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Cabinet
Affairs |
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
6 DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
7 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
8 ST. JOHN'S RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT
BOARD OF TRUSTEES, INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
9 DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
10
The above agencies came to be heard before
11 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
12 The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
October 21, 1997, commencing at approximately
13 10:15 a.m.
14
15
16 Reported by:
17 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
18 Certified Court Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
19 Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850/878-2221
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
4
BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
7
SANDRA B. MORTHAM
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
10
BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN
Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 21, 1997
3
1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT:
(Presented by James T. Moore,
4 Executive Director)
5 1 Approved 95
2 Approved 95
6 3 Approved 96
7 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
(Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
8 Executive Director)
9 1 Approved 97
2 Deferred 99
10 3 Approved 99
4 Approved 106
11
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
12 (Presented by Robert L. Bedford, Ph.D.,
Deputy Commissioner)
13
1 Approved 55
14 2 Approved 74
3 Approved 75
15 4 Approved 75
5 Report 77
16 6 Withdrawn 90
7 Approved 92
17 8 Approved 93
9 Approved 93
18 10 Approved 93
11 Approved 94
19
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
20 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
Secretary)
21
1 Approved 107
22 2 Approved 107
3 Approved 107
23 4 Approved 108
5 Approved 108
24 6 Approved 109
7 Approved 116
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 21, 1997
4
1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
4 ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
(Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
5 Secretary)
6 1 Approved 117
2 Approved 150
7 3 Approved 150
8 ST. JOHNS RIVER
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT:
9 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
10
1 through 3 Withdrawn 151
11
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
12 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
13 (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
Secretary)
14
1 Approved 6
15 2 Approved 6
Substitute 3 Approved 7
16 4 Approved 7
5 Deferred 7
17 6 Approved 7
7 Approved 8
18 8 Approved 8
9 Approved 8
19 10 Approved 9
11 Approved 9
20 12 Approved 9
13 Approved 9
21 14 Approved 10
15 Approved 54
22 Substitute 16 Approved 50
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 21, 1997
5
1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION:
4 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
5
1 Approved 152
6 2 Approved 153
Substitute 3 Approved 157
7
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 158
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:16 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: We're going to skip
4 around just a little bit today. And the --
5 we're going to the Board of Trustees' agenda,
6 and take that agenda up right now, if we might.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
8 Item 1 are minutes.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, minutes are approved.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Item 2, a quarterly
14 management report.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, that's approved.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute Item 3 is
20 acceptance of the Northwest Florida Water
21 Management District's land acquisition
22 procedures.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
7
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Item 4 is an annual land
4 management review.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move acceptance.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, that's approved.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Item 5 is a sublease
10 agreement between Department of Children and
11 Family Services and Olympia Spa.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I'd like to
13 move deferral.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a motion to
15 defer.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
18 Without objection, it's deferred.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Item 6 is an acquisition
20 agreement with South Florida Water Management
21 District for Atlantic Ridge.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
8
1 MS. WETHERELL: Item 7 is an acquisition
2 agreement with the Southwest Florida Water
3 Management District for Cape Haze.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Item 8 is an option
9 agreement for the Fort Mose addition to
10 Recreation and Parks.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, that's approved.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Item 9 are two option
17 agreements for Florida First Magnitude Springs
18 CARL project.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10 is an option
25 agreement for Rookery Bay CARL project.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Move approval.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, that's approved.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Item 11, an option
7 agreement for Shell Island Recreation and Parks
8 Inholding and a waiver of survey.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, that's approved.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Item 12 is an option
14 agreement for Longleaf Pine Ecosystem CARL
15 project.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Item 13 is an option
21 agreement for Archie Carr CARL project.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, that's approved.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
10
1 MS. WETHERELL: Item 14 are five option
2 agreements for Chassahowitzka Wildlife
3 Management Area for Florida Game Commission.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, that's approved.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Item 15 -- and there's
9 speakers on this one -- Metro Machine, we're
10 recommending that you rescind the conceptual
11 approval since the Navy has withdrawn their
12 RFP.
13 And there are three speakers who wish to
14 briefly speak.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Could we -- could
16 we go to the next item, come back to this one?
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's -- let's skip over
18 the next one --
19 MS. WETHERELL: All right. Temporarily
20 pass that item?
21 Okay.
22 All right. Item 16 -- Substitute Item 16
23 is yachting promotions with the staff
24 recommending a three-day -- excuse me -- a
25 30-day special event lease.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
11
1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I move that
2 we grant the applicant a five-year lease with a
3 fee schedule based on 7 percent of rental values
4 from the leased area, or 11 cents a square foot
5 prorated for two months, whichever is greater,
6 pursuant to the existing rule.
7 And then in addition, a 25 percent one-time
8 surcharge for the first year of the lease. And
9 finally, an administrative fine of $2500 a day
10 beginning October 14th through the date of the
11 execution of this lease.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 MS. WETHERELL: There are three speakers
14 for this item as well, Governor.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I would have a
17 substitute motion.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Should I state it?
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
21 TREASURER NELSON: I move that we grant the
22 applicant a one-year special event lease with a
23 fee schedule based on 7 percent of rental values
24 from the leased area, or 11 cents per square
25 foot, whichever is greater.
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October 21, 1997
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1 In addition, the applicant would have to
2 abide by all Federal and State laws, including
3 those coming into effect after the date of
4 execution of this special event lease.
5 And in addition, we would direct DEP to,
6 number one, work with the applicant to resolve
7 any problems with the notice for this project,
8 and with riparian affidavit issue with the
9 current proposed lease; and, number two, work
10 with the applicant on a five-year lease to run
11 consecutively after the expiration of the
12 one-year special event lease; and, number three,
13 to begin rulemaking, if DEP wishes, for DEP and
14 the Trustees to have the authority to charge
15 fees for special events which vary from the
16 current Trustee rule provisions.
17 And, four, finally, the issuance of an
18 administrative fine of $2500 per day beginning
19 October the 14th, '97, through the date of the
20 execution of this lease.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll second
22 that, Governor.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. That's been
24 moved and seconded.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
13
1 just ask a question, please?
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could I just ask a
4 question, please?
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Sure.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Of
7 Commissioner Nelson.
8 I -- this is moving pretty quickly, and I
9 just want to make sure I understand. It
10 sounded -- the Commissioner is -- your motion
11 was the same as the Secretary's motion with some
12 addendums relative to future activities and
13 working out some issues?
14 I'm just trying to decide what's different
15 there.
16 TREASURER NELSON: I'm not sure what is --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, one is a -- one is
18 a five-year lease, period; the other is a
19 one-year lease, and a special event --
20 TREASURER NELSON: Special event lease.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- with the -- with the
22 Board -- the Department to go work up and bring
23 back a proposed five-year lease after that
24 one year.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Are all the caveats
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
14
1 in the one-year lease the same as --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, we'll just have to
3 go over that, and I --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's really where
5 I -- I believe so.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. To recapitulate,
7 it would -- the one-year special event lease
8 would be with a fee schedule based on 7 percent
9 of rental values from that particular leased
10 area, or 11 cents per square foot, whichever is
11 greater.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay.
13 TREASURER NELSON: And then --
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: That's the same.
15 TREASURER NELSON: -- in addition to
16 abiding by all of the applicable laws, DEP would
17 direct -- we would direct, in this motion, DEP
18 to do those four things that I enumerated.
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: So that the rental
20 amount is the same as the --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: The rental amount is the
22 same. And I have a question to ask on that.
23 When we say "rental value," are we talking
24 about 7 percent of the proceeds that they get,
25 or are we talking about 7 percent of what is the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
15
1 normal rental value of the boat slip?
