Cabinet
Affairs |
10:19 1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
6 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
7 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
8 TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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10 The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
11 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
12 February 13, 1996, commencing at approximately
9:44 a.m.
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16 Reported by:
17 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
18 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
19 the State of Florida at Large
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22 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
23 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
904/878-2221
24 1-800/934-9090
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
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BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
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SANDRA B. MORTHAM
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
10
BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN
Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
February 13, 1996
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION:
(Presented by John Douglas,
4 Interim Executive Director)
5 1 Approved 5
2 Approved 6
6
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
7 (Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
Deputy Commissioner)
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1 Approved 7
9 2 (Substitute
Amendment) Approved 43
10 (Rule Amendment) Approved 44
3 Approved 44
11 4 Approved 44
12 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Gale Sittig,
13 Deputy Director)
14 1 Approved 45
2 Approved 45
15 3 Deferred 45
4 Approved 46
16 5 Approved 46
17 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
18 (Presented by Gale Sittig,
Deputy Secretary)
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1 Approved 53
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
February 13, 1996
4
1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
4 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
5 (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
Secretary)
6
1 Approved 55
7 2 Approved 55
3 Approved 55
8 Second
Substitute 4 Approved 56
9 5 Approved 56
Substitute 6 Approved 56
10 7 Approved 57
8 Deferred 57
11 9 Withdrawn 122
10 Approved 159
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 160
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 13, 1996
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:21 a.m.)
10:19 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: And now we'll start with
10:19 4 the Information Resource Commission.
10:19 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on
10:19 6 minutes.
10:19 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:19 8 MR. DOUGLAS: Good morning, Governor,
10:19 9 members of the Cabinet.
10:19 10 Item number 1, the minutes.
10:20 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: They've been moved.
10:20 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:20 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Seconded.
10:20 14 Without objection, they're adopted.
15 MR. DOUGLAS: Item number 2, Governor, I'd
10:20 16 like to make a couple of comments on. It's our
10:20 17 annual report that we have dramatically
10:20 18 redesigned for brevity and ease of use.
10:20 19 We're attempting to develop an annual
10:20 20 report that people will want to use. It
10:20 21 includes State Agency and IRC accomplishments in
10:20 22 the area of reengineering, communications to
10:20 23 connectivity, the movement from mainframe to
10:20 24 distributed computing systems, and the
10:20 25 implementation of new technologies.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 13, 1996
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10:20 1 It shows how the State has spent
10:20 2 $326 million last year on managing its
10:20 3 information resources. It has a complete
10:20 4 technology inventory, and includes new
10:20 5 acquisitions. The contents of this report will
10:20 6 also be on the IRC's Internet Web Site for
10:20 7 public access.
10:20 8 We recommend and request your approval of
10:20 9 this report.
10:20 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move
10:20 11 approval.
10:20 12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
10:20 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:20 14 Without objection, the report is approved.
10:21 15 MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, Governor.
10:21 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
17 (The Information Resource Commission Agenda
18 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:21 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Education.
10:21 2 MR. BEDFORD: Governor Chiles, members of
10:21 3 the State Board of Education, good morning.
10:21 4 Item 1, quarterly reports for the quarter
10:21 5 ended December 31st, 1996.
10:21 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:21 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:21 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
10:21 9 seconded.
10 Without objection, it's adopted.
10:21 11 MR. BEDFORD: Item 2, rule 6A, dash,
10:21 12 4.0021, Amendment, Florida Teacher Certification
10:21 13 Examination deferred from the January 23rd,
10:21 14 1996, State Board of Education agenda.
10:21 15 I think at the last meeting we presented to
10:21 16 you -- the Standards Commission made a report,
10:21 17 and you asked to have this item deferred until
10:21 18 this meeting.
10:21 19 We have several people that have requested
10:21 20 permission to address the Cabinet.
10:21 21 Florence Brainerd from the Florida Reading
10:21 22 Association will be the first speaker.
10:21 23 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, can you --
10:21 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
10:21 25 TREASURER NELSON: -- can you refresh our
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:22 1 memory? What is the posture we're in?
10:22 2 The rule that is before us for adoption or
10:22 3 modification is what?
10:22 4 MR. BEDFORD: The rule that we are
10:22 5 presenting to you today is the exact same rule
10:22 6 that we had on the agenda at the last meeting.
10:22 7 TREASURER NELSON: And the two
10:22 8 controversial items there was a B or a C
10:22 9 required of teachers, and then what was the
10:22 10 other controversial point?
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The recency --
10:22 12 MR. BEDFORD: The recency of credit,
10:22 13 whether the courses had to be taken in the last
10:22 14 five years or not.
10:22 15 TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
10:22 16 MS. BRAINERD: Good morning, Cabinet. I'm
10:22 17 Florence Brainerd, and I represent the Florida
10:22 18 Reading Association. And the Florida Reading
10:22 19 Association represents over 9,000 members who
10:22 20 are actively interested in reading and writing
10:22 21 instruction.
10:22 22 The Florida Reading Association supports
10:22 23 the rule brought to the State Board of Education
10:22 24 by the Department of Education that provides
10:23 25 teacher certification applicants an alternative
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:23 1 method for demonstrating mastery of general
10:23 2 knowledge.
10:23 3 We believe the Department of Education's
10:23 4 proposal is fair -- a fair alternative for those
10:23 5 who cannot pass the CLAST but want to show a
10:23 6 level of expertise sufficient to meet the
10:23 7 standards of becoming a Florida teacher.
10:23 8 The proposal requires them to take an
10:23 9 affirmative step in order to earn a teacher's --
10:23 10 becoming a teacher in Florida.
10:23 11 The proposal requires them to take an
10:23 12 affirmative step in order to earn the teaching
10:23 13 certificate, and to do less would devalue the
10:23 14 long hours and hard work put by -- put in by the
10:23 15 teachers who have already passed the CLAST.
10:23 16 We need to maintain the highest standards
10:24 17 of professionalism in education, and the
10:24 18 Department of Education's rule accomplishes this
10:24 19 goal.
10:24 20 Thank you.
10:24 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
10:24 22 MR. BEDFORD: The next person to address
10:24 23 the State Board of Education will be Tom Denmark
10:24 24 from the Florida Council of Teachers of
10:24 25 Mathematics.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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February 13, 1996
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10:24 1 MR. DENMARK: Governor Chiles, members of
10:24 2 the State Board of Education, my name is
10:24 3 Tom Denmark, and I represent both the Florida
10:24 4 Association of Science Teachers, and the Florida
10:24 5 Council of Teachers in Mathematics.
10:24 6 These organizations have asked me to convey
10:24 7 to you their support for the use of alternatives
10:24 8 to the CLAST. They also asked me to convey
10:24 9 their assessment that the proposed rule provides
10:24 10 reasonable alternatives to the CLAST.
10:24 11 They look at the criteria for certification
10:25 12 as very much similar to the graduation
10:25 13 requirements for college. You have a general
10:25 14 studies component, which everybody is expected
10:25 15 to meet, and you have the major requirements.
10:25 16 The certification criteria are similarly
10:25 17 divided. You have a generic skills part that is
10:25 18 expected of all teachers to meet, and then you
10:25 19 have the criteria that is related to a
10:25 20 particular teaching field.
10:25 21 It is their position that all applicants
10:25 22 for a teaching certificate in Florida should
10:25 23 meet, as a minimum, the criteria for graduation
10:25 24 from college as currently in State Board of
10:25 25 Education rules.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:25 1 We believe that the proposed amendment
10:25 2 provides sufficient flexibility to meet the
10:25 3 needs of individual teachers; and at the same
10:26 4 time, maintains high teaching standards.
10:26 5 Thank you.
10:26 6 MR. BEDFORD: I believe that is the last
10:26 7 presenter. The others have declined.
10:26 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, just a
10:26 9 comment.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
10:26 11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I will try to be
10:26 12 brief, because I know we talked about this at
10:26 13 the last meeting. But I think as
10:26 14 Commissioner Nelson mentioned, it is important
10:26 15 that we reset the stage.
10:26 16 Just a couple of thoughts: One, that we're
10:26 17 talking about a required alternative through
10:26 18 legislation that has been created for those who
10:26 19 have been unable to pass one subset of the CLAST
10:26 20 test on multiple administrations.
10:26 21 We did accept much of the recommendation of
10:26 22 the Standards Commission, which is included in
10:26 23 our proposed rule; the creation for the
10:26 24 administration of the Praxis test, which is an
10:26 25 alternative test to the CLAST; as well as the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:26 1 parts of the rule that are being discussed
10:26 2 today, which is the use of college level
10:26 3 course work with a grade of a B, and that
10:27 4 course work having been taken in the last
10:27 5 five years, the recency issue, to also be
10:27 6 another way to demonstrate proficiency as an
10:27 7 alternative to the CLAST.
10:27 8 In the thousands and thousands of
10:27 9 administrations of the CLAST since 1984,
10:27 10 I believe, when it was first administered in
10:27 11 this state, to demonstrate basic skills in
10:27 12 reading and writing and mathematics, we're in
10:27 13 actuality talking about a handful of persons who
10:27 14 would avail themself of this alternative.
10:27 15 And as pointed out at the last meeting, and
10:27 16 it is absolutely correct, another part of the
10:27 17 rule is the fact that along with the
10:27 18 course work, all teachers, including the
10:27 19 teachers who would fall into this category, must
10:27 20 demonstrate generic teaching competencies in the
10:27 21 area of pedagogy, whether they pass the CLAST,
22 or whether they use the alternative method to
10:27 23 CLAST -- to pass CLAST.
10:27 24 So regardless of the avenue that someone
10:28 25 uses to ultimately seek initial licensure in the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:28 1 state of Florida as a professional educator,
10:28 2 beyond that step, which is passing the CLAST,
10:28 3 which a significant number of states require
10:28 4 some sort of a demonstration of minimal skills
10:28 5 competency in the areas of reading, writing, and
10:28 6 math, all professional educators seeking that
10:28 7 initial licensure must also go through a
10:28 8 verification of teaching skills.
10:28 9 So I think there may have been some
10:28 10 confusion in the past that this is the hurdle to
10:28 11 be jumped by professional educators, when,
10:28 12 indeed, this is one of several that must be --
10:28 13 must be fulfilled in order to seek and gain
10:28 14 initial certification as a professional educator
10:28 15 in the state of Florida.
10:28 16 We'd be glad to take any questions that the
10:28 17 members of the State Board would have, Governor.
10:28 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question.
10:28 19 TREASURER NELSON: I'd like the person from
10:28 20 the Education Standards Commission who was
10:28 21 listed here to speak, to come up and to answer
10:28 22 the question for me.
10:28 23 Apparently on the question of the recency
10:29 24 requirement and also the grade requirement,
10:29 25 there was a difference between the Department of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:29 1 Education, and the Education Standards
10:29 2 Commission. And I'd like to know about those
10:29 3 differences.
10:29 4 MR. BEDFORD: Ms. Charlotte Minnick Boroto.
10:29 5 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: Good morning,
10:29 6 Governor, and members of the Cabinet.
10:29 7 Yes, there was a difference.
10:29 8 The Standards Commission did not recommend
10:29 9 the recency --
10:29 10 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
11 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: -- requirement.
10:29 12 One of the reasons for that was that they
10:29 13 would, indeed, have to demonstrate those
10:29 14 competencies to a team that would consist of the
10:29 15 principal, a peer teacher, and a person from the
10:29 16 district level before that district would send
10:29 17 in that they were eligible for their
10:29 18 certificate.
10:29 19 TREASURER NELSON: And how about the
10:29 20 grade?
10:29 21 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: The grade. The grade
10:29 22 was determined to be a C in each course that
10:29 23 would be required, number one, because that was
10:29 24 consistent with the Gordon requirement; and
10:30 25 secondly, because they would have to demonstrate
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:30 1 this in addition to getting the grade.
10:30 2 TREASURER NELSON: And how was that
10:30 3 different from the Department of Education
10:30 4 position?
10:30 5 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: The current rule in
10:30 6 front of you has a recency requirement, and that
10:30 7 is that the courses would be taken within the
10:30 8 last five years, and it requires a B.
10:30 9 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Thank you.
10:30 10 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: In the course work.
10:30 11 TREASURER NELSON: Thanks, Governor.
10:30 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other questions?
10:30 13 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you, Charlotte.
10:30 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
10:30 15 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
10:30 16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'd move
10:30 17 approval of the rule as forward.
10:30 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Been moved and --
10:30 19 TREASURER NELSON: And I have an amendment.
10:30 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
10:30 21 Is there a second first?
10:30 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I'll second it.
10:30 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:30 24 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I move that we
10:30 25 amend this rule to require a C grade in the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:30 1 college course work, and eliminate the 60-month
10:30 2 recency requirement, which is consistent, as the
10:31 3 lady stated, with the report of the Education
10:31 4 Standards Commission recommendations.
10:31 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. You've heard
10:31 6 the amendment. Is there discussion?
10:31 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I'd like to at
10:31 8 least comment. I think on principle, I
10:31 9 certainly support what the Commissioner of
10:31 10 Education is trying to do, and that is to raise
10:31 11 the standard.
10:31 12 I have a little bit of a problem though
10:31 13 with the idea that there is no flexibility left
10:31 14 in the hands of the leadership that is involved
10:31 15 with a particular teacher.
10:31 16 So I -- I cannot support the idea of being
10:31 17 a C. I can support the idea of being a B, I can
10:31 18 support the recency.
10:31 19 But I'd like to see some flexibility
10:31 20 built in so that the leadership can, in fact --
10:31 21 that know the teacher, can make an assessment,
10:31 22 and could accept that teacher with perhaps a C
10:32 23 passing grade based on their personal assessment
10:32 24 of their ability in the classroom.
10:32 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: I --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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February 13, 1996
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10:32 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So I'm trying to not
10:32 2 bypass what the Commissioner has proposed. But
10:32 3 I think it's important that before we go
10:32 4 directly --
10:32 5 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
10:32 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- to a C, that we
10:32 7 at least acknowledge that there may be something
10:32 8 in between going to a C and having a B as a
10:32 9 standard.
10:32 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, refresh my memory.
10:32 11 I thought the -- the standards -- the Commission
10:32 12 had also a third sort of way that if you went
10:32 13 before a certain peer group. Was that an
10:32 14 alternative for the six months, or was that an
10:32 15 alternative grade?
10:32 16 There was a piece in there that seems like
10:32 17 it would --
10:32 18 MR. BEDFORD: Yeah. We're bringing
10:32 19 Charlotte back up to --
10:32 20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: As -- as is part of
10:32 21 the rule before you today, Governor, you're
10:32 22 right. One of the -- as a part of the
10:32 23 alternative, it is a peer review process that is
10:33 24 included, but it also includes taking and
10:33 25 passing courses as a part of that total
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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February 13, 1996
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10:33 1 package.
10:33 2 So not only if someone fails the CLAST
10:33 3 would they have the alternative to take a
10:33 4 different test, they have the alternative of
10:33 5 using college credit combined with a peer review
10:33 6 process at the local district level.
10:33 7 And let me -- let me point out to you, too,
10:33 8 because I think there's some -- there's some
10:33 9 miscommunication on this issue. I'm not
10:33 10 suggesting that we make the standard more
10:33 11 difficult for those who opt for this particular
10:33 12 alternative.
10:33 13 As I pointed out at the last meeting, this
10:33 14 is my definition of an alternative which is
10:33 15 equal to that of the CLAST.
10:33 16 So I -- I think the fact that some people
10:33 17 might believe that we're trying to make it more
10:33 18 difficult by using this alternative, we're just
10:33 19 simply suggesting that the B in the course work,
10:33 20 and the recency of the last five years, in my
10:33 21 opinion, would be an equal-to alternative to the
10:33 22 CLAST, not more difficult.
10:34 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But if I understood
10:34 24 you, Commissioner, that the peer group review
10:34 25 does not have the option of saying, well, you
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:34 1 have a C, and, therefore, will qualify.
10:34 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That is correct.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You don't have --
10:34 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That is -- that's a
10:34 5 part of the --
10:34 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's right.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- peer review --
10:34 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- it's B --
10:34 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and --
10:34 10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and a
10:34 11 peer group --
10:34 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, not or.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- which you --
10:34 14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
10:34 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I guess I just come
10:34 16 from a different school where you don't
10:34 17 necessarily have everything be a cookie cutter
10:34 18 approach, that you need to give leadership the
10:34 19 opportunity to have some flexibility.
10:34 20 And that's why I don't support the C as
10:34 21 being the answer, I support the B as being the
10:34 22 appropriate goal. But I think there ought to be
10:34 23 some flexibility in the leadership.
10:34 24 And that -- I just wanted to make that
10:34 25 comment before we --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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10:34 1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
10:34 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- worked on this --
10:34 3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: One of the issues
10:34 4 that we wrestled with in terms of the peer
10:34 5 review without the grades is the fact that you
10:34 6 would ultimately have a scenario where people at
10:34 7 the local level were certifying the teacher for
10:35 8 statewide purposes at the local level.
