Cabinet
Affairs |
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5 T H E C A B I N E T
6 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
10 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
11 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
12 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
13 _________________________________________________________
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15 The above agencies came to be heard before THE
FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Chiles presiding, in the
16 Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee,
Florida, on Tuesday, August 12, 1997, commencing at
17 approximately 9:50 a.m.
18 Reported by:
19 DEBRA R. KRICK
Court Reporter
20 Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
21 ________________________________________________________
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PREMIER REPORTING
23 6753 THOMASVILLE ROAD, SUITE 108
TALLAHASSEE, FL 32312
24 904-894-0828
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1 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
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3 LAWTON CHILES
4 Governor
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6 BOB CRAWFORD
7 Commissioner of Agriculture
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9 BOB MILLIGAN
10 Comptroller
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12 SANDRA B. MORTHAM
13 Secretary of State
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15 BOB BUTTERWORTH
16 Attorney General
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18 BILL NELSON
19 Treasurer
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21 FRANK T. BROGAN
22 Commissioner of Education
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1 I N D E X
2 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
3 (Presented by Tom Herndon
Executive Director)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
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1 Approved 11
6 2 Approved 11
3 Approved 12
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
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(Presented by Tin Tinsley)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
4 1 Approved 13
2 Approved 13
5 3 Approved 13
4 Approved 14
6 5 Approved 14
6 Approved 14
7 7 Approved 15
8 Approved 15
8 9 Approved 16
10 Approved 16
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1 DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' FINANCE:
2 (Presented by Carlos Rainwater)
3 ITEM ACTION PAGE
1 Approved 20
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
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(Presented by Robert L. Bedford)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
4 1 Approved 21
2 Approved 21
5 3 Approved 22
4 Approved 23
6 5 Approved 26
6 Approved 26
7 7 Approved 29
8 Withdrawn 29
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
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(Presented by Robert Bradley)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
4 1 Approved 32
2 Approved 32
5 3 Approved 32
4 Approved 33
6 5 Approved 33
6 Approved 33
7 7 Withdrawn 34
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
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(Presented by Robert Bradley)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
4 1 Approved 35
2 Approved 35
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1 TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND:
2 (Presented by Secretary Virginia Wetherell)
3 ITEM ACTION PAGE
1 Approved 36
4 2 Approved 36
3 Approved 36
5 4 Approved 37
5 Approved 37
6 6 Approved 37
7 Approved 37
7 8 Approved 38
9 Approved 38
8 10 Approved 38
11 Approved 38
9 12 Approved 39
13 Approved 39
10 14 Approved 39
15 Approved 39
11 16 Approved 125
17 Approved 126
12 18 Approved 126
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning. Our invocation
3 this morning will be led by Pastor Michael Ellis of
4 the Church of the Holy Spirit, and that will be
5 followed by the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag.
6 (Invocation by Pastor Michael Ellis of the
7 Church of the Holy Spirit, and Pledge of Allegiance
8 were held.)
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: I want to recognize
10 Commissioner Brogan to introduce school-related
11 employee of the year.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, Governor and
13 members of the Cabinet.
14 (Whereupon, school-related employees were
15 recognized by the Governor and Cabinet.)
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you. Congratulations.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
2 Administration.
3 MR. HERNDON: Governor and members of the board,
4 item number one, the approval of the minutes of the
5 meeting held on June 26th, 1997.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I will move it.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
9 objection, it's approved.
10 MR. HERNDON: Item number two is the Department
11 of Chair of the Florida Commission on Hurricane Loss
12 Projection Methodology for 1997-98. The recommended
13 appointee is Ms. Elsie Crowell, insurance
14 commissioner and consumer advocate.
15 MR. MILLER: I move it.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I second it.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
18 objection, it's approved.
19 MR. HERNDON: Item number three is the report
20 submitted by the executive director of the State
21 Board of Performance for the months of May and June
22 of 1997.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
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1 objection, that's approved.
2 MR. HERNDON: That completes the agenda.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Bond finance.
2 MR. TINSLEY: Item number one is approval of
3 minutes of the June 26th meeting.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Moved.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
7 objection, approved.
8 MR. TINSLEY: Item number two is adoption of a
9 resolution authorizing redemption and fees of a
10 pollution control bond and State-issued for the City
11 of Jacksonville.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
15 objection, it's approved.
16 MR. TINSLEY: Item number three, report of award
17 for competitive sale of $2,880,000 for parking
18 revenue bonds from Florida A & M University.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
22 objection, it's approved.
23 MR. TINSLEY: Item number four, report of
24 award for competitive sale of $55,230,000 in
25 Alligator Alley revenue bonds.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second it.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
4 objection, it's approved.
5 MR. TINSLEY: Item number five, report of award
6 for competitive sale of $200 million of right-of-way
7 bonds.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
11 objection, it's approved.
12 MR. TINSLEY: Item number six, report of award
13 for competitive sale of $45,685,000 university system
14 improvement revenue refunding bond.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I second, and note
17 that the extraordinary low interest cost rate on that
18 particular housing project item; albeit it is a
19 long-term bond, I understand that, but that's
20 directly reflected in the competitive aspects of it.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: What was the rate?
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: 4.075.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Very good.
24 Moved and seconded; without objection, it's
25 approved.
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1 MR. TINSLEY: Item number seven is report of
2 award for a competitive sale of $28,725,000, Florida
3 Housing Finance Agency Homeowner mortgage revenue
4 bonds. I believe that's the issue the General is
5 speaking to.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move that item.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You are right. Thank
8 you.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
10 objection, it's approved?
11 MR. TINSLEY: Item number eight, report of award
12 is a competitive sale of $14,380,000, Florida
13 Housing Finance Agency housing revenue bonds.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
15 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
17 objection, it's approved.
18 MR. TINSLEY: Item number nine, report of award
19 for Competitive sale of $9,350,000 Florida Housing
20 Finance Agency housing revenue bonds.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Approved and seconded without
24 objection --
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Let me correct myself. Of
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1 course, that was item seven I was referring to, but
2 it is also useful to know eight and nine, which are
3 also Housing Finance Agency bonds that were
4 competing, and that -- their rates, and you will
5 notice the rates on item 10 where we negotiated.
6 MR. TINSLEY: Yes, sir. And items 10A through D
7 --
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: I don't think we approved
9 nine. Let's -- moved and seconded; without
10 objection, nine is to be approved.
11 MR. TINSLEY: And item number 10A through D, is
12 report of awards for housing revenue bonds done on a
13 negotiated sale basis.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I will move items 10A
15 through D with the same note that you can see the
16 significant difference between negotiated and
17 competitive. So I hope we will continue down the
18 competitive path on as many of those issues as we
19 can.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's moved and --
21 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Seconded without objection,
23 now, that's approved.
24 I am delighted to see when we think how long it
25 took us to get one done, it looks like maybe that it
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1 is like our regular bonding thing now that we have
2 had a little breakthrough, and the Board must be
3 looking at them differently and certainly the market
4 seems to be adopting them pretty good.
5 MR. TINSLEY: Yes, sir. We have taken this --
6 had the W.R. Lazar (ph), the Division's financial
7 adviser work with the agency to try to identify those
8 issues that makes sense to be sold on a competitive
9 basis. As a result, we have had three of them on
10 basis.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Terrific. Thank you very
12 much, and thank the Board for us, too.
13 MR. DANEK: Yes, sir.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Veterans' Affairs.
2 MR. RAINWATER: Good morning, Governor Chiles.
3 Good morning, Cabinet.
4 This morning, we are appearing before you to
5 request -- recommend the approval of the site
6 selection criteria for the third Florida State
7 veterans nursing home facility. As you know, we have
8 our facility in Daytona Beach, which has been
9 operational now for four years, and we have underwent
10 the construction of the Pasco County Veterans Nursing
11 Home, which you approved last year.
12 Basically, the federal government funds 65
13 percent of the construction cost of these state
14 veterans nursing homes, and pays a per diem rate of
15 -- which represents about $42 per day of -- which
16 represents 42 percent of the daily cost of care for
17 veteran residents of those nursing homes. This
18 represents a significant savings to the State in the
19 care of these aging infirmed veterans.
20 In compiling the criteria, we have had many
21 inputs, including a public hearing on May 20th in
22 Daytona Beach; and there are some differences in the
23 criteria we are recommending for approval today as
24 opposed to the past criteria. Those differences are,
25 we are providing for a 12-acre site to accommodate
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1 some of the environmental interests over and above
2 the sites that were recommended before. So it will
3 be 12 acres of donated land.
4 We are requiring a letter of intent from all
5 jurisdictions which intend to apply for the site of
6 the nursing home. Last time, we received some
7 concern that some jurisdictions did not realize that
8 they were up against some fairly heavy hitters in the
9 process; and they informed us if they had known what
10 the competition was, they might not have expended the
11 resources to go through the full presentation
12 process. So with this letter of intent process, we
13 are attempting to eliminate that concern.
14 Weight will be given to the number of available
15 beds for veterans in the various jurisdictions that
16 intend to apply. That is, one factor will be whether
17 or not there are enough existing beds for veterans
18 under the VA's nursing home program in those areas
19 that intend to apply.
20 We have revised the weighting of the distance
21 from the proposed site to the closest VA medical
22 facility, that will be given considerable weight. And
23 we have taken all the subjectivity out of that
24 process and made it a totally objective process.
25 The intent here was to take subjectivity and
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1 judgment out of the site selection process, be
2 totally objective with the view toward giving the
3 best and most efficient, the best care to this aging
4 veterans population.
5 This morning, we ask your approval of the site
6 selection criteria which we have placed before you.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Earl, as I understand it, you
8 have held a lot of hearings on this, and obviously
9 you have taken a lot of fire out of this. I don't
10 see along the agenda the people that want to object
11 or speak to it. Thank you for going through that
12 process.
13 On the face of it, it looks like you have got a
14 very good process. We want to hear more about it
15 later, but thank you for taking all of that time and
16 listening to all the people that you have done.
17 MR. RAINWATER: Thank you.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a question?
19 Is there a motion?
20 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
23 objection, it's approved.
24 MR. RAINWATER: Thank you.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Education.
2 MR. BEDFORD: Governor Chiles, members of the
3 State Board of Education, good morning.
4 Item one is the minutes of the meetings held May
5 13th, May 28th, June 12th and June 26th. The June
6 12th meeting, the aides received a corrected copy
7 today with some technical amendments made to it, and
8 I believe you have a copy up there.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move the minutes as
10 corrected.
11 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
13 objection, it's approved.
14 MR. BEDFORD: Item two, amendment of the
15 assignment of the lease between the State Board of
16 Education and South Florida Public Telecommunications
17 Inc., WXEL.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move for approval.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
21 objection, it's approved.
22 MR. BEDFORD: Item --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: I don't know. I think maybe
24 we ought to hear from her. No one should have to
25 come all the way up here and not have a chance to
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1 enlighten our day.
2 MS. LAUGHLIN: I have got to get my money's
3 worth.
4 Governor and members of the Cabinet, first of
5 all, I accept this as a very sacred trust. It is
6 something I do not take lightly, and I make the
7 commitment to work in collaboration with the other
8 institutions in that area to serve the people the
9 best way that we possibly can.
10 For me, it has not been a win or lose; it's been
11 an effort to try to make it a win/win, and I think
12 that this is what is going to happen.
13 So thank you very much.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
15 MR. BEDFORD: Item three, the FIRN Information
16 System of Florida Incorporated contract.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
20 objection, that's approved.
21 MR. BEDFORD: Item four, FIRN Encyclopedia
22 Burtanica contract.
23 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
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1 objection, it's approved.
2 MR. BEDFORD: Item five, Best Practices
3 Interactive CD-ROM contract for the science, reading
4 and social studies materials. We have a short
5 presentation for you at the request of aides.
6 Pete Linquy (ph) is going to come up, and we
7 will present to you the mathematics CD and
8 demonstrate for you a couple of the items that
9 students would be working with in their schools. You
10 will readily see that this ties directly to the
11 Sunshine State standards, and you will see that this
12 is quite an assistance to teachers in the classroom.
13 I was fortunate enough to get one of the very
14 first ones when they first came out and took them
15 home, and we are not going to demonstrate the problem
16 I had trouble with, because -- but it's -- I believe
17 you have a copy, I believe the aides have a copy, and
18 it's something worth looking at for you.
19 Pete, if you want to say a few words.
20 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Governor, while
21 they are setting up, I would just like to also
22 mention that they have done a great job
23 collaboratively with the public libraries and made
24 these CD-ROMs available in the libraries as well, so
25 basically everyone has an opportunity, either at
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1 school or in the public library system.
2 MR. LINQUY: Good morning. I just wanted to let
3 you know we are going to show you the math CD, which
4 is part of the series that we are hoping to develop
5 coming before you today with science, social studies
6 and reading. These -- the ones we are showing you
7 today, mathematics, has 25 mathematics activities
8 that reference the benchmarks for mathematics on the
9 Sunshine State standards. The CD also has a database
10 of information and other resources available to
11 teachers in teaching mathematics, and the CD runs on
12 both on MacIntosh and Windows formats. It has been
13 disseminated free throughout the public education
14 system in Florida.
15 I wanted to give you a brief demo of the
16 product. This is Debra James from the Office of
17 Education Technology. Debra is one of the people
18 intimately involved in the development of this
19 product.
20 MS. JAMES: Good morning.
21 (Demonstration of CD-ROM for the Cabinet.)