2 My understanding -- the reason I ask that
3 question is my understanding is they charge
4 considerably more than the regular rental for a
5 boat slip. So, I mean, are we getting 7 percent
6 of what a normal charge would be out there, or
7 are we getting 7 percent of what they're
8 getting?
9 TREASURER NELSON: The Secretary looks like
10 she can answer for me.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Well, I mean, it's your
13 motion and -- and Secretary Mortham's motion.
14 But I'm reading it as though what they charge,
15 to be rental value of what they charge.
16 Now, if that's not what you intend, you
17 need to, you know, clarify that for the record.
18 But if you're going to charge them
19 7 percent of what they're getting, then that's
20 what I'm assuming --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think if --
22 MS. WETHERELL: -- in your motion.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- if we just simply
24 said -- if that's the intent -- which I hope it
25 is -- if we just said 7 percent of the rental
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
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1 proceeds, I think we'd clear it up, you know.
2 It'd --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- Governor, I
4 would agree with that if we went with gross
5 receipts from the -- the sale -- of the rental
6 of the slips in the --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- area that we're
9 discussing.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: What we actually get.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yeah.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Can I -- can I make a
13 case here?
14 I understand we've got a couple of things
15 going, one is the length of the lease, which is
16 going to be a point of discussion, one-year,
17 five years, pursuant to what issues.
18 As I've reviewed this thing, my only
19 concern with it -- and I certainly agree with
20 the concept that we need to look at a special
21 project lease.
22 But my real concern is the fact that we
23 really do have rule language that exists today,
24 do we not, on each and every one of these issues
25 that are included in the motion?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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October 21, 1997
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1 That would be the 7 percent. That would be
2 the issue of, I think, overall revenues, as
3 opposed to rental values. I can't remember
4 what's in the rule today, Secretary, but there's
5 specific language covered today --
6 MS. WETHERELL: Well, the rule does speak
7 to, you know, what we normally get --
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay.
9 MS. WETHERELL: -- for a normal -- for a
10 standard lease. And this wasn't a standard
11 lease, that's the difference.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I guess my
13 position is this: I certainly think we ought to
14 look at a long-term special events rule change.
15 I think that's --
16 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- appropriate, not
18 just for --
19 MS. WETHERELL: That's fine.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- for
21 Fort Lauderdale, but for everybody who wants a
22 special events consideration.
23 My concern is that we do have a rule in
24 place, and in that rule, it already lays out for
25 us exactly what the fees would be, what the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
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1 percentage would be, what the square footage
2 would be.
3 While I like very much
4 Commissioner Nelson's caveats that he laid out,
5 the four points, and I think we need to do all
6 of those things, I think to change 20 days out
7 from a special event like this, the rules, and
8 inject some -- some language that is -- that's a
9 little arbitrary at this point, is a problem.
10 While I think we're 20 days out from this
11 thing, in my opinion, it would be not only the
12 easiest, but I think the most appropriate to use
13 the language that we currently have in rule,
14 then I think it'd be very appropriate to take up
15 the whole rule for special event purposes and
16 begin to make that change with everybody who
17 asks for a special events lease, including
18 Fort Lauderdale in the future.
19 But I think to change it 20 days out, and
20 start to tinker with the language, while, yes,
21 we'd probably get some more money, I think we
22 need to remember, this thing's 38 years old,
23 and -- and I know they generate a lot of money.
24 It's about a 250 million dollar injection back
25 into the economy.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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October 21, 1997
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1 I'm just hesitant to begin to make singular
2 changes in this rule language today before we've
3 taken up the whole issue of special events
4 leasing.
5 MS. WETHERELL: If I may, my understanding
6 from the Treasurer's motion is that we will
7 begin rulemaking. You're not changing the rule
8 today for this particular applicant.
9 This application was unique from any
10 that -- of the others that we've seen for boat
11 shows; and I've seen them all, you know, since
12 '88. And this one is unique from the
13 standpoint of the ownership interest, and that's
14 how this all got started was that the ownership
15 was different.
16 And we wanted to accommodate them because
17 we understand that it is an economic issue for
18 Broward County. And that's why we were trying
19 to work within the rule, with the existing rule,
20 although they weren't able to meet the notice
21 provisions and although they --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is it --
23 MS. WETHERELL: -- weren't able to meet the
24 ownership interest provisions, we felt like we
25 could work within the rule --
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October 21, 1997
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Sure.
2 MS. WETHERELL: -- to create --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, that's why I
4 want to be --
5 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- clear. Is it your
7 understanding that Commissioner Nelson's
8 language in his proposed motion -- and I
9 understand short of the four points that he's
10 making for future consideration -- but that his
11 motion includes the exact rule language that
12 exists today, short of that? Including the
13 issue of revenue versus --
14 MS. WETHERELL: Wait. I'm sorry.
15 Are you saying that in the first part of
16 his motion where he speaks to the one-year
17 special event and the fee schedule, am I
18 comfortable that that's provided for in the
19 rule.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is that the rule
21 language?
22 MS. WETHERELL: Yes. The 7 percent is rule
23 language, and so that's abiding by the rule.
24 It's not exactly abiding by the rule in
25 other areas in regard to notice and ownership.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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October 21, 1997
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1 But we felt comfortable in moving ahead,
2 you know, given certain, you know,
3 considerations.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, basically, in
5 large measure, it would be keeping the rules the
6 same for the next 20 days, or two months
7 following the permit of the lease, and then we
8 take up the whole issue of special events for
9 people --
10 MS. WETHERELL: That's the way I read his
11 motion.
12 TREASURER NELSON: Yeah.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is that -- is that
14 the way --
15 TREASURER NELSON: That's right. The
16 thrust of this motion is to have a one-year
17 agreement, and then directing DEP to go on and
18 work with the applicant and come back to the
19 Trustees.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor --
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- the
24 reason why I seconded --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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October 21, 1997
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- this was
2 that obviously it's a very good thing for
3 Broward County.
4 The applicant made an error, the applicant
5 did not apply with us quickly enough. It caused
6 a great deal of problems.
7 DEP has worked with the applicant, and
8 really allowing them to do things right now they
9 should not be doing right now, and should be
10 cited for, but they have let them go on.
11 I think in the long run, they will receive
12 a five-year lease on this without any problem.
13 The problem is right now is that we want to
14 treat these people the way we should, but -- but
15 if we give them too much, we are then violating,
16 I believe, the rights of the riparian upland
17 owners, and also notice issues.
18 So we're doing something really here
19 that -- that people who may wish to have an
20 input, and legally should have an input, have
21 not received a notice.
22 So for that reason, letting more than the
23 one year for this particular special event,
24 I think we're making a very serious mistake.
25 But I do think it should come back, and we
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
October 21, 1997
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1 should have it -- have the appropriate notice to
2 everybody who's involved, and then handle it as
3 we would any other case.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But for this year,
5 General -- and, again, I'm sorry I appear to be
6 so confused on this thing.
7 -- you're -- you're in support of the
8 motion that says they would get the one-year
9 lease based on the existing rules, and the fact
10 that they are going to pay the $2500 a day fines
11 for beginning early.
12 And that, then, whatever special events --
13 leases are created in the future, they would
14 have to consider under that category?
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's my
16 understanding of the Commissioner's motion.
17 If I'm wrong on that, Bill, let me --
18 TREASURER NELSON: That's correct.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, if I might --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- speak against the
22 motion -- the substitute motion.
23 First, Secretary Wetherell, when they --
24 when they applied for this lease, were they
25 applying for five years?