10:35 9 In other words, if we use an alternative,
10:35 10 which is simply a peer review, and a person is
10:35 11 allowed to use the peer review in lieu of
10:35 12 passing tests or in lieu of demonstrating
10:35 13 competency of the CLAST or its alternative
10:35 14 through graduate cour-- or college level
10:35 15 courses, you, in essence, see a system set up
10:35 16 whereby a local school system could ultimately
10:35 17 issue licensure for a person who could then take
10:35 18 that teaching certificate --
10:35 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay.
10:35 20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and move from --
10:35 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's --
10:35 22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- district to
10:35 23 district.
10:35 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- that's saying that
10:35 25 the -- and I guess that was correct, that there
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
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10:35 1 was an alternative method of the peer review
10:35 2 that could have disregarded B or C, and
10:35 3 disregarded residency, and still -- is that
10:35 4 right?
10:35 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir. But that
10:35 6 was never a recommendation from my office or
10:35 7 the -- or the --
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I'm --
10:35 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- Standards
10:35 10 Commission.
10:35 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- I'm trying to get it
10:35 12 clear.
10:35 13 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: That was not a
10:35 14 recommendation from the --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
10:35 16 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: -- Standards
10:35 17 Commission.
10:35 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- are you saying that
10:36 19 you object to having a -- you get a C. Or you
10:36 20 have not done your work in the last X number of
10:36 21 years.
10:36 22 Do you object to a peer review being able
10:36 23 to say, well, even if you got a C, we still
10:36 24 think you're competent to test?
10:36 25 That's not a statewide certification.
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February 13, 1996
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10:36 1 They've had to do the C, they've had to take the
10:36 2 test. But there is this stopgap that the
10:36 3 Commissioner's talking about that you would
10:36 4 allow some -- you know, somebody look at, is
10:36 5 this a daggum good teacher, are they doing good
10:36 6 work? You know, whether they test out or
10:36 7 anything else, what is the fruit of their work.
10:36 8 I think a lot of us want to see that,
10:36 9 because I think a lot of us have had teachers
10:36 10 that, you know, if you looked at their formal
10:36 11 scores or anything else, didn't score so high,
10:36 12 but they had a way with kids, they motivated
10:36 13 kids, and they taught kids. And, you know,
10:36 14 I think we're all for that.
10:36 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, I understand.
10:36 16 And as I say, incorporated in this rule is an
10:37 17 and situation, college credit and peer review.
10:37 18 We've not put forward --
10:37 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: But --
10:37 20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- an or situation,
10:37 21 which is just a peer review.
10:37 22 In that event, in my opinion, with all due
10:37 23 respect, you might as well eliminate the
10:37 24 standard. There's no sense in having --
10:37 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: But that's -- my question
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10:37 1 is: Will you --
10:37 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
10:37 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- object to have -- if
10:37 4 you get a C rather than a B, there could be a
10:37 5 peer review to decide that you're still a good
10:37 6 teacher.
10:37 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's included in
10:37 8 the rules. But not as a stand-alone part of the
10:37 9 rule. That's incorporated with the college
10:37 10 course work and the grade B.
10:37 11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, let me --
10:37 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: But with a B.
10:37 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Right.
10:37 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: You've got to have a B.
10:37 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
10:37 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: You're not allowing that
10:37 17 to be done with a C.
10:37 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's correct.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
10:37 20 Or allowing that to be done with a short --
10:37 21 with a residency requirement. It might go
10:37 22 two months over, or something else.
10:37 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
10:37 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
10:37 25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, if I
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10:37 1 could, there's a --
10:37 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
10:37 3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- I wanted to -- I
10:37 4 could see -- let me make this suggestion,
10:37 5 that -- because I kind of -- I agree with --
10:38 6 I think I agree with the -- we need more of a --
10:38 7 some subjective evaluation here that would be a
10:38 8 force, but yet you might need a statewide
10:38 9 standard for even that subjectivity, would be
10:38 10 for the -- if the -- if the applicant -- the
10:38 11 teacher did not make the B, but had the C, but
10:38 12 also had a strong peer review recommendation,
10:38 13 that the Commissioner then could waive the B
10:38 14 based on his evaluation of the -- of the peer
10:38 15 evaluation itself.
10:38 16 So you'd then have the ability to have some
10:38 17 subjectivity, but it'd be on a -- on a statewide
10:38 18 basis.
19 Just to make --
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Would the
10:38 21 Commissioner make the --
10:38 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Have the
10:38 23 Commissioner -- give the Commissioner the
10:38 24 authority to waive the B, if all the other
10:38 25 evidence is compelling that it's a good teacher,
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10:38 1 even though they only made a C.
10:38 2 That's a thought.
10:38 3 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
10:38 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
10:38 5 TREASURER NELSON: -- may I just say --
10:39 6 you know, I may as well just give you the
10:39 7 reasoning. I mean, you never want to be cast in
10:39 8 the posture where you're saying you want lower
10:39 9 standards.
10:39 10 But what are we talking about? You know, I
10:39 11 remember when I was at Melbourne High School,
10:39 12 they offered -- because the principal had to
10:39 13 bend all the rules in order to get a qualified
10:39 14 teacher that was a medical missionary from
10:39 15 China, and they taught Chinese, one of the first
10:39 16 times a Florida high school had ever taught --
10:39 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Did he make a B?
10:39 18 TREASURER NELSON: That's -- that's the
10:39 19 point.
10:39 20 If that teacher had had -- he was a medical
10:39 21 missionary. If he had had to pass a CLAST test
10:39 22 and, say, he didn't have a gift in math, and he
10:39 23 would have had to have gotten a B, and that
10:39 24 required training within 60 months, I mean, we
10:39 25 can just tie ourselves up in minutia here.
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10:39 1 We've got to have some common sense in this
10:39 2 thing.
10:40 3 Take, for example, teachers transferring
10:40 4 into this state. We bring a lot of teachers in
10:40 5 here that have Master's degrees, but they hadn't
10:40 6 taken a math course in the last 10 to 20 years.
10:40 7 Well, you know, what -- what are -- what
10:40 8 are we going to put them in, in a kind of
10:40 9 straightjacket?
10:40 10 So that's where I'm trying to get some
10:40 11 flexibility in the rule.
10:40 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, what I'm really
10:40 13 worried about is the retired generals and
10:40 14 admirals that we have that are going to want to
10:40 15 teach.
10:40 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Never could do math.
10:40 17 But I -- I like the sense of what
10:40 18 Commissioner Crawford is proposing in that it
10:40 19 does provide some flexibility.
10:40 20 I'm a little hesitant about elevating the
10:40 21 ultimate decision to the highest level. I think
10:40 22 we ought to be pushing decision making down, not
10:40 23 elevating. But the sense of what
10:40 24 Commissioner Crawford has suggested I think is
10:40 25 kind of on target.
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10:41 1 And if -- if he could put that in the form
10:41 2 of a motion, I think we ought to address that.
10:41 3 We haven't I guess handled, Governor, the
10:41 4 proposal by Commissioner Nelson. But
10:41 5 Commissioner Crawford's suggestion I think is a
10:41 6 good one.
10:41 7 TREASURER NELSON: Well, do you want me to
10:41 8 amend my amendment?
10:41 9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Could you do that,
10:41 10 sir?
10:41 11 TREASURER NELSON: And, Bob, would you
10:41 12 state the essence -- you want some kind of peer
10:41 13 review that would look if a B is not achieved,
10:41 14 that there would be enough waiver.
10:41 15 And would you also have that peer review
10:41 16 look at the recency requirement as well?
10:41 17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think both. And
10:41 18 then make a recommendation to the Commissioner,
10:41 19 at which point the Commissioner then, on his
10:41 20 own, an even more far-reaching evaluation, could
10:41 21 evaluate the entire scope of the teacher's
10:41 22 performance and abilities.
10:41 23 And then based upon his -- his own
10:41 24 evaluation -- his or her own evaluation, could
10:41 25 then waive those two components if it was being
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10:42 1 warranted under the circumstances.
10:42 2 That way you have -- you don't have the
10:42 3 problem of just all of a sudden we've lost a
10:42 4 great teacher because they couldn't get that B,
10:42 5 or you have the recency problem that it's just
10:42 6 a -- and yet -- yet we do keep it a statewide
10:42 7 standard so that it's fair to all different --
10:42 8 all districts.
10:42 9 So --
10:42 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. I think the intent
10:42 11 of the amendment would be that the rule would
10:42 12 say that you need a B, you need the six months,
10:42 13 but would include as part of the peer review
10:42 14 that you could seek to take that to the peer
10:42 15 review group. And if they recommended that they
10:42 16 still be certified, that would have to be
10:42 17 approved by the Commissioner.
10:42 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
10:42 19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's right.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- could I --
10:42 21 in fact, I'm not trying to help you all with
10:42 22 your amendment, because I disagree with it.
10:42 23 But I -- at the risk of making this more
10:42 24 complicated than it really is, let me offer a
10:42 25 potential solution to you.
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10:43 1 The rule that we've recommended today, as
10:43 2 you've suggested, Governor, has an alternative
10:43 3 to the CLAST that exists within it that would
10:43 4 require college credit plus a peer review. That
10:43 5 would then be forwarded to the
10:43 6 State of Florida.
10:43 7 And ultimately I have to, as Commissioner
10:43 8 of Education, on these cases determine whether
10:43 9 my signature goes on that teaching certificate
10:43 10 or not, based on the recommendation of the
10:43 11 people at the local level.
10:43 12 It would appear to me that just by
10:43 13 change -- or amending the rule that we've
10:43 14 brought to you today, you could accomplish what
10:43 15 it is I think you're trying to do with some very
10:43 16 simple wordsmithing of the rule that we brought
10:43 17 to you today.
10:43 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think --
10:43 19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
10:43 20 MR. BEDFORD: That's what we're doing.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- what we're told --
22 that's what -- we were --
23 MR. BEDFORD: That's what we're --
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- talking about amending
10:43 25 the rule brought to us today by those simple
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10:43 1 words.
10:43 2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I think all
10:43 3 you have to do is change an and to an or.
10:43 4 I think there's one --
10:43 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Because the Commissioner
10:44 6 already has the chance to --
10:44 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: In other words --
10:44 8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Correct.
10:44 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- make it college
10:44 10 course work or peer review --
10:44 11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Correct.
10:44 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- or to the
10:44 13 Commissioner of Education.
10:44 14 Now, that's assuming, Secretary, that the
10:44 15 members agree that the alternative should still
10:44 16 be a B instead of a C --
10:44 17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Correct.
10:44 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and five years
10:44 19 recency.
10:44 20 But based on what you're about to do,
10:44 21 that's of little or no consequence, in my
10:44 22 opinion, at this point.
10:44 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, but aren't we
10:44 24 talking about the ultimate decision by you would
10:44 25 be based on whether it was a B or a C, more than
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10:44 1 the residency or not.
10:44 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That if you made --
10:44 3 or they could use either -- either the B and the
10:44 4 five-year recency; unless you want to amend that
10:44 5 and make it a C, and no recency; or the peer
10:44 6 review.
10:44 7 MR. BEDFORD: My -- my problem --
10:44 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's at your
10:44 9 discretion.
10:44 10 MR. BEDFORD: -- that I wanted to make sure
10:44 11 we understand is if you insert the word or, then
10:44 12 you no longer need this peer review.
10:45 13 And if you insert the word or, you would be
10:45 14 bypassing -- I think one of the parts I heard
10:45 15 from just about everybody was you wanted the
10:45 16 peer review to be the one that was making the
10:45 17 recommendation --
10:45 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: You know, it would seem
10:45 19 to me that if the votes are here, that somebody
10:45 20 could sit down and draft this thing to say that
10:45 21 if you had a -- you know, if it was either --
10:45 22 either of the C or the residency -- peer review
10:45 23 wanted to recommend it to the Commissioner, the
10:45 24 Commissioner could then sign it if he wanted
10:45 25 to.
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10:45 1 Or you've got --
10:45 2 MR. BEDFORD: I hesitate to ever try to do
10:45 3 this publicly, because you can only lose.
10:45 4 But it seems to me that what I'm hearing
10:45 5 some of you say is that there would be a (C)
10:45 6 section; the (A) section being what it is, the
10:45 7 peer review; (B) section being the grade of B;
10:45 8 and a (C) section in absence of the grade of B,
10:45 9 or the recency of credit requirement, the peer
10:45 10 review would be allowed to recommend
10:45 11 certification to the --
10:45 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
10:45 13 MR. BEDFORD: -- to the Commissioner.
10:45 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: You've got it.
10:45 15 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I'd like to
10:46 16 get Charlotte's comment on this proposed
10:46 17 so-called compromise.
10:46 18 You're the one who came forward with the
10:46 19 recommendations.
10:46 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think that goes
10:46 21 back to --
10:46 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It goes back to
10:46 23 that direction.
10:46 24 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: I believe it does go
10:46 25 in the direction. The Commission did include a
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10:46 1 peer review, along with a grade, and then they
10:46 2 would -- they did not have the recency credit.
10:46 3 The peer review would be looking at the
10:46 4 demonstration of those competencies that they
10:46 5 did not pass in the CLAST test. So they would
10:46 6 be looking at the demonstration of the math, or
10:46 7 the communication, whether it be writing or
10:46 8 reading.
10:46 9 So I believe a peer review would be
10:46 10 essential to looking at the application of these
10:46 11 skills in the real world setting.
10:46 12 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask a question,
10:46 13 Governor?
10:47 14 Under the -- under the Department of
10:47 15 Education's proposed rule, if -- if a history
10:47 16 teacher that has come into the state with a
10:47 17 Master's degree that has a tremendous record as
10:47 18 a classroom teacher, fails, for example, the
10:47 19 math part of the CLAST test, under the
10:47 20 Department of Education's proposed rule, they
10:47 21 have to have a B in that course in order to be
10:47 22 certified, and that course has to have been done
10:47 23 within the last 60 months; is that correct?
10:47 24 MS. MINNICK BOROTO: That is correct. For
10:47 25 that teacher though, there is another option.
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10:47 1 There is something called the Fast Track program
10:47 2 in the state of Florida.
10:47 3 And if that teacher is certified in the
10:47 4 same area in Florida that they come from Texas,
10:47 5 Florida has the same certification area, and
10:47 6 they have demonstrated satisfactory performance
10:48 7 in their teaching in that state within the last
10:48 8 five years, then there -- the superintendent
10:48 9 from San Antonio, Texas, can sign off, and, say,
10:48 10 yes, they've demonstrated this performance, and
10:48 11 they then do not take any of the tests that are
10:48 12 required of the state of Florida.
10:48 13 So that person might fit into a category
10:48 14 where they don't take it at all. There's a
10:48 15 waiver.
10:48 16 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, we're going to
10:48 17 get ourselves so tied up in so many rigmarole,
10:48 18 putting ourselves in a straightjacket, what does
10:48 19 the math test have to do with a great history
10:48 20 teacher?
10:48 21 Let's move forward with some common sense.
10:48 22 I move my amendment to the rule.
10:48 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now --
10:48 24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Which one?
10:48 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- is that your
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10:48 1 amendment, or is that --
10:48 2 TREASURER NELSON: My original amendment.
10:48 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. So many as
10:48 4 favor the motion, signify by saying aye.
10:48 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could we have some
10:48 6 more discussion on that before --
10:48 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Sure. Sure.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Is there a second?
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there a second to
10:48 10 his amendment?
10:48 11 MR. BEDFORD: I need to --
10:48 12 What is the original amendment?
10:48 13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there a second to
10:49 14 his amendment?
10:49 15 MR. BEDFORD: No.
10:49 16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: The original
10:49 17 amendment?
10:49 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: There was not a second on
10:49 19 the original amendment?
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. There
10:49 21 was no second on --
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I mean, I --
10:49 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- Brogan's
24 amendment.
10:49 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Just for a --
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: There was no second
10:49 2 on my original amendment.
10:49 3 Yes, there was. Secretary of State
10:49 4 seconded --
10:49 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: There was a second.
10:49 6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: To the original motion.
10:49 7 MR. BEDFORD: To the original motion. But
10:49 8 not to the amendment.
10:49 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: My -- my motion.
10:49 10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: To permit -- yes.
10:49 11 So what are we discussing at this moment,
10:49 12 that's my question.
10:49 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's what I --
10:49 14 that's what I'm about to try to do.
10:49 15 I think it's important that y'all are
10:49 16 abundantly clear on what it is that you're about
10:49 17 to do. Because there have been some
10:49 18 alternatives --
10:49 19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: But what are --
10:49 20 Governor, what are we --
10:49 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Which happens when
10:49 22 you create alternatives.
10:49 23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Which amendment?
10:49 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: We are discussing right
10:49 25 now whether Commissioner Nelson's amendment has
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10:49 1 a second.
10:49 2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: That's what I --
10:49 3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But I'd like to
10:49 4 offer an amendment to the amendment. That would
10:49 5 be what the Governor described.
10:49 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: You want to second it
10:49 7 first so it would be in order for the
10:50 8 amendment?
10:50 9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay. We'll get a
10:50 10 second.
10:50 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Now, it's in
10:50 12 order.
10:50 13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: All right. Well,
10:50 14 the amendment as was repeated to the amendment
10:50 15 with --
10:50 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: That would be a
10:50 17 substitute that you offer --
10:50 18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay. Well,
10:50 19 that -- substitute to the amendment.
10:50 20 And I think --
10:50 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Does everybody
10:50 22 understand where we are at this point?
