DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
OFFICE OF INSURANCE
REGULATION
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD
BOARD OF
TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
STATE BOARD OF
ADMINISTRATION
The above agencies came to be heard
before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush presiding, in
the
Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee,
Florida,
on the 13th day of April, 2004 commencing at
approximately
9:55 a.m.
Reported by:
KRISTEN L.
BENTLEY
Certified Court Reporter
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS,
INC.
2894 REMINGTON GREEN
LANE
TALLAHASSEE, FL 32308 (850)878-2221
.
2
APPEARANCES:
Representing the Florida Cabinet:
JEB
BUSH
Governor
CHARLES H.
BRONSON
Commissioner of Agriculture
CHARLIE
CRIST
Attorney General
TOM
GALLAGHER
Chief Financial Officer
* * *
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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3
I N D E X
DIVISION OF BOND
FINANCE
(Presented by BEN WATKINS)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
5
2
Approved
5
3
Approved
6
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION
BOARD
(Presented by UNIDENTIFIED)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
7
2
Approved
7
OFFICE OF INSURANCE
REGULATION
(Presented by UNIDENTIFIED)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
9
2
Approved
9
3
Approved
9
4
Approved
10
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST
FUND
(Presented by EVA ARMSTRONG and COLLEEN CASTILLE)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
11
2
Approved
34
3
Approved
35
4
Approved
35
5
DEFERRED
91
6
DEFERRED
91
7
Approved
92
8
Approved
108
9
Approved
108
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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4
I N D E X (Continued)
STATE BOARD OF
ADMINISTRATION
(Presented by COLEMAN STIPANOVICH)
1
Approved
109
2
Approved
109
3
Approved
113
CERTIFICATE OF
REPORTER
114
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - APRIL 13,
2004
5
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: The next cabinet meeting will be
3 Thursday, April
29th. Is that right? Thursday?
4
CFO GALLAGHER: Yep.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess it is. Division of Bond
6 Finance.
7
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes, March 30th.
8
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion and a second.
10 Without objection,
Item 1 passes.
11
Item 2. Ben, how are you?
12
MR. WATKINS: I'm doing very well, Governor. Thank
13 you. Item No. 2
is a resolution authorizing the
14 competitive sale of
up to $130 million in revenue bonds
15 for the Tampa
Hillsborough County Expressway. This is the
16 second piece of
financing that was originally implemented
17 two years ago in
order to complete the funding of the
18 reversible lanes
project in Tampa Hillsborough County.
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 2.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion.
21
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: And a second. Without objection,
23 Item 2 passes.
24
MR. WATKINS: Item 3 is a report of award on the
25 competitive sale of
$23.1 million of housing facility
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - APRIL 13,
2004
6
1 revenue bonds for
Florida State University. It was a
2 combined new money and
refunding issue. The new money
3 component represented
about 16 and a half million dollars
4 of the total.
The refunding component was $6.7 million of
5 the total. The
bonds were awarded to the low bidder at a
6 true interest cost of
4.25 percent and the refunding piece
7 generated gross
savings of about a million and a half
8 dollars or a million
dollars on a present-value basis.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3.
10
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
12 objection, the motion
passes. Thank you.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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FINANCIAL MGMT INFORMATION BOARD - APRIL 13,
2004
7
1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Financial Management Information
2 Board.
3
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the January 27th meeting
4 minutes.
5
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion and a second on
7 Item 1. Without
objection, the motion passes.
8
Item 2. Good morning.
9
MR. NORTHAM: Good morning, Governor, cabinet
10 members. The
second and final item on our agenda is the
11 acceptance of the ERP
Integration Task Force Quarterly
12 Report.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion.
14
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
16 objection, the item
passes. Can I ask a question?
17
MR. NORTHAM: Yes, sir.
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Have you followed the proviso
19 language in, I think
it's the House budget, that suggests
20 that if a vendor does
-- something related to either
21 vendors or jobs
created overseas that it's not allowed. I
22 was just wondering,
isn't SAP our -- who's the vendor?
23
CFO GALLAGHER: People Soft.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: People Soft?
25
CFO GALLAGHER: (Nods affirmatively.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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FINANCIAL MGMT INFORMATION BOARD - APRIL 13,
2004
8
1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do they do all of their contracts in
2 state?
3
CFO GALLAGHER: That's a contract that already
4 exists so it's not an
issue. It would have to be in the
5 future.
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think the reality of these ideas
7 though are --
8
CFO GALLAGHER: I can tell you it's very expensive.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- foolhardy. So you haven't looked
10 at that?
11
MR. NORTHAM: No, sir.
12
CFO GALLAGHER: You get to veto things, Governor.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, it's hard to veto proviso
14 language in the
budget. I've done it before. Thank you.
15
MR. NORTHAM: Thank you, sir.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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OFFICE OF INSURANCE REGULATION - APRIL 13,
2004
9
1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Office of Insurance Regulation.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes of
3 January 27th
meeting.
4
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
6 Without objection,
Item 1 passes.
7
Item 2.
8
MR. McCARTY: Item 2 is adoption of the amendments to
9 the rule.
Chapter 690-149, filing of forms and rates for
10 life and health
insurance.
11
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 2.
12
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
14 Without objection,
Item 2 passes.
15
MR. McCARTY: Item Agenda 3 is adoption of amendments
16 to Rule Chapter
690-149 for the adoption of standard risk
17 rates. The
rates are amended to adopt the new standard
18 risk rates as
required by statute.
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3.
20
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
22 Without objection,
the item passes.
23
MR. McCARTY: Agenda Item No. 4 is repeal of Rule
24 690-166.045, special
purpose homeowners insurance company
25 notice
requirements.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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OFFICE OF INSURANCE REGULATION - APRIL 13,
2004
10
1
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 4.
2
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
4 objection, the item
passes.
5
MR. McCARTY: Item 5 is recommendation of Ray Neff to
6 be designated as the
chairman of the board of directors of
7 the Florida Workers'
Comp Joint Underwriting Association.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on five.
9
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
11 objection, the item
passes. Thank you, Kevin.
12
MR. McCARTY: Thank you, Governor, members of the
13 commission.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
11
1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Board of Trustees.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes of January
3 27th, February 10th,
and February 26th.
4
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh-oh. I don't see Colleen. There
6 is a motion on Item 1
and a second. Without objection,
7 the item passes.
8
MS. ARMSTRONG: Item 2, we have -- I'll step in for
9 her for just a
minute. She was talking to a staff member
10 out there. We
have a special presentation for you related
11 to the Apalachicola
River. And I'd like to ask Vicki
12 Tschinkel, the State
director for the Nature Conservancy,
13 and Eric Draper,
Government Relations Director for Florida
14 Audubon to step
up.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Vicky, Eric, good
16 morning.
17
MS. TSCHINKEL: Good morning, Governor. Gentlemen.
18 This is an unusual
event and we really are here to thank
19 all of you.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's unusual?
21
(Laughter.)
22
MS. TSCHINKEL: I'm always here to thank you,
23 Governor. But
this time I'm really thanking you.
24
CFO GALLAGHER: We didn't do anything yet.
25
MS. TSCHINKEL: No, but you have. It's very unusual,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
12
1 I think, in most human
endeavors that we can look back on
2 fairly consistent
behavior and devotion to an objective.
3 And the State of
Florida, through thick and thin, has been
4 working on the
protection of the Apalachicola River for
5 over 30 years.
Starting with the assistance to helping
6 the federal government
buy St. Vincent's Island in 1968.
7
So we thought that it would be worth, as they say in
8 modern parlance, to
take a moment and think about what
9 we've accomplished,
yes, and some challenges ahead. But
10 to really think about
this special river. It's kind of
11 wide. It's the
widest floodplain of any river in Florida.
12 It's silent.
It's modest and complex. But it is being
13 allowed to do what a
river should do. It's free to
14 provide what nature
intended, at least almost always free
15 to do what nature
intended. Also, at the same time, I
16 don't know if
Secretary Castille has came in yet or not.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: She made it.
18
MS. TSCHINKEL: She is here. We want to take the
19 opportunity to pass
the official banner of protection to
20 Colleen and the
Florida -- Audubon of Florida and the
21 Nature Conservancy
have prepared a special commemorative
22 for today, the
Apalachicola Day that you have declared in
23 your
resolution. And this is a compendium of many
24 wonderful visual
thoughts about the Apalachicola River and
25 we're giving Colleen
the first copy of this. And for
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
13
1 that, I'd like to
invite Eric Draper up here, who's
2 already up here, who
is the policy director for Audubon of
3 Florida.
4
So, Colleen, we're just so proud to see you in this
5 position and we're so
proud that you're going to have the
6 opportunity to work on
the river in a new capacity. I
7 know you've been
working for many years. And I hope that
8 you will get many
minutes of enjoyment looking through
9 those pictures.
10
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you very much.
11
MS. TSCHINKEL: Thank you. What we would like to do
12 now -- and we're
going to do it quickly, we know you are
13 very busy -- is we're
going to give you just a very short
14 version, a very few
of those photographs, mention a few
15 important things
about the river. And then we would like
16 to take the
opportunity to introduce to Colleen some of
17 the people she may
not already know who are sitting here,
18 who have worked on
the Apalachicola River, some way longer
19 than even I have,
which I won't talk about how long that's
20 been.
21
And we may have one or two elected officials who
22 would choose to speak
briefly. But we're going to be very
23 quick. So I'm
going to turn it over now to Eric who's
24 going to start with a
first few slides.
25
(Thereupon, the video presentation was displayed.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
14
1
MR. DRAPER: Thank you very much. Eric Draper with
2 Audubon of Florida
presenting to you a short slide show on
3 the Apalachicola
River. The State and conservation
4 partners have been
working to protect the Apalachicola
5 River and bay for more
than 30 years. It begins in the
6 Blue Ridge Mountains
and it's the only river in Florida
7 that actually carries
snow melt from the mountains,
8 terminates in the
Apalachicola Bay and is one of the most
9 productive and
pristine bays in North America. It's the
10 primary nursery area
for Gulf of Mexico species. In terms
11 of magnitude of flow,
the Apalachicola River is the
12 largest river in
Florida, the fifth largest river flowing
13 into the Gulf of
Mexico. And it's --
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's the picture the guy got in
15 trouble with making a
comment on. Never mind, I won't say
16 it this time.
17
MR. DRAPER: Well, here's another statistic for you.
18 Which it is one of
only six biodiversity hot spots in the
19 United States.
And some locals even consider it the
20 Garden of Eden.
It is a complex rivering system of steep
21 ravines, marshes,
barrier islands, and upland lobleaf
22 pines ponds. It
is the largest floodplain forest in
23 Florida at 112,000
acres. And at one time supported a
24 thriving timber
industry.
25
There are 131 freshwater fish species and 33 mussel
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
15
1 species living in the
Apalachicola River basin. So it's
2 really quite
biodiverse. It also supports the largest
3 population of flatwood
salamanders which you see pictured
4 here. It is a
haven for rare and endangered species. And
5 the Gulf sturgeon,
which is not pictured here, primeval
6 fish used to travel up
this river two to 300 miles to
7 spawn on the limestone
shoals as a historic fishery for
8 the Gulf.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Eric, are you going to show the
10 picture of the bear
in the bay?
11
(Laughter.)
12
MR. DRAPER: I'm not looking at this. My text does
13 not show a bear
thing. We're moving to birds now.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
15
MR. DRAPER: This is something I actually know
16 something about,
Governor.
17
(Laughter.)
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Beautiful.
19
MR. DRAPER: Thank you. That was helpful. This is
20 the annual spring
migration of birds through this area.
21 Millions of songbirds
right now are leaving South America,
22 moving through Cuba,
moving through the Florida Keys, and
23 moving right up into
this vortex of floodplain forest
24 along the Gulf Coast,
working their way north. And some
25 of these are also
resident species such as the pileated
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
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1 woodpecker,
red-cockaded woodpecker, resident species,
2 very important and
make up part of the biodiversity of
3 this area. We
also have, a lot of times we talk about the
4 oysters that are so
important in the Apalachicola Bay but
5 we don't talk about
the oyster catchers, which is actually
6 a very charismatic
bird and draw people from all over the
7 country who come to
Florida specifically to bird-watch and
8 of course spend their
very good eco tourism dollars here.
9 So birds are a very
important part --
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: You called them a charismatic bird?
11
MR. DRAPER: I would call the oyster catcher a
12 charismatic bird.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Because it draws people to the --
14
MR. DRAPER: They do. People come from all over the
15 country --
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't doubt it. I just never heard
17 the term used for a
bird before. They are beautiful.
18
(Laughter.)
19
MR. DRAPER: I'm supposed to pay attention to this
20 monitor.
21
MS. TSCHINKEL: Oh, I pay attention to the governor
22 and the cabinet
members.
23
I don't know if they mean the bird itself is
24 charismatic,
Governor. But bird watchers are very
25 charismatic
people. They'll drive all over the word to
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
17
1 see a particular
bird. And I guess they see something
2 there that is very
special.
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: They are. They're beautiful.
4
MS. TSCHINKEL: We've already talked about the
5 oysters. And
there's a lot more to protecting oysters and
6 protecting river
flow. We also have a lot of agencies in
7 Florida that have to
protect the health of the water or
8 the oysters can't be
eaten. So we have a lot of agencies
9 that are involved that
are not even environmental
10 agencies. But
unless for some weird reason you want to
11 eat oysters from some
other state, we got to protect the
12 Apalachicola oysters
because 90 percent of Florida's
13 oysters come from
that river.
14
Then there's this other funny statistic which I don't
15 have quite right but
something like 70 percent of the blue
16 crabs in the entire
United States that you eat spend part
17 of their larval life
or other life in Apalachicola Bay.
18 It's way more than 50
percent. And that stuff you get up
19 in Maryland, you ask
where those blue crabs come from.
20 But, you know, we've
had a long interactive human --
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: How does this work?
22
MS. TSCHINKEL: Next time you go to the White House
23 and they serve you
some blue crabs you tell me.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: How does the crab travel to Maryland?
25
MS. TSCHINKEL: Well, those crabs don't. But
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
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1 actually, they harvest
them further south and they just
2 bring them up and they
call them oysters. And then you
3 have to say, Are those
Maryland oysters? Then they get
4 real embarrassed.
5
We've had this kind of relationship with this river
6 for a long time.
It's a logging area. It still is. But
7 it brought cotton down
from the mid 1800s, all through the
8 early 1920s. So
it was used for transport, still used for
9 logging cypress, long
leaf pine, hydropower, recreation,
10 of course
fishing. Now the fishing industry is special
11 because it is
special. We have a way of life in
12 Apalachicola that
doesn't exist in very many cities in the
13 United States of
America anymore because we have a healthy
14 fishing village there
that is now also becoming a very
15 healthy chic village
as people -- I keep reading about it
16 in the New York Times
which is kind of weird. But it's
17 also becoming a major
development area. The current
18 estimated value of
the river to Florida is two-and-a-half
19 billion dollars a
year. If you take the broader basin
20 into account, it's
probably more than double that. I
21 like --
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: What you're saying is that
23 Representative
Kendrick is chic? And Representative
24 Bense?
25
MS. TSCHINKEL: It's -- we all can make our
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES - APRIL 13,
2004
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1 decisions. We
can all make our decisions about how sheik
2 we want to to
be. But it's interesting. People are
3 noticing this
place. It's become very special. 350,000
4 pounds a year of
Tupelo honey are harvested from the
5 word's largest Tupelo
forest in that basin. And those
6 bees are moved in
there. You know, so there's people
7 actually moving bees
in there for the special honey during
8 the season and then
they move them out.