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October 21, 1997
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1 MS. WETHERELL: That's my understanding,
2 for the standard five-year lease.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. So I don't
4 understand. If the application was, in fact,
5 for five years, why were they noticed -- why
6 were the property owners noticed for something
7 other than for what they applied for?
8 MS. WETHERELL: They applied for a
9 five-year lease. The situation was, though,
10 that they applied late. And they did not have,
11 according to our legal staff, our
12 General Counsel, they did not have sufficient
13 ownership interest. They were not the riparian
14 owners.
15 And so the staff then began to try to find
16 a way to enable them to move ahead with the boat
17 show, but they didn't fit the rule.
18 And so staff began then to try to find a
19 way, and that way was that there was some
20 language in the rule that said other activities,
21 and so they designed this special event lease.
22 And the way that the staff was going to let
23 them get around the notice provision was that
24 they would notice all of the -- the other land
25 owners, they would notice everyone, they would
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1 run ads in the paper, even go so far as to do TV
2 ads. They would not run it the required length
3 of time, but that they would go an extra mile in
4 terms of notice to make up for that.
5 The -- they were -- it's my understanding
6 that they got letters from the riparian owners
7 saying that they didn't object. And that was
8 how we were trying to get around the fact that
9 they were not the riparian owner.
10 But they didn't fit the mold. We were
11 trying to be flexible and allow them to have the
12 boat show, although it didn't fit the particular
13 standard lease.
14 I think that the Treasurer's motion to
15 direct us to go back and provide for a special
16 event lease is probably the appropriate way to
17 go down the road so that we don't get in this
18 every time that someone comes in.
19 This is unique from all the other boat show
20 applications that I've seen in my time since
21 1988, in that our legal staff said that they did
22 not have sufficient ownership interest.
23 So that's the main issue for our staff. We
24 do want them to be able to have the boat show.
25 So the issues boil down to the amount that
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1 we would charge, and that's something that
2 you're addressing in this. You're saying that
3 you want us to charge what we normally do. We
4 felt we should charge more, but, you know, we --
5 obviously we abide by what you feel like is the
6 right way to go.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: May I --
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, what --
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Excuse me.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- if I might just
11 follow up.
12 My concern with this is that I know that
13 the applicant has spent in excess of $300,000
14 getting all of this together so that they could,
15 in fact, make the application and so forth.
16 And so from my perspective, we're talking
17 about an international show here --
18 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- that, frankly, they
20 cannot go to the various parties that will be in
21 this boat show and guarantee them a spot for
22 next year because, in fact, they don't have a
23 lease for next year.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: And from my standpoint,
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1 I -- I think that it's admirable that you all
2 have been working with them, because you want
3 them to be able to actually have this show.
4 But from our perspective, I think that we
5 need to go that extra mile.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: And, in fact, this is a
8 huge economic development tool --
9 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- for that area.
11 And so for that reason, I think for them to
12 have to go through another year -- or six months
13 or three months of having to come back to us and
14 get the exact same thing that we can give them
15 today, seems to me to be an -- you know,
16 absolutely ludicrous --
17 MS. WETHERELL: Can I --
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- when it can go
19 through.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Can I add one more thing to
21 that though that I --
22 My staff has told me that regardless of
23 what we do, there is still the issue that the
24 Coast Guard and the Florida Inland Navigation
25 District have, and that is that this particular
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1 activity is encroaching into the navigation
2 channel by so many feet, 25 feet, I believe.
3 Twenty-five feet.
4 And the Coast Guard and FIND have permitted
5 the activity for this year, but will have not
6 for the remainder of the year. This is a
7 one-year permit with them.
8 If I'm wrong, I want staff to come up,
9 because they've been dealing with this.
10 So they permit it for one year. And that
11 they're going to require that this group in the
12 future years reconfigure their activity so that
13 they spread it out along the shoreline, versus
14 going out into the channel.
15 So when they reconfigure it, they're going
16 to have to come back for different permits,
17 because they're going to be impacting a
18 different area, and they'll have structures on
19 other sovereign -- on other sovereign lands that
20 they now don't -- aren't using.
21 So they'll have to come back before you
22 anyway in order to get the permission from the
23 Coast Guard and from FIND.
24 So --
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
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1 MS. WETHERELL: -- regardless of what you
2 do, there are others that will require
3 certain --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary, I see --
5 MS. WETHERELL: -- things that are going
6 to --
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- I see --
8 MS. WETHERELL: -- bring it back.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- heads shaking to
10 that.
11 MS. WETHERELL: All right. So that's what
12 my staff has told me. And if they have
13 different information --
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well --
15 MS. WETHERELL: -- they should tell you
16 that, too.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, if I
18 could, your opening comment was the main issue
19 though that your staff had was that -- the
20 sufficiency of the ownership as it relates to
21 the riparian land owner --
22 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- that issue?
24 MS. WETHERELL: Yes.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: If that were to be
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1 resolved, would you then be in a position to
2 recommend a five-year lease?
3 MS. WETHERELL: If -- if they had
4 sufficient ownership, and they had come in in a
5 timely manner, we wouldn't, you know, have this
6 different animal -- this different creature
7 here.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. Well,
9 it's -- I don't know why -- maybe we could do
10 both, give them -- give them -- go ahead today
11 and give them the one-year lease because they've
12 got to -- they've got to get moving.
13 But go ahead and make the five-year lease
14 conditioned upon finding the sufficiency with
15 the riparian -- with the ownership as it relates
16 to the riparian land owner. So that they don't
17 have to go through this process next year and
18 start all over again, or what all -- all the
19 machinations that we -- we make the private
20 sector do all the time.
21 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Is there -- is
23 there a way to kind of do --
24 MS. WETHERELL: Well, I'm sure there's a
25 way for anything. There are multiple private
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1 land owners involved here, and City of
2 Fort Lauderdale, is my understanding. And so
3 they would have to get a leasehold interest from
4 all of those entities in order to have,
5 you know, ownership interest.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: But that would,
7 in fact, then be a six-year lease, correct?
8 So if, in fact, we were to vote down the
9 substitute motion, that motion could then be
10 substituted.
11 MS. WETHERELL: I'm sorry. I don't follow
12 the six-year part.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, if they --
14 MS. WETHERELL: They get --
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- if we give them the
16 one-year lease, and then we say, okay, they're
17 going to get a five-year lease with these exact
18 same provisions, it'd be a six-year lease with
19 the riparian -- whatever -- owners, saying that
20 that's okay. Which we've got none that are
21 opposed to it now.
22 MS. WETHERELL: I need some staff to help
23 me on that one. I don't know how to answer that
24 question. Sorry.
25 MR. GREEN: What -- what you could do is --
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1 is approve Treasurer Nelson's motion for the
2 one-year lease, and then direct us as staff to
3 go back and work -- and prepare a five-year
4 lease based on them meeting the conditions 1
5 through 4 in Treasurer Nelson's motion. And we
6 could move forward and do that. And it would
7 meet the conditions, I think, that we would --
8 that we would need to do.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Could you say that
10 again?
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Could you say that
12 again? I --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. I think that
14 would --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: In other words -- in
16 other words, approve the one-year lease under
17 the present conditions, but by approving
18 Commissioner Nelson's motion, put in play
19 immediately Items 1 through 4; and then as soon
20 as those were worked out, come back to the Board
21 of Trustees with a five-year lease that would be
22 under those particular conditions?
23 Is that what you're --
24 MR. GREEN: No. What I was saying is you
25 could do a conditional five-year lease approved
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1 today, conditioned on them -- them meeting the
2 conditions in 1 through 4. And then staff would
3 go ahead and work through the process, get all
4 these things in place, and then issue the lease.