22 MS. JAMES: Thank you.
23 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The beauty of this, as
25 you can probably see, is not only the fact that it's
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1 interactive, but it's aligned completely to the
2 Sunshine State standards. We have also developed --
3 and that's been disseminated over a year ago, such as
4 the CD on the Florida Writes Test, and that got such
5 an overwhelming response, that we have now completed
6 that with mathematics.
7 And as you can see the contract before you today
8 is to develop an interactive video such as this
9 aligned with these new standards in science, reading
10 and social studies. The Litmus Test was the Florida
11 Writes CD, and this one has been disseminated to a
12 degree to get feedback. And also we use feedback
13 from teachers in its production. And the reaction
14 thus far has been very positive. People are looking
15 for ways to find new information to develop the
16 standards.
17 We also have a program out there called
18 Innertech 2,000, which now is posted on the Internet
19 and allows teachers to bring up any of the Sunshine
20 State Standards and gives them a host of lesson
21 planning opportunities, assessment of practices that
22 they can use.
23 The idea is to continue to try to drive new
24 technology, not just in the teaching, learning, but
25 into the preparation for teaching and learning. And
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1 we hope that these CD's will go a long way in that
2 regard.
3 MR. BEDFORD: They have been disseminated to all
4 schools. Each school has two copies. Each district
5 has eight copies. Secretary Mortham told you the
6 libraries have received them. The colleges of
7 education have received them, as well as community
8 colleges.
9 We recommend approval.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I will move approval.
11 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
13 objection, it's approved.
14 Very good demonstration. Thank you.
15 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
16 Item six, Reading Recovery Program guidelines.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
20 objection, it's approved.
21 I note that my understanding is that we have --
22 I was moaning the small amount of money that we got
23 in this, and then somebody told me that we have less
24 applications right now than we have money.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Not surprising, though. I
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1 think once people become more and more aware of the
2 fact, Governor, that these dollars are available,
3 they will ask for them. And in our upcoming budget,
4 we are going to request even more money for the
5 programs like this.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. You know, I -- if
7 anybody has an opportunity to visit one of those
8 programs, I have been to a couple of them, and I have
9 seen nothing that gives me more heart that you can
10 pick up children that are not, you know,
11 comprehending or not reading at the level, and then
12 about six months time that one-on-one thing that you
13 can actually bring them up to where they are at or
14 above where the average would be.
15 To me, this is the best kind of dropout money
16 that we could ever spend, taking that child in the
17 first grade or just at that time and bringing them up
18 to where they can be properly.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir. And with the
20 idea now that we have got to get out of the business
21 of using social promotion on a large-scale basis and
22 that children have got to be able to read and write
23 and calculate mathematically with their peers to move
24 on successfully, I think the idea of giving people
25 some help in that regard, and helping children who
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1 have been below for so long reach that level of peer
2 skill is long overdue.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: I have never seen a program
4 that turned on teachers the way this did, too. The
5 teachers that I was talking to, some of them said
6 they have been in the business 25 years, never felt
7 excited about being able to go to work in the morning
8 to know that they could spend one-on-one, a little
9 time with a child and see, you know -- the
10 methodology they use is totally different from what
11 we are used to using. The different ways that they
12 bring that vocabulary to the child, the different
13 techniques that they use. But, boy, it's amazing
14 what it does.
15 Thank you.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I don't know if I did, but
17 I will move the item if I had not.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
20 objection, it's approved.
21 MR. BEDFORD: Item seven is an amendment to rule
22 6A-1.09412, course requirements grade 6 through 12,
23 basic and adult secondary program.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
2 objection, it's approved.
3 MR. BEDFORD: Item eight, we ask permission --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I probably -- I am sorry,
5 Bob. I probably should mention that that particular
6 item also aligns the course descriptors to the
7 Sunshine State Standards to make certain that when
8 the middle school and high school courses are
9 selected for credit generation, that they are aligned
10 and they are descriptors for the standard.
11 MR. BEDFORD: Item eight, we are asking
12 permission to withdraw.
13 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move withdrawal.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's withdrawn.
16 MR. BEDFORD: Item nine, amendment to rule
17 6A-4.0244, specialization requirements for the
18 endorsement in English to speakers of other languages
19 academic class.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
22 objection, it's approved.
23 We approved item seven?
24 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: We did.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
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1 MR. BEDFORD: Item 10, repeal of rules.
2 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
5 objection, it's approved.
6 MR. BEDFORD: Item 11, Valencia Community
7 College request for establishment of a special
8 purpose center in Winter Park, Florida.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
12 objection, it's approved.
13 MR. BEDFORD: Item 12 is an amendment, rule
14 6C-7.001, tuition, fee schedule and percentage of
15 cost. This was originally passed as an emergency
16 rule. This is putting it in the rule.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
19 objection, it's approved.
20 MR. BEDFORD: Item 13, appointment to the Board
21 of Trustees, Central Florida Community College,
22 Cynthia E. Donor (ph), Gloria Ann M. Mann, Cynthia A.
23 Hall to May 31st, 2001.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
2 objection, it's approved.
3 MR. BEDFORD: Item 14, appointment to the
4 District Board of Trustees of the Seminole Community
5 College, Edward L. Blackshear, May 31, 1999.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
7 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
9 objection, it's approved.
10 MR. BEDFORD: That concludes the business.
11 Thank you.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Administration Commission.
2 MR. BRADLEY: Item number one, recommend
3 approval of the minutes for the meeting held June
4 26th, 1997.
5 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
8 objection, it's approved.
9 MR. BRADLEY: Item number two, recommend
10 approval of the transfer of general revenue
11 appropriations in the Department of Children and
12 Family.
13 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
16 objection, it's approved.
17 MR. BRADLEY: Item number three, recommend
18 approval of the transfer of general revenue
19 appropriations in the Department of Elder Affairs.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
21 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
23 objection, it's approved.
24 MR. BRADLEY: Item number four, recommend
25 approval for the transfer of general revenue
33
1 appropriations for the Department of Health.
2 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
5 objection, it's approved.
6 MR. BRADLEY: Item number five, recommend
7 approval of the transfer of general revenue
8 appropriations under item A and authorization for
9 positions in excess under item B in the Agency for
10 Health Care Administration.
11 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
14 objection, it's approved.
15 MR. BRADLEY: Item number six, recommend
16 approval of the temporary transfer of monies from
17 trust funds in the State Treasury to the Department
18 of Environmental Protection.
19 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Moved.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
22 objection, it's approved.
23 MR. BRADLEY: Item number seven, we request
24 withdrawal of this item.
25 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move withdrawal.
34
1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I will second that.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
3 objection, it's been withdrawn.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Florida Land and Water
2 Adjudication Commission.
3 MR. BRADLEY: Item number one requests approval
4 of the minutes of the June 26th, 1997 Commission
5 meeting.
6 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
8 objection, it's approved.
9 MR. BRADLEY: Item number two is a request
10 acceptance of the report on the Save Our Everglades
11 Program. Estes Whitfield is here if there are any
12 questions.
13 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move acceptance of
14 the report.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN:
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded; without
18 objection, it's approved.
19 Thank you, sir.
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36
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Trustees.
2 MS. WETHERELL: Item one are minutes.
3 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded --
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- without objection, it's
7 approved.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Item two, an option agreement
9 for Coupon Bight CARL project.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
13 objection, it's approved.
14 MS. WETHERELL: Item three, two purchase
15 agreements of the Coupon Bight CARL project.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
17 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
19 objections, it's approved.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Item four, two option agreements
21 for a Dade County Archipelago CARL project.
22 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second with a request that
24 she say Archipelago again.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Archipelago. I told somebody on
37
1 staff you would do that.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
3 objection, it's approved.
4 MS. WETHERELL: Item five, an option agreement
5 for Archie Carr Turtle Refuge --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Now, I have got you, don't
7 I?
8 MS. WETHERELL: You got me.
9 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
12 objection, it's approved.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Item six, an option agreement
14 for the Florida Keys Ecosystem CARL project.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
17 objection, it's approved.
18 MS. WETHERELL: Item seven, three option
19 agreements for the Florida Keys Ecosystem CARL
20 project.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
22 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
24 objection, it's approved.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Item eight, an option agreement
38
1 for the Wekiva-Ocala Greenway CARL project.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
4 objection, it's approved.
5 MS. WETHERELL: Item nine, three option
6 agreements for the Rookery Bay CARL project.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
10 objection, it's approved.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10, assignment of an option
12 agreement for Paynes Prairie CARL project.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
16 objection, it's approved.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Item 11 is an option agreement
18 for Dudley Farms addition.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
22 objection, it's approved.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Item 12 is a land exchange
24 agreement and an ingress, egress easement.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
39
1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
3 objection, it's approved.
4 MS. WETHERELL: Item 13, we are recommending
5 approval of an offer to purchase a RICO property in
6 acceptance of the highest and best offer.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
8 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
10 objection, it's approved.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Item 14 is a conveyance.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
15 objection, it's approved.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Item 15 is City of Belle Glade
17 purchase of a state-owned parcel of land.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded; without
21 objection, it's approved.
22 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 16, we are
23 recommending approval subject to conditions of a
24 420-acre tract of land in Walton County. It's a
25 determination that it no longer needs to be preserved
40
1 in furtherance of the intent of the P 2000 Act.
2 Trustees, what I would like to do is, we have
3 got a long list of people for and against the
4 project. The Department of Community Affairs, by
5 statute, was given a lead on the development of a
6 plan. So I would like to ask Jim Murley to briefly
7 walk you through the process, and then we will -- at
8 a suggestion made to me earlier, we will limit the
9 speakers to 20 minutes per side.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Very well.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Secretary Murley.
12 SECRETARY MURLEY: Good morning, Governor,
13 members of the Cabinet. My name is Jim Murley,
14 Secretary of Department of Community Affairs.
15 I will be briefly summarizing a letter that I
16 provided your staff yesterday. I have seven copies,
17 those are an addition to your record, and there has
18 been a lot done since your momentous decision in '92
19 to buy this land, a lot of hard work.
20 There are still some valid concerns by all the
21 parties, and I recognize that. But at the
22 Secretary's request working on this project and from
23 my own personal standpoint, I have been involved with
24 this project since the day of the sale; and working
25 with the interagency management committee that you
41
1 first asked to look at this, I had the pleasure of
2 serving at the Governor's appointment on the South
3 Walton County Conservation Development Trust. As
4 Secretary, it was my responsibility to assist the
5 Ecosystem management study that was done under State
6 legislation.
7 So I come to you, members of the Cabinet, with
8 that background, and with an overall feeling that
9 what we are really about here today, recognizing the
10 valid differences of opinion; and the concerns about
11 precedent is that, there was some -- we sat down and
12 thought we were doing the right thing in 1992, and we
13 talked about how we could address the County's
14 concerns; and we have been about that since then. We
15 have done that through your directions at various
16 points.
17 The Legislature has spoken to this issue, and
18 that's what I have tried to outline in the letter,
19 four different times, twice specifically only for the
20 south Walton County parcels.
21 So we feel that we are before you with a package
22 which is one step on the road. We have been through
23 several, including redrawing the CARL boundary, your
24 acceptance of that boundary, review by different
25 various agencies with responsibility, review by the
42
1 land management advisory committee. And there will
2 be more steps.
3 Your vote today does not dispose of land. It
4 acknowledges a recommendation to you from various
5 parties which are outlined in the letter that,
6 pursuant to the intent of P 2000, this land is no
7 longer necessary for ownership by the State.
8 And then some very hard work has yet to be done
9 to prepare a disposition plan, which has to be
10 brought back to you. And you will have further
11 advice, and you will deliberate on that.
12 So this is that step on a road that we first
13 started out when we had a great opportunity, and you
14 took the advice of many people, you took that
15 momentous step to buy for the State of Florida some
16 very, very valuable land for future generations; and
17 we have all benefited from that.
18 And the recommendations include buying more
19 land, over 1,600 acres of additional land would be
20 bought, and the recommendation for disposal is now
21 down to 420 acres of which only 179 would be put to a
22 development use, either public or private. The
23 remaining acreage of that 420 would be protected by
24 easement covenant and deed restriction and permit.
25 So we believe this is a balanced response. It's
43
1 consistent with legislative intent. It's consistent
2 with your past decisions.
3 I can tell you as Department of Community
4 Affairs that Walton County has a plan in compliance
5 with State law. This proposal is consistent with
6 that. And I would be pleased to answer any questions
7 and respond at any point during the process.
8 Thank you.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Governor.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11 TREASURER NELSON: Mr. Secretary, would -- do
12 you happen to have a map that would show us the
13 additional development of the 1,600 acres over and
14 above the 420 that you talked about, and I must say
15 --
16 SECRETARY MURLEY: There are so many maps.
17 TREASURER NELSON: I must say that the amount of
18 planning that has gone into this, I really commend
19 the County, you, the Department of Environmental
20 Protection, you really put a lot of thought into
21 this. And my impression, as I looked at it, is that
22 there is a general benefit to all of that south
23 county area if you create a new town center, then it
24 needs it. Instead of it just happening willy-nilly.
25 If it's a planned community, it's going to be so much
44
1 for the betterment of all the citizens.
2 And so give us an idea of what you are talking
3 about in addition to the 420 acres.
4 SECRETARY MURLEY: Thank you, Treasurer Nelson.
5 And I would add to the people who have worked hard,
6 the citizens of Walton County.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Will you send up a little copy
8 of that map that he showed us so that we have it?
9 SECRETARY MURLEY: And this map is a product of
10 that citizens group, and it shows you the areas that
11 with the redrawn CARL boundary and would debate in
12 front of public hearings and other groups, it was
13 decided that the connector, the green way connector
14 between the State for --
15 SECRETARY MURLEY: Should I wait?
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's get a map, sir, so we
17 can follow you.