10:50 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there
10:50 24 discussion on the substitute?
10:50 25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
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10:50 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
10:50 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Very quickly.
10:50 3 I just want everyone to understand that
10:50 4 while it appears as though the Department is
10:50 5 possibly being tougher than we ought to be,
10:50 6 I think we need to be clear on this.
10:50 7 And I agree with Commissioner Nelson, we
10:50 8 need some common sense on this issue.
10:50 9 What we're talking about is something that
10:50 10 the vast majority of states require, a test or
10:50 11 some demonstration of a skill level, in this
10:50 12 particular case, at a tenth grade high school
10:51 13 level in reading, writing, and mathematics.
10:51 14 A teacher comes to Florida, who begins to
10:51 15 teach, can start on a temporary teaching
10:51 16 certificate for a two-year period of time. And
10:51 17 during that two-year period of time, have the
10:51 18 ability to take a variety of approaches to how
10:51 19 they want to demonstrate that mastery of their
10:51 20 ability to read and write and calculate
10:51 21 mathematically at a tenth grade high school
10:51 22 level.
10:51 23 In my opinion, by creating -- just to set
10:51 24 aside an alternative that suggests that only a
10:51 25 peer review would be necessary after multiple
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10:51 1 failures of one test; multiple failures of
10:51 2 another; the inability to demonstrate competency
10:51 3 through using minimum college course work in an
10:51 4 area and demonstrate competency through a B, in
10:51 5 my opinion, what we are doing is providing a
10:51 6 difficult circumstance where people out there in
10:51 7 the local level who now have to look at someone
10:51 8 after a two-year period of time, and that person
10:51 9 having failed every other avenue, give that
10:51 10 person -- or request that that person be given
10:52 11 licensure, and still not able to demonstrate, in
10:52 12 my opinion, as did 70,000 other people since
10:52 13 that test was first administered in 1984, a
10:52 14 clear ability to read, write, and count to the
10:52 15 tenth grade high school level.
10:52 16 The reason that we stayed away from a set
10:52 17 aside alternative was because we believe that
10:52 18 there is ample opportunity during that two-year
10:52 19 period of time for someone to take and pass the
10:52 20 college courses, for someone to take a
10:52 21 remediation course if that determines that
10:52 22 they -- that would help the situation.
10:52 23 But, again, what -- what -- the reason that
10:52 24 I've brought to you what I've brought to you is
10:52 25 not in an attempt to be obstinate, and it is not
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10:52 1 an attempt to create a higher standard for a
10:52 2 very small number of individuals.
10:52 3 It's in an attempt to try to recognize that
10:52 4 70,000 people have complied with that
10:52 5 prerequisite to demonstrate that they can read
10:52 6 and write and calculate mathematically at a
10:53 7 tenth grade high school level.
10:53 8 And I simply believe, Commissioner Nelson,
10:53 9 that whether you're teaching history, whether
10:53 10 you're teaching social studies, whether you're
10:53 11 teaching art, that you ought to be able to read
12 and write and calculate mathematically if you
10:53 13 want to be a professional educator at at least
10:53 14 the minimum level that we expect of our
10:53 15 high school students.
10:53 16 And I think, as you heard me say at the
10:53 17 last meeting, one of our problems in education
10:53 18 is we are pigeonholing people to death. We are
10:53 19 creating people who are so specialized in only
10:53 20 one area, that we're not writing across the
10:53 21 curriculum, we are not reading across the
10:53 22 curriculum, and we are not calculating
23 mathematically across the curriculum.
10:53 24 And, in part, it's because I believe that
10:53 25 we only teach math in math class because that's
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10:53 1 what that person is required to do; teach
10:53 2 reading in reading class, because that's what
10:53 3 that person is supposed to do.
10:53 4 And I think we need to make certain that
10:53 5 all professional educators hold the same
10:53 6 proficiency level in reading, writing, and math
10:53 7 we would expect of a tenth grade high school
10:54 8 student, to see to it that they can offer that
9 kind of information.
10:54 10 So with that, I now understand the
10:54 11 amendment, and appreciate the clarification.
10:54 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
10:54 13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
10:54 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
10:54 15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I'm not sure I know
10:54 16 what the amendment is. So if -- if --
10:54 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Why don't you restate --
10:54 18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- Mr. Crawford would
10:54 19 state --
10:54 20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yes.
10:54 21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- the substitute.
10:54 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: We'll ask -- if you could
10:54 23 restate.
10:54 24 MR. BEDFORD: I think what I paraphrased
10:54 25 for you, that there would be a subsection (C) on
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10:54 1 page 6, if you have the same that I do, that
10:54 2 there would be an (A) where the applicant would
10:54 3 have the peer review; there would be a (B) where
10:54 4 the applicant demonstrated with a B average; and
10:54 5 then a (C) where there would be in cases in
10:54 6 absence of the C grade -- excuse me -- absence
10:54 7 of the B grade or absence of the recency of
10:54 8 credit, a peer review could recommend to the
10:54 9 State Commissioner of Education that the person
10:54 10 be certified.
10:54 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Still reside with --
10:54 12 MR. BEDFORD: Is that what --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- the Commissioner of
10:54 14 Education.
10:54 15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's correct.
10:54 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. I think we
10:54 17 understand it now.
10:55 18 Let's call the role on the substitute
10:55 19 amendment.
10:55 20 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
21 Commissioner Brogan.
10:55 22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No.
23 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
10:55 24 Commissioner Crawford.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yes.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
February 13, 1996
43
1 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
2 Commissioner Nelson.
3 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
4 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
5 Comptroller Milligan.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
7 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
8 General Butterworth.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes.
10 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Secretary Mortham.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
12 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Governor Chiles.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
14 All right. By your votes, you've adopted
15 the substitute amendment.
16 Now, let's vote on the rule as amended.
17 So many as favor that, signify by saying
18 aye.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Aye.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Aye.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Aye.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: The rule amendment is
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1 adopted.
2 MR. BEDFORD: Item 3, rule 6A, dash,
3 6.0311, Amendment, Eligible Special Programs for
4 Exceptional Students.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval,
6 Governor.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. BEDFORD: Item 4, appointment to
11 Hillsborough Community College Board of
12 Trustees.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
15 Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
19 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
20 concluded.)
21 *
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
February 13, 1996
45
10:55 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Administrative
2 Commission -- Administration Commission.
10:56 3 MS. SITTIG: Item 1, recommend approval of
10:56 4 the minutes of the meeting held January 23rd,
5 1996.
6 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
7 room.)
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MS. SITTIG: Recommend the transfer of
14 general revenue appropriations in the
15 Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MS. SITTIG: Item 3 has been deferred until
21 the next meeting.
22 Item 4, recommend a transfer of general
23 revenue appropriations in the Department of
24 Health and Rehabilitative Services.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
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February 13, 1996
46
1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MS. SITTIG: Item 5, recommend the transfer
6 of general revenue appropriations in the
7 Department of Juvenile Justice.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, that's approved.
12 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
13 concluded.)
14 *
15
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
February 13, 1996
47
1 MS. SITTIG: We're now on the FLAWAC.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Florida Land
3 and Water Adjudicatory Commission.
4 MS. SITTIG: There's one item. Request the
5 authorization to enter the amended draft final
6 order.
7 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
8 MS. SITTIG: We have a few individuals that
9 would like to speak.
10 The first one is Edward de la Parte
11 representing Pinellas County.
12 MR. de la PARTE: Governor, members of the
13 Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory Commission.
14 I appreciate the opportunity to appear before
15 you on this matter.
16 My name is Edward de la Parte, and I
17 represent the appellant, Pinellas County,
18 Florida.
19 Simply put, Governor, and members --
20 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
21 room.)
22 MR. de la PARTE: -- of the Commission, we
23 urge you to adopt the proposed final order
24 developed by your staff.
25 I have here today with us the Chairman of
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February 13, 1996
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1 the Pinellas County Commission, Sallie Parks,
2 who, with your indulgence, would like to address
3 a few remarks to the Commission.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Very well. Ms. Parks.
5 MS. PARKS: Good morning.
6 Good morning, Governor Chiles, members of
7 the Florida Cabinet.
8 I'm Sallie Parks, Chair of the
9 Pinellas County Commission. And I'm happy to be
10 here to speak about the most important issue in
11 Pinellas County and the entire Tampa Bay area of
12 water.
13 Within the 16-county Southwest Florida
14 Water Management District, there is an average
15 of 53 inches of rainfall each year. The total
16 water use for public supply in all of the
17 District is less than 1 inch.
18 As you know, Florida receives a great
19 amount of rainfall, second only to Louisiana,
20 among the states. This evidence, once again,
21 illustrates that Florida in many ways is water
22 rich.
23 With that said, Pinellas County takes pride
24 in its citizens' conservation of water.
25 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
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1 MS. PARKS: As County government, we
2 deserve credit for this careful conservation,
3 our most significant commodity, providing high
4 quality water to the residents of the most
5 densely populated county in the state, with
6 nearly 1 million residents.
7 We are proud of our citizens' efforts to
8 conserve and only use 116 gallons per day, as
9 compared to the more typical 150 gallons per day
10 average in Florida.
11 We have reached this level in
12 Pinellas County by carefully utilizing our water
13 resource allocation.
14 Our conservation measures include a major
15 indoor plumbing retrofit program in which almost
16 200,000 water saving kits were distributed to
17 homes, enforcement of lawn --
18 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
19 MS. PARKS: -- irrigation restrictions,
20 promotion of drought tolerant landscaping
21 principles, and numerous public educational
22 programs and proactive conservation programs.
23 Pinellas County also adopted a rate
24 schedule which encourages water conservation by
25 increasing the cost of water as consumptive
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1 needs exceeds an average amount.
2 We also have been pioneers in wastewater
3 recycling over and beyond the efforts of the
4 cities in our county. And we've committed
5 150 million dollars to that.
6 The City of St. Petersburg and
7 Pinellas County citizens receive all its potable
8 water from well fields in the northern Tampa Bay
9 area, in Pinellas County, Pasco, and
10 Hillsborough.
11 Overall, our conservation programs and
12 wastewater reuse programs have achieved the
13 remarkable lowest per capita use in this state.
14 Pinellas County's Comprehensive Plan adopts
15 a level of service standard, and a concurrency
16 which ties developments to the committed
17 capacity of its well fields so that growth will
18 never exceed its permitted use.
19 In a county that is essentially built out,
20 we will only require an additional 10 to
21 15 million gallons per day to meet the needs of
22 our residents by the year 2015.
23 The Southwest Florida Water Management
24 District has not established a minimum level in
25 the northern Tampa Bay area where
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1 Pinellas County's well fields are located.
2 Experts could argue with reasonable data as
3 to how much water can be withdrawn from the
4 region without significant harm to the water
5 resource.
6 Pinellas County is grateful and
7 appreciative that by proposing the final order,
8 the Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
9 Commission recognizes and acknowledges the
10 reasonable requests made by Pinellas County.
11 We also commend SWFWMD for their
12 willingness to submit to a schedule with
13 specific due dates for establishing minimum
14 levels and flows to the Department of
15 Environmental Protection for approval as part of
16 its district water management plan.
17 While Pinellas County supports water
18 conservation as integral to all water supply
19 plans, and believes that research and
20 development in the areas of alternative supplies
21 offer tremendous promise and opportunity for the
22 future, water is still a regional resource.
23 Artificial or politically defined
24 boundaries should not limit the options
25 available for consideration in planning future
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1 water supplies.
2 Therefore, we believe that although the
3 proposed final order does not directly specify
4 what type of minimum levels SWFWMD will
5 establish, Pinellas County advocates that only
6 regional minimum levels should be approved by
7 the Department of Environmental Protection.
8 Although the proposed final order does not
9 direct -- directly specify what procedures
10 SWFWMD will follow in establishing minimum
11 levels, Pinellas County hopes that the procedure
12 approved by the DEP will call for an independent
13 expert panel to resolve scientific disputes
14 encountered in establishing such minimum levels.
15 If SWFWMD can -- commits to establishing
16 independent scientific peer review for regional
17 minimum level in the northern Tampa Bay area
18 prior to cutting back the permitted capacity of
19 any of Pinellas County's well fields, you can be
20 confident that Pinellas County will dismiss all
21 of its pending permitted regulated litigation.
22 We in Pinellas County do not enjoy
23 participating in litigation which impacts not
24 only our own taxpayers, but all of us who also
25 pay taxes to SWFWMD.
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1 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
2 MS. PARKS: We are committed to a
3 scientific peer review process.
4 Again, let me repeat: If SWFWMD will
5 establish an independent peer review for
6 regional minimum levels in the northern
7 Tampa Bay area before reducing our permitted
8 capacity, we will dismiss all of its permitted
9 related litigation.
10 I will be happy to entertain any questions
11 for me, or for Mr. de la Parte.
12 If not, thank you very much for the
13 opportunity to appear before you.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you very much.
15 MS. PARKS: Thank you, Governor.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Seconded.
22 Without objection, it is adopted.
23 MS. SITTIG: That's it.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
25
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1 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
2 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
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February 13, 1996
55
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Trustees of the Internal
2 Improvement.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Good morning.
4 Item 1 are minutes.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, minutes are approved.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Item 2 is a quitclaim deed.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 MS. WETHERELL: Item 3 is a surplus land
15 sale.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, that's passed.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Second substitute item 4 is
21 an option agreement for Lake Wales Ridge CARL
22 project.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MS. WETHERELL: Item 5 is release of funds
3 for an undivided 50 percent interest in
4 Sebastian Creek CARL project.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 6, we're
10 recommending acceptance of the '96 CARL annual
11 report and approval of the '96 CARL annual
12 priority list.
13 We have Greg Brock here from the Department
14 if you wish to get into any specifics of the
15 program of this report and of the priority list.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Don't seem to be.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move
18 acceptance and approval.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: May I ask a question?
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Could you tell me,
25 having finished your public hearings around the
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1 state on the policy issue of the eminent domain,
2 when you plan to come back to us with that?
3 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, Secretary Mortham.
4 We are looking at bringing this item
5 back -- this policy back in March --
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
7 MS. WETHERELL: -- for your approval.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
10 Item 7 is modification of a submerged land
11 lease.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Item 8, requesting deferral
17 till March 13th at the applicant's request.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Need a motion,
19 Governor?
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
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1 MS. WETHERELL: Item 9 is a submerged land
2 lease for a proposed public fishing pier.
3 We have a total of twelve speakers. And if
4 you would like to set a time limit,
5 Mr. Chairman.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: I would. Love to.
7 MS. WETHERELL: We also have a number of
8 speakers on the next item. So --
9 Would you like to suggest a time?
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: I'd -- how many do we
11 have on each side?
12 MS. WETHERELL: Well, we have seven in
13 opposition, and five to speak in support --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Why don't we
15 say we'll set 20 minutes to the side.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Twenty minutes to the
17 side?
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
19 MS. WETHERELL: All right. And I'll ask
20 somebody to keep time for me. And we will --
21 All right. If those will remember that if
22 they speak a long time, they will eliminate
23 somebody on -- in their position.
24 So I'll start first with Dr. Michael Salmon
25 or Salomon, to come forward first.
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1 And to save time, in this order,
2 Cecilia Wolf, and Dave Homcy after that.
3 MS. HOMCY: Hi. We're having a little
4 change in order here. I was originally going to
5 speak to you all first.
6 My name is Jennifer Homcy, and I am here to
7 speak in opposition to the Juno Beach Pier
8 because of sea turtle nesting concerns, and
9 other related problems that might be caused from
10 the construction of a fishing pier in this
11 sensitive area.
12 I grew up in Palm Beach County. I am a
13 native resident. And I grew up in the old -- on
14 the old Juno Beach Pier.
15 And in addition, I am a former employee of
16 the Palm Beach County DERM and the Marine Life
17 Center of Juno Beach, and have a great deal of
18 sea turtle experience, especially in that area.
19 I want to acknowledge the significance of
20 this nesting beach in this area. It is stated
21 in the Federal Recovery Plan for four different
22 species of turtles, that all measures should be
23 taken to ensure a higher rate of hatch success
24 on all federal and state owned lands in key
25 nesting beaches, such as Jupiter Island,
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1 Hutchinson Island, Juno Beach, and
2 Melbourne Beach, Florida.
3 Though those areas are a very small area,
4 it has great significance in that it has over
5 1,000 nests per mile. And the impact that a
6 fishing pier would cause to this area are a
7 degree of magnitude higher than if it were to be
8 placed anywhere further south than this.
9 There are many different issues, including
10 possibility of hatchling mortality, and marine
11 debris poses a significant problem in terms
12 of -- in terms of hook ingestion and
13 monofilament entanglement and snaggings.
14 A lot of these issues have been addressed
15 by the DEP, and special conditions were
16 recommended. But we feel that the recommended
17 conditions of DEP, though they will do a lot to
18 protect sea turtles if a pier were to go in,
19 that we cannot afford to take the risk of
20 putting in a structure like this when the
21 environmental damage can be incredible --
22 astronomical actually in that we -- we just --
23 this area is so important to the reproductive
24 success of three different species of turtles,
25 we just cannot afford to take the risk of the
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1 damages.
2 We can't afford to take the risk of the
3 possibility of the restrictions being lessened
4 and reduced in time. The County is to enforce
5 themselves on this issue.