9
There are tremendous recreational opportunities
10 there. Anything
you want, hiking, fishing, hunting,
11 picnicking, bird
watching -- even bird watching, Eric.
12 And there is horse
trails and of course wonderful swimming
13 out on the
coast. There are many partners working
14 together on
this. We have federal partners, U.S. Forest
15 Service, U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service. We have
16 important
nongovernmental entities. The Florida Wildlife
17 Federation. The
Apalachicola Bay and River Keepers that
18 have been doing a
great job locally. Our agencies,
19 Northwest Florida
Water Management District, you-all,
20 Department of
Environmental Protection taking a lead.
21 It's amazing how many
agencies are involved in this river.
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: Department of Defense?
23
MS. TSCHINKEL: That's right, Department of Defense
24 now.
25
In all, the State of Florida, in those 30 years, has
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1 invested more than
$165 million in protecting this river.
2 For the return, annual
return, of the benefits of the
3 river, that seems
small. We've got public lands with
4 exotic names, Torreya
State Park, the Apalachicola
5 National Forest.
I always liked Dead Lake State Park. I
6 always thought we
could have done better on that one. The
7 St. George Island
State Park, don't forget, that's part of
8 the same system.
And the list goes on and on.
9
This is an investment in our future, our quality of
10 life, and our natural
heritage. You know, nothing that is
11 worth having that's
wonderful is not worth fighting for.
12 Hopefully we don't
have to fight very hard but the threats
13 of development and
pollution, overlogging, all these
14 things are things we
have to worry about. The delicate
15 balance of this
amazingly quiet river, just how much fresh
16 water there is, when
it comes in, all those things affect
17 what the animals are
going to be in the floodplain and the
18 bay. And
unfortunately nature does this to a fairly close
19 call.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't forget Atlanta.
21
MS. TSCHINKEL: Well, I wasn't going to mention that
22 but you mentioned it,
so yes. And it is true, withdraws
23 both for agriculture
and I just read that the two fastest
24 growing counties I
think in the U.S. are in Atlanta. And
25 just look at the map
and we are very dependent on the
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1 goodwill of the people
of Georgia to help us with this.
2
So our goal, to finish up, our goal today has been to
3 acknowledge the
incredible work of our State, particularly
4 our State governmental
officials and all the people who've
5 worked in science,
government and as private citizens to
6 protect the river all
this time. And we want to encourage
7 and support you as you
continue to do this wonderful job
8 and we're all here
today to show that support and show
9 that encouragement to
you.
10
In the end, our society will be defined not only by
11 what we create, but
by what we refuse to destroy, and that
12 was the former head
of the Nature Conservancy. It's an
13 important quote to
think about.
14
Thank you so much for your wonderful attention. And
15 I would like to take
the opportunity with Eric to
16 introduce the people
that are here. But we would like to
17 introduce speaker
designate Bense if that would be all
18 right for him to
speak first.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess so.
20
(Laughter.)
21
REPRESENTATIVE BENSE: Thank you, Governor.
22 Appreciate the --
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Nice haircut. I got one too.
24
(Laughter.)
25
REPRESENTATIVE BENSE: You like that, huh? It helps
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1 our image a little
bit, I think. I want to take just a
2 minute, Governor, to
really thank you for your hard work
3 on the preservation of
the Apalachicola River. When Port
4 St. Joe and Gulf
County and Apalachicola were added to my
5 district back in 2002,
it reignited a fondness I've always
6 had for the
Apalachicola River since I was a boy. And I
7 tell you, we have a
wonderful opportunity here.
8
We are going to spend eight billion dollars to fix up
9 the Everglades, and
for a lot less than that, a lot less
10 than that, we can
save the Apalachicola River from the
11 same destiny that the
Everglades suffered from. And,
12 Governor, I commend
you for your efforts to protect the
13 river. You
know, we really have four key issues with the
14 river. Number
one is the fact that Georgia is trying to
15 take too much water
for their issues in Atlanta.
16
Secondly, we have dredging going on in the river for
17 32 boats, for barges
that pass through it every year,
18 which is
ridiculous. And, thirdly, we have some pollution
19 points along the
river that we're eliminating. And,
20 lastly, the
developments going along on the river and
21 you've addressed all
those issues, Governor. And you
22 fought Georgia when
they thought they had the upper hand
23 in trying to get a
higher ratio of water. And I
24 appreciate your
efforts. And the cabinet and general,
25 thank you for your
efforts for fighting to keep the
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1 Apalachicola River the
way it is now and protecting those
2 jobs in the seafood
industry that we have in Apalachicola
3 and let's keep on
fighting. Thanks a lot.
4
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Allan.
5
MS. TSCHINKEL: We'd like to just recognize briefly
6 some people.
But, first, Representative Will Kendrick
7 who's been down here
with us for about an hour. I don't
8 know where he's
sitting right now. There he is. We just
9 wanted to wave hello
and say thank you so much for coming.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: Representative Kendrick, who's with
11 you? I saw some
young people came in with you. Where are
12 they from?
13
REPRESENTATIVE KENDRICK: My future body guards from
14 Cross City.
15
(Laughter.)
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: He needs the support.
17
MS. TSCHINKEL: We're going to just briefly recognize
18 people by asking them
to stand as a group. State Agency
19 and Federal Agency
program partners, Ken Haddad, I think
20 is here or he was
planning on being here. John Brown from
21 the Division of
Forestry. Great. Gary Knight from the
22 Florida Natural Areas
Inventory. And we may have somebody
23 here from the U.S.
Forest Service and U.S. Fish and
24 Wildlife
Commission. So I want to thank them for coming
25 as well.
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1
MR. DRAPER: We also have representatives from our
2 federal
legislators. Danny Collins representing
3 Representative Alan
Boyd. And representing Senator
4 Graham -- I'm sorry,
Senator Graham sends his regards. We
5 have from local
government and civic groups, we have
6 Cheryl Sanders, a
Franklin County Commission Chair. And
7 from my environmental
colleagues, Grahal Farr with Florida
8 Wildlife
Federation. Lester Abberger, a board member of
9 1000 Friends of
Florida; David McClain, Apalachicola Bay
10 and River Keepers
along with Lee Edmiston. Roy Rogers who
11 is the chairman of
the board of the Nature Conservancy's
12 Florida
chapter. We have John Eubanks, Liberty County
13 Chamber of Commerce,
county support there. And John
14 Robert Middlemass,
member of the board of directors of
15 both the Nature
Conservancy and Audubon of Florida.
16
MS. TSCHINKEL: And to finish up, just a couple more
17 landowners. We
are very, very grateful to the landowners
18 who've worked with us
there and allowed the State of
19 Florida to purchase
these important lands. I think George
20 Wilson, representing
the St. Joe company is here. And
21 there are former
government officials, scientists, and
22 state agency people
who contributed a good part of their
23 careers. Bobby
Howell, who I think might be also General
24 Howell, although I
get confused, with the clerk of the
25 court in Franklin
County when this protection started a
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1 long time ago.
Pam McVety who used to worked for you,
2 Governor, in
DEP. And Steve Leitman who is the civilian
3 protector for many
years of the Apalachicola River.
4
We thank you so much for your courtesy. And,
5 Colleen, we're all
ready to help you any way we can. We
6 don't want to get in
the way, but we want to be there.
7
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you. It's an incredible
8 partnership that has
been put together on protecting both
9 the water and the
lands around the Apalachicola River and
10 we are very grateful
for all of your help because we can't
11 do it alone and it
takes citizen initiative in order for
12 us to accomplish
anything. So thank you all for being
13 here. And thank
you for your constant work and vigilance
14 on everything with
this river and with the land
15 surrounding it.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for the presentation.
17
(Applause.)
18
MS. CASTILLE: And, Governor, members of the cabinet,
19 that's a perfect
segue into our next item, Item 2, which
20 is the acceptance of
an assignment option agreement from
21 the Nature
Conservancy to acquire 1604 acres in the
22 St. Joe Timberlands
Project.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on two.
24
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion and a second. I
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1 have a question.
2
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir.
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there someone here that can
4 discuss the timber
value one more time for me so I can get
5 my arms around
this?
6
MS. CASTILLE: We have Zack Ryan here to discuss the
7 timber values.
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Help me. Welcome back.
9
MR. RYAN: Thank you very much.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: The general question I have really is
11 we are buying this
land obviously not to harvest the
12 timber.
Although maybe there is some agreement for some
13 limited harvesting, I
don't remember. But we buy the land
14 and typically, unless
this is in the path of development,
15 the only other option
is to -- that someone might be
16 interested in
purchasing it for timber value; isn't that
17 correct? I mean
that's the general --
18
MR. RYAN: Yes, sir.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: So it's legitimate to put a value if
20 we're competing with
people that would want to purchase
21 the property for
timber value. I'm interested in really
22 two things, just to
focus your attention. One is how do
23 you value timber and
what's the latest trends in that.
24 And where are these
buyers? Are there buyers in the same
25 area that are
purchasing timberlands and competing with
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1 the State? That
will give me comfort to know that we're
2 taking those two
things, in a thoughtful way, taking those
3 into
consideration.
4
MR. RYAN: If I may, let me introduce Jerry Brooks
5 with Natural Resource
Planning Services. Jerry was the
6 consulting forester
that was hired on that project, hired
7 by our firm to assist
in cruising the timber and
8 appraising the timber
for purposes of incorporating those
9 results into our
overall final appraisal. So we can --
10 we're prepared here
to answer your question in several
11 different ways.
Certainly Jerry can answer the questions
12 regarding the
technical aspects of how the timber was
13 initially valued,
what the competitive market is for that
14 product, et cetera,
who's buying it. And then if there
15 are other questions
as to how that was incorporated into
16 the overall appraisal
assignment, I can answer those. So
17 I'll turn it over to
Jerry for the moment.
18
MR. BROOKS: Well, I did the timber appraisal along
19 the Torreya, the Neil
Torreya tract. And in answer to the
20 question I think
you're asking, there is a very
21 competitive timber
market in that area, both cypress,
22 hardwood and of
course pine. Pine being the biggest in
23 the northwest Florida
area, most of the mills we have are
24 devoted to
pine. But there is also a very active cypress
25 market and that there
is a cypress mill at Blountstown and
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1 there is another at
Hosford. Cypress is in short demand
2 so there is a very
active market for that. Plus,
3 hardwood, both
pulpwood and saw timber which this tract
4 consisted mostly
of. There is hardwood saw mills and, of
5 course, paper mills
that use the pulpwood.
6
And the second part of your question was is there --
7 are there people out
there actively pursuing to purchase
8 those forest
lands? The --
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: You just answered, you said yes,
10 didn't you?
11
MR. BROOKS: There is also people actively purchasing
12 forest land with
timber, not just the timber.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
14
MR. RYAN: So absolutely in general there is a very
15 active market for the
component separate and independent
16 of one another and
for the land in a total package. There
17 is competition from
pension fund players. There's
18 competition from
recreational users. There is competition
19 from long-term,
short-term, mid-term, speculative
20 investors.
There is -- the acreage market, I've said a
21 number of times, is
absolutely on fire, not just in the
22 State of Florida but
throughout the Southeast, and there
23 is an active, very
active competition for properties
24 ranging anywhere from
this size up to the 10s and 20s and
25 30,000s of acres at a
time.
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: So how many 20,000-acre tracts of
2 land, other than the
state, have been purchased in this
3 area in the last two
or three years?
4
MR. RYAN: In this particular area or in the state of
5 Florida?
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: No, this particular area.
7
MR. RYAN: North Florida, I can think of perhaps at
8 least a half a dozen
in that size range within the past
9 two-year period
easily, that have transferred to the
10 private sector.
It's very active. I'm working with some
11 people right now in
Georgia regarding hundreds of
12 thousands of acres
and there's going to be stiff
13 competition for
it. It really does happen. It's a very
14 active market and I'd
be happy to provide you specific
15 examples of those if
you'd like me to follow up with them.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: I would. Treasurer?
17
CFO GALLAGHER: The value of, say, pine basically
18 thinning most of it
out and everything is like maybe 700
19 bucks an acre?
20
MR. BROOKS: Pardon me?
21
CFO GALLAGHER: The value of pine that's not great
22 big trees but
medium-sized, say they're 20 some years old,
23 would be about $700
an acre?
24
MR. BROOKS: Approximately, yes, sir.
25
CFO GALLAGHER: So when we're looking at this and
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1 we're paying, I don't
know, I guess --
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: 1600.
3
CFO GALLAGHER: 1600 you could figure --
4
MR. BROOKS: This was exceptional timber.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: Had a lot of hardwood in it?
6
MR. BROOKS: Most of it was hardwood and there was
7 some extremely good
cypress. The pine there was very
8 good. We were
discussing earlier, the average heights,
9 for instance, of the
cypress and pine timber on this tract
10 was averaging over
100 feet and diameters were, breast
11 height were, you
know, a lot of them averaging in the
12 20-inch range.
So this was superior timber to what we run
13 into most of the
time. This was exceptional stuff.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: The other buyers buy at the same
15 basis that we
do? We buy it for the underlying value of
16 the land and then we
buy it for the timber value and add
17 it up and that's what
we pay?
18
MR. RYAN: And that's a wonderful question. This
19 property was
exceptional in --
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think I asked that question to you
21 a while back.
22
MR. RYAN: Yes, you did, indeed. This property was
23 exceptional in all
categories. In fact, it was the focus
24 of a field trip for a
previous set of cabinet aides about
25 three years
ago. I took a group of them out there because
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1 everything about this
property is unusual and unique. It
2 classifies as almost
90 percent wetlands. You stand in it
3 and your feet are
completely dry. You can pick up sand.
4 It's just incredibly
unique in that regard. It's not your
5 stereotypical wetlands
in any shape, form or fashion.
6 Hardwood timber, often
you will run into values of five to
7 $700 an acre in this
region simply because you do not have
8 the quality and size
of hardwood timber that you do in
9 other areas of the
country. This tract has that type
10 product on it.
It's largely saw timber. It is not a
11 pulp -- it has only a
small portion of pulpwood product.
12 The majority of it is
a high quality and high grade of
13 timber.
14
So it's very exceptional on both sides of the
15 equation, land and
timber. And for that very reason, in
16 appraising the
property, I had to look at the two
17 components separate
and independent and make a
18 determination at the
end as to how I thought those two
19 components would play
in the market. And both aspects,
20 both components of
the property, were very well supported
21 and I believe would
perform extremely well in competition.
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: Could you answer the question then as
23 it relates to -- if
timber -- if a timber company wants to
24 buy timberland, they
are buying the land because of the
25 timber, right?
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1
MR. RYAN: That's correct.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: And there's a residual value that, I
3 guess, could be
resold. So is there a point past which
4 the robust market that
you described goes because, you
5 know, the economics of
it don't work, or do they buy the
6 underlying land value
and the timber just like we do even
7 though we are not
going to harvest the timber?
8
MR. RYAN: You are in direct competition with them.
9 They are in
competition with you. And it's not just in
10 this state.