18 SECRETARY MURLEY: It appears that you should
19 have the maps, and I can verbally describe to you
20 what those areas are.
21 MS. WETHERELL: We are making copies, but your
22 staffs each have one.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Some of us can use one. Maybe
24 if you can get several of them up here. Okay. There
25 is one in the back. Okay.
45
1 TREASURER NELSON: My question specifically is,
2 for you to illusidate us on your statement of an
3 overall planned area of an additional 1,600 acres. I
4 know about the 420, because Bob Milligan and I walked
5 around that one; but what I am curious is an overall
6 planning aspect.
7 SECRETARY MURLEY: All of the legislative
8 direction and your direction was to look at
9 acquisition and disposition. I mean, the goal was to
10 provide a contiguous protected area of the state
11 parks. There is three now, which are most valuable,
12 and the State forests. And using the base properties
13 that you had decided to acquire in '92, there were
14 gaps and out parcels.
15 So the recommendations include completion of the
16 purchase of the outparcels. A fairly -- a wide
17 connector, a greenway, that originally was looked at
18 as more or less a pedestrian or user-friendly green
19 way, but now has been broadened to include additional
20 environmental protections.
21 Rather than sell some of those lands, that
22 connector, that east-west connector between the main
23 forest body and Topsail Hill has been broadened. And
24 that was primarily because of the recommendations of
25 the community. They wanted that area protected.
46
1 So to do that, the State must buy more land to
2 make that connector a viable contiguous piece of
3 State-owned land that the greenway -- it's called the
4 greenway connector -- can be done.
5 The other primary portions is that many of the
6 professionals and the community pointed to for needed
7 acquisition was north of Topsail Hill. North of
8 Topsail Hill, as you remember, the parcel was south
9 of 98.
10 To the north are significant parcels of
11 State-owned lands, but they offer the opportunity to
12 have a State-owned connection from the beach to the
13 bay. And to do that, again, to have a manageable
14 piece of property, we need to buy more State -- buy
15 private parcels and add them to our already existing
16 State ownership.
17 So those would be the primary areas of
18 additional acquisition.
19 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Governor.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
21 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: I just want to ask
22 a quick question.
23 Are you suggesting that more property is going
24 to be purchased in the future?
25 SECRETARY MURLEY: I am conveying, Madam
47
1 Secretary, the recommendations of all the agencies'
2 responsibility that -- included in the new CARL
3 boundary would be the acquisition of another 1,600
4 acres. The County is aware of that. That is in the
5 works. That completes the management and contiguous
6 ownership of the forests and the State parks. And I
7 don't know of any debate on that point, but I cannot
8 speak for all parties. But I certainly support that,
9 and I believe that to be the recommendation of the --
10 I do serve with the Secretary on the CARL acquisition
11 committee; and in redrawing the CARL boundary, we
12 assumed that those further acquisitions, which have
13 been, Secretary Wetherell, the case that's devoted on
14 as part of the CARL report.
15 Yes, you voted on that boundary.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: So this will be an additional
17 1,600 acres. 1,600 acres we have already purchased?
18 SECRETARY MURLEY: This is on top of the 19,000
19 acres.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: 19,000.
21 SECRETARY MURLEY: Yes, because those were
22 scattered.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
24 SECRETARY MURLEY: We are going to have a
25 beautiful contiguous area of publicly-owned land, the
48
1 best anywhere on the Gulf Coast as far as I am
2 concerned.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
4 Any other questions?
5 TREASURER NELSON: Well, if you would take the
6 map now and tell me what you're talking about. We
7 have a color map of what you just gave us on a
8 Xerox. So where is it?
9 SECRETARY MURLEY: This is the main State
10 forest.
11 TREASURER NELSON: No. I understand that. I
12 know where the 420 acres is. What I am trying --
13 would you describe the overall development of 1,600
14 acres?
15 SECRETARY MURLEY: The acquisition of private
16 property to be added to the State forests and the
17 State parks, not development.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. So that's not the
19 development. You're only talking about the 420 as
20 the development.
21 SECRETARY MURLEY: Absolutely, but I wanted to
22 put that in context, that as you were reviewing that
23 item, we are also talking about purchasing these
24 additional lands to be protected for the forests and
25 the State parks.
49
1 TREASURER NELSON: Okay.
2 SECRETARY MURLEY: I'm sorry if I misunderstood
3 your question.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Go ahead.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have got --
6 when we got started in 1992, part of the problem we
7 had, I think, it was a pretty quick purchase, and the
8 County stated that they did not want to purchase
9 anymore lands. What's happening now is you're saying
10 we are going to develop 420 acres, but then take
11 1,600 more acres and a possible development. Is the
12 County going along with that? Have they changed
13 their position on this?
14 SECRETARY MURLEY: As part -- again, Attorney
15 General, we are not asking to develop 420 acres. The
16 parcel for disposition of State-owned lands is total
17 420 acres, but only 179 of those would be replaced
18 with public or private use.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How much is going
20 to be public and how much private?
21 SECRETARY MURLEY: I don't have the exact
22 figure. The public uses --
23 MS. KEYS: Do you want me to address that?
24 SECRETARY MURLEY: Well, just give me a figure.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just a ballpark.
50
1 MS. KEYS: For this very specific plan, it's 60
2 acres, approximately, for public. That's contingent
3 upon this specific plan.
4 SECRETARY MURLEY: That's Cassie Keys
5 representing the County.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And would you by
7 any chance know of any other State CARL lands we have
8 used for a private development?
9 SECRETARY MURLEY: I am only familiar with the
10 south Walton situation, Attorney General. And I am
11 not -- I am not familiar with any other legislative
12 directions to plan for development, any conservation
13 project on P 2000 lands. I think that is the
14 precedent we are dealing with.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: For the 1,600
16 acres, are they willing to sell the forest 1,600
17 acres?
18 SECRETARY MURLEY: I don't have the answer to
19 that.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Are you going to
21 be paying a tremendous premium for those other acres?
22 We got a pretty good buy for the Point Washington
23 piece, but are they going to be, in essence, selling
24 these 450 acres and having to end up paying
25 tremendously high money for the 1,600 acres and can't
51
1 afford to do it?
2 SECRETARY MURLEY: That would be a question
3 probably best addressed by DEP. But from my
4 experience, Attorney General, these are not prime
5 lands. These are not the beachfront lands that I
6 worked with you on during the condemnation case.
7 These are timberlands that would add to the forest
8 and complete parcels that are already owned by the
9 State.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Are there any
11 owners in the 1,600 acres that want to buy that will
12 be involved in this particular town center
13 development, so you can trade lands or whatever we
14 have to do?
15 SECRETARY MURLEY: Certainly, that would be
16 available to the land acquisition agents.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But you don't
18 have that now?
19 SECRETARY MURLEY: No, because the disposition
20 plan is not before us. We are bringing that back a
21 subsequent date, if you approve the finding that we
22 no longer need this land for P 2000.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Let me -- if I may, let
24 me understand now. We are talking about 60 acres
25 that will be used for public purposes, and another
52
1 amount of acreage used to the tune of 170, 180, that
2 will be used for private development?
3 SECRETARY MURLEY: I have got -- let me make
4 sure I give you the math right.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Somewhere in the
6 ballpark.
7 SECRETARY MURLEY: Yes. It would be 179 minus
8 60.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: But is the 60 all of the land
11 that will ever be used for public purpose of that
12 179, or is that 60 what they have something for right
13 now; and is all the rest going to be for private or
14 is that a portion of that?
15 SECRETARY MURLEY: That's the plan that is
16 before you today, Governor. And it could be
17 addressed -- in the future would have to come back to
18 you, of course.
19 But the plan is for a town center; and a town
20 center needs more than just public buildings. It
21 needs the opportunity to have some housing. And as
22 the Affordable Housing Agency, we could go in and
23 work with private parties to build affordable housing
24 for the people who work in that in the south county.
25 It needs a place for the workers to be able to do
53
1 some shopping.
2 If not, what we are asking is it would make the
3 transportation problem worse, rather than let the
4 people walk to some of their accessible uses, we
5 would be asking them to get in their cars. This is
6 the right location for a town center. It's right at
7 the intersection of two major state highways.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I may, we already did
9 a visit with Commissioner Nelson the property of
10 concern, and I was taken, frankly, by the fact that
11 there were no other pieces of property considered to
12 accommodate this 60-acre requirement for public
13 services. And it kind of concerns me a little bit
14 that this one single piece of property, which was
15 initially inside the CARL boundary, now outside the
16 CARL boundary, and other pieces of property outside
17 all along the CARL boundary were never considered for
18 the town center.
19 I understand also there is an old town center
20 for south Walton County that is in existence and
21 proximate to CARL project property that's outside of
22 the boundary.
23 SECRETARY MURLEY: Comptroller Milligan, if I
24 can respond. Again, I served on the Trust that was
25 allocated the funds to plan and make an inventory of
54
1 all 52,000 acres, public and private. We hired some
2 of the best consultants. We had the advantage of the
3 help of the Division of Forestry and all of the State
4 agencies. We looked at the entire 52,000 acres to
5 try to find the best site for a town center. This
6 center, itself, is not all publicly owned.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand.
8 SECRETARY MURLEY: In that sense, if we had gone
9 to 100 percent publicly owned, it would have been the
10 easiest -- it still would have been a tough policy
11 decision, but this was the location. It's really a
12 fundamental question, if we are willing to address
13 it, that this is the best location for a town center
14 and does the least disruption to the --
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So you are telling me
16 that you did look at alternate sites?
17 SECRETARY MURLEY: Yes.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You are the first person
19 that has been willing to stand up and say it.
20 SECRETARY MURLEY: Well, I will be willing to
21 stand up and say what I did. And as a member of that
22 Trust, I know what I looked at -- and as a planner,
23 the place to put a location that attracts people is
24 near the roads that have the best ability and the
25 capacity to carry the traffic. And those state
55
1 highways, we have made a commitment through the
2 Department of Transportation --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Where is the population
4 largely located in the south Walton County?
5 SECRETARY MURLEY: Perhaps the County could best
6 answer that question. It's my understanding --
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I assumed you would have
8 considered that in --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: It would be in Grayton Beach
10 east.
11 SECRETARY MURLEY: The majority of the
12 population is north of the bay.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: No, but in south, south
14 Walton.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: In south Walton.
16 SECRETARY MURLEY: It's spread out along 30A,
17 the coastal road which is --
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: The most dense population
19 would be at Grayton Beach and east of there in the
20 Seascape, or Seaside.
21 SECRETARY MURLEY: Probably, but this center was
22 chosen to serve all--
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I would be curious to
24 know where the most dense population is that's going
25 to be served; and no one has been able to give me an
56
1 answer on that just yet until now, and I am not sure
2 I have it yet.
3 SECRETARY MURLEY: Well, I can only, again, give
4 you my professional opinion, Mr. Milligan. But if we
5 look to the future, if we look at the population
6 projections, we look at the land that we already own
7 and are proposing to buy, then I believe that, again,
8 for a town center, this would be the best location.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I hope as we go through
10 the continued dialogue here that someone will address
11 the population growth and the potential as to where
12 the population will be, in fact, generally located in
13 south Walton County; and secondly, the aspect of
14 other sites that were, in fact, considered for the
15 town center.
16 SECRETARY MURLEY: There are several plans
17 available.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. Thank you.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I ask a
20 question?
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: How much -- excuse me, go
22 ahead.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I was just going to ask,
24 whoever can answer this. One of the things that
25 still concerns me about the parcel is parcel D. That
57
1 is, I guess, considered to be my worst -- now, not
2 anybody else's -- more environmentally sensitive
3 based on its wetland features than some of the other
4 parts of that acreage of the 400 acres.
5 And I noticed and I have looked at the fact over
6 time that the only building that is scheduled for
7 that particular parcel D, which is in the lower
8 right-hand corner, it appears to be about 20 to 25
9 acres of development for public purposes, that being,
10 I guess, college grants, church and a library.
11 The only question that I would ask is, was there
12 a thought, or has there been thought, since it is the
13 only construction slated for that particular larger
14 parcel, that that construction could take place on
15 the remaining parcels where the public and private
16 construction is all slated for the most part to go
17 and allow that lower right-hand parcel D to remain
18 undeveloped, since it's not only wetland, but
19 apparently part and parcel to the outflow of that
20 property, I guess, to the bay?
21 Do you understand my question?
22 SECRETARY MURLEY: Yes, I do, Commissioner.
23 The site works with the overall plan and its
24 location. The jurisdictional wetland mapping is
25 taking place, and there will be a 50-foot setback
58
1 from all wetlands. There will be all the permitting
2 requirements as far as drainage of that site as all
3 the sites. And I think that, given the overall plan,
4 that was chosen by the team that was working on it to
5 be the site.
6 Therefore, if I can answer your question, I
7 believe from looking at it and seeing their final
8 product and knowing the permitting requirements that
9 are going to be imposed on that site, it makes sense.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is there anything slated
11 in the future for any of the rest of that parcel D,
12 besides what we have in front of us today?
13 SECRETARY MURLEY: As far as I know,
14 Commissioner, I have the same diagram, and that's all
15 that is proposed.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, Governor.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Will you tell us -- the
18 General was saying that this is the first he heard
19 today, you know, that we looked at alternative sites.
20 I think if you would maybe tell us who, what kind of
21 meetings were taken? Who participated? Who did you
22 hear from? You know, we are up here sort of
23 second-guessing you now in the last moments in asking
24 you questions, but was this something you arrived at
25 yourself?