6 Though I have confidence in the Department
7 of Environmental Resource Management in their
8 abilities to enforce letting situations, I do
9 not have confidence that this will be handled in
10 a responsible manner because of the role that
11 economics is going to play in this.
12 And last, but not least, I definitely
13 wanted to acknowledge the fact -- and this is a
14 letter -- and I'd like to submit to the Board --
15 from Blair Witherington, who is a lighting
16 expert from DEP Tequesta Field Office.
17 And he confirmed in this letter that that
18 beach is relatively dark, and that there are no
19 existing lighting problems and disorientation
20 problems, and it is one of the darkest stretches
21 of beaches in Palm Beach County.
22 And that this -- and I quote: This could
23 explain why the beach there is so popular with
24 the turtles.
25 So if I can submit that.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Fine.
2 MS. HOMCY: And I just ask you all to vote
3 no on this lease. I -- I really feel strongly
4 about this, that the effects to marine turtles
5 are going to be irreversible, and once we go
6 back -- once we go and take that step, there's
7 no going back.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
9 MS. WETHERELL: If the next two speakers I
10 called on will come forward, it will save time.
11 Oh, you're here. Excuse me.
12 Come on.
13 DR. SALMON: My name is
14 Dr. Michael Salmon. I'm a professor at Florida
15 Atlantic University. My specialty is animal
16 behavior, and I also study sea turtles, and have
17 been involved in sea turtle research for a
18 number of years.
19 I should also add that I'm an avid
20 fisherman.
21 I work extensively on problems and -- with
22 the City of Boca Raton, which have to do with
23 managing sea turtle populations at an urban
24 beach. And what we have been able to accomplish
25 there is to considerably improve the lot of --
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1 of these animals at an area where they come into
2 abrupt contact with -- with cities, with people,
3 and with populations in general.
4 In spite of all the improvements that we've
5 made, and there have been a considerable number
6 of them, the fact remains that once you set in
7 place a situation where you've developed a beach
8 that's used as a rookery for these animals, it's
9 impossible to ever regain the kind of pristine
10 situation that exists on a natural beach.
11 We've improved the situation at Boca Raton
12 to the point where now nesting densities and
13 survival of these animals is probably the
14 highest in the state for any urban beach area.
15 And so I have then certain very strong
16 feelings about the inevitability of -- and the
17 consequences of trying to improve the situation
18 once it's been tinkered with. You can't go
19 back.
20 The situation at Juno Beach is one where we
21 have a relatively pristine beach, which is one
22 of the four areas in -- on the east coast of
23 Florida where sea turtles nest in densities of
24 about 1,000 nests per mile.
25 What we need to do, of course, is come up
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1 with a balance which allows people who have
2 interests in fishing, and allows the turtles
3 that have interests in breeding, to coexist on
4 this beach.
5 It seems to me that from a rational
6 perspective, the interests of people who want to
7 fish has already been, to a large extent, taken
8 care of.
9 There's an expansion program which I
10 understand will probably be improved for
11 Jupiter Inlet, which will increase the size of
12 the platform; allow people to fish there, both
13 day and night; and, in general, see to the
14 wishes of those folks.
15 What we need now is to consider a balanced
16 approach which looks to the interest of sea
17 turtles, and looks to the interests of the local
18 residents in Juno Beach who are most interested
19 in preserving their -- the pristine nature of
20 that area.
21 Thank you.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can I ask --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question. Yes.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Are you
25 saying, Doctor, that we should not put any more
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1 piers anywhere, or just in this particular
2 location?
3 DR. SALMON: I'm saying that we shouldn't
4 put any piers at this particular location.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What
6 location would you suggest near this particular
7 location, if any?
8 DR. SALMON: Well, I'm not -- I'm not
9 familiar enough with the immediate area around
10 Juno Beach.
11 In thinking about this problem though, it
12 seems to me an ideal location for a pier of this
13 type would be at Delray Beach where you have A1A
14 already commercially developed, a large number
15 of restaurants, you have so many lights shining
16 on the beach, the turtles don't nest there.
17 Where the fishability is probably as good as it
18 is anywhere else on the coast.
19 Picking a site like that would cause no --
20 as far as I can tell -- environmental harm.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And how far
22 away in miles is that; do you know?
23 MR. SALMON: About 35 or 40 miles to the
24 south.
25 MS. WOLF: My name is Celia Wolf, and I'm
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1 an eighth grade student at the Benjamin School
2 in Palm Beach County.
3 I have lived in Juno Beach all my life and
4 have been involved with the sea turtles since I
5 was very young.
6 I was given my first real responsibility to
7 help the turtles when I was eight years old, and
8 would ride my bike down to the Center every
9 morning to write the new nesting turtles on the
10 beach blackboard.
11 Today I give talks to other school kids and
12 visitors at the Marine Life Center. I also help
13 with the turtle rehabilitation.
14 Over the years, I've learned a lot about
15 the problems that the sea turtles face, and have
16 become very dedicated to their survival. I feel
17 honored to be a part of a community that shares
18 its beach with these threatened and endangered
19 creatures that have lived there for many years.
20 We are very fortunate to have these species
21 living in our county and state. We should be
22 honored and privileged to be their guardians,
23 and I know that I am.
24 On behalf of the young people of
25 Palm Beach County, the State of Florida, and
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1 this planet, I just don't understand why they
2 would choose this last remaining pristine beach,
3 second only to Amani in the Indian Ocean for
4 loggerhead nesting.
5 We are charged with the responsibility to
6 manage and protect these resources. Why are we
7 willing to compromise their future existence?
8 My friends and I don't understand why.
9 The young people of this planet trust you
10 to make the right choice. Don't let them put
11 this pier on Juno Beach. Alternate sites exist
12 that would not impact the sea turtles as much.
13 Pier supporters just want a pier if you go
14 anywhere, so why put it where there is the
15 largest amount of turtles?
16 My friends and I think a pier would be fun,
17 too, but not at the expense of threatened and
18 endangered species.
19 Do those in support know that there is a
20 plan to close the pier for most of the year?
21 If you're concerned about the feelings of
22 the people of Florida on environmental issues,
23 please remember that in last year's net ban
24 referendum, nearly 72 percent of this state's
25 voters voted to ban the marine nets. This
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1 represents nearly 3 million votes. In
2 Palm Beach County, 84 percent of votes were yes
3 to ban nets.
4 The citizens of this state are obviously
5 overwhelmingly environmentally conscious and
6 concerned.
7 Maybe it would be best to put this issue
8 before the voters. I can tell you confidently
9 that the young people of Palm Beach County would
10 most definitely vote against putting a pier at
11 this location.
12 You have the power today as the guardians
13 of my future to leave a legacy that would make
14 the present and future citizens of this state
15 proud.
16 Please insist on an alternate site, or just
17 vote no. Please, please have the courage to
18 make the difference for our present, and my
19 future.
20 I also have some signatures to submit from
21 the faculty and students of the
22 Benjamin School. Mr. Kehl, the Headmaster, is
23 the first signature on the petition; and
24 Greg Norman's family also signed. And I
25 highlighted those signatures for you. There are
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1 a total of 78 signatures representing north
2 county families.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
4 MS. WETHERELL: I think we have about
5 9 minutes left, so I'll ask the remaining four
6 speakers to come on up. Evan Abrams,
7 Dave Homcy, David Godfrey, and Don Daniels,
8 please.
9 MR. HOMCY: Thanks.
10 My name is Dave Homcy. I have been a
11 teacher and a fisherman in Palm Beach County for
12 nearly 30 years. I've fished the beaches, the
13 jetties, and the back waters of
14 Palm Beach County during that time.
15 And my children grew up fishing on the
16 Juno Pier. They cut their teeth fishing on the
17 Juno Pier. David and Jenn love that place.
18 I've also witnessed in that 30-year period
19 the tremendous environmental and ecological
20 damage that has taken place with waterfront and
21 beachfront development.
22 I've become a good deal more enlightened
23 because I am a conservationist, and an
24 environmentalist, become a good deal more
25 enlightened about the potential effects of
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1 placing the -- the pier at a pristine location
2 like Juno Beach. It's the last stretch of beach
3 that is virtually untouched in Palm Beach
4 County. And the -- the nesting density there is
5 higher than in any other part of -- of the
6 state.
7 I like to fish. But I also recognize that
8 there are -- that there is a higher good to be
9 won here, and that all of the creatures in an
10 ecosystem are -- are affected by what happens to
11 any one of those.
12 I strongly advocate the -- that you vote
13 against the development of this pier in
14 Juno Beach, Jupiter.
15 Thank you.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
17 MR. DANIELS: My name is Don Daniels, I'm
18 an elected town council member of the town of
19 Jupiter.
20 Jupiter's a community of 30,000 residents.
21 We abut the proposed pier site. The site is
22 nestled in between the town of Juno Beach and
23 the town of Jupiter. It's a very natural beach
24 area.
25 On the turtle issue, I have brought a
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1 little turtle with me. I'm not allowed to
2 handle the real turtles because they are
3 federally endangered. And only certain people
4 are qualified to do that. So I thought I'd
5 bring one that I could handle.
6 The town of Jupiter is solidly against this
7 site. We are solidly for the fishermen. We
8 have a lot of fishermen in our community that
9 use our beach all the time.
10 They have an excellent fishing opportunity
11 that is available now at the inlet. It is now
12 being improved. That will extend 300 feet into
13 the ocean. There's plenty of parking.
14 We would like to see another pier in the
15 county if that's what the county desires, but
16 not at this site. This is the exact wrong
17 site.
18 This site was selected prior to any studies
19 being done on the -- on that site, or any other
20 area. And the studies have been retrofitted to
21 fit that site.
22 We do not wish to give man preference over
23 turtles. However, there is other sites nearby,
24 it's not 45 miles. There's other sites nearby
25 that man could easily use to fish.
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1 So we are definitely in opposition to this
2 pier as proposed, this pier site. The
3 conditions that are to be placed on the -- the
4 site by DEP --
5 The other chart, please.
6 -- would virtually make the pier
7 unfishable.
8 I think the fishermen are being sold a
9 long, tall fish story on this. As you can see,
10 the green part of the pie is the fishable time
11 that the pier would be able to be used.
12 I appreciate your time on this, and I
13 really would appreciate a total denial on this
14 site.
15 Thank you.
16 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask a --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 TREASURER NELSON: -- question?
19 Commissioner, since you're an elected
20 official of the City, earlier there was --
21 someone said that there ought to be an expansion
22 of the existing pier at the Jupiter Inlet.
23 Would you give us your comments about that.
24 MR. DANIELS: There is already a planned
25 extension. It is -- it will be constructed
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1 shortly at that site.
2 TREASURER NELSON: And that is not a
3 place -- an inlet is not a place where the
4 turtles nest?
5 MR. DANIELS: No, sir. Charts that we have
6 from Broward County -- in fact, this picture
7 that we have shows that wherever there's an
8 inlet or a pier -- and Broward County found this
9 out by studies -- that the fishing nesting is at
10 zero. I mean, zero. And we're talking very
11 pristine nesting areas here.
12 So the fishing platform planned at the
13 inlet will not impact the -- the turtle nesting.
14 TREASURER NELSON: And how far is that
15 Jupiter Inlet pier from the proposed Juno Beach
16 pier?
17 MR. DANIELS: It's approximately 2 miles.
18 And it's in the middle of our town of Jupiter.
19 And we endorse that fishing platform
20 100 percent, we always have. Jupiter Inlet is
21 the one that proposed it, and the town of
22 Jupiter is 100 percent behind it.
23 Thank you.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
25 MR. GODFREY: Good morning.
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1 My name is David Godfrey. I'm here on
2 behalf of the Caribbean Conservation Corporation
3 and the Sea Turtle Survival League, who asks you
4 to deny the submerged land lease requested.
5 CCC was founded over 35 years ago by the
6 late Dr. Archie Carr for the purpose of studying
7 and protecting marine turtles around the world.
8 One thing that three decades of research
9 have taught -- has taught us is that nesting
10 beaches with the densities like Juno Beach are
11 really becoming a rarity around the world.
12 And the gradual chipping away at these
13 important nesting sites is probably one of the
14 most serious threats to the long-term survival
15 of these species.
16 A new fishing pier located right in the
17 middle of this nesting site, even with some of
18 the -- the lease restrictions that have been
19 proposed, is still going to increase the level
20 of artificial lighting, it's going to increase
21 the volume of monofilament line and hooks that
22 are floating in the area, or on the bottom. And
23 it's also going to bring new development to this
24 pristine beach.
25 All of these additions can only bring harm
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1 to threatened and endangered turtles at a time
2 when we really should be trying to improve their
3 survival outlook.
4 I've heard the opposition to the pier
5 described by some as simply another case of the
6 NIMBY issue, or Not In My Backyard.
7 Well, I'm here on behalf of CCC and our
8 state and national membership to tell you that
9 this isn't just a local issue. Juno Beach
10 really is a world renowned nesting site that's
11 deserving of the highest level of protection
12 from the State of Florida. And any activity
13 proposed here must face the strictest level of
14 scrutiny.
15 The permit restrictions do attempt to
16 minimize impacts. But they can't completely
17 eliminate them.
18 We -- we're aware that these restrictions
19 can't be set in stone. And there would be
20 difficulties in enforcing them in the
21 long-term.
22 We can't even really guarantee that there's
23 going to be funding for the State's marine
24 turtle program next year. How are we going to
25 ensure that a decade from now we're -- or
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1 beyond, that the mechanisms are in place to
2 monitor and enforce any restrictions associated
3 with this pier.
4 I -- we do not stand in opposition to any
5 pier. We think this just happens to be the
6 poorest site.
7 I'm also aware of the proposed expansion at
8 Jupiter Inlet, and it would significantly
9 increase the fishability at that site, and think
10 it would have far less impacts on marine turtles
11 in the area.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
13 MR. GODFREY: Thank you.
14 MS. ABRAMS: Good morning, Governor,
15 members. My name is Evan Abrams, and I'm an
16 attorney working with opp-- with opposition to
17 the pier. Speak to you briefly.
18 If scientific logic doesn't stop the pier;
19 if an appeal to protect threatened and
20 endangered sea turtles doesn't stop the pier; if
21 economics doesn't stop the pier; the fact that
22 the Federal Endangered Species Act protects
23 these sea turtles, and this doesn't stop the
24 pier, then let me say that this may be the
25 beginning of the end for these endangered sea
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1 turtles.
2 But it shall also be the beginning of a
3 long, drawn out legal battle, because I promise
4 you, the opponents to the pier will be watching,
5 will be waiting, and will -- we'll hear about
6 those takes, and we will bring action under the
7 Endangered Species Act.
8 And it won't be the fishermen, and it won't
9 be the public, and it won't be the turtles that
10 benefit from the pier, it'll perhaps be the next
11 species to be added to the endangered species
12 list, the lawyers will benefit from the pier.
13 Thank you.
14 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes the speakers
15 in opposition.
16 I'll call on now the speakers in support.
17 The first one is Chester Brewer; the second one
18 would be Tom Twyford; and the third one,
19 Ted Forsgren.
20 MR. BREWER: Governor, members of the
21 Cabinet. Good morning. My name is
22 Chester Brewer.
23 I live in Palm Beach County, I've lived
24 there over 20 years. And my family lived in the
25 area where this pier is proposed for a number of
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1 years, they don't live there now.
2 I'm having a little trouble collecting my
3 thoughts. There are a whole group of us that
4 got on the bus last night at 10:00 o'clock and
5 drove straight through to be here with you this
6 morning. The folks are all seated over there.
7 The only common bond that we have is that
8 we are very interested in seeing a fishing pier
9 in the north county area of Palm Beach County.
10 We used to have a fishing pier.
11 This morning, what is before you is really
12 the last step in a process that began
13 eight years ago. And it was then that a group
14 of people, primarily it was some of the Lott
15 brothers got together, and it was thought that
16 it would be a wonderful idea, and it would be
17 great for the children in the north end of our
18 county if we could rebuild the pier that once
19 existed there.
20 The process started, and the process really
21 will come to a culmination, from what we
22 understand, today with your decision.
23 There's been a lot of talk as to whether or
24 not this is a Not In My Backyard issue. NIMBY.
25 And I've got to tell you that certainly it
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1 started out as one.
2 The people that have moved into the
3 condominiums in this area hooked onto the issue
4 with regard to turtles.
5 And before I go any further, let me tell
6 you that I am the local president, the
7 Palm Beach County President, of the Florida
8 Conservation Association. And there are people
9 here with me today who spent an awful lot of
10 time collecting signatures on petitions, and
11 raising funds for the net ban amendment. We
12 care about turtles. We care about them a lot.
13 And if we thought for one moment that there
14 was going to be a detrimental -- a true
15 detrimental effect with regard to sea turtles
16 nesting in this area, we would not be in front
17 of you here today asking that you please approve
18 the proposal that's put before you.
19 The -- I'll just tell you that when I was
20 in that area growing up and when the old
21 Juno Pier was there, the sea turtles nested in
22 and around the old pier. It's a true fact.
23 I'm not going to claim to be a scientist,
24 I'm not going to claim to know the things that a
25 doctorate -- someone with a doctorate would
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1 know, but I can tell you that that, in fact, is
2 true.