5 Now, the -- the only strange thing about
6 that is -- is condition 3, which directs us to
7 go forward and develop a special event rule, and
8 maybe change fees for that.
9 If you move forward today, it wouldn't give
10 them any assurance -- or it wouldn't give them
11 any speed in moving through that process.
12 What it would do is it would guarantee them
13 a five-year lease, but un-- with changing
14 conditions if we went through and adopted a rule
15 under condition 3 here.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I
17 just have one question here, Kirby.
18 If the footprint changes -- as Ginger
19 stated, if the footprint changes, can you still
20 go with that conditional five-year lease, or
21 must you still do renoticing and everything
22 else?
23 I'm -- I'm very much concerned about the
24 noticing, which is not, I don't think -- it says
25 with the notice for this project. So I want the
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1 right notice, I want the right people who --
2 I mean, the worst thing we want to do is give
3 them a five-year, and let somebody take us to
4 court and say they didn't receive notice, and
5 then we're --
6 MR. GREEN: Right.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- then
8 they're out of there.
9 MR. GREEN: Typically the way that works is
10 if you've got a five-year lease and you want to
11 change the footprint, or you want to increase
12 the square footage of the lease, or change the
13 configuration, typically you ask for a
14 modification of the lease agreement. At the
15 time that the request for modification is -- is
16 asked for, we notice the riparian property
17 owners within 500 feet of the location that
18 there's been a request for modification of the
19 lease area, and -- and they have the opportunity
20 to present their comments at that point.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Has anybody
22 that you noticed, the way you have so far,
23 objected to this particular issue, whether it'd
24 be going too far into the channel, whether it'd
25 be maybe hurting their particular ventures?
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1 MR. GREEN: There were three that
2 originally had -- had said they had some
3 objections. It's my understanding that at least
4 two of those today have withdrawn that
5 objection, and the third one has -- has -- still
6 has some concerns, but the concerns aren't to
7 the level that were originally expressed in
8 their objection.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: This is why
10 notice is a key issue to some of us.
11 MR. GREEN: Right.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Kirby, the problem with
13 doing what you're saying is that if, in fact,
14 under rulemaking, you come back with a special
15 events lease policy of 20 percent, which is what
16 you came -- with what somebody came in with for
17 this particular lease, then they would then come
18 under that provision.
19 That I would be -- I mean, I'm one -- would
20 be opposed to. They came in under the current
21 rule. And, therefore, I believe that if,
22 in fact, we want to make a contingent five-year
23 after this one-year, they ought to stay under
24 the same provisions that we have today.
25 If, in fact, the Department wants to come
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1 in later on -- I mean, I think they can do it
2 without our direction -- that there's some
3 screaming need for a special events lease, then,
4 you know, so be it.
5 But I don't --
6 MR. GREEN: Without --
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- necessarily -- since
8 this is the first one, I'm not sure that there,
9 you know, is like a human cry for this.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: At the risk of
11 muddying the water, because I see what you're
12 saying.
13 But I -- I really do see in our discussions
14 that there probably is a need to discuss the
15 special events lease, not here specifically, but
16 for anyone requesting a special event.
17 And truly at the risk of muddying the
18 water, we're talking about either one-year or
19 five-year.
20 Is there any reason we have to do these in
21 those increments? Do we have the ability to
22 grant a lease for two years, giving these people
23 the understanding, and as the Secretary said,
24 that they've got not only this year, but next
25 year to begin advertising the boat show, and
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1 working on the boat show, continue this
2 process.
3 And then if there are any changes to the
4 rule or special events rule hence, third year,
5 fourth year, fifth year, that those will be
6 granted condition and subject to that special
7 events change?
8 Grant a two-year lease as is, under the
9 present rule language.
10 MR. GREEN: Commissioner, the only -- the
11 only thing that may interfere with that is if
12 one of the riparian owners decided they wanted
13 to come in and expand their lease area into part
14 of the area that we currently have covered by
15 this special event lease, we would -- we would
16 have to put a caveat in the lease agreement that
17 would say that in the event that the riparian
18 owner wishes to encroach within that area, that
19 their right would supersede the right of this
20 special event.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is that not always a
22 possibility --
23 MR. GREEN: Lease.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- when you grant a
25 five-year lease?
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1 MR. GREEN: Well, typically, when you grant
2 a five-year lease, you do it to the riparian
3 owner, and he has interest in the land.
4 So it would be him that would be coming
5 back asking for a modification of that. In this
6 case, we have someone who doesn't have riparian
7 ownership. What they have is a letter from the
8 riparian owner, or an affidavit from the owner
9 saying, we don't object to you carrying out
10 these activities within our riparian area for a
11 period of time.
12 So the riparian owner could come back and
13 say, we want to extend out in there. That's
14 just a what-if, but they could. And so we'd
15 have to structure it so this lease was not
16 superior to the right of the riparian owner.
17 But we could do that. We could do a
18 two-year --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: It sounds like to me that
20 Kirby has proposed something that sounds like it
21 meets most of the -- what everybody's talking
22 about here.
23 Grant a one-year lease now, allow them to
24 go forward on the basis of they pay this fine on
25 the -- they started early; conditionally approve
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1 a five-year lease subject to the conditions 1,
2 2, 3, and 4, that Commissioner Nelson has set
3 out in his motion. And then it becomes more of
4 a staff function to see that we've complied and
5 dotted those i's and crossed those t's.
6 You know, I think there is some -- I feel a
7 little strange about today granting a five-year
8 lease to well meaning people who are doing
9 something that the community likes, it creates a
10 lot of revenue, but who are not in compliance
11 right now.
12 I don't know what kind of precedent or what
13 kind of signal that you send. No notice to the
14 other owners that they get any chance. My
15 goodness, I just don't think we want to set that
16 kind of precedent here to do that.
17 But yet we all recognize this is a do-good
18 project, we're going to approve it, we're going
19 to improve the -- we're going to approve the
20 five years when we dot the i's and cross the
21 t's, and do it in a proper way.
22 So it seems like to me that if we just move
23 with that, we could move forward.
24 MR. GREEN: Governor, the applicant just
25 represented to me that they could live with --
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1 even with condition 3 if -- if the Board adopted
2 a rule on special event leases that increased
3 lease fees during their five-year lease period,
4 that they would abide by the new rule provision
5 if it was passed.
6 And again, that prov-- those provisions
7 have to come back to you. It would be a
8 Trustees' rule.
9 MS. WETHERELL: The amendment -- the
10 amendment to the --
11 MR. GREEN: The special event rule.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Right. If we proceed with
13 rulemaking, it would come back to you for
14 approval anyway. So you have an opportunity to
15 address and change our recommendation on the
16 lease --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
18 MS. WETHERELL: -- fees. So --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- let me ask first,
20 Commissioner Nelson, are you ready to sort of
21 accept --
22 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Kirby's proposal of a
24 conditional five-year lease -- if you are, maybe
25 just get the question before us so --
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- we can start --
3 TREASURER NELSON: I'm ready. Because he
4 is including the third condition in there --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
6 TREASURER NELSON: -- which was to begin
7 rulemaking so that the DEP and the Trustees have
8 authority to charge fees for special events,
9 which vary from the current Trustee rule
10 provisions. Yes. And he is --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
12 TREASURER NELSON: -- he is indicating --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now, at least we've got
14 it structured so we can take some votes.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, could I
16 make a quick comment.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I continue to be
19 concerned about the fees, and you expressed a
20 similar concern.