Yes, they do -- to answer your question
11 directly, yes, they
do, in many of the markets, look at
12 the components.
And again, I'm consulting with some
13 individuals right now
on the brokerage side and that's
14 exactly how we're
approaching the possible acquisition of
15 the property.
16
And it's a much larger piece than this, it's 30,000
17 acres, and it's in a
transitional area. And my clients
18 are saying, Let's
look at our land component and then
19 let's have our timber
valued, and we will make our offer
20 based on those two
components. But it does depend, there
21 can be exceptions,
but absolutely, yes, it does happen and
22 you're not doing
something exceptional here.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Were there other offers on this
24 property?
25
MR. RYAN: Not to my knowledge. This -- it's
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1 currently owned by the
Nature Conservancy and being
2 transferred to
you. So in that particular part of the
3 process, I don't know
that that was an option.
4
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. I'm asking these questions
5 because if I don't, we
just go about our merry way and pay
6 more than we
should. And I hope you're not worried about
7 that. That's
just my job.
8
MR. RYAN: We may look a little beat up but --
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: You did better this time.
10
MR. RYAN: Thank you very much.
11
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: If I may too, on these types
12 of transactions,
especially if our Division of Forestry
13 ends up being the
managing part of one of these
14 situations, we look
at the timber that was planted. If
15 it's planted timber,
many times what you'll find on these
16 lands is because
slash pine grows much faster, softer
17 timber much faster,
they'll plant it because they can pull
18 it off quicker if
you're in that business, if you're in
19 the timber
business.
20
What we do is go in and look at the soil types and
21 all as to what trees
-- if we go in and take trees out for
22 one reason or
another, we may not plant the same pines
23 back in that
area. We may put long leaf in certain areas
24 or, I've seen people
trying to grow long leaf on sand pine
25 land. That
usually doesn't work that well because they
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1 don't grow as fast or
don't grow as well.
2
But if Forestry is a part of this, then what we do is
3 go in and take
standards that the Forestry Association has
4 put up on land
types. And so therefore, this piece of
5 land in 50 or 75 years
may look a little bit different
6 than it does today
depending on what they decide needs to
7 go back as they pull
timber out for disease and so forth
8 and replant. And
a lot of our state land deals like this,
9 those issues are
reworked, replanted. And what you're
10 going to have is what
most people consider to be a more
11 natural Florida
situation when it comes back instead of
12 planting it for
timber itself.
13
So there is a difference in how this will probably
14 look by the time
we're very old and can't get around.
15 Somebody will have to
push us out tere to take a look at
16 it.
17
(Laughter.)
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions? There is a
19 motion and a
second. Without objection, the motion
20 passes. Thank
you.
21
Item 3. There may be other questions. Don't leave.
22 I'm finished asking
questions but others may.
23
MS. CASTILLE: The responses that Zack and Jerry gave
24 were across the board
on all three of the properties.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: I understand.
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1
MS. CASTILLE: Item 3 is a purchase agreement to
2 acquire 833 acres in
Gadsden County, Apalachicola River
3 Florida Forever
Project.
4
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3.
5
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
7 Without objection, the
item passes.
8
MS. CASTILLE: Item 4 is a purchase agreement to
9 acquire 278 acres, the
Neil purchase, as part of the
10 Apalachicola River
Florida Forever Project.
11
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 4.
12
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
14 objection, the item
passes.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion to defer No. 5.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion to defer?
17
MS. CASTILLE: No. 5?
18
CFO GALLAGHER: Yeah, I'd like to give them a couple
19 more weeks to
negotiate with -- and let them actually go
20 down and actually try
to meet with them and get it going.
21 Either we can do that
or we can sit here and talk about it
22 for about an
hour.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, a lot of people have come. How
24 many people have come
to talk on Item 5?
25
(Pause.)
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1
That's quite a few people.
2
MS. CASTILLE: And our last negotiation session was
3 with Mr. Hardy's
attorney this morning before the cabinet
4 meeting.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: I guess you could report on that.
6
MS. CASTILLE: Not any different than it was on
7 Friday.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: That's what I figured.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I think it would be important
10 to have the -- first,
out of respect for the folks that
11 came, to allow people
to be heard. And, secondly, I
12 haven't made up my
mind on it. I'd like to hear from
13 the -- Mr. Hardy's
representative. I want to look him in
14 the eye, whoever that
is. And his son has come all the
15 way up. So at a
minimum, we ought to say hello to him.
16
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. Well, I'll withdraw my motion
17 at this time.
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Treasurer.
19
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, Treasurer.
20
Item 5, the decision before you today is to request
21 the waiver of the
trustees' policy prohibiting use of
22 eminent domain action
upon a homestead property. And
23 secondly, to direct
the Department to acquire Mr. Jesse
24 Hardy's property,
upon which two bona fide offers have
25 been made. And,
thirdly, to delegate authority to prepare
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1 and execute the
paperwork.
2
The Everglades Restoration Project and conservation
3 of natural lands are
our top two environmental priorities.
4 Southern Golden Gate
Estates was the first construction
5 project to begin the
restoration. Governor, as you
6 recall, it was
recently as last October that you and
7 representatives of
Federal and State working groups met on
8 the banks of the
prairie canal for the historic
9 groundbreaking of the
very first CERP project, Project 1,
10 Phase 1. We
have a picture of that same canal for you
11 today and we're proud
to be able to tell you that Phase 1
12 is a success.
The water levels are returning as expected
13 and that is good
news. Our engineers were right.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Anybody question them?
15
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir. We get questions on
16 everything we
propose. Because the goal of the Southern
17 Golden Gate Estates
project is not only to restore the
18 sheet flow, a slow
flow of fresh water to Fakahatchee Bay
19 and the Ten Thousand
Islands, but to replenish the well
20 fields of the city of
Naples, provide water storage for
21 both the surface
water and the underground water and to
22 provide flood
protections to citizens north of I-75.
23
So the success of this project is vitally important
24 to the millions of
people who live in southwest Florida as
25 well as the economic
and environmental health of the
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1 southwest
Everglades. This has been a complicated
2 project, 19,000
parcels of land. Land to be bought, all
3 by handful in State
ownership as we speak. And of those,
4 17 were homesteads and
only one holdout, Mr. Jesse Hardy.
5 The others have been
successfully resolved and relocation
6 of those homesteads is
in process.
7
This brings us to the issue at hand today. The last
8 homesteading citizen
has failed to participate in the
9 public education
process informing property owners of the
10 effect of the
restoration project and has begun an
11 aquaculture business
just three years ago. The rock pits
12 being constructed to
facilitate the fish ponds will act as
13 giant sinks and draw
groundwater in much the same way the
14 canals we are filling
draw groundwater.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Colleen, excuse me. Who gave the
16 permit for the rock
pits, I guess that's what you call
17 them? State
government?
18
MS. CASTILLE: It is not a permit. He gets an
19 exemption from the
Department of Agriculture.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: So State government gave him the
21 right to dig the
hole?
22
MS. CASTILLE: The county gave him the permit, gave
23 him the right.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: If he got an exemption from the
25 Department of
Agriculture, the right was given to him by
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1 the Department of
Agriculture here, right?
2
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Well, Governor, if I can --
3 and we have gone down
to take a look at Mr. Hardy's
4 operation. Mr.
Hardy's operation meets all of the
5 applicable standards
with best management practices and
6 everything else that's
required under an aquaculture
7 permit. And that
is the permit that Mr. Hardy is
8 operating under.
9
Now whether people agree with the size of the hole
10 that he's digging or
whatever else, I can tell you that if
11 you go to Hardee
County or if you go to Polk County or
12 some of these other
counties that have pits that are just
13 as big, if not
bigger, they are loaded full of fish. And
14 that's what he plans
to do, is up put these pits full of
15 fish as his
operation.
16
So from -- the question is really in the nutshell, do
17 we need to condemn
because the whole area is going to
18 flood or is his area
going to be out of the flood area.
19 And is he operating
under the rules and regulations of
20 aquaculture in the
state of Florida. And I can tell you
21 he's operating based
on everything we've seen under those
22 rules and has a bona
fide fish operation.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, here's the problem,
24 Commissioner.
This plan -- this project has been underway
25 for how many
years? Long time?
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1
MR. BARNETT: Fifteen.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's not whether -- it's not whether
3 the hole, the pond,
whatever, it's bigger than a pond.
4 Whatever that thing
is.
5
MS. CASTILLE: Rock pit.
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: Complies with the best practices for
7 aquaculture. I
mean, that's what you-all have to look at,
8 but let's assume for a
moment this property stays, he has
9 a homestead with the
commercial operation on it, which is
10 kind of unique, and
we redesign the project around it,
11 what kind of
mitigation would be required to make sure
12 that indigenous --
that this indigenous plants -- that
13 plants from other
places that may be on the property don't
14 migrate onto the
restored area. How do we protect the
15 property from
creating problems with the very fish that
16 are being harvested
there and its impact on the restored
17 area? There are
a lot of questions, off-site issues now
18 that we'd have to
deal with. So that was my principal
19 question I have is,
was any thought given to granting this
20 commercial operation
in the middle of a project where we
21 knew we were making
an effort to buy all the land.
22
MR. BARNETT: Governor, Ernie Barnett with the
23 Department of
Environmental Protection. I want to address
24 a couple of your
issues. And with respect to Commissioner
25 Bronson, we are in
agreement, the aquaculture operation is
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1 in full compliance
with the BMPs. And under the
2 agriculture exemption,
under 373, the IRC permitting, he's
3 done everything
proper. Their inspections are all
4 adequate and up to
date and we're very confident with
5 that.
6
There is a secondary issue of equal importance. And
7 that is clearly when
the agriculture exemption was issued,
8 it was never
contemplated that it would also have an
9 ancillary, what we
would view, as a mining operation. So
10 there are provisions
under 376 that have not been met,
11 like a mind
reclamation plan, some of the things, the
12 footprint in which
the sorted and graded material may trip
13 other thresholds for
regulatory action.
14
We, as an agency, have just become aware of the size
15 and magnitude of what
it means. And we have looked very
16 carefully. We
have not proceeded with any enforcement
17 action that may or
may not be appropriate at this point
18 because quite
frankly, we've been trying to do a willing
19 seller
acquisition. And any enforcement action on our
20 part would very much
be viewed as devaluing of his
21 property and unfair
treatment in an acquisition phase.
22
So we are walking through -- I agree with the
23 Commissioner 100
percent. Their agency has done a great
24 job. In
fairness to the Department of Agriculture, at the
25 time in which he
applied for the aquaculture exemption
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1 permit, it was three
years ago. We didn't have a
2 preferred plan, we
didn't know the exact effect on this
3 property. We had
a lot of uncertainty. We are not there
4 today. Today we
do know there will be flooding. We do
5 know there's adverse
effects and the landscape has
6 changed.
7
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, let's just accelerate this
8 conversation and then
we'll have people come up and visit.
9 But is there a way to
protect the restoration plans,
10 recognizing there's
going to be flooding, I assume
11 Mr. Hardy knows that,
and he still wants -- he doesn't
12 want to sell his
property, is there a way to reengineer
13 this, not buy the
property and protect the restoration
14 efforts from what is
going on on that property?
15
MR. BARNETT: Let me address those issues in a very
16 brief
presentation. Because I think we get to that exact
17 question. A
fundamental issue, and you all have been
18 extremely supportive
of the acquisition of Southern Golden
19 Gate, the entire
acquisition, this isn't one of 68 project
20 components under the
Comprehensive Everglades Restoration
21 Plan. Its
critical importance to Everglades is that over
22 about 40 percent of
the water that enters Everglades
23 National Park coming
in through this basin, Southern
24 Golden Gate, is now
this area, and it's cross-hatched, its
25 critical importance
is that it's also contiguous with the
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1 Florida Panther
National Wildlife Refuge. Belle Meade
2 incorporates it with
Southern Golden Gate as part of
3 Picayune State Forest,
Collier Seminole State Park is
4 contiguous and the Ten
Thousand Islands National Wildlife
5 Refuge, not to mention
Fakahatchee Strand as well as the
6 Big Cypress. So
this was sort of the hole in the
7 donought. We now
have, of the 19,000 -- Secretary
8 mentioned 19,988
parcels in ownership, four parcels left
9 to go.
10
The restoration plan -- this gets to your question,
11 Governor --
essentially involves removing all levels of
12 service and all flood
controls south of I-75. I-75
13 borders to the
north. We have U.S. 41 to the south,
14 Tamiami Trail.
And it essentially involves the
15 plugging -- and you
saw the initial plugs from the Prairie
16 Canal which we have
completed, the first phase of that.
17 It involves doing a
similar action in all the other
18 remaining three
canals. But also, we had to put pumps to
19 the north. And
the strategic location of those pumps are
20 very important
because they do two things. They meet the
21 ecological objectives
and the ability to store the
22 surfacing groundwater
but they also meet the other public
23 purpose which is
providing flood protection --
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: North of I-75.
25
MR. BARNETT: -- north of I-75. That's the reason we
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1 couldn't put the pump
stations north of -- they were
2 located at this
location. They're not any further north
3 because we have a
phenomenon called pail water.
4 Water doesn't flow --
in storm events, water doesn't flow
5 smoothly through the
pumps, it backs up. And the property
6 that Mr. Hardy has is
represented right here. It is a
7 strategic
location. It is the hole in the donought, the
8 only last remaining
parcel of the 19,800 and some odd
9 parcels.
10
We do have, I will point out, the Miccosukee Tribe
11 which we're
proceeding to the condemnation process and
12 court actions are
ongoing with these three parcels here.
13 And those are the
last four remaining parcels in this
14 project.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Could you explain why --
16 specifically why the
pump has to sit right where you got
17 it next to Hardy's
land?
18
MR. BARNETT: We were balancing two primary -- and
19 the location of all
four pumps across -- all three pumps
20 across the northern
rege (sic). We're balancing two main
21 primary
objectives. Maximizing the ability to store
22 surface and
groundwater and achieve ecological restoration
23 south and provide
flood protection to the north. And the
24 Faka-Union Canal is
the primary drainage system for all of
25 northern Golden
Gate. And the reasons the pumps are
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1 located where they are
is to provide enough distance south
2 of the -- of I-75 that
you would achieve flood protection
3 at the I-75 property
interface. And I'll show you the
4 hydrographs and the
hydrological results of that very
5 briefly.
6
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. His property is the one --
7 before you move that,
put your pen on his property.
8
MR. BARNETT: Right there. And I'm going to zoom in
9 for you right now to
this -- we're zooming in to his
10 property in that
middle pump station, in the spreader
11 canal system, his
property is contiguous with the -- his
12 southern end of his
property is contiguous with the pump
13 station.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. So my understanding is the
15 reason you put the
pump there is to clear the water from
16 75 south.
17
MR. BARNETT: Correct. This area, although the canal
18 remains in place,
this entire area has no flood
19 protection.
20
CFO GALLAGHER: Right. So you put the pump there,
21 it's going to pump
the water further south.
22
MR. BARNETT: Right. But you'll have water pooling
23 in this area behind
because we have to go far enough --
24 this is 75. We
have to go far enough below 75 to have
25 that surge zone, if
you will.
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: But your other pump stations are
2 back behind this
one.
3
MR. BARNETT: They drain smaller drainage districts.
