 catalogue, and it would still move them towards
3 getting a teacher certificate.
4 CHANCELLOR HERBERT: Well, what I was arguing,
5 Governor, is that it is a contractual obligation.
6 When we admit a student under a catalogue, we're
7 telling them that these are the requirements for
8 this degree.
9 Students we've admitted for this fall have not
10 been told that they have to take these additional
11 hours; so that's what I'm concerned about. If it's
12 2001, then you don't have a problem.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I kind of agree with
14 that. I think a year is going to go by so quick.
15 These policy changes, which, I think, are the right
16 changes, are going to be here before we know it,
17 but it gives them a chance to adjust to it. If
18 we're doing something this significant, a little
19 bit of time probably --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's see if there's any
21 discussions, and we'll get this amendment taken
22 care of, and we'll go back to the rule, or there's
23 other amendments. There's a motion and a second to
24 amend the rule as we have discussed.
25 I don't want to repeat it again. All in favor
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1 say aye.
2 (Affirmative response.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
4 (No response.)
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: The amendment passes. Now,
6 any other discussion on the rule itself?
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I have this other
8 amendment that I think came from the Commissioner
9 of Education. At least, that's what it looks like.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, you want to
11 comment on the other amendment?
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You have Amendment
13 Number 2 there. This amendment does do -- I've
14 been reluctantly holding this back 'cause it does
15 hold off on the general education requirements to
16 the year 2001/2002.
17 It does leave the specialization and the
18 professional education requirements the way they
19 are, but it does give them that break. If that'll
20 make everybody feel better it, I'll move it.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I would be more
22 comfortable with this arrangement.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: In that case, I'll
24 move it.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second it.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: So this amendment will
2 defer --
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- the general
4 education requirements for a year.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second
6 on this amendment. All in favor say aye.
7 (Affirmative response.)
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
9 (No response.)
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. Good timing, Tom.
11 Any discussion on the rule itself?
12 COMPTROLLER GALLAGHER: Move the rule.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Any
15 discussion?
16 (No response.)
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor say aye.
18 (Affirmative response.)
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
20 (No response.)
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: The rule passes. Is there any
22 other --
23 MS. JOELS: I just have one comment, if I may.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. JOELS: Rosie Webb Joels, president of
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1 United Faculty of Florida. The tyranny of the
2 faculty is a myth, but don't tell anybody.
3 MR. PIERSON: We have more agenda,
4 Commissioners.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have to cite a utility plan
6 tonight. What item are we on?
7 MR. PIERSON: Item 13 was deferred through the
8 request of community colleges.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Moved to defer.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded without
12 objection. Motion to defer is approved.
13 MR. PIERSON: Item 14 is an SUS rule,
14 6C-1.0001, general description and address of
15 agency.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
19 objection, it's approved.
20 MR. PIERSON: Item 15 is a Board of Regents'
21 Rule Repeal of Rule , 6C-1, organization, powers,
22 duties, and functions of the Board of Regents.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
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1 objection, it's approved.
2 MR. PIERSON: Item 16 is an amendment to Rule
3 6C-7.001, tuition, fee schedule and percentage of
4 cost, Board of Regents.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
8 objection, it's approved.
9 MR. PIERSON: Item 17 is a Board of Regents
10 amendment to Rule 6C-7.002, fee assessment and
11 remittance.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
15 objection, it's approved.
16 MR. PIERSON: Item 18 is an appointment to the
17 State Board of Community Colleges, Silvia M.
18 Velazquez.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
22 objection, it's approved.
23 MR. PIERSON: Item 19 is an appointment to the
24 District Board of Trustees, Okaoosa-Walton
25 Community College, Estreena K. Wells.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
4 objection, it's approved.
5 MR. PIERSON: Item 20 is a reappointment to
6 the District Board of Trustees, Daytona Beach
7 Community College, Pramila S. Desai.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
11 objection, it's approved. Thank you-all.
12 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
13 concluded.)
14 (Cabinet Meeting concluded at 5:00 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF LEON:
5 I, NANCY P. VETTERICK, do hereby certify that
6 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
7 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
8 notes were thereafter translated under my supervision;
9 and the foregoing pages numbered 200 through 334 are a
10 true and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.
11 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
12 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
13 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or
14 financially interested in the foregoing action.
15 DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF JUNE, 2000.
16
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19 ___________________________
NANCY P. VETTERICK
20 100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FL 32301
21 (850) 878-2221
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