21 If you -- if you look at the average fees
22 in that area, you know, it's in the 150 to $175
23 range per slip. And we're talking about $3,500
24 of the fee for the slip for this boat show,
25 which is a huge variance.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Little difference.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Quite a difference.
3 But on the basis of the fact that we are
4 going to go with a one-year lease, and as long
5 as it's clear that we need to really carefully
6 look at the fee that we are charging, which
7 I think is inordinately low in this particular
8 lease --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: So --
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yeah.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: But it would be -- what
12 you're saying is that would be a fee based on
13 what they're actually getting.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And it -- it needs
15 to be addressed in the future, if not in this
16 particular lease.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'm willing to
19 forego trying to get the gross percentage --
20 percentage from the gross on the basis of what
21 we talked about here with a one-year lease, and
22 reviewing the fee schedule. Because the fee
23 schedule is very much out of line.
24 TREASURER NELSON: And my motion would
25 allow --
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
2 TREASURER NELSON: -- that future
3 discussion --
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand.
5 TREASURER NELSON: -- in the future
6 rulemaking.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, is
8 it a one-year lease or a five-year lease? So it
9 gets it -- just so we get it on the record.
10 TREASURER NELSON: It's a one-year special
11 event lease.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But then the
14 five years conditioned upon satisfaction of
15 these other conditions.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Correct.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Which includes a
18 review of the fee schedule.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And also
20 notice to everybody --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Notice and so on.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: One-year with a
23 five-year conditional, subject to Items 1
24 through 4 in the Commissioner's motion.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Which basically means
2 that they're going to be in this process -- as
3 soon as this show's over, they're going to be in
4 this process again. They have nothing assured
5 that they will have a lease come next year.
6 Because these conditions have to be met first.
7 MS. WETHERELL: That's right. So it --
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. I just --
9 MS. WETHERELL: -- behooves the
10 Department --
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- want to make sure
12 everybody understands, and that -- that,
13 in fact, it could be 20 percent, it could be
14 whatever, whatever this Board sets in a policy
15 between now and next year at this same time.
16 MS. WETHERELL: So it behooves the
17 Department then, Secretary Mortham, to begin
18 immediately to adopt a rule for these special
19 events. It will come back before you so you
20 will have an opportunity to decide what that fee
21 will be for special events.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- anybody
25 representing the applicant have any input they'd
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1 like to --
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah. I
3 just have one question --
4 MS. WETHERELL: Yes. There were three --
5 there were three speakers for the applicants --
6 for the applic--
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I just want
8 to get this thing, if I can, Governor, clear,
9 because what I'm concerned about is that
10 somebody who does not have notice now, who will
11 be affected, who may be adversely affected, or
12 even somebody who was one of the eleven or so
13 that are affected now, if they suddenly decide,
14 wait a minute, I'm allowing these people to use
15 something that -- that I have a right to, if,
16 in fact, they have the opportunity to come
17 before us, are we making a motion today that may
18 very well adversely affect the rights of those
19 people?
20 Or can we, in essence, if we -- or any
21 Board that's up here, listens to the other
22 upland owners and come to the conclusion that
23 this particular -- this particular use is not in
24 the best interest of this particular owner, or
25 harms that particular owner, can we, in essence,
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1 deny it during years two, three, four, or five?
2 That's my concern.
3 I'm not saying -- I don't see any way that
4 we would. But if somebody does have a right out
5 there, I don't want to extinguish somebody
6 else's right.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Well, you know, in that --
8 excuse me?
9 MR. GREEN: There's a lease condition that
10 would allow the owners to terminate --
11 MS. WETHERELL: I think that Kirby
12 mentioned this a minute ago, that we had talked
13 about having a lease condition that would allow
14 us to terminate it if, you know, there was this
15 riparian ownership issue.
16 And that needs to be there in order to
17 protect the riparian owners' rights. And -- but
18 there is a lease condition.
19 And that is the reason for notice -- your
20 own point.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: The last
22 thing I want to do is to have them do
23 something -- let's just say, up here, and have
24 it challenged in court, and have no boat show at
25 all.
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1 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just have
3 somebody to have the rights, get the injunction
4 against this boat show, and I don't think
5 anybody wants that.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Exactly.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Are there
8 people that we have to hear for -- from before
9 we make this --
10 MS. WETHERELL: Well, I asked them:
11 Tim Meaner -- Meenan, Dan Taylor, and
12 Dane Graziano had asked to speak.
13 Just one then? Okay. Thank you.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. I think we're in a
15 pretty good posture here if we --
16 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Governor.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 MR. TAYLOR: I'm Dan Taylor, representing
19 Yachting Promotions. We're -- we're still not
20 quite sure -- it was our understanding that
21 Mr. Green had said that -- that the Agency
22 was -- was willing to go with a five-year
23 conditional.
24 We are willing to go along with the changes
25 that may come later that have to do with the
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1 lease amount. We understand the concerns
2 about -- about the value of that land, and we're
3 willing to go along with those changes as they
4 occur in the rules.
5 All we're asking is that we -- for now,
6 follow the rules that are already in place. As
7 those rules change to increase that amount,
8 we're certainly willing to go along with that.
9 We would like the five-year conditional
10 because of the planning process that goes
11 through -- you know, there are boats coming from
12 all over the world, and -- and to have that
13 five-year period that people believe that they
14 can count on is --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think --
16 MR. TAYLOR: -- very important.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think he's -- we're
18 trying to do that. And we're --
19 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- we're in a position
21 where we don't want to set a bad precedent, we
22 don't want to do something that a riparian owner
23 is -- loses his rights, and, of course, they've
24 got a right to litigate if they do that.
25 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: At the same time, I think
2 you can tell from here, everybody thinks the
3 boat show's good, nobody wants to -- to sink
4 it. We would like to see there be some longer
5 range, you know, process in doing that.
6 But we feel that we have to follow
7 certain --
8 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- procedures to do that.
10 MR. TAYLOR: And we absolutely --
11 absolutely understand the Attorney General's
12 concern. There is a provision in other leases
13 that have been issued in the past that deal with
14 the situation if a riparian right owner has a
15 changed circumstance, even though they've given
16 us the affidavit for the five years already,
17 there is a provision for that.
18 And so that's why we would like the
19 five-year conditional.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
21 All right.
22 Is there -- all right.
23 So many as favor the substitute as slightly
24 reformed will signify by saying aye.
25 THE CABINET: Aye.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
2 The subst--
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: No.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. The
5 substitute is adopted.
6 We thank you.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. Thank you.
8 And we temporarily passed Item 15. If we
9 can return to Item 15, Governor.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I move to rescind the
11 conceptual approval --
12 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- under Item 15.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Item 15 --
16 MS. WETHERELL: We did have --
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Metro Machine.
18 MS. WETHERELL: -- some -- we did have some
19 speakers is the reason we temporarily passed
20 that item a minute ago.
21 If we could hear briefly from John Conner,
22 Commissioner, City of Fernandina Beach;
23 Joan Cory; and John Glenn.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary, is there
25 anybody speaking against that motion?
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1 MS. WETHERELL: I don't believe that
2 anybody's speaking against it --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: These are all -- I'm
4 just curious. These are all in favor of the
5 motion, correct?
6 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. You might want to
7 make --
8 MR. CONNER: Thank you,
9 Secretary Wetherell.
10 First of all, I'd like to commend
11 Secretary Mortham for providing the leadership
12 on this issue. And just very briefly, I am
13 representing the City Commission of
14 Fernandina Beach, who has adopted a unanimous
15 position against the proposed Metro Machine
16 dry dock.