4 This one over here
primarily drains the Ten Thousand
5 Islands National
Wildlife Refuge and they want more water
6 -- I'm sorry, the
Florida Panther National Wildlife
7 Refuge.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: So what happens if you -- there is a
9 dike around his
property and he comes and goes by boat
10 or --
11
MR. BARNETT: We've evaluated that option. And to
12 provide the level of
service of flood protection he's
13 afforded now, would
cost over in excess of 5.8 million.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Why would we want to if he agreed to
15 less
protection? I mean, aren't you suggesting that the
16 trade-off would be if
you don't want to sell the land --
17
CFO GALLAGHER: If you don't want to sell it, we'll
18 put a dike around
there. And if you flood, you flood, not
19 our problem.
20
MR. BARNETT: We have two statutory reasons. One
21 constitutional, one
federal statute. We don't believe --
22 we certainly know
under the Florida Constitution we can't
23 diminish his level of
service without providing adequate
24 compensation.
So what I'm hearing you say is there some
25 way to negotiate a --
he would give up his right to flood
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1 protection for some
form of compensation.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, the compensation is known as
3 land as he wants
it. But, you know, that's the other --
4 that's a topic for
discussion with he and his owner. But,
5 I mean, you can waive
your God-given constitutional rights
6 in return for
something, can't you?
7
MR. BARNETT: Yes, but the second, probably more
8 important, as far as
this specific project is concerned,
9 is the savings clause
under the Water Resources
10 Development Act of
2000. It says we are prohibited from
11 diminishing his level
of service without --
12
CFO GALLAGHER: His agreement.
13
MR. BARNETT: He is within the footprint of the
14 project.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: But if he agrees, he stays there and
16 he agrees to have a
dike put and we do our best effort,
17 then he takes the
chances on what happens if flooding. So
18 he contends, at least
what I've heard, is it's really not
19 going to flood
there. And even though we know it is, as
20 long as he says he's
willing to take that chance.
21
MR. BARNETT: There was -- a couple of extra factors
22 for your
consideration is that the -- we believe he's in
23 harm's way. And
as a professional in environmental
24 restoration, I think
we're setting a dangerous precedent.
25 Secondly, and I think
probably more importantly is that
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1 even though we have
almost a 6 million-dollar cost,
2 capital cost just to
do it, that doesn't include the
3 ongoing O & M cost
for perpetuity.
4
The activity of constructing additional pits, there
5 is probably another,
in total, would be over 80 acres of
6 excavated property at
a 20-foot depth. It's very
7 difficult to engineer
around it. You can engineer around
8 it. It's much
more simple than just building a levy. You
9 have to build a
seepage control facility around it to
10 actually gather the
water. As pits draw the water to the
11 area you have to
collect that water and pump it south.
12
The average ongoing O & M cost for perpetuity of the
13 life of project will
probably exceed over probably
14 100 million -- I
mean, $100,000 a year, probably 150, is
15 one of the estimates
we discussed. So you incur not only
16 that extremely high
capital cost for construction, but you
17 also add an
additional end cost to the project which is
18 very significant.
19
MS. CASTILLE: But, Treasurer, there is also a legal
20 ramification in that
we've been working with 16 other
21 property
owners. The judge has told us that we have to
22 treat each of the
property owners equally in this case or
23 he will reevaluate
the 16 that we have already --
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: Sixteen willing sellers compared to
25 one unwilling
one.
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1
MR. BARNETT: There's also about 3,000 eminent domain
2 cases that were not
--
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Not homestead. I would respect --
4 and the judge can say
what he wants. But seems to me this
5 is a pretty unique
piece of property with a pretty unique
6 owner as it relates to
all of the purchases that we've
7 made. There is
no other purchaser or seller, unwilling
8 seller, of a homestead
property, I don't believe. At
9 least I was told this
is the only one. That's why it's
10 the hole in the
doughnut there, isn't it?
11
MR. BARNETT: It is the only one that will go before
12 the trustees.
There are eminent domain parcels and other
13 CERP projects.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: That are homestead?
15
MR. BARNETT: Yes.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: Where are they?
17
MR. BARNETT: They are in the water preserve area and
18 the eight and a half
square mile area.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: That don't come in front of us.
20
MR. BARNETT: They do not come in front of this body.
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: Come in front of water management
22 districts?
23
MR. BARNETT: Yes. And they have the eminent domain
24 authority
legislatively and statutorily.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: So you're saying that the commercial
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1 catfish farm, whatever
it is, you can't envision
2 organizing a newly
engineered process around it that
3 wouldn't cost -- you
think it would cost 150,000 bucks a
4 year?
5
MR. BARNETT: That's probably a very conservative
6 estimate on O & M
cost in addition to the upfront capital
7 cost for construction,
additional construction costs.
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
9
MR. BARNETT: And, Governor, if I might add, you hit
10 upon a very important
note that this is only one of these
11 that have come in
front of the trustees. We do have
12 200,000 additional
acres we need for certain. Although it
13 is a different body
that is making those eminent domain
14 decisions, I think
it's unrealistic for us to expect where
15 we have a 20,000-acre
reservoir that we're going to find
16 20,000 acres of
willing seller/owners in every instance.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: I agree with that.
18
MR. BARNETT: We're going to get crossways with other
19 homesteads
unfortunately as we go forward.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm just breaking out in a rash just
21 thinking about
this.
22
MR. BARNETT: Me too, sir.
23
MS. CASTILLE: It's a very difficult decision. If I
24 might, Governor, we
have a couple of other presentations,
25 short. Bob
Scanlon with a brief history of the eminent
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1 domain
litigation. And then we have speakers on
2 Mr. Hardy's
behalf. And then we have some
3 environmentalists at
the end who would like to speak on
4 this. And then
I'll wrap up with a closing argument.
5
MR. SCANLON: Governor and cabinet, I've been asked
6 to answer two or three
questions from a legal standpoint.
7 Number one, where are
we --
8
CFO GALLAGHER: You want to give your name so the
9 court reporter will
get it down.
10
MR. SCANLON: I'm Bob Scanlon. I've been
11 representing the DEP
in this acquisition through my
12 office.
13
MS. CASTILLE: Deputy Attorney General?
14
MR. SCANLON: I'm not a deputy attorney general, no.
15 I'm one of the grunts
that do the work. We've
16 condemned -- we filed
suit on 1861 parcels of land. We
17 own 1858
parcels. That's over 300 lawsuits we're filing.
18 The three parcels we
don't have that are in suit are the
19 Miccosukee parcels
which we just got a ruling from the
20 judge that he's going
to let the case go forward. There
21 is a lot to be
determined yet, but that's where we are.
22
We had four appeals. We had four people appeal from
23 the fact that the
taking occurred. One of those appeals
24 was settled. We
one the other three appeals in the Second
25 District Court of
Appeal. We have acquired fee simple
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1 title in all of those
parcels. There were people that
2 asked the judge not to
give us fee simple title. But our
3 position all the way
through, through the testimony we
4 presented at every
order of taking was we were required to
5 have fee simple title
for public safety to get the septic
6 tanks out of the
ground, to be able to degrade the roads
7 and canals and protect
public safety and to accomplish the
8 project. This
obviously is the last parcel we'd be filing
9 suit on to
acquire.
10
The question I was asked: Is there a legal impact if
11 we treat Jessie Hardy
differently. As I've said, we've
12 presented orders of
taking hearings over 300 times and
13 have always taken the
position we had to have fee simple.
14 People have come in
and said, Judge, they don't need to do
15 that. They
don't need fee simple. The judges in Collier
16 County have given us
fee simple, all 1861 pieces of land.
17 And those were not
all willing sellers, by the way. Even
18 though they weren't
homesteads. There were people that
19 opposed the
taking.
20
The trial court has been very specific that he's only
21 allowing this taking
for this environmental project. He's
22 not allowing it for
us to go out there and create a
23 55,000-acre
park. That if something happens and this
24 project does not go
forward, that he would be willing to
25 readdress those
orders he's already entered.
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Has anybody suggested we not go
2 forward with the
contract? Judge didn't have to worry
3 about that.
4
MR. SCANLON: The question about can we flood his
5 property. That
obviously creates tort issues, whether we
6 can be sued for tort,
whether we can be sued for inverse
7 condemnation which we
probably could. If we took only a
8 flowage easement and
we actually flooded his land where he
9 could not use it at
all, that actually probably would be
10 considered a fee
simple taking and not just a flowage
11 easement and that
could lead to litigation. But, I mean,
12 that would have to be
decided by the courts.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Let me ask you if he waived his
14 rights in that
regard, if he waived his rights in a
15 binding agreement,
then is there some superseding legal
16 doctrine that would
allow him to undo the agreement he had
17 with the State to
then sue?
18
MR. SCANLON: I think what -- I don't know the answer
19 to that to be honest
with you. I can't answer that.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't know if it's ever been done.
21
MR. SCANLON: What would probably happen is we would
22 take some kind of
flowage easement which would allow him
23 to stay on the
property and allow us to keep using it.
24 I'm handling a suit
right now where the Water Management
25 District acquired a
flowage easement. There are issues
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1 whether we flooded
more than the flowage easement and
2 whatever. And
trial court over the effect of whether the
3 easement was big
enough in another area of the state.
4
What's the process we will go through. If this is
5 approved today, we'll
get the title work updated. We'll
6 file suit. We'll
try to set a hearing out about 90 days
7 because there are some
liens on the property, I believe.
8 So there are other
parties that would be in this lawsuit.
9 We would have a
hearing before the judge on the taking.
10 His lawyer, Bill
Moore, at one time was my mentor, so I've
11 known him for about
30 years and litigated against him for
12 about 20, I guess, he
will present his engineering
13 testimony that we
don't need this land, that it can be
14 done without
it. We'll present our testimony that we need
15 it. And the
court has to make a decision, this is a
16 legitimate public
purpose. Do we need this property for
17 the public
purpose? Do we need fee simple or can an
18 easement do?
And then, do we have a good faith appraisal.
19
Which our appraisal testimony will probably be more
20 in the range of $1
million, not the dollars we're taking
21 about here.
Then the judge would decide when -- if he
22 decides we can have
the property, the last issue he will
23 decide is when can we
get that property. And that will be
24 issues in terms of
timing in order to get him off the
25 property in order to
do the project and for permitting and
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1 all that kind of
thing. They will have a right to
2 immediate appeal if
the judge grants the order of a
3 taking. They
don't have to wait until the trial is over
4 on compensation.
And then the final issue will be how
5 much compensation and
ultimately a jury of 12 people would
6 decide that if we
can't settle it.
7
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Any questions?
8
MR. SCANLON: Thank you.
9
MS. CASTILLE: At this time we have -- I'd like to
10 call up speakers on
behalf of Mr. Jesse Hardy.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: If all you-all are coming to speak,
12 if you'd do us a
favor, if it's already been said, you
13 don't need to repeat
it. And if you could just be brief,
14 we'd appreciate
it. But we appreciate you coming up.
15
Who is this young man?
16
MS. HILTON: Good morning, Governor Bush. This is my
17 son Tommy. This
is Tommy Hilton.
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Hey, Tommy.
19
MS. HILTON: And we're a little nervous.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't be nervous.
21
MS. HILTON: My name is Tara Hilton. We came up
22 today from
Naples. My family and I, we have ridden
23 horses, fished, we've
raised puppies out there. We've
24 grown vegetable
gardens. And me and Tommy have lived with
25 Jesse since '95 when
my mother passed away so -- but Jesse
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1 has been a part of our
family my whole life. He's --
2 Jesse is Tommy's
father and my best friend and we have a
3 dream being fish
farmers. We want to do this. We're not
4 going to do it to sell
mass quantities of fish. We want
5 to do it so the people
of Collier County can bring their
6 sons, their little
girls, come out and fish, play in the
7 dirt, and have a place
for kids to be kids because all
8 these places are
disappearing. And I believe if they take
9 our land they are
going to put a gate up right there and
10 no one will be out
there to use this property any longer.
11
And Tommy has been sick his whole life. And this is
12 where he's grown up
and this is our home. And we're not
13 trying to stop any
projects. And if you would just let us
14 stay and it floods,
we'll swim out and give you the land.
15 We just don't want to
leave. We don't allow anyone to
16 hunt on our property,
we never have. We have deer. We
17 can sit in our
bedroom watching TV and we have deer that
18 come up right to our
windows. Our dogs don't run 'em,
19 they just walk
around.
20
We had a pig one time, a piney wood rooter who came
21 out of the woods with
the tusks and he became so friendly
22 that he started
living under our house. And I mean, it's
23 a good place to raise
kids and, you know, kids any more
24 they sit on the couch
with Nintendo games but Tommy, he's
25 outside being a
little boy. We're not hermits. We live
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1 20 minutes away from
the nearest store. I don't see
2 how -- we talked to
the surveyors when they were out there
3 right at our property
surveying and they said it would
4 take 12 feet of water
to flood our land. I don't know,
5 only God can give us
water and I don't know where these
6 people think the water
is going to come from. There is no
7 water there now and
there hasn't been a rainy season that
8 I've seen that's even
been any water on our roads in eight
9 years.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think when the canals go, it kind
11 of may change the
whole situation. I think that's the
12 thought.
13
MS. HILTON: Well, if they put the pump down below
14 our property, it will
be pulling the water away from us.
15 Doesn't that make
sense to you?
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: It did until Ernie described the fact
17 there may be back
flowage. I don't know. But --
18
MS. HILTON: Well, have you ever thought that maybe
19 these people just
want to tell you what they want to say
20 to you because maybe
it's not true?
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: Once in a while I think that
22 (laughter) but not
always. Not always. That's why we ask
23 questions.
24
MS. HILTON: Right.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: They are sincere people and they are
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1 doing something that's
important. And, you know, there
2 may be disagreements
about the impacts of some of these
3 issues but I certainly
wouldn't -- I think the motives are
4 pure on both sides
here.
5
Yes, Treasurer.
6
CFO GALLAGHER: I guess the question is, I see you
7 have an engineering
report that said it's not going to
8 flood in your
area. I mean, how willing are you-all to
9 basically say you
don't sue us if it floods?
10
MS. HILTON: That's no problem. We'll -- like I
11 said, if we flood
where we can't get out, we'll swim out
12 and give it to
you.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, we'd be paying you for it.
14 We're not trying to
take it from you for nothing -- not
15 pay you. But
that may be a consideration that you talk to
16 the Department
about.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: You may want to let the lawyer
18 representing Mr.
Hardy have an opinion about that too.
19 We'll find out.
20
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, that's true. It's his
21 property. But
thank you.
22
MS. HILTON: Well, we just wanted to come so you
23 could see that we're
human beings and we live there and it
24 is our home.
Thank you, Governor Bush.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. You did fine, by the way.
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1 You shouldn't have
been nervous.
2
MS. HILTON: I'm shaking like a leaf. Thank you.
3 Can my son Tommy say
something to you, please?
4
GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. Turn the microphone.
5
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He would just like to shake
6 your hand.
7
(Pause.)
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
9
MR. DAVIS: I'm Norman Davis. I've come all the way
10 from Kentucky to help
Jesse.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you the guy that did the ballad?
12
MR. DAVIS: I'm sorry?
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: The song?
14
MR. DAVIS: No.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, okay. Just checking.