59
1 SECRETARY MURLEY: Oh, no.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Or was there a participatory
3 process that went into it; if so, what?
4 SECRETARY MURLEY: Governor and members of the
5 Cabinet, as you will see from my letter, there was a
6 direct appropriation in 1993 for the creation of a
7 conservation of development trust. Six individuals
8 were appointed by the County Commission and six
9 appointed by the Governor. Those 12 formed the --
10 MS. WETHERELL: Senate, House, wasn't it?
11 SECRETARY MURLEY: No. Just the County. There
12 was a later group, you are right.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Sorry.
14 SECRETARY MURLEY: They formed the
15 responsibility for conducting the planning for hiring
16 the consultants. Part of the consultants they hired
17 were public participation consultants who did a
18 tremendous vision plan and a survey of hundreds of
19 the citizens of south Walton County who had a chance
20 to tell the Trust and the consultants what they
21 wanted.
22 And the town plan was in that, the town plan
23 came out of that vision that was created by the Trust
24 and the citizens providing input.
25 / / / / /
60
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Did out of that Trust and out
2 of those meetings, did that come from the
3 recommendation to purchase the other acreage that we
4 are now talking about?
5 SECRETARY MURLEY: That came later.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: That came later.
7 SECRETARY MURLEY: As the Trust completed its
8 work, it took two years, and the documents are on
9 file, it was felt that more work needed to be done to
10 be very precise before we came back to the Trustees
11 on any disposition or acquisition, because it was
12 clear to get those contiguous parcels, there was
13 going to have to be further acquisition.
14 So the Legislature passed the second act, which
15 was the -- it was a Ecosystem Management
16 Demonstration Act that the Secretary put together
17 with three demonstration parcels, two were -- one was
18 Panther, one was, I think, Hillsborough and one was
19 south Walton. That led to the creation of another
20 group appointed by the County of which the Department
21 and DEP also served, and they hired the planners who
22 gave you the actual town plan document.
23 Then the whole process moved on and came back to
24 the CARL Committee Land Acquisition Advisory Council
25 at that time, and we made further discussions about
61
1 the CARL boundaries. The CARL boundary decision,
2 which we recommended to you and you voted on that set
3 the direction for those acquisitions, and set -- and
4 leave this parcel outside of the boundary. Once we
5 did that, we have now started this process and are
6 back in front of you.
7 There have been a lot of citizens involved that
8 are still out there that are still involved, they are
9 a unique group.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: How much was the acreage
11 involved in Topsail and how much was involved in
12 Point Washington originally?
13 SECRETARY MURLEY: That one, I can't answer.
14 MR. BRADLEY: I think Topsail is probably in the
15 neighborhood of 1,600 acres of land that's south of
16 U.S. 98 and west of 30A; and the Point Washington
17 project, I can't tell you what exactly; it was in
18 excess of 20,000 acres, as I recall, Governor, and
19 when we originally acquired this, we were only
20 acquiring one ownership, and that was what the
21 federal government owned at the time, and that was
22 the 19,000 more or less acres, which did not include
23 everything that was part of the original Point
24 Washington project.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
62
1 Yes, sir.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Mr. Secretary, I really
3 commend you for what you are doing. I don't think
4 it's my position to second-guess the specifics of
5 what you have done in your study group, pursuant to
6 the legislation and set up your study group.
7 I think when I boil it down to the bottom line,
8 my job here is to question whether or not we should
9 make a determination that this land should be removed
10 from the P 2000.
11 So to try to sort that through my mind, then I
12 go back to, what are the legislative findings on P
13 2000? Now, I support what you are doing about
14 creating a new town. I think this -- so now we come
15 to my responsibility.
16 And if the legislative findings in the P 2000
17 statute are buying up land that otherwise its
18 development would contribute to, and now I am quoting
19 from the statute, "degradation of water resources,
20 fragmentation and destruction of wildlife habitats,
21 loss of recreation space, and the diminishment of
22 wetlands and forests." If that's the standard by
23 which I am to judge this project, then could you give
24 me the specific bottom line reason as to why this
25 land would no longer meet that criteria and therefore
63
1 ought to be removed from the P 2000 lands?
2 SECRETARY MURLEY: This parcel as represented in
3 the map, as you can see, is scattered State and
4 public ownership. So it is fragmented from its
5 standpoint of being able to manage. If you were
6 going to do a burn of the area, you would have to be
7 cognizant of the private ownership. We know that
8 private land today, someone can go to the County
9 Commission and ask for a building permit, the private
10 land.
11 So we already have an area unlike the big forest
12 parcels and the State parks which has a management
13 issue. It is as obvious that the intersection of two
14 highways, which almost always causes what we call
15 friction at the edges. You have got road kill
16 problems, you have got just an access that a highway
17 -- a major highway can give you.
18 There is no question that it still exists on
19 that site, valuable natural resources. That's
20 probably true for all of south Walton. But we
21 believe the plan itself and the conditions we -- are
22 in the plan protect those resources and provide the
23 protection that would allow this parcel, while not in
24 State ownership, to be -- to not be a degradation to
25 the environment.
64
1 So I believe the answer to the question, because
2 you have to answer it if you have a disposal statute,
3 is that only in those rare instances where it is not
4 the right piece to manage as part of your overall
5 parcel and if the proper protections that are going
6 to be in place that you should ever consider.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. And I would just --
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let me just -- excuse me. Have
9 you finished?
10 TREASURER NELSON: I have just one quick
11 follow-up.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Go ahead.
13 TREASURER NELSON: In light of that, then, would
14 your recommendation to us be the same for all of
15 those 420 acres when, in fact, the way that you
16 assess the ecological significance of the 420 is that
17 you assessed it very low in ecological significance
18 on the 120 acres that was -- what's referred to as
19 parcel D, which is close to the intersection of the
20 two roads; whereas you assessed it as moderate, good
21 to high ecological quality on the remaining 300 --
22 yeah, about 320 acres, on the remaining.
23 Would your answer be the same, even though two
24 different parts of that 420 acres had different
25 ecological assessments?
65
1 SECRETARY MURLEY: Yes, because the protections
2 -- of the 420, we are only proposing 179 to use, the
3 remainder would be protected in conservation. Yet,
4 those form the wetland systems that are there today,
5 except for the road crossings. There are a few
6 places you would have to do mitigation; but we are
7 using the uplands in a well-developed town plan. We
8 are protecting the wetlands.
9 I believe my answer would be yes.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let me kind of review the
11 history on this, I think it might help you just a
12 little bit.
13 If you go back to 1992. We were sitting in the
14 Cabinet meeting, the membership of the Cabinet was
15 somewhat different then, and the Attorney General
16 presented a proposal to us that morning, the first
17 that I heard about it, and said that there was going
18 to be a courthouse auction on the property that was
19 Topsail and Point Washington, and that he thought
20 that we should bid. And he asked the Governor and
21 the other members of the Cabinet to go on record as
22 buying both parcels of land.
23 Topsail sale was very, very high on our CARL
24 list, had been. We had been in all kinds of
25 litigation and other fights trying to buy this land
66
1 at one time or another. It had always been
2 important.
3 Point Washington was good land, never ranked
4 anything like Topsail. And here we were in about 30
5 minutes, if it was that long that we discussed this,
6 closer maybe to 20 minutes.
7 Now, the other thing, for the first time making
8 a decision that we are not going to buy Topsail
9 itself, and in that discussion, we said, let's just
10 buy Topsail, that's what we want. Well, we got to
11 take all or nothing is the way it was. It turned out
12 to be a wonderful bargain, no doubt about that. We
13 -- when you talk about prices we paid, we never made
14 a better bargain than we did in that.
15 The sale was going to take place at high noon, I
16 think. So we had just that long to do it.
17 The first time I think the County had heard
18 about that and the people of the County was either
19 the night before, the night before, I guess, because
20 they had driven to get here this morning; and they
21 came up and said, you are getting ready to lock up
22 the rest of the land in our county, and here we have
23 beaches down there. We don't have anything for being
24 able to site schools or fire departments or a town
25 center or anything, and we have this growth in the
67
1 southern part of the county. Please don't do that.
2 Let us bid with you to buy part of this land and all
3 kind of things.
4 We didn't have that long. I said, we are going
5 to buy this land. We have got to do it, or we are
6 going to put in a bid for it. We will treat you
7 fairly in this. Out of all of this land, the
8 critical land that we have to have and the other
9 land, we will find some land for you.
10 Now, I can tell you, this discussion would not
11 be necessary if I hadn't felt that that was true,
12 because I would have never voted for it. I would
13 have never supported it. I would have told those
14 people that we are getting ready to lock up all of
15 your land, going through no real cause of any review
16 of the way you would normally do things, giving them
17 no opportunity to be heard, done in about 20 or 30
18 minutes I've said. But we will find this.
19 And then if you review what's happened through
20 that process since then, we brought everybody
21 involved in the environmental community and the
22 public interest community and the public sector
23 community, the private citizens, and have gone
24 through -- well, since 1992, and this is 1997, the
25 Legislature spoke to this thing four times.
68
1 Now, what are we up against? We are up against
2 -- we are getting ready to change the precedent of P
3 2000.
4 Now, I believe that I have been a pretty good
5 supporter of P 2000 since the day I came into office,
6 or since I was running for office, made it one of the
7 items of my campaign that we would fund it, sought a
8 permanent funding source, and many occasions to try
9 to fund that. But to lock ourselves up now or to
10 say, we are not going to consider this, do we have
11 some responsibility to a county if we are going to
12 buy all the land in that county? Do we have some
13 responsibility to school children, to people that
14 have government services? And we are hoisted on this
15 petard that we cannot break this precedent.
16 Well, I can tell you, again, we never would have
17 to worry about this argument, if I had thought that
18 we could not deal with this and deal with this county
19 fairly and in an appropriate way, because I don't
20 think it would ever have been supported that morning.
21 Now, Commissioner Crawford was here, and the
22 Attorney General was here, and the other members --
23 so y'all are in a different position. I mean, as far
24 -- and anybody else is, because they could have done
25 it on the basis of what their view was on it. But I
69
1 know exactly what mine was, and I know that we are
2 not doing anything that hurts P 2000.
3 We are talking about 400-something acres out of
4 19,000 acres. We have had everybody in the world
5 look to find the best place you could put this. We
6 are only dealing with 179 acres of that 400-something
7 acres. We are going to protect the rest.
8 Now, you know, at some stage, there has to be
9 some modicum of not only common sense, but common
10 decency, I think, to say that we are going to give
11 equity to a county, but also that we are going to
12 give some consistency to our word when we tell people
13 of the county not to worry, you don't have to go bid,
14 you don't have to compete with us. From what we got
15 that land at, the County maybe could have mustered
16 itself up and bought it all themselves. We only had
17 one bid, I believe. We just put in the one bid, and
18 that was it.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I may, Governor.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
21 (Applause from the audience.)
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I am in complete support
23 of the position that you just articulated with one
24 minor exception. And it certainly -- I am not
25 concerned about the precedence setting or anything
70
1 else. It was an agreement to try to support the
2 County, and I believe we need to stand up to that
3 agreement.
4 My only concern is, are we, in fact, picking the
5 best piece of property out of what is available? And
6 I am not convinced of that yet by what I have heard
7 and what I have seen.
8 And I want to support what the Cabinet agreed to
9 in 1992, when you so well stated. And believe me, I
10 am not hung up on the precedent. We need to get the
11 best piece of property in their hands as rapidly as
12 we can, the piece of property that makes sense.
13 That's where I am coming from.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if I
15 can, like you stated, this is the most unusual
16 purchase in modern times of property by the State,
17 where literally we had a few moments to decide
18 whether or not to take 19,000 acres or nothing. And
19 the commitment was made to the County that we would
20 work with them at that time.
21 I can only submit, I think it's so unique what
22 we do here is not any precedent setting, it would be
23 very difficult. I doubt very much that we are ever
24 going to buy a piece of property like this again; but
25 I share the General's concern, too, this is really
71
1 the best place, and I guess that's what we are here
2 for today to determine.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Governor, I would just like to
4 say that the Department, who is the land acquisition
5 agent for the State, we do not see this as precedent
6 setting either. I mean, this is such a unique
7 acquisition. Everything you said is on target. There
8 is nothing that's common about this proposal before
9 you, and it does not, in our mind, set any precedent
10 for the way we will deal with P 2000.
11 But for the way you bought it, but for the fact
12 that the Legislature has been intimately involved in
13 this issue and all the planning and dollars that have
14 been spent, there is nothing else like this before
15 you.
16 So as your staff, you are not going to see us
17 letting this particular acquisition or disposition be
18 precedent setting.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I also just want to add
20 that the whole concern about P 2000, what that does,
21 that came up after we made the deal. What we were
22 talking about was, let's put in a bid for this piece
23 of property. We have been trying to get this one,
24 let's put in one. And then when the County said,
25 well, wait a minute, you're taking all of this land
72
1 away from us. We said, don't worry. We will sit
2 down with you. We will figure out a process where
3 you can get some of this.
4 So I can tell you, the idea that we needed to
5 say, now, wait a minute, we are not setting a
6 precedent on it. Nobody thought of that, I don't
7 think. I don't think we ever dealt with this as P
8 2000. We just said, we have got 20 minutes to buy
9 this piece of property, send a telegram or whatever
10 we did over there and said we want to knock it down
11 on the courthouse step; and as the General said, we
12 got 19,000 acres for nothing, because our bid was
13 less than what Topsail was worth, what we had
14 appraised it at, what we would have paid for it on
15 any given day.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Yes. There are a number of
17 speakers, and they might be able to address some of
18 the questions I have heard, particularly from the
19 Comptroller. So we will get on with that, if that's
20 all right.