3 We appreciate your consideration of this
4 issue. I know that it is tough, because you've
5 got some qualified people on both sides with
6 very diametrically opposed opinions.
7 Thank you very much.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes. Question.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just a real
10 quick question, if I can, sir --
11 MR. BREWER: Yes, sir.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- since you
13 grew up in the area.
14 Can you advise me -- it's been a while
15 since I've driven up there -- as to the closest
16 maybe condominium to the proposed pier?
17 MR. BREWER: They surround it really. The
18 proposed pier -- the reason that this site has
19 been selected is there is a county park there.
20 That county park supplies the parking necessary
21 for this pier. You've got condominiums on both
22 sides, and you're going to have more of them.
23 It's an --
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: The pictures
25 here --
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1 MR. BREWER: -- unfortunate fact of life --
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- don't
3 show anything. Some pictures here don't show
4 any buildings at all. It shows this as being
5 basically a pristine beach with no buildings.
6 So --
7 MR. BREWER: They are there.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well,
9 that's -- that's why I asked you the question.
10 MR. BREWER: Yeah.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Because you
12 mentioned you grew up there in a house, and
13 there are no houses in the pictures. I mean --
14 MR. BREWER: Okay. When I grew up there,
15 the only thing that was up there was the old --
16 what's called the Juno Motel, which has been
17 since torn down.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What's there
19 in its place?
20 MR. BREWER: Scrub.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
22 MR. BREWER: Right now. But it's --
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's the
24 way it should be.
25 MR. TWYFORD: Good morning, Governor, and
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1 Cabinet members.
2 My name is Tom Twyford, and I represent
3 over 1300 members of the West Palm Beach Fishing
4 Club.
5 Governor, I believe you held an
6 environmental summit at our club a number of
7 years back, you and Lieutenant Governor
8 Buddy MacKay.
9 The West Palm Beach Fishing Club was
10 established in 1934, and we've always been,
11 since that time, a voice of recreational anglers
12 in the county.
13 And I know representatives from the County
14 are going to address the turtle issue, because
15 that probably is the most significant issue that
16 needs to be addressed regarding the Juno Beach
17 Pier, so I'm going to reserve their time to
18 address the turtle issue.
19 I will tell you though, that the fishermen
20 of Palm Beach County are aware of the
21 restrictions that will be imposed to this
22 proposed Juno Beach Pier. We've accepted those
23 restrictions, and I believe County staff and DEP
24 have come to an agreement that will work to
25 protect the turtles.
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1 I'd like to specifically talk about the
2 access issue, because access to the state's
3 marine resources in our county has slowly
4 declined. Little by little, every little bit of
5 access to public beaches, to public jetties is
6 slowly being taken away.
7 In fact, at one time, when there was a
8 population of less than 100,000 people in our
9 county, we supported three piers, three piers
10 serviced the community of Palm Beach County.
11 Now we're down to one, and we have almost
12 1 million people living in our county who have
13 no access. If you don't have a boat in
14 Palm Beach County, it's hard to catch fish.
15 The -- the issue of the extension of the
16 Jupiter Inlet as a substitute for a fishing pier
17 is not a substitute, let me tell you.
18 A jetty is not a fishing pier. And the
19 reason that you cannot compare the two is
20 because of the boat traffic at the inlets.
21 There are other sites where piers could be built
22 north and south, particularly south on
23 Singer Island, it's been suggested by the
24 opposition.
25 But one of the problems with that is that
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1 it's located so close to highly traveled
2 inlets. And when you put piers next to highly
3 traveled inlets, it creates considerable user
4 conflicts. "User conflicts" meaning boaters and
5 pier fishermen simply don't get along. It's a
6 time tested thing. Trust me.
7 Those conflicts really detract from the
8 function of a fishing pier.
9 We have had numerous studies in this state
10 about the importance of creating more
11 recreational opportunities for the people that
12 live here. It's why many of us live here.
13 And -- and at considerable taxpayers'
14 expense, I might say, that those studies are
15 being conducted. And yet we still are taking
16 away the access to the common person.
17 Let me tell you why the Juno Beach site is
18 best. You've heard why it isn't best. Let me
19 tell you why it is. Number one, the
20 infrastructure's already there. Juno Beach Park
21 already services and is considered an
22 underutilized park by County staff. The parking
23 is there, the dune crossover is there.
24 Yes, there is a dense turtle nesting
25 population. But they're used to be a Juno Beach
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1 Pier in that general vicinity, it never
2 prevented the turtles from nesting there in the
3 past.
4 There is no scientific data that indicates
5 that piers are a detriment to nesting sea
6 turtles. If there was, they would have
7 presented it to you. There isn't any.
8 Number two, it spreads out the piers that
9 we have, and it spreads out the access. We need
10 something in the north county area. Palm Beach
11 County geographically is a very large area. And
12 it's not close to the inlets, as I said.
13 Finally, for further justification of the
14 pier, my four year old son traveled up on that
15 bus last night. And let me tell you, that was a
16 grueling trip. But it's the kids.
17 Many of our community leaders grew up as
18 pier rats in this area, in Palm Beach County,
19 and it's important to the youth.
20 Finally, I'd just like you to make your
21 decision today based on the scientific data, and
22 what's in the best majority of the common people
23 in Palm Beach County, not on any political
24 persuasion by those who oppose the pier.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 MR. FORESGREN: Governor, and members of
2 the Cabinet, my name is Ted Foresgren with the
3 Florida Conservation Association, and I'm here
4 today on behalf of our State Board of
5 Directors.
6 And we're here to urge you to approve the
7 proposed lease. And we support the stringent
8 lease conditions that have been placed by staff
9 on the operation of the pier.
10 It's a controversial issue, it's not one
11 that we step forward and support lightly. It's
12 controversial for two reasons.
13 Number one, there is local objection. Many
14 of the adjacent residents are opposed to the
15 pier.
16 But I think that if you've -- the
17 Palm Beach Post, not once, but twice, has
18 editorialized in support of the pier in looking
19 at the different issues. And I think that
20 speaks very strongly in terms of local support.
21 The second reason is because there's a
22 conflict here between two public purposes. The
23 first is the very important long-term protection
24 and restoration of marine turtles in this state,
25 and in the world. And public agencies providing
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1 viable recreational opportunities for its
2 citizens.
3 We think that in this particular instance,
4 in terms of how it's been structured and put
5 together, that the interests of both can be
6 balanced.
7 Almost all of Palm Beach County in this
8 area and to the northeast has turtle nesting
9 beaches. And some are better than others, and
10 I'm not going to stand here and say one is or
11 one isn't. Because in the context of protecting
12 and restoring sea turtles, there is no such
13 thing as a beach that isn't important in terms
14 of turtle nesting.
15 But I think that the conditions that have
16 been placed are -- they're, without a doubt, the
17 most stringent conditions placed on any pier
18 anywhere in Florida.
19 Shutting down the lights right after dark;
20 moving people entirely off the pier; it's closed
21 down from March through October, the time that
22 the turtles would come ashore to nest.
23 A lot of other conditions in terms that the
24 County is there. And again, we urge that those
25 conditions remain a part of the lease so that
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1 it's there in terms of operation. We think that
2 that goes a very long way to being able to
3 balance the interest.
4 This site has been chosen after a long
5 discussion and looking at alternatives. And I
6 hope the County will talk of that.
7 But it appears to be the only real viable
8 site to have a fishing pier in this part of the
9 County.
10 It's been mentioned that one used to be
11 close to there in 1984, and it being blown down
12 by a storm is one of the reasons why so many
13 people have come forth trying to find a
14 replacement.
15 The pier will provide an opportunity for a
16 lot of people who don't have the ability to have
17 a boat or can't hire a fishing guide to be able
18 to go out and enjoy fishing.
19 I myself grew up on a fishing pier in
20 Tampa. That was my favorite thing to do every
21 summer. So I think you're going to see,
22 you know, young and old, everyone utilizing the
23 opportunity here.
24 We believe that recreational anglers, the
25 fishing pier, and nesting sea turtles can
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1 coexist in this area. That the lease with the
2 tough conditions that have been put on will
3 allow the County an opportunity to provide
4 quality recreational opportunity, and at the
5 same time, protect and enhance the long-term
6 goal of the recovery of all of the marine sea
7 turtles.
8 So for that reason, we're here today to
9 support the lease, and we'd hope that you would,
10 too.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
12 MR. FOSTER: Good morning, Governor,
13 members of the Cabinet. I'm Kevin Foster,
14 Chairman of the Palm Beach County Commission,
15 and also Chairman of the Tourist County
16 Council.
17 I am here this morning to express the Board
18 of County Commissioner's very strong support for
19 the pier, and certainly the approval of this
20 submerged lease that we're asking for your
21 support today.
22 The Board's been hashing this out for a
23 long time. Everything that you've heard today,
24 including the large packet of information that
25 I've sent up to you earlier, has been hashed
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1 out, beat up, talked about for years. For years
2 and years.
3 And the fact of the matter is, I think
4 certainly this group of elected officials here
5 certainly knows Palm Beach County's commitment
6 to the environment. We probably have one of the
7 strongest records in the state of Florida on a
8 commitment to preserve land in our community.
9 In addition to that, we probably have the
10 strictest environmental regulation management
11 department in the nation, probably not just in
12 this state, but even beyond that.
13 To the point that at one time, believe it
14 or not, they were talking about enforcement, and
15 whether Palm Beach County will enforce it or
16 not. The fact of the matter is, our own growth
17 department sued our utility department one
18 time. I think that's a pretty good indication
19 of how serious we are about enforcement.
20 This pier is going to offer excellent
21 recreational opportunity for our kids. Our
22 Board has been very interested in trying to get
23 kids off the street, as many of you know from
24 your visits to Palm Beach County, and this plays
25 right into that.
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1 In addition to providing fishermen like
2 myself that don't have a boat, a place to go
3 fish when we'd like to get out as close to that
4 Gulfstream as possible, it would give us that
5 opportunity.
6 For the tourists that visit our community,
7 it's a huge asset to be able to walk out into
8 the ocean and look back on Palm Beach County.
9 And we think that it's going to be a wonderful
10 jewel for Palm Beach County.
11 And, Commissioner Nelson, you talked about
12 the concern about location. We beat the heck
13 out of that one as well. We looked at
14 everything.
15 We looked at that jetty very, very
16 seriously. And the liability issues alone in
17 regards to that jetty were serious enough to
18 make us take a look at other places. And we
19 think we found the best place.
20 We have a county park that will serve
21 really -- a real answer to most of the
22 mitigation that we're dealing with here.
23 And, yes, there are a couple tall condos.
24 I don't know how the photographer kept them out
25 of the picture. But he must have been looking
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1 up at your space shuttle or something, because
2 those condos are all around that area.
3 But this little pristine area, as everybody
4 has indicated, can be very much protected. And
5 we have staff here that are going to talk very
6 briefly, and I'm going to stop now, about the
7 issues of the turtles and the permitting.
8 And let me tell you, this Board of
9 County Commissioners that voted 6-1 on this
10 issue is very committed to enforcing it, and we
11 agree to the very, very strict conditions being
12 placed on us in regards to this pier.
13 And I pledge to you personally that we will
14 uphold those commitments, and we're going to
15 have a pier that's going to make every one of
16 you up there proud. And when you come, I will
17 personally take you out on that pier.
18 I used to drive 60 miles from Belle Glade
19 to fish on that Juno Pier, and I miss it
20 desperately. And we really want that -- we want
21 to replace that asset to Palm Beach County
22 that's missing today.
23 And I thank you in advance for your
24 support. And we appreciate your consideration.
25 Thank you, gentlemen and ladies.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. FOSTER: Thank you.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, can I ask a
4 question?
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question -- there's a
6 question before you go.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Come back.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Kevin.
9 MR. FOSTER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me ask you a
11 quick question.
12 You alluded to the potential liability
13 issue with extending the pier in Jupiter.
14 MR. FOSTER: It's a jetty, honestly,
15 Frank. It's not a -- it's not a pier at all.
16 It's a jetty. It's an extension of a wall with
17 rocks all around it that's only about 3 or
18 4 feet wide right now. So you can imagine just
19 the liabilities of walking out on it with small
20 kids with no --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is it --
22 MR. FOSTER: -- railings and --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- is it going to be
24 extended?
25 MR. FOSTER: That's going to be a choice
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1 that that particular inlet commission's going to
2 have to make in the future.
3 The Board of County Commissioners aren't
4 going to be -- we're not going to be putting
5 up -- excuse me -- putting up money to expand
6 that operation.
7 It's already one of the most dangerous
8 inlets in the state of Florida today. It's our
9 second most dangerous right in
10 Palm Beach County.
11 And the last thing that we want to do is
12 focus our population and the millions of
13 visitors that come to Palm Beach County to a
14 dangerous area like that.
15 We're having tough problems just keeping
16 that beach alive up there pumping millions and
17 millions of dollars worth of sand on it just to
18 keep it alive. Much less trying to maintain it
19 to allow for additional traffic at that
20 particular inlet.
21 And Tom Twyford mentioned the mix of
22 boaters and fishermen on piers and such. They
23 don't mix. They really don't. It's about as --
24 I guess -- I won't even come up with a
25 comparison.
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1 But I was going to use surfers. But we
2 probably have some surfers in the audience that
3 may be offended by it.
4 But honestly, Commissioner, we looked at
5 these issues for not days or months, but years,
6 with extensive public hearings on this issue.
7 And we honestly feel that this is the best
8 location for us to provide this asset to our
9 community.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
11 MR. BEAUDET: Honorable Governor, member of
12 the Cabinet -- members of the Cabinet, my name
13 is Bevin Beaudet. I'm Assistant County
14 Administrator for Palm Beach County for
15 Environmental Services, and I am representing
16 the Board today.
17 You heard about the benefits of the pier,
18 the public access benefits and recreational and
19 family recreational benefits. You've heard
20 about the broad based support in the community,
21 you've heard about the support from the Board.
22 You've heard about the petitions, the 3,000
23 that we've had, and I think we had given to your
24 staff members.
25 Let me focus today on turtles, because
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1 you've had some misinformation, and I think this
2 needs to be put into perspective for you.
3 Basically, turtle behavior is pretty well
4 known. Turtles basically stay offshore during
5 the day, and they come onshore at night. And
6 they come onshore during very predictable
7 seasons of the year.
8 The lease that you're looking at has
9 conditions, and the permits that are being
10 proposed have conditions, that prevent any
11 operation of that pier: Walking on the pier;
12 lights on the pier, even before dark, for
13 eight months out of the year. And basically,
14 those restrictions are going to prevent any
15 impacts on turtles.
16 Now, that's just not Palm Beach County's
17 opinion, although we do have that opinion from
18 our environmental resource management.
19 I'd like to read to you the Fish and
20 Wildlife Service Environmental Report that was
21 issued on this very project. And it says that
22 reasonable and prudent measures when you're
23 implementing terms and conditions, blah, blah --
24 which by the way, the ones in here are not as
25 strict as the ones that we are now looking at --
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1 With implementation of these measures, Fish
2 and Wildlife Service believes that no more than
3 one sea turtle nest will be incidentally taken
4 annually.
5 Now, I mean, this comes right out of their
6 own environmental report. If we didn't have
7 these conditions, there would be a concern.
8 Yes, this is a high density nesting area.
9 However, the chart that the people from
10 Jupiter showed you made it look like that high
11 density was only in that one little area where
12 we're putting in the pier. That's not true.
13 That high density area -- and we do have
14 technical information we can show you, if you
15 wish, I have my technical experts with me -- to
16 show you that that high density area goes not --
17 a number of miles north and south of the
18 proposed pier.
19 So we're not taking out the only piece of a
20 beach that the turtles can nest on. You need to
21 be very clear about that.
22 Also, one last thought. When we first
23 brought this pier up, we met with environmental
24 groups, we met with the Audubon Society, other
25 groups, talking about the environmental issues,
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1 and we've got essentially the go ahead from them
2 on this pier site.
3 We also met with the town of Jupiter and
4 other cities. And initially when we first met
5 and we appointed their citizens to this pier
6 committee, we had no problem.
7 So, you know, we have made a big effort to
8 include the cities, a big effort to include all
9 the environmental groups in this. And we
10 believe if you look at the facts, you'll support
11 the pier.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Governor, both sides have
14 had 20 minutes. There are two speakers who have
15 not gotten to speak on this one side.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, let's give them a
17 minute each.
18 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
19 MR. ARLINE: Governor Chiles, all these
20 people on the left side, we drove up from
21 West Palm to be here today.
22 Some quick things need to be rebutted.
23 I've got a Bachelor of Science degree in
24 aquaculture. It's actually a glorified marine
25 biology degree. I did two years of research for
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1 the county collecting turtle research. Born and
2 raised in West Palm Beach County.
3 I'm pretty sure the highest density of
4 turtle nesting is Hutchinson Island, not on our
5 side.
6 We've had diving clubs that have said they
7 will clean the reef monthly, weekly,
8 voluntarily, of anything.
9 On the -- on the pier there's going to be
10 tanks with turtles in them, people will be able
11 to see turtles if there's a sick or hurt turtle
12 come in. Same thing they have -- they're going
13 to lose business if we have the same thing on
14 our pier.
15 The public can't fish a pier because we're
16 going to have a few turtle safe lights out on
17 the pier.