16
MR. DAVIS: The wife and I, we've been to Florida a
17 number of
times. I would like to retire here if I know
18 I'm going to get to
stay where I want to move. That's
19 been a concern of
ours. I had several things I wanted to
20 talk about, but most
of them have been covered. I do
21 appreciate seeing the
map where the pumps will be on the
22 south of Mr. Hardy's
property. That's one thing I came to
23 talk about. I
feel we could also redraw the engineering
24 plan. Maybe
another pump or two to help with some of the
25 pooling in emergency
situations, I don't know. This is
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1 for the engineers.
2
But I do feel like what we have a major problem in is
3 we have different
engineering reports. We have the
4 State's and then we
have Mr. Thompson's. Mr. Thompson's
5 report does state that
he will not be flooded. It does
6 state that the water
levels will even drop. Do you
7 gentlemen have Mr.
Thompson's plan?
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
9
MR. DAVIS: Good deal. You'll notice down on Page 1,
10 effects on Mr.
Hardy. Mr. Hardy's -- at the bottom,
11 Mr. Hardy's property
is on the east side and it talks
12 about it. I
have a three-page report. I hope we have the
13 same one.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir.
15
MR. DAVIS: It talks about the canal. His property
16 line is at 62nd and
the south property line is 66th. And
17 they showed -- we
showed the graphic earlier where the
18 pump will be below
this right at the canal. Now, what
19 Mr. Thompson is
saying here is that based on the recent
20 evidence or latter
elevation information obtained from
21 Collier County, not
anyone on the ground but from the
22 county and they
should know, this indicates that during
23 the wet season the
canal adjacent to Mr. Hardy's property
24 will be maintained,
that's the key, "maintained",
25 approximately 4 foot
below existing ground surface.
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1
Under existing conditions during the wet season. The
2 canal typically at or
near the top of the bank. I've been
3 to this canal.
I've been to Mr. Hardy's several times.
4 It's actually a little
below.
5
Thus -- and then he goes on further to state, Thus it
6 appears that the
project intended to rehydrate the
7 Southern Golden Gate
will be -- in fact, have the
8 potential to lower the
wet season water table.
9
I'm assuming we'll have more pump operation. I'm
10 assuming the flow of
the water. I'm not an engineer.
11 During the dry
season, the elevations in the canal are
12 proposed to be
controlled at 7.2. Now we have reports
13 stating he's anywhere
from nine or 10 to 12 to 13 feet in
14 elevation.
Seven foot is not going to do it.
15
Now we talk about tearing the roads out. I'd like to
16 touch on that a
minute. As was on the map, the pump will
17 be down by the canal
where there is an existing road. Now
18 why on God's green
earth would we want to take and tear
19 the roads out when we
are, as in the conclusions of
20 Mr. Thompson, we're
going to need a road for a canal for
21 maintenance.
We're going to need it. That's also the
22 same road Mr. Hardy
uses. As a matter of fact, where you
23 cut off at the
present time, you cut off at the present
24 time, Mr. Hardy can,
or the State, or a joint venture,
25 they can cut a path
approximately 300 yards over to the
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1 bridge. There
will be no flooding, no flooding of the
2 access.
3
Now, I feel like you're really missing out on a
4 golden
opportunity. I don't know whether -- I don't know
5 which report is right,
which engineering report. Collier
6 County should
know. I would hope the State would know.
7 But the people on the
ground should know. We have
8 neighbors --
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Thompson works for the Collier
10 County
government?
11
MR. DAVIS: Pardon?
12
GOVERNOR BUSH: The engineer, when you say "Collier
13 County should know",
what do you mean?
14
MR. DAVIS: His information came from Collier County.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
16
MS. CASTILLE: He did not visit the property.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: He didn't visit the property?
18
MR. DAVIS: No, he did not visit the property but
19 they should --
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't tell me he's from Kentucky.
21
MR. DAVIS: I hope not. Anyway, Collier County
22 government should
have this information. They should have
23 these elevations, I
mean, we all know that. But I feel
24 like we're missing
out on something. I come to Naples
25 every winter. I
like your warm weather. Mine up there,
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1 it gets pretty
cold. I don't like our white stuff. I do
2 like your white stuff
on the beach. But Naples has a
3 severe lack of real
recreation outside of the air boat
4 rides, going to ball
game, the things in town.
5
Jesse and I, we've talked. He'd like to provide the
6 aquaculture farm as
well as he would like to provide an
7 area where the people
can go to to enjoy what you're
8 doing. Jesse is
in favor of your project, totally in
9 favor. I don't
think anybody will argue with that. But I
10 think the State, the
County, and Jesse can all work
11 together to provide
the access road to the pumps. I feel
12 like you can, well,
work on a recreational facility for
13 the people in this
area even if it did take some
14 redesigning and
everyone could work together.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
16
MR. DAVIS: Appreciate it.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for being here.
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
MS. KEMP: Good morning, Governor and members of the
20 cabinet. My
name is Cindy Kemp. I am the president of
21 the property rights
action committee in Naples, Florida.
22 Today, I drove over
six-and-a-half hours from Naples on my
23 24th wedding
anniversary.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: Congratulations.
25
MS. KEMP: Thank you. And even though it's a
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1 pleasure and an honor
to meet with you, I would have
2 preferred to have
taken some romantic vacation with my
3 husband. But the
property rights community is so
4 concerned about what
is happening to Jesse Hardy and
5 everyone's property
rights in Naples that my plans
6 changed.
7
I'm a little disturbed. Jesse thought he was going
8 to be able to
participate via telephone. And last night,
9 he found out that was
not permissible. But he was under
10 that impression from
the meeting on April 7th that he
11 would still be able
to do that. So I'm a little concerned
12 about that.
13
I have lived in Naples for 14 years. I live in the
14 rural area of
Northern Golden Gate Estates, actually on De
15 Soto Boulevard
directly opposite of Jesse Hardy, just
16 across Alligator
Alley. I have been following the
17 Everglades
restoration plans from the beginning. I have
18 seen so many plans
and models presented. This is why the
19 property rights
action committee was formed, to be a
20 watchdog for property
rights. This is why we were the
21 host for the Sawgrass
Rebellion, an event where a caravan
22 of farmers and
property rights advocates trecked across
23 the country from
California to Naples to stage the largest
24 gathering, to educate
and fight back against the
25 atrocities that are
taking place in the name of
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1
environmentalism. If 1500 farmers in the Klamath basin
2 could have their lives
destroyed because of an endangered
3 sucker fish which
later the science was proven false after
4 the fact, I have to
wonder how right on is the science for
5 the Everglades
restoration when there already have been
6 close to 20 different
models presented and I frequently
7 read of scientists
that actually make the case that some
8 of the plans could
actually destroy the Everglades.
9
Property rights are a precious gem to be guarded. I
10 can tell that's what
you believe. They are the core of
11 our freedoms.
The Declaration of Independence states,
12 Life, liberty, and
the pursuit of happiness. I cannot
13 understand ever
giving up any of our rights that our
14 founders passionately
designed for our freedoms. Property
15 rights must be
respected.
16
As we've discussed, the engineering reports shows
17 that the Everglades
restoration can continue and allow
18 Jesse to stay
put. Please, let's work this out so
19 everyone is a
winner. I propose designing the project to
20 take it further south
around Jesse. Let's make this
21 project appealing to
the environmentalist, to Jesse, to
22 the Naples community
and to the State of Florida. Let's
23 design a state of an
art nature center with active
24 participation by
tourists, include a planetarium, a
25 learning center,
guided tours, et cetera and link it with
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1 the University of
Florida. Have both excursions down to
2 the port of the
islands. Open an area for the people of
3 Naples to play
in. With over 75 percent of Collier County
4 in preservation, it's
hard to find a place for such
5 activities. We
want public access to our lands. Please
6 don't fence us
out. It could be named the Jeb Bush
7 Environmental Learning
Center.
8
(Laughter.)
9
We could have Indian culture, Florida history and
10 Florida
landscape. And we could have a living museum.
11 Jesse's aquafarming
could be a valuable asset to the State
12 and support his
effort of appreciation for nature. The
13 property is
homesteaded. Our property rights are
14 precious. I
wish that everyone truly understood the
15 importance of
property rights. It's a travesty to see our
16 rights continually
chipped away. These are rights
17 enumerated in the
Bill of Rights. It provokes me to see
18 200 years of freedom
being reversed. It's a sad thought
19 to think that our
soldiers who are putting their lives on
20 the line in Iraq
fighting for freedom will return to the
21 greatest nation that
enjoys so many blessings and will
22 have to live with a
possibility that their home could be
23 taken from
them. Because that's exactly what's happening
24 to Jesse.
25
Please do not eminent-domain Jesse Hardy. The
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1 property rights
community is watching. We stand for life,
2 liberty, and
happiness. And all that we ask is that our
3 Constitution and our
rights be respected. Think of the
4 Golden Rule and we'll
remember in November. Thank you.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. If you'd be
6 brief, we'd appreciate
it.
7
MR. GERSTEL: Good morning, Governor Bush and cabinet
8 members. It's my
honor to meet you especially, Governor
9 Bush. My name is
Mark Gerstel. I'm from Naples, Florida.
10 And that beautiful
young lady is my wife. And this is a
11 first for me for two
reasons. One, to speak in front of
12 the Governor and to
meet him and second to spend my
13 wedding anniversary
at a cabinet meeting.
14
Why am I here? To discuss the waiver to
15 eminent-domain
homestead property owner Jesse Hardy of
16 Collier County.
To me, this is a disgrace. Jesse Hardy
17 is a disabled
veteran, a Navy Seal. Is this the way we
18 treat our
heroes? Because he is my hero. Last week,
19 while discussing the
compensation offered, DEP, for
20 Mr. Hardy's land with
my son -- and by the way, I'm very
21 proud, our son has
just been accepted to Vanderbilt
22 University to start
law school in September. Our son
23 said, The average
person would take that $4 million for
24 his land and
run. That's the American way. But Jesse
25 said, It's not the
money. Give the money to some needy
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1 children. You
know, put it towards education. Do
2 something else with
it. I don't want the money. He said,
3 It's our freedoms that
are being challenged. It's his
4 land. It's his
property. It's his home.
5
Mr. Jesse Hardy is a man of character, which it seems
6 like Governor Bush
understands that. There's not many of
7 us, and I'm sure you
would agree with me, who would turn
8 down $4 million.
There's not many people like Jesse
9 Hardy. Last
week, Florida House of Representatives Greg
10 Evers and Jerry
Parrish from DEP traveled to Jesse's home
11 and they had the
pleasure of spending three hours with him
12 and his son
Tommy.
13
Representative Evers said in the Naples Daily News,
14 He is not really
comfortable with the State's pursuit of
15 Jesse Hardy.
These two men have seen Jesse in his
16 habitat. He's
been there for 27 years. Take him out of
17 it and he'll
die. Is that what we want? And as you
18 discussed earlier,
Governor, make some changes with the
19 project. Listen
to some of the ideas me and my wife came
20 up with, you know,
the Jeb Bush Foundation.
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think we're going to discount that
22 one.
23
(Laughter.)
24
MR. GERSTEL: In closing, if you vote to obtain the
25 waiver and proceed
with eminent domain on Jesse Hardy's
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1 homesteaded property,
it will not look good. Picture
2 this. It will go
to trial with a jury in his own home
3 county, Collier
County. Jesse will be in front of his own
4 peers. Jesse
will get to tell his story. The jury, his
5 own peers, will get to
visit, learn to love Jesse as
6 anyone who meets Jesse
will, it will happen to them.
7 They'll get to meet
his little son and fall in love with
8 little Tommy. It
will not be good for anyone. And mark
9 my words, if we decide
as a state to obtain a waiver on
10 the eminent domain
policy on a homesteaded property owned
11 by Jesse Hardy, it
will not be good, especially for our
12 state.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Happy anniversary.
14
MR. GERSTEL: Thanks a lot, Governor.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: You ought to maybe go to Wakulla
16 Springs when you're
heading back or see some of the sights
17 up here. It's
quite beautiful.
18
MR. GERSTEL: Thank you very much.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: And by the way, we purchased it, you
20 know, for your
use. We have the best State park system
21 and we have -- there
is a legitimate role to play for
22 government to
preserve some of these beautiful pieces of
23 property. And
Collier County has some and so does -- take
24 some time to visit up
here. It may not be as romantic as
25 some fancy places
outside the state, but you'll love it.
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1
MR. GERSTEL: Actually, we were planning to go to
2 Amelia Island, the
Ritz Carlton.
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. That's good enough.
4
MR. GERSTEL: One last thing. By the way, you asked
5 who wrote the ballad
of Jesse Hardy, his Navy buddy, Larry
6 Bailey, wrote the
ballad. And our friend from Naples,
7 Bill Lhota sang or put
the lyrics to the song.
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Thank you very much.
9
Good morning.
10
DR. McCOMBS: Good morning. Thank you, Governor.
11 I'm Dr. John
McCombs. I'm here at the bequest of Jesse
12 Hardy to plead his
case. And he is in the process of
13 getting his land
patent and his deed from the Internal
14 Improvement
Fund. He's written to the BLM and to DEP Land
15 Records Division and
talked to them on the phone and tried
16 to recover those
records in a certified fashion. And so
17 far, he's been
getting the runaround. So he does not have
18 those documents yet
but he is aware of them and he's
19 trying to put them up
on the record as soon as possible.
20
Under those documents, he has a preemption right
21 under the act of
Congress called the Swamp and Overflowed
22 Lands Act. And
that's pursuant to the assent in Florida
23 Statute 6.01.
And, also, I need to mention that we need
24 to invoke the Florida
Constitution since it was omitted
25 from Florida Statute
2.01.
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1
What's happened here is that the State, by taking
2 this property, would
be impairing the obligation of
3 contract. That
would be pursuant to U.S. Constitution and
4 Florida Constitution
at Article I, Section 10. And
5 pursuant to a case law
called Kittle versus Trustees of
6 the Internal
Improvement Fund, wherein that case it said,
7 Can a creature of the
State, which the DEP is, can a
8 creature of the state
do that which the State is
9 prohibited from
doing. The State has no standing with
10 respect to the
supreme law of the land and Article VI,
11 Clause 2 of the
Constitution of the United States of
12 America with respect
to the Treaty of Amenity, settlement,
13 and limits --
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Doctor, are you saying that the State
15 does not have the
power to use eminent domain for projects
16 of -- where there is
a public purpose?
17
DR. McCOMBS: If the public purpose is taking private
18 property which is
homesteaded --
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: No, the public's purpose could be
20 I-75. Someone's
homestead was taken just north of this
21 property to build
--
22
DR. McCOMBS: That would be an absolute necessity.
23 This is not.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's where the argument might be.
25
DR. McCOMBS: Yeah, I understand.
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't think it's as ironclad as
2 what you're saying,
that this restoration project isn't --
3
DR. McCOMBS: Well, the first place where eminent
4 domain shows up is in
the Constitution of 1885. The
5 previous constitutions
to that, it's not there. These
6 contracts were let
before 1885 so that Mr. Hardy stands in
7 the shoes of the
owner, of the first owner of the
8 property. And so
because of that --
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, under that --
10
DR. McCOMBS: -- eminent domain goes out the window.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: That will be an interesting legal
12 debate that probably
isn't relevant for here. Are you --
13 I'm not a lawyer, so
I yield to the --
14
DR. McCOMBS: No, I'm not an attorney.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- legal beagles on that.