17 Last September, as you all know, there was
18 a conceptual approval granted for this project.
19 On July 24th, the Navy withdrew its RFP for the
20 project, which drastically changed the scope and
21 nature of the actual project.
22 We are here today to ask you to rescind
23 your conceptual approval, primarily because at
24 the time it was granted, it was granted because
25 it was in the name of national defense, it was
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1 serving a public purpose.
2 Today, since the Navy is no longer a part
3 of that picture, we feel that, in essence, you
4 have a private entity using a conceptual
5 approval that was granted for a public purpose
6 for private gain, and we -- we feel as a City
7 that that is not appropriate.
8 So we would support and ask for your
9 favorable positive consideration of the
10 recommendation from the staff of DEP.
11 Thank you very much.
12 MS. CORY: Good morning, Governor Chiles,
13 and Board of Trustees members. My name is
14 Joan Cory. And I'm speaking for Citizens
15 Against the Dry Dock.
16 The delegation -- I'd like to ask the
17 delegation to stand up, please.
18 Citizens Against the Dry Dock is a
19 3,000-member coalition representing retired Navy
20 personnel; Sierra Club members; individuals from
21 small business and real estate; from sport
22 fishing, and recreational boating.
23 We come from the island, and from areas of
24 Nassau County off the island, and also including
25 Jacksonville.
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1 This delegation is here today in support of
2 the DEP recommendation to rescind conceptual
3 approval of the Metro Machine project at
4 Fort Clinch.
5 Since conceptual approval was based on the
6 urgency of a Navy RFP, which has been now
7 canceled, it is our hope that the Board of
8 Trustees will vote to cancel the conceptual
9 approval so that future development of this site
10 may be compatible with the adjacent State park,
11 historic residential district, and the aquatic
12 preserve.
13 In closing, we would like to thank you all
14 for your thoughtful consideration of this issue.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
16 MR. GLENN: Good morning, Governor Chiles,
17 members of the Cabinet. My name is John Glenn.
18 I'm Chairman of the Florida Chapter Sierra
19 Club Aquatic Preserve Committee. It was formed
20 in response to action that y'all took last
21 September. It gave us a great deal of anxiety.
22 And I just wanted to say that by voting for
23 this motion to rescind, you will allay a great
24 deal of our fears all over the state. There's a
25 bunch of aquatic preserves that we thought with
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1 this conceptual approval in place, that none of
2 them were safe.
3 Thank you very much.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
5 MS. WETHERELL: That concludes the
6 speakers.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there a
8 motion?
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move --
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I moved it already.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
12 seconded already. That's right.
13 So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
14 THE CABINET: Aye.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
16 It's approved. It's rescinded.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you. That concludes
18 the Board of Trustees.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
20 We'll go back to the beginning of our
21 agenda now.
22 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
23 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded at
24 11:01 a.m.)
25 *
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1 (Resolutions were presented to the Cabinet
2 from 11:01 a.m. until 11:21 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Our next Cabinet meeting
4 will be November the 4th.
5 And now we'll go to the State Board of
6 Education.
7 DR. BEDFORD: Governor Chiles, members of
8 the State Board of Education, good morning.
9 Item 1, minutes of the meeting held
10 September 9th, 1997.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, the minutes are
15 approved.
16 DR. BEDFORD: Item 2, the Florida
17 Commission on Education Reform and
18 Accountability Annual Report. We have with us
19 in the audience today Senator
20 George Kirkpatrick, who will be giving a brief
21 presentation on this item.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, while the
23 Senator is approaching, if I might just say that
24 one of -- one of my staff that the
25 Accountability Commission has recently stolen,
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1 this is our last Cabinet meeting with her, so
2 I'd --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Heffley?
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yeah. Not a chance.
5 Kathy Mizereck has been working very
6 diligently as our Aide on all education issues,
7 as well as others. And now she's going to be
8 over with the Accountability Commission. I have
9 no doubt she's going to do a wonderful job.
10 Of course, now, Senator Kirkpatrick owes me
11 in a very major way. But I just want to say at
12 this last Cabinet meeting, that Kathy's been
13 absolutely wonderful for our office.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, Kathy.
15 SENATOR KIRKPATRICK: Those of you that
16 don't know Kathy, she's the one in the purple in
17 the front row here.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Senator.
19 SENATOR KIRKPATRICK: Governor, thank you
20 very much for letting me make this
21 presentation. I realize you all don't like to
22 have long, drawn out presentations, so I'll try
23 to adopt the Frank Brogan approach to
24 presentations.
25 Just kidding, Frank.
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1 I don't know if you all realize this, but
2 I've served on the Florida Accountability
3 Commission for -- almost ever since it was put
4 into being in 1991. It has been a tedious
5 service for the last several years, but
6 I believe that we've made a lot of progress.
7 And I come to you today as a stand-in for
8 Phil Lewis, our Chairperson. And you know it's
9 almost impossible to stand in for Phil Lewis, so
10 I'll just do the best that I can do.
11 I think that the Accountability Commission
12 has made a lot of progress over the years, from
13 sort of a dream and an idea and a hope, we've
14 moved forward to making some recommendations
15 that have actually made a difference in the
16 future of education.
17 I think the time -- the timing has made a
18 difference, and has helped us over some of those
19 hurdles that we probably wouldn't have been able
20 to get over in the past. And a lot of new
21 leadership has helped us out a great deal.
22 To just -- I'm going to -- all of you have
23 this report. I'm sure you won't ever take the
24 time to read it all. Hopefully you'll take the
25 time to read the six-page summary.
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1 But basically we've accomplished quite a
2 bit over the last couple of years. Number one,
3 I think, is the Florida Comprehensive Assessment
4 Test, which actually now is -- has been field
5 tested by the Department, it's in place.
6 I believe that we now will have an
7 instrument that we can go to the parents with a
8 lot of credibility to say, we know where your
9 children are in their relative ability
10 throughout the state of Florida.
11 We also have been able to develop the
12 Sunshine State Standards over a period of time.
13 You know, these were approved by the Cabinet
14 after a lot of work by a lot of people. And
15 they are now in the process of being
16 implemented.
17 We talk about the Sunshine State Standards
18 all the time in the Legislature now. We never
19 used to talk about those. As a matter of fact,
20 we never used to really have any standards.
21 There's been a lot of work over the years,
22 but I do want to acknowledge the fact that the
23 Commissioner of Education, Frank Brogan, really
24 kind of closed the deal.
25 He and Buddy MacKay, I remember, came into
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1 the Accountability Commission not too long ago,
2 several months, maybe almost a year ago I guess
3 now -- it's been --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Not quite.
5 SENATOR KIRKPATRICK: -- doesn't seem it's
6 that long. Yeah.
7 And sat down and said, well, nobody's going
8 home until we finally get an agreement on this.
9 We're moving from a conversation about it to an
10 implementation.
11 And from that point on, I think the
12 Legislature has taken up the challenge. And
13 even though it's very -- makes them very nervous
14 to have to apply some standards to everybody,
15 and I think these are fairly high standards,
16 it's going to make a big difference.
17 The other thing that I'm quite proud of is
18 the recommendations that the Commission made on
19 critically low performing schools. You know
20 that the Board of Education approved it in 1995,
21 the Department of Education established the
22 procedures for identifying these schools.
23 And, again, I'll say to the Commissioner, I
24 thought it took a lot of courage to actually
25 publish the list. We've had a lot of
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1 conversation about low performing schools and
2 everybody was very nervous, and we danced around
3 it, and we tried to do this and that.
4 But as politicians know, and we all qualify
5 for that, there's no better way to get our
6 attention than to actually run an article in the
7 newspaper or some editorial or something.