18 Condos are going to go all the way down
19 that beach. They're there, and they're building
20 up right now. Each one's going to be lit up
21 like a Christmas tree. I read a -- you could
22 read a newspaper at night in front of those
23 condos at night.
24 When people go fishing, they buy Cokes,
25 chips, gas, tackle. It's a big income for the
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1 county.
2 Fishing piers are a vehicle for family
3 values. You can't -- you're not going to be
4 able to fish the Jupiter Inlet. That current
5 there is treacherous, there are no lifeguards
6 there. People regularly get swiped from the
7 current that runs south -- north to the jetty,
8 they get swiped out into the current and they
9 are gone. That current blazes through there,
10 lightning speed.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
12 MR. ARLINE: No. Please. I guess that's
13 it.
14 Oh. My first -- first time I ever saw a
15 turtle was with my father. And it was late at
16 night coming off the Juno Pier. And we
17 watched -- the turtles came up because it was
18 late at night. Most fishermen were gone.
19 And me and my father watched the turtle lay
20 its eggs right there off the pier. The pier
21 could become another place to -- to -- a safe
22 place to turtle watch without disturbing the
23 turtles. And it's a fact that I -- when I took
24 research for the county, I had some -- okay --
25 all these county -- all these condos are going
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1 to have stairs built out on the water.
2 When I took data for the county, I had
3 three -- two green turtles, really endangered,
4 very rare, one leatherback -- loggerhead climb
5 right underneath the stairs. I don't think
6 he -- his back had enough room under the
7 stairs. And they dug in the same hole.
8 I recall it, because the shower above
9 the -- above the stairs was dripping, and I was
10 concerned for the water dripping onto the eggs
11 of the turtles.
12 So it --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
14 MR. ARLINE: Governor Chiles, I love your
15 radio show. I keep it up there with the Prairie
16 Home Companion.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Might give him another
18 minute.
19 MR. HEITTERMEYER: Governor Chiles, member
20 of the Cabinet, I'll make it very brief.
21 My name is Bob Heittermeyer, I come from
22 Tequesta, and I'm an outdoor writer.
23 General Milligan, I think you might
24 appreciate this.
25 When I came marching home from
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1 World War II, my wife and I went up to a beach
2 in old Greenwich, Connecticut, near
3 Captain's Island, where we used to swim. We
4 were aghast. The entire beach was covered with
5 signs for residents only, no trespassing. I
6 felt disenfranchised.
7 In the 1960s, I bought a condominium on
8 Beach Road on Jupiter Island. It was the second
9 condominium built on the island. I could look
10 out of my porch and see the bluefish, run down
11 and catch them, and I felt very selfish.
12 Beach Road was posted with no parking signs.
13 From a practical standpoint, it was
14 impossible to get on the beach, unless you
15 walked several miles.
16 Today fresh water ponds are disappearing in
17 golf course communities, behind gated
18 condominiums.
19 As Tom Twyford, and others, have said, the
20 amount of water available to the person that
21 does not have a boat is becoming extremely
22 limited.
23 I beseech you, on the part -- not of people
24 like myself who have a boat, but those who can't
25 afford a boat, or who can't go on a boat, give
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1 them a place to fish and an opportunity.
2 Thank you, General.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Governor, members of the
5 Cabinet, I'm Eva Armstrong. I'm representing
6 National Audubon and Florida Audubon.
7 And I'm in an usual position this morning
8 in that both of these organizations seriously
9 question the wisdom of siting this pier at this
10 site.
11 However, our Everglades Audubon Chapter has
12 been involved from the beginning with this site
13 process. And it's their belief that with these
14 special conditions attached to the lease, it'll
15 work for the turtles.
16 What I would urge is that you require,
17 if anybody comes to apply for amendments to the
18 lease conditions, that you bring it back here
19 for this Board to hear.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
22 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes the
23 speakers.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there
25 discussion, motion?
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'd move the
2 recommendation.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded on the
6 recommendation.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Now, the motion is to
8 accept the recommendation and build the pier?
9 Is that what your motion is?
10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right.
11 TREASURER NELSON: Well then, I want to
12 vigorously oppose it. Let me -- let me just
13 tell you, first of all, we're passing down a
14 letter, and this letter states on behalf of the
15 Department of Environmental Protection by
16 Dr. Witherington that he -- he cites a number of
17 facts, and this is a conclusion:
18 That this confirms my impression that the
19 Juno Beach area is among the darkest stretches
20 of beach in the county -- there was some
21 question as to that -- Dr. Witherington, Marine
22 Research Associate, Florida Marine Research
23 Institute, written on DEP.
24 Secondly, it seems to me that DEP,
25 Madam Secretary, has consistently taken a
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1 position against this pier in this location.
2 I have a letter here from April of '95,
3 about nine months ago, written by Jeremy Craft,
4 Director of the Division of Environmental
5 Resource Permitting, that says that the concerns
6 are the location of the project and the
7 potential for impact to marine turtles and other
8 marine resources. The suggested change is to
9 find another location with lower turtle nesting
10 density.
11 And then followed that by five months, an
12 August 1st, 1995, letter by Jeremy Craft,
13 Department of Environmental Protection, that
14 says that county staff performed a site
15 selection study prior to application, a site on
16 Singer Island within Riviera Beach ranked
17 extremely high.
18 And if there is inaccuracy to this chart
19 that we've all been given showing where the --
20 the nesting density is, that Riviera Beach has
21 very little nesting density, and I understand
22 that Riviera Beach is about 6 miles from this
23 Juno Beach location, whereas all up and down the
24 beach around Juno Beach, it's a high density
25 of -- of turtle nesting.
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1 With the testimony of the Commissioner
2 from -- from Jupiter that says that they would
3 like to see in the town of Jupiter a -- an
4 extension of the jetty into a fishing facility,
5 it seems to me, that not being a place of
6 nesting, certainly ought to be a concern.
7 Now, you know, enough of all of this leads
8 me to believe, why in the world are we putting
9 it there?
10 And then, Governor, you and I have a little
11 background in this, because when you were my
12 senior Senator, and I was one of your junior
13 Congressmen, we established the Archie Carr
14 Preserve south of Melbourne Beach, which was in
15 my Congressional district, and it was one of
16 these places where there was a high density of
17 these turtles nesting.
18 And we got the federal government involved
19 with appropriations in order to protect what is
20 a natural resource.
21 Now, I just simply have not seen the
22 evidence here, given the threat to the turtle
23 nesting, of why there should be a pier built in
24 this location when there ought to be other
25 alternatives, as we have had described here
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1 today by the City Commissioner, and as we have
2 described here in this documentation within the
3 last year from the Department -- from the
4 Department of Environmental Protection.
5 So I -- my case, I didn't come up here to
6 make a stand of carrying the water on this
7 thing. But, boy, I'm telling you, from what
8 I've heard today, it's time to put my foot down,
9 and to say -- and to urge this Board of Trustees
10 of the Internal Improvement Trust Fund, that
11 you've got a clear case here.
12 Folks who want to fish have an opportunity,
13 and there are other alternatives. But we are
14 directly threatening a precious natural resource
15 if we allow this pier -- on the basis of this
16 testimony that we've heard today, if we allow
17 this pier to be built.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: In my
19 nine years on this Board, I think I've been as
20 strong an advocate for the preservation of the
21 turtle than probably anyone, or at least as
22 equal to them.
23 But when I have -- when I have
24 organizations such as Audubon and Ted Forester
25 coming up here and saying that in their wisdom,
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1 they believe that this will not have an adverse
2 effect on the turtle, I have to take that in
3 consideration.
4 And when the County Commission Chair says
5 that they are going to abide by all of the
6 restrictions -- and believe me -- I'm just
7 reading the restrictions.
8 And they have a lot of special conditions
9 here that have been imposed, and I think -- I
10 don't know of any other pier that has had this
11 many restrictions ever imposed upon it.
12 In fact, I thought the County was going to
13 say no to the restrictions -- and I mean, that
14 would have been -- my vote was easy then, I was
15 going to say, fine, move the pier.
16 But with the County agreeing to all the
17 restrictions -- and I assume that staff -- since
18 it is controversial -- would bring anything up
19 that the Cabinet does not agree with -- that
20 I believe that unbalance here, I would have to
21 go contrary to you on our vote, and we very
22 seldom do that on an environmental issue.
23 But I think here, the -- on the balancing
24 of the safety that the Cabinet will have to be
25 burdened with, I believe that -- with some
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1 amount of safety, not 100 percent safety, that
2 we can -- this is -- this pier is being as well
3 built as possible in order to preserve the
4 turtles. And I think we should go forward.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there --
6 General.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I may, Governor,
8 I'll help Commissioner Nelson carry on.
9 In a few moments, or when we finish this
10 particular issue, we're going to address an
11 issue that is a result of a pristine area that
12 was destroyed many years ago. And we're
13 trying -- talking about walking the cat back to
14 fix a bad decision.
15 This decision I think borders on that same
16 character. We have an area that we know is
17 environmentally important, and I don't want to
18 make a decision now that we have to review later
19 and try to walk the cat back at great expense.
20 I think this environmental situation
21 deserves our support in not approving the pier.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: General, I was almost
23 persuaded in the direction which you're going.
24 But you started talking about allowing somebody
25 to make a subjective decision earlier on, that
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1 those people that are elected by everybody in
2 the County, those people that voted 6 to 1,
3 you know, for this and have had a chance to
4 study this way longer than we have.
5 And normally on an issue like this, you see
6 all of the conservation groups all come up and
7 oppose something. The Caribbean Group that we
8 have on turtles are not the only, you know,
9 group that we had.
10 Where is Audubon, where is the -- Friends
11 of -- you know, all of these other groups that
12 we see.
13 I don't see them here today. And it seems
14 like to me, if you're talking about walking the
15 cat, there have been an awful lot of walking the
16 cat to put every kind of restriction in the
17 world on this in regard to turtles.
18 And I think at some stage, you know,
19 turtles are tremendously important. As
20 Commissioner Nelson said, I've certainly tried
21 to be an advocate and help the -- and procure
22 land and do an awful lot of other things in
23 regard to helping the turtles.
24 And I tell you, if there was much wrong
25 with this, I think this lady that's going to be
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1 here on the subject that you're talking about in
2 a few minutes would be up here. She's been the
3 turtle protector with her husband, Archie Carr,
4 forever.
5 And it just seems like to me that this is
6 one that -- that some day, you've got to look
7 at, what do you do for the folks? The folks
8 are, you know -- and -- you know, if you live in
9 one of those high rises, you probably don't want
10 the inconvenience -- inconvenience of your lunch
11 bucket coming down there, and being able to take
12 a six-pack out on the pier and enjoying himself
13 during the day. He may come from the other side
14 of the county; he may not, you know, kind of be
15 right there.
16 But this one to me, you know, is not that
17 close, to tell you the truth, to me, because it
18 looks like every protection in the world has
19 been put there to try to -- try to balance. And
20 I think -- what I think we have to look for is
21 win-win situations. Can you do something for
22 the turtle, but do something for the folks at
23 the same time.
24 And I would say that was what this has done
25 to me.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I may, Governor,
2 if -- I would certainly agree with you if there
3 were not reasonable -- reasonable alternatives
4 or reasonable options to this pier. And there
5 are.
6 So that's why I disagree.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
8 Well, that -- that's always -- reasonable
9 is like love, in the eyes of the beholder,
10 you know. If -- whether it's reasonable to get
11 on that jetty, you know, and risk your life --
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I will not -- I
13 will not make the last comment. You can have
14 the last comment, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: You just did.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Right.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: I tried to fish in -- I
19 tried to fish in that jetty before, and the
20 snook were running, and I was -- I wanted to
21 stay, but it got -- and I was in a boat -- but
22 it got too daggum dangerous and couldn't stay
23 there, even though the fish were biting, the
24 snooks were biting. And that doesn't happen
25 very often.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- you know, it's
4 easy to characterize votes like this as being
5 for or against everything but the issue at
6 hand.
7 You know, I've heard everything that
8 everybody says, and I'm going to tell you, this
9 isn't a vote against fishermen, it's not a vote
10 against nonboaters, it's not a vote against
11 children or good welfare, or quality of life,
12 it's not a vote against economic growth and
13 development, and it's not a vote against the
14 wisdom of the Palm Beach Post, or the folks.
15 It's simply I think the pier's in the wrong
16 place, and I think they could move it further
17 south and still have fishermen and nonboaters
18 and children, economic growth, local government
19 being satisfied, the Palm Beach Post being
20 giddy, and the folks getting what they want.
21 And it simply boils down to that.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Further discussion?
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I -- I really
24 wasn't going to speak to the issue at all, but
25 I think that you are precisely correct.
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1 This -- this is an issue where I think
2 there have been lots of different provisions
3 made. There have been lots of compromises
4 where, frankly, Palm Beach have been told that
5 they have to abide by these rules in order for
6 this to exist.
7 The -- the Palm Beach County Commission
8 will have to approve those if they have not
9 already. My understanding was that they have
10 not looked at all the provisions that have been
11 put forth by DEP. But if they did not approve,
12 this would not happen anyway.
13 And if, in fact, you truly believed in
14 local control, and that there may be better
15 alternatives, that's not really our decision to
16 pick where Palm Beach decides that they want
17 this pier.
18 What our decision is is whether or not we
19 have put in enough provisions to provide for the
20 safety of these turtles.
21 DEP is telling us that these are the
22 provisions that we need to require. And it
23 seems to me that this is in the best interest of
24 both the environment, and the people of
25 Palm Beach County.
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1 The Palm Beach County Commission have
2 passed this over the opposition of one County
3 Commissioner. That's unusual in itself.
4 And so I -- I believe very strongly that,
5 yes, this is probably for the folks, but it's
6 also, I think, safety of the environment as
7 well.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If I can,
9 Governor.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
12 Secretary Wetherell, am I correct in the fact
13 that this will need --
14 MS. WETHERELL: Five votes.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- five
16 votes on the support side?
17 MS. WETHERELL: Yes.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think it's
19 pretty obvious, Governor, and to all the members
20 of the Cabinet, that this vote is not going to
21 be a five-vote issue.
22 And it appears that no one really is
23 opposed to a pier, and it's just whether or not
24 this is the best right place for the pier.
25 Because of all the work that's been done to
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1 date on this, I would suggest that we defer this
2 issue, and -- and perhaps look at it again in
3 the very near future, if, in fact, there is a
4 better place; or, in fact, this is the best
5 place, maybe do it that way. But --
6 Unless the County wants a no vote right
7 now, and then that's it. But --
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That -- Governor,
9 could I --
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- I'm supporting
12 the building of the pier, but it does take five
13 votes. I think that's the dilemma we find
14 ourselves in.
15 And I would just echo some of the other
16 comments. I think the County Commission did
17 their usual tough environmental job here, and
18 they -- they put restrictions on this pier that
19 are unbelievable. Strong.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah.
21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And as they have
22 proven to be in the past on all the
23 environmental issues.
24 But I guess -- I don't know, maybe if we
25 could take a vote. But it looks like it's a
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1 four -- the majority of the Board apparently
2 favors it, but we need five votes. So that --
3 that's --
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I say --
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- the dilemma we
6 find ourselves in.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If, in fact,
8 we can -- if anybody believes any more
9 information will come available to defer versus
10 killing it, I mean, whatever way the Board wants
11 to go.
12 But I would make a motion -- a substitute
13 motion that we defer the item.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a substitute
15 motion.
16 TREASURER NELSON: I would like to --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second to that
18 motion?
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
20 I'd like to also hear from some folks about
21 this --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Commissioner.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- and from the
24 Commissioner --
25 MS. WETHERELL: The County has just told me
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1 they would prefer to defer it.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Well, may I speak?
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
4 TREASURER NELSON: The County, of course,
5 wants to defer it because they don't have the
6 votes.
7 You know, let's go on and let's record our
8 votes, and -- and they can always work this
9 thing in the future if there's a reasonable
10 place to put it that this resource is not going
11 to be threatened.
12 I would -- well, I'd like to call the
13 question, but the question looks like it's going
14 to be on -- on the substitute motion by the
15 Attorney General.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We may have
17 four votes to defer, and --
18 TREASURER NELSON: So that's what you've
19 got us in, in that posture. You've got four
20 votes to defer, so we're in the parliamentary
21 process that --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, we --
23 TREASURER NELSON: -- it gets defer--
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- can do it the other
25 way, and let you agree with the majority and
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1 change your vote. I mean --
2 All right. You've heard the substitute
3 motion --
4 MS. WETHERELL: Governor --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- we've discussed this
6 question.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Governor --
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: So many as favor the
9 substitution --
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- signify by saying aye.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Governor --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Give me --
14 MS. WETHERELL: -- can I just suggest that
15 deferral means it comes back on the next Cabinet
16 meeting.
17 So if you want it -- if you want more time
18 to try to look at the other -- any other
19 alternatives, then perhaps you will want to
20 defer it to a time certain, or withdraw it --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: You want to make --
22 MS. WETHERELL: -- and have us bring it
23 back.
24 What's your pleasure, next time or future
25 date?
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: The 27th's too soon.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have no
3 mind -- I mean, I don't mind waiting six months,
4 I really don't. Whatever -- whatever's
5 necessary.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: He says --
7 MS. WETHERELL: You might want to withdraw
8 it then if you want it to come later than next
9 time. Otherwise --
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah.