21 I am going to call first on George Wilson from
22 the Nature Conservancy who is opposed.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: George Wilson, he
24 was at the courthouse steps that morning.
25 George, if you hadn't done all of this good
73
1 work, you know, no good deed ever goes unpunished.
2 MR. WILSON: I am learning, yes, sir.
3 Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I am
4 George Wilson, speaking on behalf of the Nature
5 Conservancy. And my organization has asked me to
6 come and ask you not to vote on this item as the way
7 it's written. Perhaps there is a better way that it
8 could be written; but as it's written now, we do
9 believe that it is precedent setting. Even if you
10 use the minutes of this meeting to establish -- as
11 the Secretary said, that she doesn't believe there is
12 a precedent, there is nothing in the item that says
13 it isn't precedent.
14 And I wanted to go back just on a couple of
15 items, and it looks like I am beating on a sacred
16 dead horse here. But when the Governor and Cabinet
17 voted in May 1992 to take this quick action, this
18 good cause item as the Governor has said, there was a
19 document that had been approved five months before by
20 that same Governor and Cabinet that had every bit of
21 this land in it; and that was the 1992 CARL Annual
22 Report.
23 Every bit of the boundary that we purchased was
24 in, except for the 400 acres that the CARL process
25 had designated not to buy, that to go ahead and
74
1 exclude it, because it was those scattered wetland
2 and piano pieces that were between the property.
3 So the Governor and Cabinet, when they voted in
4 May, voted for us to purchase an area that had been
5 through all of the procedures and all the process
6 that it normally goes through in a CARL process. So
7 what we did, we have the best process in the United
8 States for looking at land, it takes a year, takes
9 even longer to -- ask a property owner how long it
10 takes to go through the process.
11 We designed that the reason it was ranked high
12 on the CARL list, I think the Attorney General can
13 attest to, is that a number of sites that were owned
14 by the RTC were thought not to have a lot of
15 vulnerability and threat; and the CARL community,
16 when asked, we told them that we were working on a
17 package deal for the RTC for all the sites in
18 Florida, and we were well underway prior to the
19 auction to do that.
20 The entire bulk sale did not go through, but we
21 got all the sites we wanted, and not only got this
22 one for nothing, but we got sites in Hillsborough for
23 15 percent of value, 30 percent of value in Brevard
24 County and scrub, and a mile of the Seminole County
25 on the Wekiva River at a greatly reduced price. So
75
1 there was a whole package that we went through with
2 the Attorney General's help and with the Cabinet's
3 support.
4 But make no mistake that the 1,600 acres that
5 was in or out was all included in the CARL document.
6 It was all included in the boundaries and went
7 through all the process and all the procedures that
8 staff normally go through of all the agencies to look
9 at why something should or shouldn't be in an
10 acquisition project.
11 So the 1,600 acres, as talked about earlier that
12 somehow is back in, that was all in the original
13 boundary. There is no gift back to the CARL program.
14 If you look at the boundary that was -- the
15 Governor and Cabinet approved in 1992, during the
16 three years that we deliberated on the Trust, we
17 dropped all the Priority 2 areas, thousands of acres
18 were dropped out of the CARL project that the CARL
19 community said should be Phase 2. We dropped all the
20 beachfront, the southeastern portion of the county,
21 it's all now being developed in a very high end and
22 residential and condo development.
23 And of the 2,000 acres, it was the highest
24 priority of grant holdings in the Division of
25 Forestry's area. We lost 600 acres to development,
76
1 because since May of 1992, there has been no new
2 holdings and additions program. There has been no
3 timely acquisitions to buy the priority sites.
4 And that's still where we are today. And if
5 there is a fight beyond this meeting today, then we
6 still are making no success. The whole program is
7 still stymied.
8 What we need to do is have a decision that
9 allows the process to move forward to finish the CARL
10 boundaries and to succeed in the forest.
11 I would like to mention a couple other point on
12 the economics. In the Trust deliberations, we hired
13 some economists that were supposedly pretty good
14 economists. Their summary judgment on the economics
15 of this purchase was that for every county, every
16 acre that was in public holding, that saved the
17 County $3,200 -- $3,700 per acre per year. $3,700,
18 because there were no infrastructure costs, no
19 services. So every piece of land that was in public
20 ownership actually saved the County. That's what the
21 Trust finding was.
22 At the time of the purchase, this former St. Joe
23 property was bringing in, as greenbelt land, about
24 $30,000 a year in income. The County now receives, I
25 think, over $200,000 a year in payment in lieu.
77
1 So, you know -- and the conditions in 1997 are
2 very different than 1992. You have one of the
3 fastest growing counties, very healthy, south Walton
4 County pays a very, very large percentage of the
5 overall taxes of the County. So this is a county
6 that has received more than $150 million of largess
7 of the State. Many other counties would love to have
8 these CARL monies or these type of purchases.
9 We have increased the value of private property.
10 The Trust report also said that, that lands adjacent
11 to the forest and to the park have gone up in value,
12 and they have gone up in value at a faster rate.
13 So I would suggest that the State's investment
14 has aided the County, the economics don't show any
15 negative impact.
16 And I would also like to show you one other
17 document. The receiving waters for this project for
18 Point Washington is Choctawhatchee Bay.
19 Choctawhatchee Bay and river are one of the SWIM
20 priority areas, the areas for surface water and
21 improvement.
22 And as a board member of the water management
23 district, I can tell you that this is the area that
24 had a lot of impact, most of the value comes from
25 Choctawhatchee Bay and been impacted by bulkheaded
78
1 and by septic tanks and by development. There is no
2 way you can put a development in a watershed and
3 increase the water quality. And this is an area --
4 this is a SWIM priority water body receiving area
5 that this development will -- that these lands will
6 flow into.
7 These State lands are also needed to buffer
8 other upstream private uses that will come. This is
9 a rapidly developing county. I don't think we have
10 hurt the county. I just want to suggest that what
11 the Cabinet did followed the CARL process in every
12 step possible; and so we really need to think about
13 those type of situations. And this is a precedent,
14 and it's a precedent that people in Florida, when you
15 try to explain why we are giving something back that
16 has private development in it, it is very hard to
17 explain this to people. The editorial boards and
18 most of the papers as we have been through this
19 process many times have --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: George, I don't think many of
21 you have tried to explain it very well.
22 MR. WILSON: You may be right, sir.
23 But as they understood why we would give back a
24 piece of functioning public conservation land, it is
25 very difficult to explain that. And I understand
79
1 that you're opening Pandora's box here whether you
2 say it's a precedent or not. There are a lot of
3 people watching this on the both sides of the coin.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, George, do you
5 understand that Pandora's box would have never been
6 there if I had known, in effect, that we were going
7 to lock all of this up and we were not going to let
8 the County have anything, because somebody else would
9 have bid that down on the courthouse steps maybe, but
10 it wouldn't have been the State of Florida.
11 MR. WILSON: Yes, sir. You may be right; but
12 what I am suggesting that we have been in the process
13 by dropping out thousands of acres that were in the
14 CARL boundary that since the Trust deliberation in
15 either year of pretrust deliberation that a lot of
16 areas we wanted to buy have been developed.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, then are you saying that
18 we have already set the precedent when we dropped
19 some of those out of the CARL boundary?
20 MR. WILSON: We dropped them out because they
21 were being developed while we deliberated as a trust
22 for two years. There was no process to buy anything.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, George, we are either
24 pure or we are not.
25 MR. WILSON: Okay.
80
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: If we dropped them out, we are
2 already pregnant, aren't we?
3 MR. WILSON: We may be.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Isn't that -- George,
5 isn't that a potential problem statewide with a
6 potential P 2000 property, however, that before the
7 State, even though it has designated that property is
8 property we would like to have, isn't the potential
9 always there that before we can get to it, before it
10 allows us enough money to purchase, that somebody
11 else could either purchase it out from under us or
12 somebody who already owns it could develop it and use
13 it for another purpose?
14 MR. WILSON: Yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I guess my point is, I see
16 where you're coming from on that issue; but that, in
17 itself, by dropping it out, is not an -- it's not a
18 conscious act of the State. It is the circumstances
19 that we face statewide potentially when we say any
20 time when we earmark property on the CARL list,
21 somebody can either come in and develop that property
22 who already owns it or somebody can buy that property
23 for development purposes.
24 So that, in terms of this particular section, is
25 no different than that possibility, even in some
81
1 cases probability statewide. We would like to have a
2 CARL boundary that you could buy exclusively
3 tomorrow, 100 percent of it, and never face that
4 issue. Unfortunately, you only have so much money
5 and so much time, you always run the risk that
6 somebody is going to beat you to it for development
7 purposes.
8 MR. WILSON: Yes, sir.
9 In closing, I appreciate the time. The test has
10 not been met, I think, in my opinion, and in my
11 organization's opinion, that this land is no longer
12 needed in the furtherance of P 2000. There has been
13 no technical discussion of why these functioning wet
14 prairies, why these flatwoods, why these baygalls and
15 why these stream systems aren't working, and why they
16 aren't working as well as they were when they were
17 put in the boundary, a buffer to the bay and protect
18 the habitat.
19 The only reasons given for disposing of this
20 have been that people have met and changed
21 boundaries. There is still the criteria that if this
22 land is working, and if you put the technicians up on
23 the stand and ask them is this place functioning, is
24 it working, you couldn't get another answer but the
25 fact that this is a functioning healthy system.
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1 Thank you.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Not counting your time for
4 questions, that was six minutes of the 20.
5 I wanted to say something to correct the
6 record.
7 In regard to the '92 CARL proposal that he held
8 up in front of you, he is correct in that a lot of
9 that CARL -- you had approved a lot of that land as
10 part of the CARL boundary.
11 My staff says that we did buy some land in that
12 purchase that was outside the CARL boundary, but the
13 point I wanted to make to you was that you would not
14 have purchased that land, because that was number 55
15 or 56 on the priority list; and it was not in the
16 money, not in the work plan, so but for that
17 opportunity on the courthouse steps, we would not
18 have Point Washington. It turns out it's a great
19 buy, but you would not have it.
20 If I can call on Susie Caplow (ph) from Sierra
21 Club.
22 MS. CAPLOW: Governor and Cabinet, thank you for
23 the opportunity this morning. My name is Susan
24 Caplow, and I am speaking for Judy Hancock, the
25 public lands issue Chair for the Florida Chapter
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1 Sierra Club, who presented a prepared statement last
2 week at a Cabinet aides meeting; and I have copies
3 here if you didn't get it from last week.
4 We continue to oppose the transfer or surplus of
5 420-acre tract of P 2000 lands in Walton County,
6 which was within the original boundary of Point
7 Washington State Forest. We believe this tract
8 satisfies the intent of the P 2000 Act acquisition of
9 lands for conservation and recreational purposes.
10 This tract contains numerous wetlands, a stream
11 system, opportunities for recreation and public green
12 space, is manageable as part of the state forest.
13 This tract also contains flora and fauna similar to
14 that found within the existing state forest. The
15 test for the disposal of this land has not been met.
16 The remaining 400 acres of the various size
17 tracts which are outside the CARL boundary should be
18 evaluated for their natural resource values. Some
19 tracts may not meet the intent of P 2000 and could be
20 suitable for surplus.
21 We do believe this transfer or surplus is
22 precedent setting. This surplus will bring about
23 some consequences that we may not understand. We
24 heard last week at Cabinet aide's meeting that you
25 have already received requests for other P 2000 lands
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1 to be looked at for surplusing.
2 The P 2000 program is known around the world.
3 It's a premier program, it's a model. In the last
4 few years, this program has been under attack
5 legislatively, as you know. We are trying to hold
6 the line, and we ask that you stand with us.
7 Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Bonnie McQuiston (ph).
10 MS. McQUISTON: McQuiston. Yes.
11 Distinguished Cabinet members, I am Bonnie
12 McQuiston. I am a resident of south Walton. Today
13 -- excuse me, I have got to have my glasses.
14 Today you decide if a chunk of our contiguous
15 Point Washington State Forest land, which was on the
16 CARL list, targeted for preservation and was bought
17 for preservation is no longer a functioning ecosystem
18 and no longer needed in furtherance of Preservation
19 2000.
20 If the contiguous Point Washington State Forest
21 land at the proposed new town site, Sections 30 and
22 31, is not found no longer needed in furtherance of
23 Preservation 2000, we urge consideration of the
24 surplus 400 acres of State land, Sections 27 and 28,
25 in the present Santa Rosa Beach town center.
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1 Our existing town center is in dire need of
2 revitalization and useful infrastructure. The State
3 surplus land in Sections 27 and 28 has never been
4 included in a CARL resource boundary and is not in
5 contentious disposition. The proposed new town plan
6 designates 58 acres, approximately, for municipal
7 infrastructure.
8 Certainly in the 400 acres of surplus State
9 land, never included in a CARL project, 58 suitable
10 acres can be found. The surrounding private land
11 will support private and commercial development as
12 called for in the town plan without using State land
13 for private enterprise. This is responsible
14 sustainable development.
15 Thank you.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Eva Armstrong from Audubon.
18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning. Eva Armstrong
19 from Audubon Society. I have two points for you.
20 One is that clearly it is about this 420 acres.
21 It is about the value of the natural resources that
22 are there, which is why we have got P 2000.