8 And once we publicly told the -- the people
9 of the state of Florida that there were
10 168 schools that just did not meet minimum
11 standards, everybody got nervous.
12 What we didn't tell them -- or what they
13 didn't really realize, that there were another
14 about 600 schools, if I'm not mistaken, that
15 were very close to that -- falling off of that
16 edge.
17 Well, it went from 168 to 70, and I think
18 it's down to somewhere close to 30 today, which
19 I think is a lot of progress. There are only 20
20 of those schools that have been on the list for
21 all three years.
22 So if you think about all of the schools
23 that we have in the state of Florida, we have at
24 least eliminated the majority of those that --
25 that are at the very bottom.
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1 I think now the question becomes, where do
2 we go from here? How do we move away from
3 district-wide averages, which really don't tell
4 you much about your kid; school-wide averages
5 which say about how good the school is doing,
6 but not how good the actual children within that
7 school are doing.
8 And we find some way to make sure that even
9 kids in those schools that are supposedly okay
10 and meet the minimum standards, how do we make
11 sure that they can succeed in their performance.
12 Another very exciting thing was the
13 implementation this year in the Legislature of
14 sending $10 per FTE to the school advisory
15 committees. This certainly was a new way to
16 distribute dollars in our education system.
17 I wrote a letter to every school district
18 after that bill passed and asked them to let us
19 know how they were going to distribute the
20 money. Unfortunately, we found that a number of
21 the school districts created these huge
22 barriers. They made the little school advisory
23 committee, which has no staff, they're just
24 parents, business people, and principals, and
25 teachers.
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1 They had to submit some huge budget, and it
2 had to go through two or three levels of
3 approval. And that's really not what we were
4 trying to accomplish.
5 What we were really trying to accomplish is
6 to say to the local school folks, the ones that
7 we're most anxious to have involved, the ones
8 that we're running ads on the radio today trying
9 to get more people to volunteer 4 hours in the
10 school, this is the -- sort of the focal point
11 of the environment of the parents.
12 It's been very difficult to get the
13 districts to recognize that we just need to give
14 these people some responsibility over some
15 money, because, as you know --
16 And you heard me say this yesterday,
17 Governor, at the Governor's Commission on
18 Education.
19 -- behavior follows the dollar in
20 education. And I think if we're ever going to
21 make school advisory committees important, we've
22 got to be involved in that.
23 Just very quickly, the 2.0 grade point
24 average is now the law in Florida. The college
25 ready diploma bill that I passed last year is
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1 now the law in Florida. The Superwaivers, which
2 is something that the Commissioner fought real
3 hard for, we finally approved that.
4 We've had six or eight, I guess, of the
5 Superwaivers that have been asked for, which
6 allows the school district virtually to
7 eliminate the majority of the rules -- other
8 than the State, local, health, safety, and civil
9 rights requirements -- maximum flexibility.
10 The increased reading and math standards.
11 Some performance incentive funding in the
12 dropout prevention programs. I encourage all of
13 you to have at least one of your staff people
14 review the study that was done in the Senate
15 Education Appropriations Committee on these
16 dropout prevention programs last year to show
17 you how much progress is not being made in these
18 dropout prevention programs, and how much money
19 we're putting into them. It's unbelievable.
20 It'll scare you to death.
21 Actually the kids in the dropout prevention
22 programs are doing worse than the kids that are
23 in the general population. So all of the money
24 that we're spending, we're not getting much
25 results.
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1 We had some successes in postsecondary
2 articulation. The Board of Regents, you know,
3 has established a standing committee now to deal
4 with K-12, which I think is important to
5 continue that relationship.
6 I think it's important for us to remember
7 that we've got to find a way to get better
8 results from the high schools if we're going to
9 expect good results in postsecondary education.
10 Three years ago, when I was Chair of the
11 Senate Higher Education Committee, we had
12 testimony before us that said that of the top
13 10 percent of the high school graduates in
14 Dade County -- the top 10 percent of the
15 high school graduates in Dade County that went
16 to -- on to community college, 45 percent of
17 those tested into one or more remedial courses.
18 Of the top 10 percent of that percentage
19 that just went on to postsecondary education
20 that applied to the community college,
21 45 percent of that top 10 percent tested into
22 one or more remedial courses.
23 If you think about how troubling that news
24 is, those are the best that we had, and a huge
25 percentage of them needed a lot of help when
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1 they got to college, we need to continue to work
2 on that.
3 We created a program called the Minority
4 Teacher Program, and -- in the Senate and the
5 House for the last couple of years, the
6 Governor's office has been very supportive in
7 trying to help us continue to get it funded. We
8 had some initial cooperation from the
9 Department of Labor.
10 I just want to tell you that the year
11 before we did this program, we had about
12 620 minority teachers graduate from our colleges
13 of education in Florida that went into teaching.
14 This program alone brought in 680 new
15 minority teachers above the benchmark that are
16 now in colleges of education. They're all
17 Florida community college transfers. And
18 there's about 600 on the waiting list.
19 So with one, small 3 million dollar
20 program, we were able to double the results of
21 our entire teacher education program. So it's
22 been very exciting.
23 And then finally, we've got a few
24 recommendations that I won't go through all
25 these. I'll ask you to take a look at.
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1 I think part of the problem that we have is
2 the communications between the District and the
3 school advisory committees. If we're going to
4 have school based management and school based
5 participation, we're going to have to find some
6 way to give these people better communication,
7 better training, and more opportunity to have an
8 influence over what is taking place.
9 We found that the majority of the school
10 districts, the schools, and the school advisory
11 committee reported that the most important thing
12 they could do in the high schools was to
13 implement programs that -- that targeted the
14 skills that were needed by business to make sure
15 that the kids had an opportunity to be employed.
16 That's basically what the report says. I
17 just wanted to close by making a couple of
18 comments.
19 I believe we're at a crossroads. There's a
20 lot of confusion about governance today in
21 education, not the least of which was the -- the
22 conversation that took place at the Governor's
23 Commission.
24 I want to tell you that I was the person
25 who voted against eliminating the elected
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1 Cabinet. I don't say that to make you feel
2 better. I just believe that the public ought to
3 have an opportunity to vote for as many of its
4 policymakers as possible. I was in the
5 minority, significant minority, in that group.
6 But as the State Board of Education, and in
7 cooperation and -- with the leadership of the
8 Education Commissioner in the state of Florida,
9 I believe that we're in -- at a vast crossroads,
10 particularly as it relates to accountability in
11 the school systems.
12 I said this yesterday at the Commission
13 meeting, I'll say it at every -- at every
14 opportunity I have, the public is looking to us
15 for some accountability in their school system.
16 They are not satisfied with the results, the
17 outcomes that they're getting from their school
18 system.
19 Simply pouring a huge amount of money into
20 the same system I don't believe is going to
21 change much about the way we do business.
22 As a matter of fact, I have a button here
23 that says: But we've always done it this way.
24 And there's a little red line through that.
25 I think this is the biggest single thing
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1 that we're trying to overcome in education
2 today.
3 The Accountability Commission can be a
4 strong tool if the Commissioner and the -- and
5 the State Board of Education will use it to
6 accomplish a number of these goals.
7 We've got a new Executive Director, we've
8 got strong leadership from the Commissioner,
9 we've got the public calling for accountability,
10 and we have the Legislature calling for program
11 budgets in a performance budgeting. And all of
12 you all in your agency hats have had to deal
13 with that at some level or another.
14 Education is one of those places where
15 we're making some progress. The community
16 college system has done some magnificent things
17 in -- in performance based incentive driven
18 funding.