16
DR. McCOMBS: If you look at several other cases
17 called -- one is
called Suma Corporation versus State of
18 California. The
State of California was prohibited from
19 taking land that was
pursuant to the Treaty of Guadelupe
20 Hidalgo. If you
fly out to LAX and look toward the west,
21 you'll see vacant
land. That's Suma Corp property right
22 there.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: But we've already -- I mean, just
24 to -- I'm sorry to
interject again. But we've already
25 purchased property in
this area using eminent domain and
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1 the courts have upheld
that have every time. So I think
2 that's been clearly
established.
3
DR. McCOMBS: Well, that's here in the state. And I
4 don't know if anybody
has made the argument pursuant to
5 Suma Corp. If
they haven't, then maybe that's a flaw in
6 their arguments and
maybe that could be overcome.
7
The other questions I'd like to put forward here is:
8 Is Mr. Hardy
considered an alien in Florida?
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Excuse me?
10
DR. McCOMBS: An alien. Is Mr. Hardy considered to
11 be an alien in
Florida? Or another question I'd like to
12 have answered:
Is Mr. Hardy considered a citizen of
13 another state?
Also, does Mr. Hardy have the rights,
14 according to Article
I, Section 2 of the Florida
15 Constitution?
And, also, I'd like to make a continuing
16 objection to the
taking of this property as violative of
17 his indefeasible
rights as granted by God and pursuant to
18 Chisolm versus
Georgia 2 U.S. 419.
19
In that case, Chief Justice John J., Justice Wilson
20 and Justice Cushing
said the same thing, said, Your rights
21 come from God, not
from the State. God created man. Man
22 created the state for
his own useful purposes and
23 benefits. And
because of that, under Boyd versus U.S., it
24 refers to Lord
Camden. Lord Camdon talks 600 years ago
25 that ma n entered
into society to protect his rights and
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1 his property.
And so I think that the eminent domain use
2 in this case is an
abomination, an atrocity. And I wish
3 that you would not
allow this to happen.
4
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir. Thanks for coming
5 up.
6
Yes, sir. Briefly.
7
MR. JACOBSON: Governor and members of the
8 commission, my name is
John Michael Jacobson. I'm
9 director of the
Everglades Institute. And, Governor, I'll
10 be very brief.
I came up because there were statements
11 that I had run across
that were of such overt unreality
12 that I had to drive
from the Everglades all the way up
13 here to try to
address at least a few of them. But given
14 that I've been up all
night, it's going to be a very brief
15 one.
16
To start with, this case of Jesse Hardy is, in
17 effect, a microcosm
of both economic and constitutional
18 negative impacts
which resulted from faulty premises in
19 the Everglades
Project and these can easily be reversed by
20 correction of these
faulty premises. It would appear
21 there is no sound
biological or hydrological reason for
22 the taking of this
land. And I might add, it's been
23 egregiously
underevaluated by the Agency. To start with
24 the basic faulty
premises.
25
One of the reasons for taking this land was it was
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1 considered to be land
usable by the Florida panther, i.e.,
2 this is preservation
of an endangered species. This
3 raises some very major
problems which are sure to come up
4 and hopefully since
this is a program from quite awhile
5 ago the present
administration might be able to avoid
6 this. The basic
argument is that this is a valid
7 subspecies. By
1990, Dr. Relke's (phonetic) paper
8 indicated that this
cat had South American genes in it.
9 That is it was a
hybrid and did not qualify under the
10 Endangered Species
Act.
11
However, in 2000, Dr. Colver's (phonetic) paper, the
12 genomic ancestry of
the American puma, Felix Concolor,
13 defined clearly and
unambiguously the DNA evidence showing
14 the panther in North
America, that is from the Yukon all
15 the way to the
southern border of Mexico and from the
16 Atlantic to the
Pacific were all, quote, genetically
17 homogeneous, that is,
one animal. And I might point out
18 that she specifically
addressed the issue of the 15 --
19 quote, the 15
previously accepted subspecies were shown to
20 be one cat.
21
In short, the cat that is shot in the Bush Ranch,
22 state of Texas, shot
without season or limit, they're
23 varmints out there,
those cats were brought down here and
24 are now considered to
be, by some bureaucratic argument,
25 to be
endangered. This I think may be very difficult to
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1 sustain. If it
is not a legitimate subspecies and is not
2 legitimately under the
Endangered Species Act, then there
3 is a question of
hundreds of millions of dollars which has
4 been misappropriated
by prior agency actions under prior
5 administrations.
6
And there is also the question of whether these
7 things are compatible
with humans. But that's a very
8 different issue.
I did have to -- if I could take just
9 one moment.
There were a few things that were mentioned
10 today, and my problem
is that I have come to this
11 recently. The
reason I mentioned this regarding
12 Mr. Hardy, ma'am, was
that specifically one reason for
13 taking this was the
panther. So this is on issue. I
14 could not hear from
the background because I've got one
15 ear out due to an ear
infection.
16
But I believe someone -- Ms. Castille, and she
17 mentioned there was a
real problem in that a lot of people
18 had had land taken
and there were questions about the
19 issue of -- I can't
read my own writing. Yes, whether
20 this was done
properly, the issues which were raised by
21 the other two
gentlemen. And the argument was advanced
22 by, I believe, two of
the Agency people here that since we
23 had dealt with all of
these other people, that we had to
24 deal with Mr. Hardy
the same way. I would suggest it
25 might lead to a major
problem in that if this was
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1 improperly done in the
past, I don't believe past
2 injustice justifies a
present one.
3
And speaking of one other little minor item, two of
4 them, there was an
objection to his, quote, mines, being
5 reservoirs. As I
remember, the CERP project requires
6 substantial digging of
reservoirs to wisely provide for
7 worst-case drought
water surfaces. This man is providing
8 these at no cost and
he's being taken to task by the
9 agencies. This I
would find to be somewhat questionable.
10
Finally, the issue of removing septic tanks under
11 Florida regulations,
septic tanks can be placed anywhere
12 as long as they are
done X number of feet above water
13 level. This is
a matter of a small amount of fill. In
14 any case, I'll
provide the bound comments in your office
15 later today.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: I appreciate it.
17
MR. JACOBSON: And thank you very much for the
18 opportunity to again
address you. It's been six or eight
19 years as I
remember.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. I hope your ear infection
21 get better.
22
MS. CASTILLE: Mr. Walter Pine.
23
MR. PINE: My name is Walter Pine. I'm with the
24 Center for Civil
Rights Advocacy out of Brevard County.
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: Out of where?
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1
MR. PINE: Brevard County. I want to bring to your
2 attention that there
is a general opposition amongst
3 property owners to
eminent domain seizures, especially
4 when it can be
interpreted that it may some day impact
5 them. Many of
the phrases and terms that are used for
6 these eminent domain
seizures are used to justify wildlife
7 corridors and other
areas that are presently being
8 preserved. It's
very difficult for the average citizen to
9 differentiate between
the justification that's being used
10 here and to build
this preserve and the justification
11 that's used in their
own county. They often see this as a
12 threat to their own
properties. And I see no difference
13 in the
language. So the question is, Is there a real
14 threat?
15
The culture that exists at the DEP has come under
16 question recently and
I think today is a good example.
17 When DEP introduced
the groups they're involved with,
18 majority of them were
environmental. Preserving the
19 environment was their
primary priority. There were no
20 property rights
groups, constitutional rights groups, no
21 State sovereignty
groups, no groups that placed a priority
22 on the preserving of
our constitutional rights. We all
23 agree that saving the
environment is an important thing.
24 But prior to saving
the environment, we should save our
25 constitutional
rights. We do not need to lose ownership
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1 to save the
environment.
2
Mr. Hardy has chosen to stay on this land. Whether
3 it floods or not, I
don't think is an issue. People have
4 lived in Louisiana in
flooded lands for many generations
5 so it's possible to
live in the land. The question is is
6 whether or not he will
-- seems to be whether or not he
7 will indemnify the
State for that action the State takes
8 to reestablish the
natural patterns and life within the
9 Everglades. If
he's willing to live with that, he should
10 be able to maintain
his property. There is no reason to
11 remove this.
This is a request for a waiver of a public
12 policy. In
order to waive the public policy that the
13 people desired, that
waiver must overcome the rights of
14 Mr. Hardy.
Nothing here has done that. He is -- as has
15 been mentioned, he is
willing to live with the
16 circumstances as they
impact him.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we'll find out. We haven't
18 really heard from Mr.
Hardy's representative quite yet.
19 But that's a -- we
hope to hear that.
20
MR. PINE: If I may -- all right. Granted, that's
21 yet to be heard from
him personally. We have heard about
22 contiguous properties
and the panther being on contiguous
23 property and this
property being important to us. There
24 is questions
there. The issue was brought up of
25 nonindigenous species
being on Mr. Hardy's property.
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1 Well, in most the
State of Florida, if you know much about
2 the wildlife of
Florida, you can walk on any piece of
3 property and find a
nonindigenous lizard, frog, plant or
4 other form of
wildlife; it's not uncommon. We have a
5 problem with
that. Mr. Hardy should not be overly
6 impacted or
specifically targeted by that criteria.
7 Because there are
nonindigenous species throughout
8 Florida. We
don't have bounties on them, we don't collect
9 them, we don't try to
get rid of them in a well planned
10 organized
manner. Why should Mr. Hardy lose his property
11 because we don't have
a policy?
12
GOVERNOR BUSH: We do and we spend millions to clean
13 up lands
regularly. Recently in Miami there was a huge
14 fire where an eagle's
nest was burned and it was in
15 mellelukas that
created an explosive area. We're spending
16 millions of dollars
to clean up mellelukas. So there is a
17 policy. Someone
argued that we don't spend enough and do
18 it quick enough and
we have a definite policy and we have
19 funding sources to do
it.
20
MR. PINE: That's exactly where I was going,
21 Governor. The
issue is is how much money we spend on
22 recovery of
nonindigenous species and on the science that
23 founds these
decisions. We spend millions of dollars
24 taking land. We
spend millions of dollars turning land
25 into state
land. But we spend only a few dollars on the
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1 science and the
research that goes into it.
2
It's very difficult and I think very unwise for us to
3 base our decisions on
science that we pay a few pennies
4 for decisions, that we
spend millions of dollars on. It
5 should be appropriate
that we spend a proportionate amount
6 on the management
information that we use to make our
7 decisions whether it
be science, whether it be studies,
8 surveys or whatever,
we're not doing that. Mr. Hardy
9 should not be subject
to unusual circumstances because we
10 haven't done
that.
11
At this point, I see no reason that you should waive
12 the current
policy. There is nothing that overcomes his
13 rights and I would
ask that you don't waive it at this
14 point in time.
Thank you.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: I appreciate it. Thank you.
16
MS. CASTILLE: Mr. Moore is Mr. Hardy's attorney.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Moore, welcome.
18
MR. MOORE: Thank you, Governor. My name is Bill
19 Moore with the firm
of Brigham, Moore. We represent
20 Mr. Hardy in this
matter. Obviously, we got a lot of
21 other help
here. But I would like to make it clear that
22 our focus, at least
as long as I'm the lawyer on the case,
23 is not to object to
the policy of environmental
24 restoration. We
do not and Mr. Hardy does not object to
25 that goal.
That's -- that is not the issue nor do I wish
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1 to relitigate all
that. What he wants, of course, is to
2 keep his
property. What he does not want at all is a dime
3 from the State.
This is not a matter driven by money at
4 all.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you an eminent domain lawyer?
6
MR. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor (laughter).
7 You can tell
that. Yes, I am. In fact, I heard the
8 four-and-a-half
million dollar offer was made by a couple
9 of folks that went
down to speak with him. That's well
10 over the
appraisal. That's probably more than it's worth.
11 What doesn't make
sense to me is that every time we deal
12 with the DEP and
we're told to go back and negotiate they
13 keep coming back and
saying, Well, how much more money do
14 you want?
They're not getting the point. It's not about
15 money. What I
ask you to do, please, is look at the
16 science that -- there
are conclusions that are given in
17 these prepared
statements for you.
18
The conclusions are not backed up. For example,
19 please don't think
that the canals are being filled around
20 him, they're
not. In fact, the Union Canal is going to
21 remain there.
There is nothing in the science that we've
22 seen from the State
that shows it will be flooded. But to
23 take that point one
step further, you mentioned the waiver
24 earlier. Let's
say he is flooded. That's what a flowage
25 easement is all
about. That's what a couple of good
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1 lawyers, and Bob
Scanlon is one of the best, we could sit
2 down, we could go
through it, work out a waiver that's
3 ironclad, that will
not subject the State to any further
4 lawsuit. That is
not a problem and of course the
5 Constitution doesn't
forbid that. One of the earlier
6 speakers for DEP
suggested there was a Constitutional
7 prohibition to that,
of course not. Of course you can
8 waive any of those
rights. Nor is there a statutory
9 prohibition of it.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: So what about -- would your client be
11 willing to discuss
the commercial fishing operation or
12 whatever it's
called?
13
MR. MOORE: Absolutely. In fact, we were up here
14 early last year and
this matter was deferred. And under
15 your instructions,
the DEP was told to go back and
16 negotiate with
us. I had raised some issues about a life
17 estate and
easements. And the kind of negotiation that
18 you're talking about
was what I expected. What we got
19 instead was, Well,
how much money do you want. We said,
20 No, it's not about
that. Well, how much money? That's
21 all we've been
talking about with them and not because we
22 don't want to talk
about that, sure.
23
If there is a problem with the fish, you can have
24 some kind of
restrictions. You could carve out a
25 restriction that we'd
be able to agree with. If you think
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1 they're a noxious
species, we could handle that by
2 restricting
those. All of that is perfectly available
3 under the tools that
we have to work out something less
4 than fee
acquisition. And there is no judge rule, and I
5 haven't seen it and I
would defy the DEP to show, saying
6 that we can't give
Jesse Hardy an easement or a flowage
7 easement. Judge
didn't rule that at all. What he said
8 was he didn't want
this turned into a recreational park as
9 opposed to the
purposes for which it went before him and
10 that's perfectly
understandable.
11
So basically what I think has happened here is there
12 is a certain amount
of staff insistence, that the staff
13 has been working on
this so long, and I've seen it -- I've
14 been around
government long enough to see it -- that it's
15 really what one
appellate court called the tunnel vision
16 of bureaucracy.
And I think if we had an instance where
17 you could step back
instead of taking these conclusions
18 like, Oh, it's going
to flood. Or, Oh, he's in harm's
19 way. If you
took a look at that and see whether it was
20 really true and had
an independent investigator look at
21 it, an ombudsman,
perhaps, someone who's not a staff
22 employee of the DEP
-- and they are good folks. And they
23 are well
motivated. I'm not criticizing them at all. But
24 I think there is a
certain momentum by these staff that is
25 seeking to impel this
decision.
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Here's a possible suggestion, that we
2 take your good faith
suggestion, we defer this item.
3 Here's the constraint
so that we can negotiate and from a
4 fresh perspective to
see if possible this can be
5 reengineered and that
the flowage easement or the other
6 issues that -- where
Mr. Hardy's property might
7 actually -- we could
mitigate the possibilities of that
8 property impacting
this project, which is a legitimate
9 concern. We've
spent lots of money and I would argue this
10 is a legitimate role
for government to play. This is not
11 some kind of marginal
thing. It has been thoroughly
12 vetted in the science
and it is a serious effort to
13 protect the quality
of life for a lot of people in the
14 next generation.