23 And if you took a similar circumstance, you
24 might be sitting here today, and let's say you had a
25 prison crisis and the only money that would be spent
86
1 in prisons was in PICO funds, you would be outraged
2 at the idea that you would use a public school
3 funding source if you are to pay for prisons.
4 That's what we're talking about on this 420
5 acres, because it's natural resources.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, we have used public
7 school funds for building aquariums, building
8 auditoriums, a lot of other things.
9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I would suggest that the
10 educators ought to be outraged at that idea, too.
11 Because -- Governor, let me explain this to you.
12 I mean, I have given it a lot of thought.
13 Do we think that you should narrow surplus any
14 -- any land off of P 2000? No. Particularly in this
15 case, where you have got the lands between the east
16 and west portions above 98. There is lots of
17 individual parcels. There are plans for surplus --
18 we haven't contested that. The key, though, is that
19 at the end -- and this is where the precedent comes
20 in with this 420 acres. At the end, I think the
21 judgment needs to be made that you have got the net
22 positive benefit. That, in fact, your decision today
23 will mean that the lands we retain are in better
24 shape.
25 Now, I would just caution you that if you go
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1 immediately to the idea that, well, we have expanded
2 the CARL boundaries for an additional 1,600 acres,
3 just remember that in this area of the state property
4 values, particularly contiguous to the already
5 State-owned land, have gone up substantially in
6 price. The sellers are less willing than they were
7 before. We are not using imminent domain. And we
8 may never, in fact, apply the 1,600 acres, although I
9 want to encourage the State to go forward and buy it.
10 This is a tough position to be in. Believe it
11 or not, I do understand it. I just want to make sure
12 that in terms of precedent that you're really sure
13 that in the end what you decide today means that the
14 State will be better off for P 2000 than before you
15 make the decision.
16 Thank you.
17 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask a question?
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Just a quick question.
20 Ms. Armstrong, I think up here that the question
21 for a number of us is not whether or not there should
22 be a new town center. I think we have already
23 crossed that threshold, and we think there should.
24 The question is, where should it be located?
25 Now, if you go to that site three miles to the
88
1 west, you have the same question facing us about the
2 release of lands from P 2000. So what's the
3 difference in your argument and the argument of the
4 gentleman from the Nature Conservancy?
5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I can't speak for George
6 Wilson, but certainly from my viewpoint, this 420
7 acres, from everything I have seen has greater
8 natural resource values. Is -- although it's
9 separated by roads, is contiguous to the state
10 forests and has a greater degree of quality than the
11 other 400.
12 Now, that is from my judgment, not a scientific
13 judgment. I think that also needs to be evaluated
14 when you decide which lands to dispose of and what
15 the lands would be used for later.
16 I don't know if that answers your question.
17 But, you see, I think -- you see, what you're being
18 asked to do today is to decide that this 420 isn't
19 needed for P 2000, separate from what it would be
20 used for, you see. And I understand the difficulty
21 in trying to -- well, what is it going to be used for
22 gets tied into very easily to, well, should we let
23 go.
24 But I think you have to make it a separate
25 decision, and it's not easy to do. I mean --
89
1 TREASURER NELSON: But under your reasoning, you
2 would oppose a new town center in a site three miles
3 to the west, would you not?
4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I am not coming from a
5 standpoint of a town center or not. I am looking at
6 the land that is there; why it was bought. And if,
7 in the end result, you can't actually get the 1,600
8 acres, then that, in my mind, wouldn't that be better
9 than the 400?
10 But, again, I am not looking at the issue of a
11 town center. I never have in this, to be honest with
12 you. I am looking at the value what's on that 420
13 acres.
14 TREASURER NELSON: And you are also looking at
15 the precedent, you're saying.
16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.
17 TREASURER NELSON: So therefore, you would
18 oppose the release of any of those lands no matter
19 where they are located?
20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of those 420?
21 TREASURER NELSON: Of any lands.
22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.
23 TREASURER NELSON: Under the principal in which
24 you just enunciated.
25 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Then I wasn't clear. Let
90
1 me clarify it, okay?
2 In the maps that you looked at, you know, you
3 have got the Point Washington. Point Washington is
4 on the east and Topsail is on the west. You have got
5 a whole slew of -- what's the word I am looking for
6 -- parcels of land that was separate and not
7 contiguous from what my understanding is, they were
8 scarified, they are north of 98.
9 They weren't in any CARL project. You know, if
10 I were sitting in your seat, I would be saying, yes,
11 it makes sense to surplus those, because we can use
12 that money to buy better land that's contiguous of
13 high quality.
14 Those are the -- so, yes, I am suggesting that
15 there are lands that should be surplused. It's this
16 420 that I am questioning.
17 Does that make more sense?
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
20 MR. WILSON: Mr. Treasurer, in response to your
21 question, I would support the location of a town
22 center, from what I know about the lands that are
23 outside the CARL boundary, on those lands. And there
24 is more than enough space on those lands to
25 accommodate all the public uses. Whether or not
91
1 there is private subdivision room on those lands, I
2 don't know. But those lands have been fair game, in
3 my opinion, ever since the CARL process eliminated
4 them from the CARL boundary.
5 So that is an area that I would not stand and
6 oppose nor I think my organization to put the public
7 uses on that property.
8 Thank you.
9 TREASURER NELSON: How do you explain the
10 consistency of that position given the principal that
11 you enunciated in your earlier statement?
12 MR. WILSON: Because as Eva said, we are not
13 opposed to disposing of lands that are identified in
14 the process for disposal, and sometimes we buy
15 properties where you have to buy an entire ownership,
16 and in the CARL process, you put lands outside the
17 management boundary. Those lands are outside from
18 anybody's management boundary. They have been
19 outside since day one. They have road frontage. They
20 have uplands. They are part wet and part dry. But --
21 that's the difference. They are outside the boundary
22 that we thought was important for managing a
23 ecosystem; and no one has ever disagreed with that.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: It appears that we keep
2 coming back to the same place. General Milligan
3 asked this question one hour ago. It isn't whether
4 people believe there should be a town center, and I
5 am not trying to speak for my colleagues up there
6 here. That appears to be pretty much, at least, a
7 general feeling that there should be.
8 The history of this project, I think, was better
9 than well enunciated by the Governor and how we
10 acquired a very large parcel of property in a very
11 quick time line to accommodate the need. The
12 question -- and I just heard several members of the
13 environmental community suggest, I think, it isn't a
14 question of whether there should be a town center,
15 and it isn't a question of whether some P 2000 lands
16 should not be disposed of if it's in the best
17 interest of the State.
18 The question continues to come back to one
19 thing. As I hear this thing shake out, somebody
20 needs to answer the General's question and simply
21 tell him that this, indeed, is the best parcel of
22 property for this town center, that a myriad of other
23 parcels have been considered and, for whatever reason
24 that someone can enunciate at that microphone, this
25 is the prime parcel of property for this town center,
93
1 and it passes the Litmus Test that I think has been
2 played out here this afternoon.
3 Can anybody answer that question?
4 By the way, just so you know, when we have been
5 working on this for hours, like I know my colleagues
6 have been up here, I have been working largely under
7 the premise that there was a vast amount of planning
8 that's been done on this particular issue that
9 somebody didn't toss a coin and pick this particular
10 parcel of property for a town center; but there was
11 good, firm, rationale as to why it was selected. And
12 that knowing the long history of this parcel, that
13 the people who worked on putting this plan together
14 clearly understood the sensitivity that went along
15 with disposing of P 2000 property, or surplusing P
16 2000 property, and the fact that ultimately someone
17 just may ask the magic question, why this particular
18 parcel of property for this particular plan?
19 MR. BUTLER: Good morning, Governor and Cabinet.
20 I am Van Ness Butler, County Commissioner for
21 District 5, which includes all of south Walton
22 County, 26 miles of the coastline there.
23 I was just looking through the minutes of our
24 last meeting when we adopted this plan here that
25 includes the town center; and at the meeting in
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1 January of 1995, Mr. Murley made the motion to
2 approve the strategic plan document and the Trust
3 implementation plan document; and Mr. Wilson, who I
4 served on the Trust with for about two years,
5 seconded the motion, and it was unanimously adopted.
6 This site didn't, as you say, didn't come out
7 about by accident. We studied all 53,000 acres in
8 south Walton County. Pursuant to the legislative
9 directive that created the south Walton Conservation
10 and Development Trust, the Trust conducted an
11 environmental analysis of all 53,000 acres of south
12 Walton and a complete and environmental database from
13 new aerial infrared photogrammetry was created.
14 The analysis was conducted using the Division of
15 Forestry and the Florida Sanctuary Inventory of
16 characerizations of the landscape. A series of
17 interactive meetings were held and discussed and
18 assess the potential for acquisition or disposition.
19 Based on that review, the Trust plan recommended
20 the following parcels that some have suggested as
21 being the alternate site. This is miscellaneous
22 scattering of State-owned parcels distributed between
23 the McNamara (ph) and the new town site.
24 These parcels also have priority for
25 conservation, residential use with the emphasis on
95
1 retaining forestry activities. These parcels range
2 from 10 to 50 acres. Each parcel, regardless of the
3 size and basic density allow only one unit.
4 Conservation and residential development of
5 criterion and requirements shall be our additional
6 uses for those lands, including wetland mitigation
7 and innovative stormwater management. This is the
8 alternative site they are discussing.
9 Putting the government functions on these lands
10 is in violation of the comprehensive plan. The
11 development on these parcels would have a direct
12 effect on Hogtown Bayou.
13 The present site that we are supporting is three
14 to four miles from Hogtown Bayou. The other
15 alternate site proposed would have direct runoff into
16 Hogtown Bayou and Churchill Bayou. It's not suitable
17 based on traffic studies that were conducted by the
18 Trust. And two of the parcels considered to have a
19 low ecological value are targeted by DEP for an
20 innovative stormwater treatment program.
21 The largest group of parcels with Highway 98
22 access total about 90 acres. These were determined
23 to be a very high ecological significance, much
24 higher than the lands currently designated for the
25 town center.
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1 One of the directions of the legislation
2 creating the Trust was, "The plan shall provide for
3 innovatively designed energy efficient future
4 development, adequate public facilities, which are
5 concurrent with development, and the acquisition and
6 disposition of public lands within the planning
7 area."
8 The scattering of government uses over the
9 landscape results in urban sprawl, more use of cars
10 and more pollution. The appropriate place for the
11 new town center is where it is cited.
12 And we went through approximately two years and
13 an $800,000 appropriation from the Legislature, plus
14 an additional $250,000 to study this plan, which
15 didn't come about by accident.
16 The site also is in the exact geographic center
17 of south Walton County. If you drew a radius around
18 the site, you would take in the entire south county;
19 you would also take in all of the developing area
20 north of Choctawhatchee Bay.
21 We are still part of Walton County. We are
22 taking and serve the area south of Highway 20, a
23 rapidly developing area on the bay, so we would have
24 courthouse annex and all the government facilities to
25 serve that large population base that's developing
97
1 there.
2 In addition, St. Joe Paper Company is developing
3 property and probably will make an announcement the
4 first of next month to develop a large site in the
5 Seagrove area. Also they own land in the Camp Creek
6 area and the Deer Lake area. That they are, as I
7 understand it from Peter Rummel (ph), would be some
8 of their first lands that they developed.
9 So that right now the question that Mr. Milligan
10 asked about where the population base is, the largest
11 base is to the west of this site, but it will not be
12 10 years from now. This will be, I think, not only
13 the geographic center, but the population center.
14 It's -- the St. Joe's development is going to make a
15 tremendous impact. You already have Seaside, Grayton
16 Beach, Eastern Lake, Rosemary Beach, which is growing
17 rapidly.
18 I hope that addresses that issue.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So, Commissioner, I don't
20 mean to interrupt you, but if I heard you correctly,
21 and I think I did, your answer to the question was
22 that there was extensive research on not just this
23 parcel of property but two years of investigation of
24 other potential sites within that area, and that you
25 and -- not just you, but those involved determined
98
1 that this particular site was the most appropriate
2 for the town center that would serve the population,
3 not just south of Choctawhatchee Bay, but Walton
4 County in general.
5 MR. BUTLER: Yes, sir.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But that potential for
7 growth in the western part of south Walton County
8 would be one of the contributing factors that would
9 lead you to believe that this is an appropriate site.
10 MR. BUTLER: The greatest in the east part.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir, I am sorry.
12 MR. BUTLER: Yes. That's correct.
13 I am not sure I identified myself. I am Van
14 Ness Butler, and I am a native of south Walton
15 County. And, in fact, the third generation native. I
16 guess we natives are an endangered species.
17 We have our entire County Commission here today,
18 plus our constitutional officers, Mr. Bill Young, the
19 Chairman of the Commission, Randall Innfinger. Joel
20 Call and Gordon Porter; and our constitutional
21 officer, Quinn McMillian, the Sheriff, and Bill
22 Fountain, the property appraiser, and Dan Bodiford,
23 the Clerk of the Court, and Sue Carter, the Tax
24 Collector.
25 Every one of them are concerned about this
99
1 issue.
2 Would you please stand up?
3 (Applause from the audience.)
4 MR. BUTLER: I think this gives you a clear
5 indication of Walton County's support for this site
6 and their desire to meet the needs of their
7 constituents.
8 I don't suppose there is any point in recapping
9 this, you know, on the precession of how things
10 happened, I mean, the purchase in May of '92, and so
11 on, and the Legislature appropriating the money for
12 the study and all of that.
13 So if I can answer any other questions for you.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any questions?
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes, sir. Just one quick
16 question.