11 MS. WETHERELL: -- it'll be on every agenda
12 from now on.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well,
14 Madam Secretary, my concern really is what the
15 Governor I think articulated very, very well.
16 Usually the people that come here opposed
17 to this issue are standing side-by-side with the
18 people that want this -- that want to build a
19 pier.
20 That really concerns me greatly. I -- I
21 did some staff work on this, maybe I have not
22 done enough on it insofar as which way to go.
23 I mean, I'm not a real strong vote for it, but
24 I'm balanced -- I'm for it.
25 And I don't know how much time it would
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1 take for the -- I mean, I don't want to
2 shortchange your staff or anybody else.
3 And I don't mind -- is it best to withdraw
4 it versus deferring for a couple months, or --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: A motion to withdraw
6 just -- then allows you just put it on when you
7 want --
8 MS. WETHERELL: Withdrawal allows us to put
9 it on when it's right --
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think that might be
11 better, move to withdraw.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If there's
13 no objection, I would move that the item be
14 withdrawn, Governor.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Will the gentleman
17 yield?
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Of course I will.
19 TREASURER NELSON: I want to --
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thanks for
21 calling me a gentleman.
22 TREASURER NELSON: I want to -- I want to
23 compliment the Attorney General's parliamentary
24 wisdom. I'm impressed.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. He's -- he's
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1 requested a withdrawal.
2 Is there objection to the request?
3 TREASURER NELSON: I object.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Then he moves
6 to withdraw.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: And there's been a
9 second.
10 So many as favor the motion, signify by
11 saying aye.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Aye.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Aye.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No.
17 TREASURER NELSON: No.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Four-three, it carries.
19 You don't need a count, do you?
20 TREASURER NELSON: No, we don't need to
21 count.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay. I'm 0 for 2.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10 --
24 TREASURER NELSON: You did good on your
25 part. You were smart.
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1 You see, I should --
2 MS. WETHERELL: You ready to --
3 TREASURER NELSON: -- should have been --
4 MS. WETHERELL: -- proceed, Governor?
5 TREASURER NELSON: -- Johnny on the spot
6 and say, I move the question.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, that's a -- that's
8 a majority vote though.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Yes, it is.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: You had -- you had your
11 necessary block, but you --
12 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor.
14 Governor.
15 Governor.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I need to -- you
18 need to correct that vote, because I supported
19 the withdrawal.
20 I supported withdrawal.
21 TREASURER NELSON: Five to two, withdrawal.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. Excuse me. Yeah.
23 We'll let that be recorded, 5 to 2, on the
24 withdrawal.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. Item 10 --
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
2 MS. WETHERELL: -- Item 10, we're
3 recommending acceptance of the Ocklawaha River
4 restoration status report.
5 And, Governor, we have thirteen people
6 wishing to speak today. I would like to call on
7 Dale Patchett, who has the lead in our agency on
8 this project, to give you a very brief overview
9 of the report.
10 And then we have twelve people following
11 that, five in opposition, and six in support.
12 Governor Chiles --
13 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Ask a
15 question, Governor.
16 Why are we here? For what purpose --
17 I mean, just for myself --
18 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I'm --
20 education. Are we going to be readdressing the
21 issue, or are we just going to accept or not
22 accept your report?
23 MS. WETHERELL: We have been asked by one
24 of the Trustees to put this status report on the
25 agenda. We normally send it -- deliver it to
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1 your offices. But it was asked to be put on the
2 agenda for discussion. So it's --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I asked for the
4 status report. I have no problem accepting the
5 status report, and certainly will. But --
6 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- one of the things
8 that I've found as I looked thoroughly into this
9 situation was that the economic analysis that I
10 read in detail -- which, by the way, was a very
11 fine economic analysis. I think meeting the
12 standards -- the best standards of that type of
13 analysis.
14 I found that -- and I was astounded to find
15 that one of the options that was evaluated in
16 the economic analysis had not been presented to
17 the Cabinet.
18 And it happens that that particular option
19 in terms of costs to the citizens of the state
20 and benefit to the citizens of the state is the
21 best option.
22 That doesn't mean then that we are walking
23 the cat back in any respect right now, other
24 than accepting the report, but knowing full well
25 what we're doing in terms of the decisions that
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1 have already been made.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, as
3 I understand it, if we are going to walk the cat
4 back, if that was the vote, we could not do that
5 today proced--
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Oh, absolutely.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Absolutely.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. Got
10 you.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'm not -- and
12 that's not intended to be anything other than to
13 bring to all of our attention from what
14 I believe was an oversight in the original
15 presentation, not providing all the --
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. I think that
17 because this question's been before us many
18 times at great length, and that this is the
19 presentation of the status report which will not
20 require a vote, we'll just simply accept it, or
21 we normally honor and accept the status report,
22 that we ought to be able to curtail this to
23 20 minutes, 10 minutes on each side.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: We're not going to take
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1 any action here today that does something one
2 way or the other to the -- to the river.
3 So let's try to contain it that way.
4 Dale.
5 MR. PATCHETT: Thank you, Governor.
6 And with that, I'll shorten my remarks even
7 further and address specifically
8 Comptroller Milligan's request, as he did review
9 the economic documents and asked us questions
10 regarding how we presented what we presented to
11 the -- the Governor and Cabinet.
12 Within those studies, we studied the
13 economic and environmental consequences of
14 restoration and retention.
15 The Comptroller's correct that under the
16 retention scenario, there was an alternative
17 that provides a high benefit level. Under the
18 restoration scenario, we chose to do a minimum
19 restoration, which provides the highest benefit
20 for restoration.
21 The Governor and Cabinet had directed us
22 when they adopted the plan originally in 1992 to
23 proceed towards restoration, we went through the
24 legislative process, had the Legislature adopt
25 it, required the studies that we were required
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1 to do, we went out and did the studies, and
2 brought the recommendation back.
3 Based on the long-standing policy of this
4 state --
5 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
6 MR. PATCHETT: -- financial records systems
7 wherever possible.
8 We spend millions of dollars on the
9 Everglades and Florida Bay and Kissimmee River
10 to do those restorations. This Ocklawaha River
11 restoration project is just a continuation of
12 that policy.
13 Staff felt it provided the best economic
14 and environmental benefits, and that's how our
15 recommendation was arrived at.
16 (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
17 MR. PATCHETT: But the Comptroller's
18 totally correct, we did present the information,
19 but it was buried within the studies, it was not
20 pulled out as a separate item, and for that we
21 do apologize if that was an error.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I think the point
23 that really needs to be made is that the option
24 that was not presented, in fact, represents a
25 two-fold benefit -- cost benefit advantage to
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1 the citizens of the state over the one that was
2 decisioned.
3 And I believe, and I have no intention of
4 doing anything other than right now making that
5 perfectly clear to the world in the sunshine.
6 They need to know that we didn't see all of the
7 options, and one of the options was two times
8 better than the one we selected. And that needs
9 to be, I think, made perfectly clear.
10 And that's the whole purpose that I asked
11 Dale to, in fact, make his -- and the Secretary
12 to make their presentation here.
13 MR. PATCHETT: We appreciate it.
14 MS. WETHERELL: General Milligan,
15 I think -- there are just two little points on
16 that I'd like to make.
17 One, and I'm not trying to be defensive,
18 but simply that the Legislature gave us the four
19 options to explore. And we were -- furthermore,
20 we were exploring the restoration option at the
21 Cabinet's direction.
22 So we didn't intentionally leave it out
23 because --
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes, ma'am. I --
25 MS. WETHERELL: -- does I --
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and I understand
2 that. And -- but I just think in terms of
3 trying to keep things in the sunshine, it's
4 important to know --
5 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- that an option --
7 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- that was not
9 presented happens to be twice the value --
10 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- than that which
12 was presented.
13 And now, as far as I'm concerned, rests in
14 the hands of the Legislature to decide whether
15 or not they want to provide appropriations for
16 the restoration.
17 (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And that is their
19 decision.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I look forward
22 to see how that evolves in the current
23 legislative -- or the upcoming legislative
24 hearings.
25 MS. WETHERELL: That's always true. We're
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1 always at their mercy.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. I'll call on the
4 people who wish to speak in opposition.
5 First of all, Mike Murtha from
6 Senator Kirkpatrick's office, then
7 Dr. Dan Canfield from the University of
8 Florida.
9 MR. MURTHA: Members of the Cabinet, I'll
10 just keep it real brief. You all have --
11 through your aides have gotten a copy of our --
12 our interpretation of the Chapter 93, dash,
13 216.
14 This has been a long, ongoing issue. We
15 differ on several -- several issues. In
16 particular, whether the management plan has been
17 adopted.
18 I hope you've taken the time -- I'm sure
19 you've taken time with your staff to look at
20 some of our issues.
21 One of the things I think that's had --
22 that I concur with Governor Chiles on is that
23 this is really -- it's really important to know
24 how the local community feels.
25 And there are some folks here that -- from
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1 Putnam County and the County Commission that
2 just want to spend a couple of minutes of your
3 time to let them know how they feel.
4 I appreciate all your concern.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
6 MR. CANFIELD: My name's Dan Canfield. I'm
7 a professor at the University of Florida. I've
8 been working on the Rodman issue since 1979 when
9 I came to this state.
10 Let me state, this is not an economic or an
11 environmental issue. It is a political issue,
12 folks. It is a battle between those who seek
13 benefits in the reservoir, and those who seek
14 benefit in a river without a dam on it.
15 One of the problems that we've had has been
16 a problem of misinformation being brought
17 forward at various times, and put into the
18 papers and everything else.
19 For myself and my circle of friends, let me
20 state for the record that we thank
21 Senator Kirkpatrick, Representative
22 Kelley Smith, and the other elected officials,
23 who have stood their ground against a very
24 intense campaign of misinformation, with a
25 design of one purpose, destroy this reservoir.
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1 We can't let a lie be told so often it
2 becomes the truth.
3 Now, relative to economics, General, that
4 you've asked about, the DEP study says many
5 things, as you have read. And the summaries
6 that have been brought forth have not
7 necessarily been what many of us would be led to
8 believe.
9 First and foremost, from the local
10 standpoint, the DEP, the Army Corps. If this
11 reservoir was a state park, it would be the
12 tenth or twelfth most visited state park in the
13 state of Florida. It has that many people. It
14 is not a handful of lowly bass fishermen trying
15 to fish there. It has many uses.
16 Economics, yes, it's a small percentage of
17 Putnam and Marion County's economy. But each
18 year, based on the DEP studies, it generates
19 somewhere between 6 and 7 million dollars to
20 each of those economies. So it's not just a
21 little pittance of money.
22 Also when you look at all the alternatives
23 in that DEP report, DEP is very clear that after
24 you look at operational costs, and you have
25 charts before you showing the costs of what it
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1 takes to keep things or get rid of things.
2 But after you subtract that, because we all
3 know you have to spend money to make money,
4 Rodman Reservoir provides at least 18 million
5 dollars in net economic benefits over the next
6 20 years sitting there as is.
7 More importantly, when you look at what
8 they call opportunity economic costs, that's the
9 costs if you don't have Rodman, what happens to
10 you; if you don't have your river, what
11 happens?
12 It is the restoration alternatives over the
13 next 20 years in the DEP report that produced
14 the greatest net economic losses, anywhere from
15 a million three dollars to eighteen million in
16 the losses. Overall.
17 That's the economic story. Plus there's
18 jobs involved, and there's the other things that
19 you have.
20 And one of the other things in economics is
21 if this river goes away, it's not free.
22 Proponents have said it's free. There's a cost
23 of keeping that land there. And, of course,
24 then there's the legal costs of will we even be
25 able to keep the land because of reverter
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1 clauses.
2 Environmentally, folks, this is a great
3 reservoir. It has a place for people and
4 animals and fish and plants. Everything that
5 has been said about the reservoir being dead and
6 dying has not proven true. The DEP studies have
7 shown that there's more bird species there,
8 aquatic birds than in the river.
9 They have shown that you will -- if you
10 restore -- threaten more threatened species than
11 by keeping it there.
12 Environmentally, if you restore this,
13 according to their studies, you can have maybe
14 two more bears and maybe one more panther. But
15 even Fish & Game says this isn't panther
16 habitat, they won't introduce them into the
17 Ocklaw-- Ocala National Forest.
18 So environmentally, economically, a lot of
19 the issues that are in those DEP reports I
20 believe support the folks that are asking to
21 keep this thing. This is a place where we can
22 have man and the environment, too.
23 Thank you.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Well, we've got 5 minutes
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1 left for Gary Adams, Kae Andry, Lou Snow, and
2 Billy Peoples, if you'll all come forward.
3 MR. ADAMS: Thank you, Governor and
4 Cabinet. I will be very brief also.
5 I was most interested to hear your previous
6 discussions about your interest in the
7 environmentally endangered species, the turtles,
8 and also your concern about local control.
9 I would point out two things to you:
10 Number one, the Rodman Reservoir, like
11 Lake Ocklawaha, is a habitat for the bald eagle
12 who also, I believe, fits into that category.
13 There are many eagles that are there, as well as
14 many other birds and animals, as you well are
15 aware.
16 As far as local control goes, our Board of
17 County Commissioners has voted on several
18 different occasions -- and I believe you have
19 the most recent resolution that they have
20 adopted -- concerning the reservoir. They are
21 the elected representatives locally of the
22 people of Putnam County, and they have passed
23 numerous resolutions in support of keeping that.
24 Our Board, I do want to apologize for them,
25 they would be here today, except they are in
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1 a -- one of their regularly scheduled meetings
2 and could not be here, and they asked me to come
3 in their place.
4 This is a very important issue to us. You
5 talked about jobs, 6 or 7 million dollars per
6 year, a hundred plus jobs, to some of the larger
7 counties in the state don't mean a whole lot.
8 They mean a great deal to Putnam County.
9 If we lose 6 or 7 million dollars in
10 revenue to local businesses and industry because
11 of this, that is a major impact on a county like
12 Putnam County. A hundred plus jobs is a major
13 impact on Putnam County.
14 Some of the larger counties in the state,
15 it doesn't mean anything, they don't worry about
16 it. But we certainly do.
17 So on behalf of the Board of County
18 Commissioners, I would ask that you take into
19 consideration the resolutions that they have
20 passed, numerous ones, that have been presented
21 to you, and ask that you would take that into
22 consideration in any future action.
23 And we concur, I think, that it is now in
24 the hands of the Legislature.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
2 MR. PEOPLES: Good afternoon,
3 Governor Chiles, and members of the Cabinet.
4 My name is Billy Peoples. I have fished on
5 Rodman for over 20 years. But my best day was
6 this past summer when my grandson, seven year
7 old Daniel, came to visit.
8 He had heard me talk about Rodman, and
9 wanted to go. He got up early one morning
10 without a whimper, and after we reinforced
11 ourselves with bacon, eggs, and homemade
12 biscuits, we grabbed our poles and our crickets,
13 and away we went.
14 We launched a bass boat and headed to a
15 spot his grandmother and I had already located a
16 bunch of bluegills. We eased the anchors out
17 and I baited his hook with a cricket. He didn't
18 want to touch the little wiggly things himself.
19 As soon as the cricket disappeared, so did
20 his float. After a mighty struggle, he landed a
21 nice sized bluegill.
22 In the next 2 hours, he caught at least 60,
23 60 as large as your hand. And I know he had
24 untold number of what we call bait stealers,
25 little three finger jobs.
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1 It was difficult, but I had convinced him
2 already that we're just going to keep enough for
3 supper. So we released virtually everything we
4 had caught. And I didn't catch very many.
5 Finally, he looked at me with a serious
6 eye, and said, Grandpa, are you having fun? I
7 could tell his attention span had started to
8 wander, so I suggested we go bass fishing.
9 As we used -- eased through the trees in
10 Blue Springs, we met an elderly gentleman in a
11 row boat. And he had a little dog with him.
12 As we passed by, he took a cut off milk
13 jug, and dipped some water for his dog. Then he
14 scooped up another jug and took a big long
15 drink. Daniel said, yuck. But apparently it
16 seemed to be all right, it didn't have any
17 detrimental affect on either of them.
18 Bass fishing was slow. We had almost given
19 up when I finally had a bite and handed the pole
20 to Daniel. After a mighty tussle, he landed a
21 nice, healthy 13-inch bass. I told him it was
22 too small, and we had to put him back.
23 He was reluctant, but finally, he said,
24 sure looks huge to me, and he gently released
25 him over the side.
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1 I then suggested that we go on a
2 sight-seeing tour. We saw a couple of gators;
3 bald eagles; osprey; limpkins; egrets; great
4 blue herons; and even an old tree that had a
5 whole bunch of holes in it I called apartments,
6 and it was occupied by a colony of noisy
7 purple martins.
8 We put the boat back on the trailer and
9 headed home. The car barely stopped before he
10 bounded out and yelled for attention.
11 I put the keepers and -- light enough for
12 him to hold while we took pictures. And here's
13 a couple of pictures.
14 He recounted to -- his exploits to his
15 grandma and looked at her and said, grandpa sure
16 loves nature.