15
So I am completely supportive of this project. And
16 if there is a way to
accommodate his desire to stay on
17 this property and our
needs to make sure that whatever
18 solution is
scientifically sound and doesn't cost us an
19 arm and a leg forever
and ever. In other words, to make
20 this accommodation
and if the assertion was made that the
21 cost, just ongoing
maintenance was going to be higher than
22 the property value,
that would create a real problem.
23
MR. MOORE: That would certainly create a problem.
24 And I ask you,
please, when those kind of assertions are
25 made, ask for the
backup just like you did earlier on
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1 another issue.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, that's what we want to do in
3 the next two
weeks. Is that --
4
CFO GALLAGHER: I move to defer, this is not a new
5 motion, to defer this
item --
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: You've deferred your deferral motion.
7
CFO GALLAGHER: Right. But I'm about to put it back
8 on to allow us some
negotiations with the lawyer of
9 Mr. Hardy over the
next two weeks to see if there is a use
10 plan that can be put
in where Mr. Hardy can stay there.
11 Although, he must
sign away any damages, in my opinion,
12 that would come
because of flooding that would happen,
13 recognizing what the
project is and recognizing we're more
14 than willing to buy
it from him so that that won't happen.
15
MR. MOORE: I think that's only fair. And I believe
16 Commissioner Bronson
had made the question earlier that
17 the question really
is: Can Jesse Hardy stay on site
18 without damaging the
project in any way. And I think
19 that's what we ought
to be looking at. And we'd be happy
20 to do that and that
waiver is certainly appropriate of the
21 damages. We'd
be happy to do that. Thank you very much.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: That's my motion.
23
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I'll second that.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion to defer and a
25 second. Now --
yes, General.
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1
GENERAL CRIST: Go ahead, Governor, if you have a
2 question.
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you think two weeks is enough?
4
MS. CASTILLE: Governor and members of the cabinet,
5 we have other speakers
as well. The three major
6 environmental groups
as well as former Secretary of State
7 Jim Smith who has been
involved in this project for a long
8 time.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, the question is if it's coming
10 back, do they want to
talk now or wait until it comes back
11 and see what you come
up with?
12
MS. CASTILLE: I would like for you to have the
13 benefit of their
information.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm getting -- we're getting a no
15 back there.
16
MS. CASTILLE: No what?
17
(Off-the-record discussion.)
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion to defer. Your
19 motion, is there a
time certain on that?
20
CFO GALLAGHER: Yeah, I'm hoping that they'll be
21 back in two
weeks. You can negotiate a lot of things in
22 two weeks. We
see the Legislature do in two days what is
23 a lot more
complicated than this.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: This is going to take some time to
25 develop the
engineering aspects of this.
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1
MS. CASTILLE: We have actually considered -- in the
2 engineering report
that we did, we considered the effects
3 of his proposal of the
three different -- or the 80 acres
4 of rock pits that he
planned. We considered that and
5 determined what the
effects would have and that's what we
6 have prepared for
you.
7
CFO GALLAGHER: I would suggest that you take all of
8 those downsides.
And some of those things, I think,
9 probably can't be done
if we're going to do what we're
10 going to do.
And so those things ought to be discussed
11 with him and see
where you come back in regards to his
12 being able to use
this property as a homestead for sure.
13 And if he wants to
grow fish somewhere, maybe he has to do
14 that somewhere
else. Putting 200 --
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's make the best faith effort. I
16 mean, this is a
sincere -- I'm at least convinced now.
17 And I was anxious to
have my -- be convinced of this, that
18 Mr. Hardy is sincere
about this, that this isn't some kind
19 of positioning to get
a lot of money out of the State.
20 Which the eminent
domain process, by the way, does. For
21 those that believe in
private property rights, the eminent
22 domain process allows
for property owners to get sums of
23 money that are very
fair.
24
And I'm, you know, I believe in private property
25 rights but I also
believe the taxpayers' money ought to be
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1 treated like your
family budget's money. And I'm pretty,
2 as you know,
stingy. If we can make an effort, if it
3 requires getting some
new thinking as relates to
4 engineering, you know,
I don't know who these people are,
5 but if there could be
a consensus about some of this and
6 the costs can be
looked at, I think we ought to try one
7 more time with a fresh
approach. And, Colleen, I hope
8 you're getting a sense
of the -- this governor and cabinet
9 are reluctant to use
this power. We will use it, I guess,
10 but we're reluctant
to use it as it relates to people's
11 homesteads.
12
GENERAL CRIST: Governor?
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, General.
14
GENERAL CRIST: I would agree it's not something
15 certainly ever to be
used lightly. And you have two very
16 important competing
interests, the individual property
17 rights of Mr. Hardy
and obviously the interests of the
18 people of the state
of Florida to preserve something
19 that's very precious
to all of us. So if a little more
20 time can give us the
opportunity to have both of those
21 interests be balanced
appropriately and represented well
22 and everybody win,
that would be a pretty good thing.
23
MS. CASTILLE: General, I agree with you. And we
24 will sincerely go
back and evaluate the options here at
25 the table and we will
bring Mr. Hardy in and his
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1 representative for
those discussions. But lest you leave
2 with an incomplete
picture of what the private property
3 rights tenet of the
Constitution is, I do want to remind
4 you that it is not
just that private property rights shall
5 not be taken.
The full measure of the Constitution is
6 that a citizen may not
be deprived of life, liberty or
7 property without due
process of law. Nor shall private
8 property be taken for
public use without just
9 compensation.
10
We do have two competing important principles and our
11 founding fathers did
understand that there would be times
12 in this nation's
future when the country and the citizens
13 needed a public works
project. The Everglades restoration
14 project is one such
project that is not just an
15 environmental
project, it is for the future growth of this
16 state. It is
for the health of the Everglades. And it is
17 for water, water for
people. And I would like for you to
18 remember that you
have strictly adhered to your principles
19 in not using the
eminent domain authority of the state.
20 And so you have been
limited and you have held true to the
21 Constitution of the
United States and to the vision of our
22 founding fathers who
wanted limited government and who
23 believed the inherent
rights of people were given by God
24 and not by
government.
25
So remember that and remember that we will take every
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1 effort to consider Mr.
Hardy's rights that were not given
2 by government but, in
fact, the rights of government have
3 been given by him and
by all of the people in this room.
4
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Secretary.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: Mr. Moore, are you going to be
6 negotiating for Mr.
Hardy?
7
MR. MOORE: I guess.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. Good. I just wanted to
9 establish he's got a
negotiator.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to defer and a
11 second. Any
other discussion? Without objection, as
12 Treasurer Gallagher
had predicted an hour ago, the motion
13 has been
deferred.
14
Thank you-all for coming up and we will make a
15 sincere effort to try
to resolve this. If not, maybe
16 we'll see you back up
here.
17
MS. CASTILLE: Item 6.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: Move to defer Item 6.
19
MS. CASTILLE: Deferred to the May 11th cabinet
20 meeting.
21
CFO GALLAGHER: To May 11th.
22
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
23
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you. Item 7.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: Wait a second. I need to say that
25 there is a motion and
a second. Without objection the
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1 item passes.
2
MS. CASTILLE: No, we deferred it --
3
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, the next one?
4
MS. CASTILLE: Oh, you mean on Item 5?
5
CFO GALLAGHER: Six got deferred.
6
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion to defer and a
7 second.
8
MS. CASTILLE: Yes.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, the item is
10 deferred. Where
are we now?
11
CFO GALLAGHER: Seven.
12
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry.
13
MS. CASTILLE: We're on Item 7 now.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 7.
15
MS. CASTILLE: This is a request for special events
16 lease for Mr. Dane
Graziano in Escambia County, Florida --
17 I'm sorry, in Fort
Walton Beach.
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 7.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's moved and -- is there a second?
21 General?
22
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
24 objection, the item
passes. This is a good example of
25 using the --
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: A person that's gone right.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. Guy had done good here. He
3 was a problem lessee
and now he's been fulfilling his part
4 of the bargain.
So we're appreciative.
5
MS. CASTILLE: He's been well educated in the
6 process.
7
GOVERNOR BUSH: Excellent.
8
MS. CASTILLE: Item 8.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Is there a reason why we can't do
10 Item 8 and 9
together?
11
MS. CASTILLE: At the request of the applicants, they
12 wanted to do it
separately.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. That's a reason then.
14
MS. CASTILLE: Item 8 is a request for an application
15 for a 25-year
sovereignty submerged land lease -- public
16 easement, I'm sorry,
with fees for a natural gas
17 transmission pipeline
by AES Ocean Express. This pipeline
18 is approximately 90
miles coming from Ocean Cay to the
19 Florida Power &
Light station adjacent to Port Everglades
20 in Fort Lauderdale,
Florida. This particular pipeline
21 comes in through the
Dania Beach traffic circle south of
22 John U. Lloyd State
Park and follows a -- we can't see the
23 line on that
one. And follows roads up until it gets to
24 the airport and then
goes on the airport property over to
25 Florida Power &
Light. This particular piece -- excuse
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1 me.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: General, did you want to make a
3 comment?
4
GENERAL CRIST: Yes. Thank you, Governor. We have
5 two former members of
the cabinet with us today. Former
6 Secretary of State
George Firestone and former Secretary
7 of State and a
predecessor of mine, General Jim Smith.
8 And just wanted to
acknowledge their presence and thank
9 them for being
here. Thank you, Governor.
10
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, General.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome back.
12
(Off-the-record discussion.)
13
MS. CASTILLE: As you know, we had a significant
14 cabinet meeting about
a month ago where we presented most
15 of the information
here. A lot of the questions that you
16 had are what I would
like to address today.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: Colleen?
18
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: If we could take a literally a
20 five-minute break for
the court reporter. Just take a pit
21 stop real
quick. Probably will be great since this will
22 take a little
time. Three minutes.
23
(Brief recess.)
24
MS. CASTILLE: Governor, members of the cabinet,
25 we're ready to begin
when you are.
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Let's begin.
2
MS. CASTILLE: One of the questions that was brought
3 up at the last meeting
was we spent a lot of time
4 identifying gaps in
the reefs and directing applicants to
5 utilize those
gaps. In the -- on AES -- on AES, there is
6 a gap that the company
is coming to and we're looking for
7 the map.
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: I just can't see it.
9
MS. CASTILLE: It's the wrong map. (Pause.) There
10 is a gap that the --
AES is using a gap and coming in
11 through an area that
has no residential construction, has
12 no residential homes
and has no commercial enterprises
13 either. So the
most important aspect of where the
14 companies are trying
to evaluate the location of their
15 pipeline is the
impact that it will have on land.
16
In this case, AES representative Richard Brightman
17 was actually very
involved in the process of us
18 establishing and
identifying those gaps for use. And when
19 we looked at this
particular piece of property, there is a
20 Navy facility here
where they were not allowed to bring --
21 where they were not
allowed to bring the -- their pipeline
22 into the area.
23
GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you pointing?
24
MS. CASTILLE: I am not pointing. We're still
25 waiting on --
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
2
MS. CASTILLE: There's the gap. Okay. So the gap,
3 it does come through
the gap. It comes in through the gap
4 there and then comes
around the Navy property which is
5 right around that area
and then comes into the Dania Beach
6 traffic circle.
Then it goes into -- it goes up a road
7 and to the airport
property to the south of the airport
8 property. You
could probably barely see the yellow line
9 there. That is
the location of it. Then it goes up on
10 the western side of
the property and over to Florida Power
11 & Light. We
asked, last night, both companies to give us
12 a reason and possibly
an alternative cost if they
13 relocated the
pipeline to a location completely north of
14 any of the high
quality reefs that we have in the Dade,
15 Broward and Palm
Beach area.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: Colleen, I may have misunderstood. I
17 apologize if I
did. You said it went through the gap.
18
MS. CASTILLE: It went through the gap in the reef.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: It didn't go through the gap that we
20 established at the
Board -- it didn't go through a gap.
21 The question was
could it go through the gap. And the
22 answer is it can't
feasibly for economic reasons, correct?
23
MS. CASTILLE: That is correct.
24
GOVERNOR BUSH: But it isn't going through the gap.
25 The gap, as I
understand it, is our established gaps for
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1 laying of the
cable.
2
MS. CASTILLE: Yes. But it is going through the gap
3 on the outer reef, the
third reef. Is that correct, Tim?
4
MR. RACH: Correct.
5
MS. CASTILLE: And then it is being directionally
6 drilled underneath the
other two reefs that we have, the
7 first and second
reef. Directionally drilled under those
8 which is at additional
cost.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's not the gap.
10
MR. RACH: It's not a defined gap.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Just want to make that
12 clear since that was
the question that I posed that I
13 think you were
following up on.
14
MS. CASTILLE: The three gaps -- okay, the gaps that
15 go through all three
reefs.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, ma'am.
17
MS. CASTILLE: It does not go through that gap.
18
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
19
MS. CASTILLE: So the directional drilling of the --
20 underneath the reefs
is a costly process. And so what we
21 asked last night was
did the companies consider an
22 alternative location
that would completely avoid all of
23 the reefs throughout
-- through the Dade, Broward, and
24 Palm Beach
area. And the answer was, yes, they did
25 suggest that.
It did go through the FERC evaluation.
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1 There were a
significant number of water bodies that it
2 would have to go
through. There is also a hard bottom
3 reef that would have
some impact. So there would be
4 additional cost to
that. And they would have to connect
5 to the pipeline far
north of where the gas is needed.
6
In this case, what would have to happen is they would
7 have to build a
pipeline adjacent to the existing Florida
8 Gas Transmission line
and send it all the way down south
9 to where it was needed
and put in compression pumps to
10 keep the gas moving
down that location.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: But the onshore impacts --
12
MS. CASTILLE: The onshore impacts were far
13 greater --
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- were significant.
15
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, were far greater than what we
16 have here.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: You might even have eminent domain
18 issues.
19
(Laughter.)
20
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, we would. And am I correct that
21 utilities are given
eminent domain authority?
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: They are but we try to avoid that.
23
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, we do, as much as possible. So
24 AES -- so we were
following on -- this is a new process
25 for us. We did
not have a rule -- we do not have a rule
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1 in place for public
transmission lines. And we tried to
2 take two rules that we
had, both an upland rule and a
3 private easement rule
and melded the two together. In
4 using our fiber optic
cable rule, we established a cost of
5 $125,000 for the
easement and a -- and then there was some
6 mitigation that we
have -- that we also have provided.
7
(Pause.)
8
So we also had proprietary issues and we had
9 regulatory
issues. And what we tried to do was to balance
10 both the proprietary
and the regulatory protective
11 measures on these
projects in balancing the public trust.
12 On the AES Ocean
Express, we provided a 25-foot easement
13 with the following
conditions: That if the pipeline is
14 not constructed or
the construction initiated within -- is
15 not initiated within
five years after the permit issuance,
16 that the easement
shall expire. That if the applicant
17 qualifies for a
permit extension for the construction
18 phase beyond the
initial five years and should the
19 applicants wish to
maintain the original easement terms,
20 that the request
shall be brought before the Board of
21 Trustees for
consideration. And that any assignment of
22 the easement would
also have to be approved by the Board
23 of Trustees.