17 Van, you made a statement that one package of
18 land that you did look at, 90 acres, is fronting on
19 98, not too far from the 30A intersection, and about
20 three or four miles, I guess, west of the proposed
21 site, that those 90 acres were of higher ecological
22 benefit or value than that which you have selected
23 for the town center?
24 MR. GUEST: Yes, sir. That was the
25 determination that was made.
100
1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: By?
2 MR. BUTLER: The Florida -- well, all of the
3 environmental studies that were done, there were a
4 combination of studies that were done, and it was --
5 the determination was made by the Trust after they
6 got input from all the studies.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
9 MR. BUTLER: I -- you know, I really -- I --
10 TREASURER NELSON: I think that what the
11 Comptroller has raised a very important issue. The
12 question is, is the land to the west more
13 ecologically sensitive than the present site?
14 MR. BUTLER: That was the determination made. In
15 fact, that -- some of that land in that general area,
16 they felt should be acquired -- more should be
17 acquired to create a greenway from Topsail on the
18 Gulf to the Bay; and -- anyway, that was the
19 determination made by the Trust, and it was
20 thoroughly studied, believe me.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
22 MR. BUTLER: Gentlemen, I -- you know, Walton
23 County is looking for you to honor your commitment to
24 Walton County. We have worked so hard on this that
25 we are getting a little bit exasperated with it, and
101
1 I know it's been a long process and a lot of new
2 people on here, but it's in my mind that the Cabinet
3 made a commitment to the Walton County and the
4 Legislature to back it up, and we want to see some
5 action on it.
6 Thank you.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Mr. Commissioner, do you think
8 we might be in danger -- Mr. Commissioner?
9 MR. BUTLER: Yes, sir.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: I just wonder if you think we
11 might be in danger of setting a precedent if we kept
12 our word on this?
13 (Applause from the audience.)
14 MS. WETHERELL: We have three speakers left on
15 the opposition side with seven minutes remaining. If
16 I can go ahead and call on Manuel Fuller.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: How much time is remaining?
18 MS. WETHERELL: You have got 13 minutes left for
19 comments. I am not counting questions that you
20 asked.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: I thought you said 20 minutes
22 was set aside?
23 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir, we did. And you have
24 had 13 minutes of actual presentations by the
25 opponents.
102
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: By the opponents?
2 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir. I am not counting the
3 time y'all asked questions.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: You mean George said all of
5 that in 13 minutes?
6 MS. WETHERELL: George, plus three others.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: My watch is not working.
8 MS. WETHERELL: I promise you we are keeping
9 time.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Go ahead.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Manuel Fuller, David Glutton and
12 Virginia Simpson.
13 MR. FULLER: Governor and Cabinet, I will depart
14 from my prepared statement. I want to say that we
15 are glad to have this debate, and we are glad that
16 you voted the way you did in '92, and that's a heck
17 of a benefit for this county.
18 We do not support the option that is before you
19 today. We would suggest two options.
20 One, evaluate the western parcels which lie
21 outside of the CARL boundary, the original as well as
22 the current. We just had a discussion about that.
23 It is true, Commissioner Nelson, that there is a
24 significant parcel within that area. The total area,
25 that's about a 90-acre, approximately 100-acre
103
1 parcel; but in those western areas outside the CARL
2 boundary, the total acreage is approximately 400
3 acres. There are wetlands within that. I think
4 probably half of those properties would not be
5 suitable. That leaves about 200 acres.
6 We would request as an option that staff
7 evaluate those 200 acres and see if the public
8 facilities that are proposed for the town center
9 could be incorporated into that area. We are talking
10 anywhere from 60 to 100 acres.
11 Another option that we would like you to
12 consider would be a reduced footprint size within the
13 proposed town center boundary to include the public
14 facilities only. We believe that that -- that there
15 is a possibility where State agencies, such as the
16 State forest and the State parks could co-locate with
17 the local government and the government facilities on
18 a reduced footprint within the proposed town center.
19 And I have got -- I don't want to take all -- I
20 know we are running out of time. I have got some
21 language that would address that staff could utilize
22 in developing another option, which could, we
23 believe, tie in with the P 2000 purposes, which would
24 include recreation and conservation with a reduced
25 footprint. You could have the local government
104
1 offices, and you could have an office with the State
2 parks and the State forest to welcome a shared office
3 and welcomed to south Walton naturally concept, which
4 is really the big advantage that south Walton has
5 over a lot of its neighboring counties.
6 We would like you to look at those options, and
7 we would like to work with you all closely in doing
8 that. We are not just throwing this out here to
9 throw this thing off the track. We have had informal
10 discussions, very pleasant discussions with
11 Commissioner Butler about the concepts. And he had
12 not -- we -- there was no agreement there, but we
13 have sat down and talked about some other options.
14 And we would like to see options, one, the
15 question about the parcels the 400 acres that lie to
16 the west, there are some of those that have some
17 significant natural value or wetlands value. We
18 think there are some, however, because of their very
19 isolated nature, that are right along Highway 98 and
20 some of the roads lining in there, there is a number
21 of 10 and a couple of 20-acre parcels that we think
22 might be legitimate that are uplands; and if those
23 roads weren't there, they would have some natural
24 value.
25 The proposal before you today, one of our
105
1 reasons that we have opposed it is the fact that it
2 is essentially contiguous with other State forest
3 land. It's got the same kind of -- very similar
4 natural values to the lands that are east of it,
5 south of it and west of it. And, in fact, it --
6 those properties are in a lot better condition than a
7 lot of other lands that the State owned and has
8 purchased recently. And we think it's got some
9 value.
10 So we would like you to consider two options and
11 as alternatives, as alternatives to this one.
12 And I will be glad to take any questions.
13 One thing, the new CARL boundary and the
14 discussion about the acquisition of additional
15 acreage, it's a very fast growing area. That depends
16 on willing sellers. And we think those would be
17 wonderful additions, and we support those. We don't
18 know if we will ever have the opportunity to get
19 them.
20 Thank you.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
22 MS. WETHERELL: David Gluckman, opponent, waives
23 his time; and Virginia Simpson is the last one on
24 this side.
25 MS. SIMPSON: Good morning, Governor, Cabinet
106
1 members. Thank you for taking the time. I will be
2 very brief. I can see I am sort of like the salmon
3 swimming upstream this morning, but I have done that
4 before.
5 I represent the Choctawhatchee Audubon Society,
6 and I am the vice-president, and I am going to read a
7 statement prepared by our conservation chair, Bob
8 Lee, who I think you are quite familiar with.
9 On behalf of the Choctawhatchee Audubon Society,
10 we want to thank Comptroller Milligan and
11 Commissioner Nelson for making the effort to come to
12 south Walton several weeks ago. Your decision on
13 giving up preservation land for a new town center
14 south of Choctawhatchee Bay will have crucial and
15 enduring impact on policy for State-owned lands. Our
16 directors have reaffirmed Audubon's opposition to
17 this unwise proposal.
18 Several factors argue against concentrating new
19 developments south of the bay; traffic congestion,
20 hurricane evacuation, freshwater shortage and
21 wastewater burden on an already declining bay are
22 serious problems, any one of which should be enough
23 to deter the idea.
24 However, if it's decided that south Walton must
25 have a new town, why use preservation land? Thousands
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1 of acres of potential tax base lie undeveloped. Why
2 not use private land and let private interests drive
3 the initiative?
4 We urge you not to break faith with Preservation
5 2000 and to deny this disposal of State-owned land.
6 Future generations will be grateful that Florida had
7 the foresight to preserve everything possible within
8 south Walton's original CARL boundary.
9 And I would like to say, although it's not part
10 of this letter, that I agree with the previous
11 speaker. Our main objection to this is that the land
12 in question lies within the original CARL boundary.
13 And if you have to sell some of the -- or give away
14 some of the Preservation 2000 land, we prefer that it
15 be land outside the original CARL boundary.
16 Thank you very much.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you ma'am.
18 MS. WETHERELL: There is 13 minutes now
19 remaining for the proponents, and I will call two at
20 a time to save time.
21 Alise Erwin and Jim Resler (ph).
22 MR. RESLER: I am Jim Resler. I am president of
23 the San Destin Resorts. We are the largest resort
24 and largest taxpayer. We participated in this
25 process and looked at all the alternatives. I think
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1 there is a lot of citizen input. We urge that you go
2 ahead and adopt this. I don't think any site is
3 perfect. There are going to be pluses minuses to all
4 of them, but I think this is the best one.
5 Thank you.
6 (Applause from the audience.)
7 MS. ERWIN: Good morning, or afternoon, as the
8 case may be. My name is A-l-i-s-e Erwin, and I am a
9 citizen. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the
10 Library Friends.
11 I want to thank you all for taking your job
12 seriously and tell you that we are very proud to have
13 been a part of the citizen groups that have studied
14 south Walton County and what is best now and in the
15 future for the County. Obviously, as the library
16 people, we are interested not only in the current
17 situation but in the future.
18 I think the essential problem that we are having
19 in our county is that we can't get an absolute 100
20 percent guarantee that all of the rules and
21 regulations and promises are going to still be met
22 for the future generations.
23 Of course, we would like to think that the rules
24 and the plans are going to be observed. We would
25 like to have that faith. We are aware that it was
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1 called a Trust plan, and we would like to be able to
2 trust that that will happen.
3 You, as the Cabinet, are the people who we have
4 to place the most trust in.
5 We, in the library, are interested in a place to
6 put a new building, but we are also interested in a
7 place that will observe the ecological
8 considerations, and we are on the same side in that.
9 However, we do know that there has been a great,
10 great deal of study by people far better than I am to
11 make decisions about what is the best location. And
12 I would like to urge you to go along with those
13 recommendations and vote in favor of the new town
14 center.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
16 (Applause from the audience.)
17 MS. WETHERELL: I am going to call next Bob Dean
18 and Lourdes Forhay (ph).
19 MR. DEAN: Governor and Cabinet, my name is Bob
20 Dean. I am the Director of Habitat For Humanity of
21 Walton County. I represent the majority of 600
22 people that we just sent out our newsletter last
23 week, contributors and volunteers of Walton County.
24 Affordable housing is desperately needed in
25 Walton County. The median income for the County in
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1 1994 was $27,000. Last year, the median income had
2 jumped to $33,000; and that means that the County is
3 growing at a fast pace. And any businessman from
4 Rosemary Beach to Seaside to San Destin to Silver
5 Sands Shopping Center will tell you that their
6 biggest problem is to find employees, and the
7 employees' biggest problem is affordable housing,
8 what they can afford.
9 Habitat builds houses that are valued at resale
10 about $60,000, it costs us about 39,000. And that
11 serves a segment of the population that makes income
12 from 12,000 to 24,000. But then there is another
13 segment income from 24,000 to 36,000 that are still
14 within the median income bracket that does not have
15 affordable housing.
16 There is practically no housing available in
17 south Walton County at the $100,000 mark. The
18 builders are busy building houses now at 300,000,
19 400,000 and 500,000. And no one, except Max
20 Matthews, that right now that are addressing that
21 issue from a private standpoint of building
22 affordable housing.
23 So we have raised the awareness of the need for
24 affordable housing. Some have suggested to reduce
25 the footprint of the town center. Well, you don't
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1 have a town, unless you have people living in it.
2 What a perfect opportunity for me working with
3 Habitat to be involved in the very beginning of
4 planning a new town where the kids can go to the
5 library, can go down to shop, for a day care center,
6 for this type thing. It's -- you know, it's a
7 developer or one of my folks, it's a dream come true.
8 And if we miss this opportunity and say, no,
9 today, I assure you that it will never happen. Some
10 would say, let's look at another location. Well,
11 that's well and good, except are we going to go
12 through five more years of looking at another
13 location that was looked at once before? Is the
14 Cabinet or the Legislature going to give us another
15 million dollars? I think not.
16 I am not willing to put another five years into
17 this study, and I doubt if the Commissioners and a
18 lot of folks who have put many, many hundreds of
19 hours into this planning process; and Mr. Milligan, I
20 assure you that for the last five years the meetings
21 I have gone to, every side, pro and con, has been
22 there at those meetings. And at this point in time,
23 when we start looking at other sites, you know,
24 that's inappropriate. That should have been
25 addressed five years ago.
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1 So I would ask you to say yes to the town center
2 and not to decrease the footprint of the town center,
3 but look at housing and the desperate need for
4 housing in this area.
5 Thank you.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a
8 question.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You talk about
11 affordable housing in this area, with most homes
12 going for a couple $100,000 range. What do you
13 anticipate an affordable housing will cost on this
14 footprint?
15 MR. RESLER: On this footprint? It depends on
16 what the cost is going to be. If I can get the land
17 for what you gave for it, I can build $39,000 homes.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How many want a
19 $39,000 home in south Walton County?
20 MR. RESLER: That's to be determined. And I
21 that one of the recommendations in the Trust about a
22 year ago is that there is 50 sites, two concaves
23 addressed for affordable housing. Not all of them
24 will be habitat houses that I can build for 39,000
25 that will appraise for 60 or 70, but there should be
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1 some 100,000 or $125,000 homes in the area, too.
2 There is 50. But 50 is really a drop in the bucket,
3 but it's a start. And I am sure that Lourdes will
4 address this from the architectural standpoint, there
5 is other locations that the town center with a lot
6 more expensive affordable housing, but right now, no
7 one is building $100,00 affordable housing.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
9 MR. RESLER: Anymore questions?
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
11 MR. RESLER: Thank you, Governor.
12 MS. FORHAY: Hello, my name -- I am a resident
13 of Seagrove Beach, and my name is Lourdes Forhay.