17 Please save our reservoir.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
19 MS. ANDRY: Governor and Cabinet, my name
20 is Kae Andry. I apologize, this is a school
21 teacher's occupational hazard. I hope you can
22 hear me, because it is an honor to be here in
23 front of you this morning.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good to see you.
25 MS. ANDRY: I have a lot of information
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1 that I have sent to you, and that I can still
2 share with you about property values and wells.
3 I do represent the property owners that own
4 Rodman, and also that vast silent majority that
5 supports keeping Rodman and is opposed to its
6 destruction.
7 Dr. Dale's economic report did talk about
8 property values. Subsequently after that report
9 was issued, the Greenways Commission,
10 Mr. Paul Hacker, real estate expert, to come
11 down, look at our property. He walked around
12 it, and we are going to be substantially
13 affected. We will have little or no market for
14 our property if the reservoir is destroyed. But
15 that's not why we're here.
16 We would not be here -- of course, we're
17 concerned about property values, we're concerned
18 about wells. But I have lived on and I have
19 watched that lake for 30 years.
20 And I spent a year ago Christmas in the
21 Alachua County Law Library reading all of the
22 reports. It took a long time.
23 But I was delighted to see, as Dr. Canfield
24 said, that the report substantiated what I see
25 every day. We have a healthy lake, a valuable
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1 recreational resource, it is a wonderful bird
2 sanctuary.
3 And I would ask you, please, not to be a
4 part of the process of destroying it. We feel
5 that this is the Legislature's prerogative.
6 And I thank you for your time.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
8 MS. WETHERELL: I will go ahead and call up
9 all the people that wish to speak -- oh, I'm
10 sorry. I didn't -- I thought you weren't
11 coming.
12 MS. SNOW: Yes.
13 MS. WETHERELL: One more in opposition.
14 MS. SNOW: Good morning, Governor and
15 Cabinet. My name is Lou Snow. I'm a homeowner
16 on Rodman Reservoir.
17 I'm asking you to vote to save our lake by
18 stopping the DEP from proceeding, and by putting
19 this into the hands of the Legislature which,
20 in turn, would be in the hands of the people.
21 I want to thank Senator Kirkpatrick and
22 Representative Smith from -- for fighting so
23 hard for the people of Florida, and we are
24 depending on you to save this valuable Florida
25 resource.
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1 Thank you.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Call forward Gary Appleson,
4 Marjorie Bieling, Sal Marwick, June Boberdo,
5 Michael Woodward, David Gluckman, and
6 Eva Armstrong.
7 MR. APPLESON: Hello, Governor, and
8 Cabinet. My name is Gary Appleson. I work with
9 Florida Defenders of the Environment, I'll make
10 this brief.
11 I will not get into all the details of why
12 we should restore the Ocklawaha River and its
13 spectacular ecosystem.
14 FDE has spent over 25 years fighting to
15 protect Florida's environment by relying on
16 science and law, public education. Our main
17 focus has been the protection of the
18 Ocklawaha River Valley for this entire time.
19 The effort to protect and restore the
20 Ocklawaha River, as many of you probably know,
21 began with the early efforts to stop the barge
22 canal. When it was finally halted, and all the
23 economic and environmental studies were
24 completed, the five federal agencies, the
25 several state agencies involved, all recommended
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1 that the river be restored.
2 Governor Rubin Askew at the time and the
3 Florida Cabinet voted on and endorsed the
4 restoration plan. However, political
5 manipulation kept the barge canal from being
6 deauthorized until 1990, and thus prevented the
7 restoration plan from being implemented until
8 now.
9 Then in 1992, the Cabinet, after much study
10 and debate, and after touring the area, again
11 voted without dissent to restore the river. The
12 vote was followed by another exhaustive study
13 that substantiated earlier studies.
14 And now here we are again for the third
15 time.
16 It is worth noting that all of the studies
17 that have been done, all the agencies, state and
18 federal, that have looked at this issue, and the
19 commissions that have been established, like the
20 Canal Lands Advisory Committee, never has one,
21 not one, ever called for or recommended keeping
22 Rodman pool.
23 It is hard to fully appreciate the passion
24 of those that have come here today to ask that
25 you do not stand in the way of restoration of
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1 the river, unless you have some understanding of
2 its history. And the history of the whole
3 issue. Now, of course, is not the time to
4 detail that history.
5 Let me at least state that Florida
6 Defenders of the Environment has been, and
7 continues to be affiliated, with thousands of
8 people who have done -- who have donated
9 thousands of hours of time and expertise over
10 the past 25 years in an unending and honorable
11 effort to ensure that the Ocklawaha River
12 ecosystem, including its tributaries, springs,
13 and thousands of acres of floodplain forest is
14 restored.
15 Our passion comes from a desire to restore
16 one of Florida's great river systems and from
17 the belief that the Ocklawaha River belongs to
18 all Floridians as part of our national
19 heritage.
20 We do not believe it is a political issue.
21 It is clearly an environmental issue. I will
22 not go into, as I said, all the details listing
23 the environmental damage resulting from
24 Rodman Reservoir.
25 Regarding the economic issue that has been
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1 raised concerning what is officially referred to
2 as the closed Buckman Lock, keep the dam
3 scenario, the DEP quarterly status report in
4 responding to the specific requests show that a
5 restoration is still the least expensive
6 option. FDE economists fully concur in that
7 conclusion.
8 Closing -- oh, excuse me. Florida
9 Defenders of the Environment has never believed
10 that the reasons for restoration are dependent
11 on economics.
12 The overriding environmental reasons for
13 removing the dam should still be controlling.
14 And, of course, once the river is restored, it
15 will take care of itself, at no cost to
16 Floridians. Rodman Pool will always require
17 perpetual and costly maintenance.
18 Florida Defenders of the Environment
19 request that you accept the DEP quarterly status
20 report, and do nothing to defer or delay the
21 ongoing efforts towards restoration.
22 It is the freeing of the river from the
23 shackles of Rodman Dam, and the reversing of the
24 ongoing, continuing environmental damage that
25 has driven the 25-year effort to free the
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1 Ocklawaha.
2 Florida Defenders of the Environment has
3 economists here and legal experts that would be
4 glad to answer any of the questions you may
5 have. We strongly agree with some of the
6 interpretations -- strongly disagree with some
7 of the interpretations that have been presented
8 preceding mine regarding the conclusions of the
9 DEP economic and environmental report.
10 Thank you very much.
11 MS. BIELING: Governor Chiles, members of
12 the Cabinet, I'm Marjorie Bieling. I live in
13 Marion County.
14 And, Governor Chiles, it occurred to me,
15 we've got to quit meeting this way. This is the
16 third time we've been up here on this same
17 thing, and I sense from your remarks at the
18 onset that you feel the same way.
19 By we -- it's a different we this time.
20 But there are a lot of us out there that want
21 the river restored.
22 Could I just ask the folks that came up on
23 the bus this morning to stand so you know that
24 we're still out there.
25 There's one thing that I would like for you
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1 to see. We're showing the next generation how
2 to get to Tallahassee. I think we have, what,
3 six students here from Putnam County on behalf
4 of restoring the river.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Are they going to
6 need a note?
7 MS. BIELING: We -- probably so. Would you
8 write them one, please?
9 Oh. Guy Marwick is unable to come today.
10 He's the Director of the Silver River Museum,
11 and Guy has written a letter for each of you,
12 and Ms. Wetherell --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
14 MR. WOODWARD: Governor Chiles, members of
15 the Cabinet, my name is Michael Woodward. I've
16 lived in Putnam County for most of the last
17 24 years.
18 I practice law there, too, but I'm not here
19 today as an attorney representing a client.
20 Rather, I'm here in my capacity as the immediate
21 past chairman of the Putnam County Environmental
22 Leaders Council. That's a group of local
23 citizens who support restoration of the
24 Oklawaha River, and we thank this body for its
25 past and continued support of that.
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1 This is not, and I hope it does not, become
2 a political issue. It has been, and I hope it
3 remains, a policy issue.
4 This state has a policy of maintaining and
5 restoring ecosystems. It's a good policy for
6 the state of Florida. It is, in the long run, a
7 very good policy for Putnam County as well.
8 We look forward to a future in
9 Putnam County where economic development is not
10 limited to bulldozers and smokestacks, and where
11 tourism is not limited to bass fishing. A
12 restored Ocklawaha River will be a vital part of
13 that future, and of that economy.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
15 MR. TEUTON: Governor Chiles, and the
16 members of the Cabinet, I count this a privilege
17 to come and make my request known before you
18 this afternoon.
19 I was -- I was born and raised in
20 Marion County, 1 mile off the Ocklawaha River.
21 I've hunted and fished around the
22 Ocklawaha River all my life. I'm almost
23 seventy-eight years old now. And I'm -- as I've
24 said, hunted and fished around the Ocklawaha
25 many, many years.
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1 I'm not here to try to bring any more
2 knowledge to you, because I know on the fine
3 points of this issue, you already know them.
4 I do know, however, that it's been a
5 taxpayers' nightmare through the years. And I'm
6 here to request and ask you to let the river run
7 flow, put it back in its bank like it should
8 be.
9 I've hunted -- I've fished on Rodman, I
10 fished on the Ocklawaha, and I can say to you
11 that there's no comparison whatsoever the way
12 the fish was before the dam was put in there.
13 We used to go and -- we used to have a
14 community fish fry at Gore's Landing, which most
15 of you know where it is, on the Ocklawaha.
16 And do you know where the fish was the
17 morning of the fish fry? They were in the
18 Ocklawaha River. The river was just full of
19 fish. You could catch them any time you went.
20 You didn't have to have a boat, you could stand
21 on the bank and catch them.
22 And I -- I thank you for this privilege.
23 And I hope and pray that you will return the
24 river to its natural course and let it run free
25 forever.
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1 Thank you.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
3 MS. ROBERTS: Hi. Governor Chiles, and the
4 Cabinet. My name is June Roberts. I'm from
5 Putnam County, and I very much -- I very much
6 want the river restored.
7 I would like you to look also at what could
8 be earned by a restored Ocklawaha River, not
9 only what would not any longer be earned by the
10 reservoir. I'd like you also to look at the
11 jobs that could be generated by a restored
12 river.
13 Putnam County right now is the fourth to
14 eleventh poorest in the state. If the reservoir
15 was going to save its -- save Putnam County, it
16 would have saved it by now.
17 In Putnam County, it's a very controversial
18 issue, and many people are afraid to say they're
19 for the river. And many of the ones that
20 couldn't come today with us are working today.
21 There's been a recent resurgence of
22 Palatka's and the county's history, interest in
23 the history. All of these articles in the paper
24 are about new buildings being built and how much
25 we're relying on our history. And the people
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1 are kind of coming at -- of age, so to speak,
2 with -- with the historical issues.
3 One of the studies that was done by the
4 Chamber of Commerce points out how important the
5 history is to Palatka, the buildings, and our
6 natural resources. The Ocklawaha River was, for
7 Palatka and Putnam County, a source of tourism
8 back around the turn of the century.
9 And we need to have the boats running up
10 and down the Ocklawaha River again to make
11 Palatka stand out. The -- downtown Palatka has
12 already accepted the paddle wheel boat as their
13 logo, they have agreed to renovate their
14 buildings to the steamboat era. They would like
15 to see a paddle wheel boat down on the river
16 front.
17 We have a new group that has organized to
18 pull all the aspects -- all the organizations
19 and individuals together to find out what all
20 the organizations are attempting to do.
21 We have several people from the
22 City Commission who have been attending -- the
23 mayor's been attending. We've just had a
24 wonderful turnout.
25 I'd like to ask you to please return this
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1 to Putnam County. We need it vitally for jobs,
2 for hope for our county. And I'm speaking for
3 all of these people.
4 Please, please give us a new chance.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
6 MR. SPEES: My name is Rand Spees. I live
7 in Welaka, Florida. I'm a boat builder there.
8 From my shop window, you can see where the
9 Welaka -- where the Ocklawaha River comes into
10 the St. Johns River. I know you've heard it all
11 before, but I bring something you might not have
12 heard.
13 A large group of -- of representatives from
14 the ecotourism industry left my dock two days
15 ago to tour the Ocklawaha River for the first
16 time.
17 Ecotourism has -- has showed the largest
18 potential for any other types of tourism in the
19 state. They were thrilled by what they saw in
20 the Ocklawaha River.
21 The next day, they went and did the
22 Silver Run at Silver Springs, and they were even
23 more thrilled. They came back to talk to me
24 about it, because I was mentioning that the
25 river may be open soon, and they were thinking
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1 about using our area as a base for ecotours up
2 and down the river.
3 So this is a mighty economic potential for
4 us in the area. There's a lot of people in the
5 area that are afraid to speak out about being
6 for the Ocklawaha River. But I can assure you,
7 they are there.
8 Thank you very much.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
10 MR. GLUCKMAN: Governor, members of the
11 Cabinet, my name is David Gluckman. I'm here on
12 behalf of the Florida League of Anglers and Save
13 the Manatee Club.
14 The Board of Directors of the Florida
15 League of Anglers has supported the restoration
16 of the Ocklawaha River for a number of years on
17 the basis that it is a better fishing experience
18 for more Floridians than the reservoir which is
19 presently conducted, and they have supported
20 restoration since their formation twelve years
21 ago.
22 Save the Manatee Club has a different
23 experience. Nine manatees have been killed in
24 the vicinity of the Rodman Dam area in the locks
25 in the last ten years. Five of those, they have
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1 specific evidence have been actually crushed in
2 the lock system.
3 In addition to that, there are a number of
4 springs that fed the Ocklawaha River that are
5 presently under that reservoir, none of which
6 are available for the use of manatees for winter
7 habitat.
8 The restoration of the Ocklawaha River and
9 the closing of the dam system, either removing
10 the locks, or at least cementing them in place,
11 would go a long way for protecting manatees in
12 that area.
13 And the restoration of the Ocklawaha River
14 and allowing it to be free flowing would restore
15 the springs to the available use of manatees in
16 the wintertime as they have historically all the
17 way up to Silver Springs.
18 And on that basis, we would certainly hope
19 that you would continue your support in that
20 direction.
21 Thank you very much.
22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning, Governor,
23 members of the Cabinet, Eva Armstrong with the
24 Audubon Society.
25 Audubon's goal of restoring the
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1 Ocklawaha River has been a well-known goal for
2 many years. And we just urge you to use the
3 word and accept the report.
4 MR. FULLER: Manley Fuller representing the
5 Florida Wildlife Federation. I also served as a
6 speaker's appointee on the Cross Florida
7 Greenways Commission.
8 We held -- there were public hearings held
9 during the -- when that commission was in
10 effect. We held -- there were public hearings
11 held in Tallahassee, Ocala, and Palatka. And a
12 frequent topic of discussion by the testimony
13 from the public dealt with this -- this
14 subject.
15 I kept a count -- I attended all three
16 hearings. I kept a count. The majority of the
17 people who spoke on this issue in Tallahassee
18 favored restoring the river.
19 In Ocala, the majority of the people who
20 spoke were in favor of the river. And I -- and
21 I thought it would go the other way in Palatka,
22 and I kept a very close count. But the people
23 who spoke in Palatka, the majority of them spoke
24 in favor of restoring the river.
25 Now, this was -- people can say this was
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1 several years ago. But I did want to bring that
2 to your attention.
3 The Florida Wildlife Federation has
4 supported restoring the river since the 1970s.
5 We think that the -- we strongly support hunting
6 and fishing. We think that the restored
7 floodplain would provide additional hunting
8 opportunities.
9 The -- if you see -- go back and look at
10 old photographs of the Ocklawaha River, you can
11 see pictures of people holding stringers up of
12 fish from their hands down to the ground.
13 That's well -- that's well documented.
14 Long before there was a Rodman Reservoir,
15 Palatka was a famous place for bass fishing.
16 We strongly support the restoration of the
17 river.
18 One of the issues that keeps being brought
19 up is -- regards bald eagles. Bald eagles do
20 occur in and around Rodman Reservoir. That's a
21 fact.
22 They also occur up and down the St. Johns
23 River and up and down the Ocklawaha River. I
24 spoke to Dr. Petra Wood, who did her doctoral
25 dissertation on bald eagles in the -- in that
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1 region.
2 And she said she was surprised that there
3 was not more -- there were not more eagle
4 activity at Rodman than there was, based on the
5 regional density of eagles.
6 She concluded that the -- that the -- one
7 of the factors that might have kept the eagle
8 numbers down at Rodman was the large number of
9 floating logs in the pool, and the fact that the
10 eagles there were utilizing the lower quality of
11 forage, which is primarily small turtles, that
12 they crawl up on top of the floating logs.
13 And she was -- she was surprised that
14 the -- the number of fish that the eagles
15 utilized in the other nests was much higher.
16 So she was -- she felt that when she began
17 her study, she thought that there had been a lot
18 more eagle productivity at Rodman than there
19 actually was.
20 So, yes, eagles are important. But eagles
21 occur up and down the river, both the St. Johns
22 and the Ocklawaha. Just wanted to give you that
23 information.
24 Thank you very much.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
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1 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes it.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there a
3 motion to accept the report?
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second?
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without discussion -- without objection
9 then, we'll accept the report.
10 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
11 That's our agenda. Thank you.
12 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
13 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
14 *
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 160 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 23RD day of FEBRUARY, 1996.
17
18
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
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