The resource impacts on AES Ocean Express
24 are 2.07 acres of
sand --
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: Colleen?
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1
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir.
2
GOVERNOR BUSH: How about nonassignability rather
3 than -- or maybe there
would be some assignability to a
4 corporate entity
that's described, you know, where there
5 is no change in
controlling interest or something. But I
6 thought we were
looking at the -- doing it the inverse or
7 the reverse of what
you just described.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: So it's not assignable. And if they
9 want a new one, they
have to come to us.
10
MS. CASTILLE: Well, it's only assignable with your
11 approval.
12
GOVERNOR BUSH: I know, but it's --
13
MS. CASTILLE: You want it to be nonassignable, we
14 can do that.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a legal reason why we
16 couldn't do that?
17
CFO GALLAGHER: Speak now or hold your peace,
18 gentlemen. This
goes for both of them. So don't think
19 we're just talking
about AES.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: The issue -- again, I'm not a lawyer.
21 I only play one for
purposes of cabinet meetings. But if
22 you do it the way
you're proposing, Colleen, they could,
23 perhaps, challenge
our decision of denial of the
24 assignability.
And I think the burden ought to be on --
25 not on us, but on the
applicants, given the fact that,
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1 while they may
disagree, I think there's only going to be
2 one of these things
for awhile.
3
CFO GALLAGHER: You got two people that want to talk
4 about that.
5
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Good morning, Governor, members of
6 the Board of
Trustees. I'm Richard Brightman on behalf of
7 AES Ocean
Express. We had agreed to the nonassignability
8 condition that we
discussed last time. One important
9 factor that needs to
be carved out of that is a collateral
10 assignment.
That is, an assignment to lenders that is
11 collateral for a loan
to construct the pipeline. So we
12 cannot have just an
absolute blanket prohibition of all
13 assignments because
that then begins to interfere with the
14 ability to finance
the construction.
15
We seek to have a collateral assignment which isn't
16 an actual assignment
of the easement. We would still
17 retain the
easement. And then if the foreclosure were to
18 ever occur when that
collateral assignment would kick in,
19 the approval of that
would have to come back to the board
20 for its
approval. That's the collateral assignment that
21 we feel is
appropriate under the circumstances.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, people automatically think
23 they can sell it to
somebody else to go get their money
24 back.
25
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Upon your approval. You would have
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1 the right to approve
or not, whoever that might be.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, that still puts us in a
3 position where those
that make the loan expect it and
4 would sue us because
they signed it for collateral and now
5 they won't be able to
get it.
6
MR. BRIGHTMAN: And, in fact, we went through this
7 with staff and we
wrote into the draft easement document
8 the specific criteria
that would be looked at under that
9 collateral assignment
which would be the basis upon which
10 the Board would make
that decision. And it had to do with
11 the satisfactory
character of the S and E and the meeting
12 of all the conditions
that are in the easement and those
13 kinds of things that
at least we thought were the
14 appropriate criteria
for the basis for that decision, you
15 know.
16
CFO GALLAGHER: What you're doing then is you're
17 really putting us in
a box because as opposed to it being
18 a decision that we
could make as a proprietary owner of
19 that property, all of
a sudden you're saying, By the way,
20 if they meet all
these criteria, you got to give it to
21 them and that's not
where we want to be, at least not
22 where this particular
person wants to be.
23
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's just in the draft easement.
24 If you want to change
that and take those out, that's
25 fine. But my
point is it's important -- at least for our
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1 project -- that we
have the ability to do a collateral
2 assignment, to use the
whole project including the
3 easement as collateral
for a loan to finance construction
4 or some other
portion.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: At that point, it's the same as
6 assignable because you
want to assign it, you run it
7 through the bank.
8
MR. BRIGHTMAN: No, the assignment would be
9 specifically
conditioned if it ever came to pass upon the
10 approval of the
Board. That's what we understood the
11 request to be last
time.
12
CFO GALLAGHER: Carry me through this.
13
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes, sir.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: You're not going to do the deal. So
15 you go to the
bank. The bank forecloses it. The bank
16 comes to us and says,
We're going to give it to these
17 people. We're
stuck. Now these people, whoever they are,
18 get it.
19
MR. BRIGHTMAN: No, I think at that point you have
20 the ability and the
right to look at who these people are.
21 Do they have the
appropriate wherewithal, expertise, and
22 background in order
to do the project appropriately and in
23 accordance with
--
24
CFO GALLAGHER: And what if we just don't want any
25 more going there or
we don't want to have -- maybe we find
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1 out something new
about pipelines and we don't want to
2 have any more
pipelines? We don't have a choice. That's
3 the issue I'm worried
about.
4
MR. BRIGHTMAN: I think that there are procedures,
5 revocation procedures
that are available under existing
6 law that you could
seek to impose at that time if you made
7 that decision.
8
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Governor, if I might. How
9 does that protect the
bank then or whoever is going to
10 make the loan under
that assignment? How are they
11 protected?
12
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Very little protection, you're
13 absolutely
right. The banks hate it because it is not
14 just an automatic
assignment.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Let me just ask the other lady that
16 was going to stand
up.
17
MS. CASTILLE: Anne Longman.
18
MS. LONGMAN: Good morning, Governor Bush, cabinet
19 members. My
name is Anne Longman. I'm with the law firm
20 of Lewis, Longman and
Walker. And I'm the attorney for
21 the Tractebel Calypso
project. I don't think I disagree
22 with anything that
Mr. Brightman has said. But I'm not
23 sure I understand the
question. If we could maybe restate
24 the question.
25
CFO GALLAGHER: The question is, one, we agreed to
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1 nonassignable.
2
MS. LONGMAN: Right.
3
CFO GALLAGHER: But the question is -- the question
4 to you is: Do
you need to use this pipeline as a
5 collateral for
borrowing to build it?
6
MS. LONGMAN: And I can't answer that question here
7 today.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Here's the issue. Whether you do or
9 not, if, in fact, you
want that clause in there that it is
10 used for collateral,
then we're stuck with the bank takes
11 it over and the bank
can put it wherever they want or sue
12 us to allow them to
do that.
13
MS. LONGMAN: Well, I actually think -- and I must
14 say that I --
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Or lenders. It may not be a bank.
16
MS. LONGMAN: Yeah. I have not thought about this
17 issue before today
because this has not been posed to us
18 before. But
what is in the agenda item is any assignment
19 of the easement would
have to be approved by the trustees.
20 I actually think that
that gives you plenty of protection
21 if you simply state
it in that way. This is a little bit
22 awkward because it
may be that the other project here has
23 some different needs
and requirements than the Tractebel
24 Calypso
project. I think the way that it was stated in
25 the agenda item is
sufficient both to protect you and to
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1 protect my client.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Let me ask you a question then. If
3 you're financing it,
don't you sign some kind of
4 assignment, collateral
assignment, in order to get the
5 loan? I mean, I
can't imagine that you wouldn't, but you
6 tell me.
7
MS. LONGMAN: Well, I don't know. And there may be
8 people here who are
more involved in the financial aspect
9 of this than I
am. But what I understood you to be saying
10 was that you wanted
to be protected in the event of
11 another entity coming
in and actually moving forward with
12 the project, which I
find completely understandable.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Right. But, see, another entity
14 comes in two
ways. They can come in because they buy it,
15 the rights from you,
which is the one you've agreed that
16 we won't have.
17
MS. LONGMAN: Yes.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: Or it can be by foreclosure of
19 lenders who then have
the right to do it themselves.
20
MS. LONGMAN: And I am agreeing with you.
21
CFO GALLAGHER: All right. So what do we do about
22 that?
23
MS. LONGMAN: I think there is a way to write this.
24 I think this is a
lawyer job. That if we can articulate
25 what the goal is,
that we can do it with lawyering. If an
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1 assignment to a lender
results in a foreclosure, that then
2 means another entity
is going to carry forward with the
3 project. I think
that falls within what you are trying to
4 accomplish. You
don't want another entity that you
5 haven't looked at
moving forward with the project. And I
6 think we can write it
that way without affecting someone's
7 ability to finance
their project.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, that's where I'm coming from.
9 Let's do this.
I'm willing at this point, we've gotten
10 that one
discussed. We know where that needs to be. We
11 know we're going to
have the $5 million up, no assignment.
12 No. 3 was a five-year
term. Non -- it can't be carried
13 past the five years
without it coming back here and starts
14 de novo basically
although you're going to have all the
15 information.
And with that, I'll move to approve 8 and 9.
16
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, let's get -- is there a second,
17 first?
18
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I'll second that.
19
GOVERNOR BUSH: Both of them?
20
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Yes.
21
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Yes, General.
22
GENERAL CRIST: Yes, I just have a question about the
23 five-year
limitation. Does that affect the ability to be
24 successful?
25
GOVERNOR BUSH: No, that's to start.
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1
MR. BRIGHTMAN: We don't think so. It would take
2 circumstances beyond
our wildest imagination, perhaps. I
3 could imagine rather
wildly. But it would take extreme
4 circumstances for it
to be a factor at all.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. There is a motion and a
6 second. Colleen,
have you finished your presentation?
7
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir.
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do we have any speakers that haven't
9 spoken on this issue
before?
10
(No response.)
11
Okay. Any other discussion?
12
MS. CASTILLE: Would you like us to -- the language
13 on the
nonassignability, would you like us to present that
14 to your offices?
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Obviously we would like to look at
16 that.
17
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second. Any
18 other
discussion? Without objection, the motions pass.
19
There you have it.
20
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, Governor and members of the
21 cabinet, that
concludes our agenda.
22
23
24
25
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Administration.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes on March 30th
3 meeting.
4
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
5
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a second.
6 Without objection,
Item 1 passes.
7
Item 2.
8
MR. STIPANOVICH: Item 2, Governor and members, is
9 the request for
approval of fiscal sufficiency of an
10 amount not exceeding
130 million State of Florida
11 Tampa-Hillsborough
County Expressway authority bonds.
12
GENERAL CRIST: Motion.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Second.
14
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. Without
15 objection, the item
passes.
16
MR. STIPANOVICH: Item 3 is the Florida Hurricane
17 Catastrophe Fund
request for approval of three separate
18 items. The
first is five rules that deal with
19 ineligibility and
exemption from Florida Hurricane
20 Catastrophe Fund
revenue bonds, insurer responsibility and
21 reimbursement of
contracts.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: Governor, I'd like to move that we
23 approve the Florida
Hurricane Catastrophic Fund's 2004,
24 2005 premium
formula. This premium formula accommodates
25 the passage of the
Catastrophe Fund's proposed legislation
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1 with a 2004 effective
date and incorporates the adjustment
2 to rates which would
provide for higher limits, 15
3 billion, and resetting
of the insurance industry
4 retention, 4
billion. If the effective date of the
5 legislation is 2005,
my motion authorizes the SBA staff to
6 increase the capacity
for 2004 to the maximum allowable
7 based on the May
bonding capacity estimates --
8
GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you explain that?
9
CFO GALLAGHER: -- allowing for appropriate
10 rounding.
Yes.
11
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
12
CFO GALLAGHER: I made that motion. There is some
13 legislation
pending. If it passes, it will increase the
14 bond amount to the 15
billion, 4 billion retention.
15
GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
16
CFO GALLAGHER: This will be us approving that so
17 they'll be able to
run the numbers and get it out to the
18 insurance
companies. Otherwise, it will be as high as
19 they're allowed to do
it without that.
20
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
21
GENERAL CRIST: Just one question. Is there any
22 rationale to waiting
to see if the legislation passes?
23
CFO GALLAGHER: Sorry?
24
GENERAL CRIST: Is there any rationale to waiting to
25 see if the
legislation passes? Is there a need to act
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1 today?
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, the best thing to do is if, in
3 fact, they know -- if
the legislation passes and they know
4 we're in agreement,
then they will do all the computations
5 necessary, let the
insurance companies necessary know, and
6 it will allow them to
talk to their reinsurers and
7 negotiate a change in
their reinsurance package to go
8 along with this.
So the sooner they'd know it, the better
9 off we all are.
10
GOVERNOR BUSH: This just gives you a chance to do
11 some advance
work.
12
GENERAL CRIST: Get some numbers essentially.
13
GOVERNOR BUSH: And as it relates to the rates, that
14 still would come back
to us.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, this would approve the rates.
16 And, by the way, for
what's that worth, this basically, if
17 the legislation
changes, it basically has about a 6.77
18 savings. I'm
going to remember that number off the top of
19 my head --
20
MR. STIPANOVICH: That's correct, Treasurer.
21
CFO GALLAGHER: 6.7 is from memory. For the
22 industry which should
help us. It's very important that
23 we have a larger
capacity and this will assist in that in
24 expanding the
capacity by changing the max allowed.
25
GENERAL CRIST: So if I might. The point of the
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1 motion is to increase
capacity so people have coverage in
2 the event we have a
catastrophic event. And this allows
3 this to track the
legislation that may pass in the next
4 three weeks, to go
ahead and compute what the numbers
5 might be.
6
CFO GALLAGHER: That's right.
7
GENERAL CRIST: Any idea what the impact would be on
8 the individual
homeowner who would be covered?
9
CFO GALLAGHER: There's two things you have to look
10 at. One, no, we
don't know what gets passed on to the
11 individual
homeowner. And because we don't know what
12 individual companies
buy in reinsurance in the open
13 market. So not
knowing that, we don't know what their
14 costs are. We
do know this. That if this passes this
15 year, the bill does,
and, you know, our motion passes
16 here, that there will
be an increased capacity to insure
17 homes which means a
more competitive market, easier to buy
18 insurance. We
do know that. The price, I don't think we
19 can put any guarantee
on it. But there are companies that
20 once they have this
capacity, they will be writing more
21 business.
22
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion. Treasurer
23 Gallagher has made a
motion. Is there a second?
24
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
25
MR. STIPANOVICH: Governor?
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1
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
2
MR. STIPANOVICH: Just for clarity purposes, this is
3 agenda Item 3.
There are three parts of this agenda item.
4 If you want to make
the motion to approve all three parts.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: Let me just restate. The motion I
6 made includes Items
3.1, 3.2, and 3.3.
7
GOVERNOR BUSH: Your 3.2 is amended, correct?
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Right.
9
GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion on Item 3 as
10 amended by Treasurer
Gallagher specific to Item 3.2 and
11 there is a
second. Is there any other discussion? Motion
12 passes
unanimously.
13
MR. STIPANOVICH: That completes my agenda, Governor
14 and members.
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GOVERNOR BUSH: That's it?
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MR. STIPANOVICH: Yes, sir.
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GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Coleman.
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(Thereupon, the proceedings adjourned at 12:30 p.m.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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114
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
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4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF LEON )
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I, KRISTEN L. BENTLEY, Court Reporter, certify that
8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at
the time and
9 place therein designated; that my shorthand notes
were
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thereafter translated under my supervision; and the foregoing
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pages numbered 1 through 113 are a true and correct record of
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the aforesaid proceedings.
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I further certify that I am not a relative, employee,
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attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative
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or employee of any of the parties' attorney or counsel
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connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in
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the action.
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DATED this 28th day of April, 2004.
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______________________________
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KRISTEN L. BENTLEY, Court
Reporter
Notary Public
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850-878-2221
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS,
INC.
.