14 Progress is the result of people's willingness
15 to accept each other's strides and build upon them.
16 The needs to provide decent housing is vital, and
17 that need is emphasized as the population of south
18 Walton County continues to grow.
19 The fact is growth cannot be stopped. The truth
20 is that we have an opportunity to learn and teach our
21 children and neighbors how we might approach growth
22 in a sensible manner. The impasse at this point is
23 not the appropriate density or location of the site
24 or the uses that have been interacted within the
25 plan. This is not the problem.
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1 The main concern is, do the County officials,
2 the State officials and the residents of south Walton
3 County have the courage and are forward thinking
4 enough to be committed to continue the process that
5 was started in 1992? I believe we are.
6 I believe that the safeguards to carefully
7 control a successful outcome will be there. The
8 restrictive deeds must be there. The iron clad town
9 boundaries will be there. All the issues that have
10 been raised will be addressed as the plan develops.
11 But the plan must continue to develop in order to
12 allow for decent affordable housing for young and old
13 alike. To allow for this center to have a library, a
14 school and a college all within walking distances
15 from the housing component of the plan. This is the
16 backbone of a sustainable community.
17 The housing component of the plan is crucial. It
18 is the component that creates the difference between
19 a sustainable community and not sustainable
20 community. It allows for the idea of walkable
21 environments that will help resolve the traffic and
22 congestion problem caused by the dependents on the
23 automobile.
24 The automobile is here to stay. The question
25 is, how much of our environment do we want to
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1 sacrifice in order to reach a pharmacy or a moving
2 theater.
3 Thank you. Please vote yes.
4 (Applause from the audience.)
5 MS. WETHERELL: The final two speakers are
6 Cassie Keys and County Commissioner Bill Young.
7 MS. KEYS: I waive my time and urge you to
8 support the town center.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. YOUNG: Governor Chiles, distinguished
11 Cabinet members, I just want to thank you all and the
12 three of you in particular this morning who looked so
13 far down the road and protected our interests in
14 Walton County several years ago. We are just very,
15 very grateful that you looked down the road and did
16 that.
17 Governor Chiles, Attorney General Butterworth
18 and Commissioner Crawford, the three of you were
19 looking out for us, and we greatly appreciate it.
20 It's been emphasized here this morning that a
21 great deal of study has been done on this situation.
22 The State, the Legislature, the Cabinet, many, many
23 dollars have been expended in studying this
24 particular problem. As I understand it, a total of
25 about 1,050,000 at least; 250 of that was done on an
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1 ecological study.
2 Many, many people were involved in this study,
3 as I recall and understand it. They numbered not in
4 just the tens, but the low 100s. A tremendous amount
5 of study was done in trying to pick the best
6 location. And I think all of these people did a
7 wonderful job, and I just would like to ask you today
8 to just consider all of the massive amount of work
9 that has been done. All of our County Commissioners
10 are here today to indicate our support of this
11 particular effort, and all of our constitutional
12 officers have all stood to show their support for it.
13 And we just ask you, as humbly and respectfully
14 as we can, to let us go ahead and fulfill what we see
15 as a vital necessity for Walton County and begin work
16 on this new town center and see if we can come up
17 with something that is very, very functional,
18 worthwhile and beneficial to the people of south
19 Walton, and at the same time, it will be very, very
20 environmentally sensitive.
21 Thank you very much.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
23 (Applause from the audience.)
24 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes the speakers.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. Just a couple of
2 comments.
3 One, my agency is responsible for the management
4 of this property, so we have taken, of course, a
5 close look at all the questions involved. And there
6 are several questions that are before us, I think.
7 And unlike what he was trying to say, I don't think
8 he was separating the question.
9 The first question that Comptroller Milligan
10 raised was an excellent question is, is this a good
11 spot for the town center? And I think the studies
12 and the local people have answered that question
13 quite adequately, that this is a very desirable spot
14 for the town center. And I am at least satisfied
15 with that answer based on the testimony today.
16 The second question; is it reasonable for the
17 State to release this land from the forest project
18 that is an excellent project that we are having the
19 responsibility for managing? And I think the answer
20 to that question is yes. And we have looked at that
21 very carefully. We love managed forest property in
22 the State. We manage over a billion acres. With
23 this additional 1,600, we hope to manage more.
24 The 400-plus acres we are talking about is not
25 that desirable as compared to the rest of the
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1 acreage. It was -- most of the area managed by the
2 previous owner, it's mostly clear-cut, it's very
3 disturbed property, it's planted out in slash pines;
4 it will take about 25 years for maturity.
5 From the standpoint of management, it is very
6 difficult for us to manage this kind of property
7 because of all the in-holdings there, the burnings
8 that have to take place are very difficult, the roads
9 that are in the area.
10 So from that standpoint, it's not the most
11 desirable piece out there. If it was, we would be
12 fighting to keep it in the boundary. But I think we
13 can release it from the forestry project and have a
14 tremendous project for, not only for Walton County,
15 but for the State. And that goes back to the '92
16 vote for a lot of people here that purchased and
17 acquire that.
18 So I would like to move the approval of the
19 subject item and add some conditions. I have passed
20 these conditions around. I won't read all of them. I
21 think we haven't heard any oppositions to most of
22 them. Maybe there is some question about one of
23 them.
24 The first condition is; all funds generated from
25 the sale of the property will be added to the funds
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1 already identified for the acquisition of Point
2 Washington State Forest area.
3 Second, the Board of Trustees direct to
4 expedited acquisition of the Point Washington State
5 Forest portion of the CARL project, and that all the
6 deed restrictions are certainly to be included and
7 met; if any are not met, then the property would
8 divert back to the Board of Trustees.
9 The disposition of subject parcels will be
10 considered parcel by parcel, and the basis, on each
11 basis in south Walton County will be permitted to
12 purchase on those parcels needed for the public or
13 government use. And that -- of course all those
14 issues will come back before us so we can make
15 individual determinations.
16 This determination should not be considered
17 precedent but scored further dispositions or
18 Preservation 2000 lands that were intended to be
19 acquired as a part of the planned CARL project.
20 And then lastly and number six; the Board of
21 Trustees directs Lemak (ph) to establish disposition
22 criteria for State-owned Preservation 2000 and
23 acquired lands and natural resource lands prior to
24 any further determination or dispositions of those
25 properties.
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1 I think these conditions tie down the State's
2 interest and what's occurring here today and make
3 this a very viable and important project. And it
4 does keep our word to the people of Walton County,
5 and that cannot be overlooked in its importance.
6 And with those conditions, I would like to move
7 the item.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, could I get a
10 clarification, please?
11 On paragraph four in the paper, you talked about
12 permitting the purchase of only those parcels needed
13 for public, slant, governmental use. That precludes,
14 then, the discussion of any private use of
15 development, such as a habitat, the housing we were
16 just talking about.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: The public purpose would
18 include -- it could include private use; but the --
19 those determinations would be made by this panel on a
20 case-by-case basis as those individual properties
21 would --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I certainly could accept
23 the language as long as its understood that the
24 parcels would be looked at and determined as to
25 whether or not they were appropriate regardless of
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1 whether they were for public or private use.
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That is the intent of
3 that number four.
4 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Governor.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
6 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: I also have some
7 question about number four, and maybe it's -- first,
8 a question, is it your determination in writing
9 number four that the disposition of each of these
10 parcels would be brought before this body
11 individually or as an entire parcel?
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think it kind of
13 depends on how this thing transpires. And once we --
14 if, in fact, we make the decision today to allow this
15 to go forward, then the County and the private
16 interests have got to then respond as to exactly what
17 they want to do, and then they have to bring that
18 back to us. The Secretary might be able to comment
19 on that as well.
20 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Well, Governor, it
21 would seem to me that, if, in fact, we are going to
22 go forward with this plan and, in fact, allow both
23 public and private, and I would suggest that number
24 four probably should say public, slash, private use,
25 that we, in fact, look at this as a collective
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1 project, as a whole project. And I would suggest
2 that a working group, whose mission it would be to
3 put together a comprehensive plan for this area, come
4 back with a recommendation so it would be a one time
5 deal where we would sea the entire project.
6 And I would suggest that the working group be
7 made up of one representative from DEP, one from
8 Community Affairs, one from the Florida Wildlife
9 Federation, one from Florida Audubon, one from Sierra
10 Club, and Beachton Bay, and then four representatives
11 from the Walton County Commission and Governor,
12 because you are the Chair of the Trustees, I would
13 suggest that your representative would be designated
14 chairman.
15 And with this group working together to bring
16 back the final plan, it would seem to me that they
17 wouldn't have to keep coming back on a per parcel
18 basis. I don't think that it's fair to this group of
19 people, the County Commissioner, constitutional
20 officers and the residents to have to look at every
21 single one of these parcels individually.
22 And by this group working together, I would
23 think they could come up with a comprehensive plan
24 with a recommendation coming back to this body.
25 So I would like to substitute that for item
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1 four. Not -- I am not sure there was a second to the
2 first motion yet, but --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Wouldn't it be nice if
4 Commissioner Crawford would just agree to substitute
5 that in item four, and we don't have to vote on it?
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I have no objection.
7 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Then I will second
8 the whole thing.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Governor, I need to make a
10 suggestion if I might, too.
11 Commissioner, on, item three, our General
12 Counsel says that the way that it's written could
13 cause a problem in being able to borrow funds. And I
14 don't think that was your intent. If you could
15 remove the reverter language, you won't have that
16 problem in the future borrowing money for these
17 transactions.
18 If you just strike the second sentence, it will
19 accomplish the same thing. What we are saying if you
20 just leave the first sentence, if you need to convey
21 the town center area, include deed restrictions as
22 outlined by Elmax (ph) conditions and recommendations
23 to this board; because these deed restrictions are
24 already enforceable by the courts, and that would
25 accomplish your --
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I don't have any
2 objection to that.
3 MS. WETHERELL: So we are removing the second
4 sentence.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: So what you are doing,
6 Secretary, is sort of an amendment to what he is
7 doing?
8 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: A substitute to
9 item four.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, is it -- a substitute
11 normally carries it down, an amendment does not.
12 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Okay. Whatever the
13 correct parliamentary procedure is.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: If you are going to
15 substitute, then Commissioner Crawford is not
16 withdrawn to your substitute, so you're amending
17 yours.
18 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Okay. To delete
19 four and add the other language.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
21 Yes, sir.
22 TREASURER NELSON: Well, you have got an amended
23 version, and it's been seconded.
24 I am going to support the motion, because when
25 -- the question in my mind has, been where should the
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1 town center be located, at the present site or in
2 another site?
3 Comptroller Milligan and I went out and looked
4 at both of those areas. And I put the question to
5 Murley and several others today about the ecological
6 sensitivity of the western most site; and I got the
7 distinct impression from all of the people that I put
8 that question to, including Murley yesterday on the
9 telephone, that there is more ecological sensitivity
10 and more wetlands involved in the western most
11 particular location that we were looking at.
12 So I am prepared to support the motion.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there further discussion?
14 So many as heard signify by saying aye.
15 (Chorus of ayes.)
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed? No.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Ayes have it.
19 (Applause from the audience.)
20 MS. WETHERELL: Item 17 is modification of a
21 submerged land lease and placement of riprap.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval, if it
23 hadn't been moved already.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and seconded;
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1 without objection, it's approved.
2 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 18 is a
3 submerged land lease, severance and placement of
4 riprap.
5 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion and a
8 second?
9 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Yes.
10 MS. WETHERELL: Yes.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, it's
12 approved.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: One quick
14 question, if I can, of Kirby Green.
15 Kirby, you know we are having some -- I know
16 you're attempting to identify some other use of
17 sovereign submerged lands from Gangling cruisers. Are
18 you able to keep track of these, how you are doing
19 that?
20 MR. GREEN: Yes, sir. We have had a problem
21 with that. We have identified six that were
22 conversions of old commercial submerged land leases.
23 What we are seeing is they will move into a
24 commercial previously leased area and cause some
25 environmental damage along with increase in the
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1 square footage that they would have to have under
2 lease to be able to carry out those activities.
3 So what we have done both on new leases that we
4 are sending out, renewals of leases, we are putting a
5 condition in it that requires the lessee to notify us
6 for any changes in commercial activities that may
7 occur at the site, so that environmentally we can
8 take a look at to make sure that they are not causing
9 other environmental harms associated with that change
10 in use. And those have to come back to the Board,
11 come back to the Department to look at, and some of
12 those would have to come back to you.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And you are also,
14 I believe, including new approval, modification of
15 renewal, special condition that approval future
16 policy with special conditions, the Board may adopt
17 restrictions in --
18 MR. GREEN: That's correct.
19 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes our agenda.
20 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Thank you very
21 much.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Motion to rise.
23 SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM: Rise.
24 (Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded at
12:25 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
3 COUNTY OF LEON )
4 I, DEBRA ROTRUCK KRICK, Court Reporter at
5 Tallahassee, Florida, do hereby certify as follows:
6 THAT I correctly reported in shorthand the
7 foregoing proceedings at the time and place stated in the
8 caption hereof;
9 THAT I later reduced the shorthand notes to
10 typewriting, or under my supervision, and that the
11 foregoing pages 10 through 127 represent a true, correct,
12 and complete transcript of said proceedings;
13 And I further certify that I am not of kin or
14 counsel to the parties in the case; am not in the regular
15 employ of counsel for any of said parties; nor am I in
16 anywise interested in the result of said case.
17 DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF AUGUST, 1997.
18
19
20
21 __________________________
22 DEBRA ROTRUCK KRICK
23 Court Reporter
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