19 And last year, the Legislature passed a
20 very significant piece of legislation called
21 Senate Bill 1688 that took 700 million dollars
22 out of the FEFP and out of the program fund, and
23 put it into a level playing field, competitive
24 grant program that allowed all of our
25 infrastructure to come forward and compete for
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1 these dollars to provide the work force training
2 in the state of Florida.
3 We argued and screamed and carried on all
4 summer long. But we have reached a consensus.
5 There are a few outliers that don't want to see
6 any change, and I'm sure you'll hear from them.
7 But we have basically reached a consensus,
8 and done a magnificent amount of work in
9 shortening all the program links, having uniform
10 agreements on the -- on the certificates and the
11 completion points and all these other things
12 that I know you all don't want to have to listen
13 to. But we have made a lot of progress.
14 I think that we need now to move forward to
15 create the maximum amount of flexibility at the
16 local level, and the strongest amount of
17 incentive driven funding that we can possibly
18 put into the school budgets throughout the
19 system.
20 We are excited to be a part of the program,
21 and we look forward to continuing to work with
22 you.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: George --
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I just want to say,
2 we thank you very much for that report. I hope
3 you'll express our appreciation to every member
4 of the Commission -- Accountability Commission.
5 I think you've done an outstanding job.
6 And I look and see kind of where we were in 1991
7 in regard to these things, and then see the
8 progress that we've made, the report card,
9 grading the schools, Sunshine State Standards,
10 which I think we can equate with any state in
11 the nation in regard to high standards, all of
12 those things. And I think the Commission's done
13 an outstanding job.
14 Having said that, I think we've lit sort of
15 a fuse on a bomb that none of us know exactly
16 what's going to happen with that bomb.
17 When those standards begin to cut, there
18 will be a lot of people that will be ready to
19 cut and run and reduce the standards because
20 they're going to say, what do you mean,
21 you know, we've got -- you're holding my kid
22 back. Or you're not going to give a diploma, or
23 our school is an abject failure, or any of these
24 things.
25 So I think what we've done through the
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1 good, strong work of the Commission, we've put a
2 gun at our heads, so to speak. And now the
3 question is: Are we going to give the kind of
4 support that -- on all of the areas of
5 readiness, governance, teacher training,
6 construction funds, all of those things -- that
7 are going to be necessary to bring our -- our
8 schools up to world state standards, and
9 continuing to look for the ways of involving
10 parents and teachers, giving more local control,
11 giving incentive based funding, all of those
12 tools.
13 But I would say that right now, we're
14 tiptoeing in that area, while those standards
15 are -- that clock is ticking, and we'd better
16 get moving, because if we haven't gone further
17 than we have -- considerably further than we are
18 now, when the bomb goes off, there will be a lot
19 of people that will run for shelters and want to
20 do something to recon-- the standards that we
21 have.
22 I -- I don't know the -- I think the
23 Commission has really done its task, so to
24 speak. I hope you will continue to keep the
25 light on that; and keep, you know, kind of
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1 pushing with other programs so that we move
2 forward, the administration and the Legislature,
3 so to speak, hand in glove, with the tools --
4 all of the tools that are going to be necessary
5 to allow us to meet those standards.
6 SENATOR KIRKPATRICK: I just want to remind
7 everybody, what you're saying is exactly true,
8 and this moment of truth is coming faster than
9 people realize.
10 As you know, I've spent a lot of time
11 working on at-risk schools, and I've spent a lot
12 of time working on work force. And those are
13 the two ends of the continuum, the early
14 childhood, the at-risk schools, the kindergarten
15 through the 3rd grade, making sure those kids
16 are prepared, and then seeing what it takes to
17 make sure that they can get placed in some sort
18 of job at the end of their education.
19 I can tell you without reservation that you
20 do minority kids and at-risk kids no favor by
21 having some sort of an artificially low
22 standard, because there are no artificially low
23 standards once they leave the schoolhouse.
24 There are very tough standards.
25 The day Buddy MacKay and Frank Brogan and I
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1 had the CEOs show up down in Orlando, or
2 somewhere, and they walked in, and the CEO of
3 the insurance company in Jacksonville said,
4 60 percent of the high school graduates that
5 show up at our company, we eliminate them from
6 the entry level jobs because they can't read or
7 compute or write at a level that we can hire
8 them at the entry level.
9 I mean, it's a very difficult question.
10 And I for one -- I've got three years --
11 you know, I'm here for the whole ride. We're
12 not going to shy away from it. You're going to
13 get a lot of pressure, but I hope you don't
14 yield to it.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I just want
16 to thank Senator Kirkpatrick as well, and all
17 the people who serve on that Commission. We're
18 excited to have Kathy coming on board and
19 continue the direction.
20 It's great to see so much of what's been
21 discussed begin to come to fruition. And you're
22 right, you're -- I think Jack Crutchfield is
23 fond of saying, don't flinch.
24 And I think that's where we are when it
25 comes to Senator Kirkpatrick's crossroads is
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1 that we're getting some things accomplished, and
2 we need to be careful that as a state, if we
3 really believe we're moving in the right
4 direction, that when it comes, and, oh, it will,
5 that we don't flinch.
6 And we sure thank you, and others like you,
7 Senator, for your leadership and taking on the
8 tough issues that go along with making the
9 changes we have to.
10 Thanks, Governor.
11 SENATOR KIRKPATRICK: Thank you. I
12 appreciate the opportunity --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I would move
14 Item 2, Governor.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and --
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 DR. BEDFORD: Item 3, report on the high
20 priority school locations for use in the
21 implementation of the teacher loan forgiveness
22 program.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Been moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 DR. BEDFORD: Item 4, information systems
3 of Florida contract for the GED client server.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. Without objection,
7 it's approved.
8 Moved and seconded.
9 DR. BEDFORD: Item 5, a status report on
10 critically low performing schools.
11 Senator Kirkpatrick was just addressing that
12 issue.
13 We have with us, representing the DOE,
14 Gerry Richardson and Andrea Willett. They will
15 make a short presentation at this time.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: How long will that take?
17 DR. BEDFORD: About 7 minutes.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Before we do that then,
19 let me -- if I might interrupt here just a
20 minute.
21 We're having walk in the chamber now a
22 number of very special guests. And I'd like to
23 call them forward, if they will. If they'd come
24 up and stand right sort of up in front.
25 And tell you that -- that we have some
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1 37 students that we've asked to come up.
2 They're from all over the state. They represent
3 the high schools and middle schools from all
4 across the state of Florida.
5 They're here spending a day with us
6 reviewing ads on the basis of -- antismoking ads
7 that have been adopted in -- and used in
8 Michigan, in California, and several other
9 states.
10 What we decided, in using some of our
11 antismoking money that we got out of the
12 lawsuit, we want to do that as effectively as we
13 can. And we've decided that sort of as adults,
14 we can't make those decisions as to what is
15 really going to affect students.
16 So we asked the respective school boards to
17 pick a couple of students out of their schools.
18 And from each one of the districts, we have
19 several students that are up here. And they are
20 spending the day reviewing the ads that we
21 have.
22 They will grade them by the end of the day,
23 and we will use that proposition to sort of see
24 what are the things that we think will work
25 effectively.
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1 We intend to continue to use student advice
2 as we go through the campaign. We'll be calling
3 a youth congress sometime right after the first
4 of the year, and we'll have an even larger
5 number -- a much larger number of students that
6 come up here.
7 But many of these young people have been on
8 the road for a good while this morning, or
9 yesterday, and they're working all day.
10 And I wanted to give them a chance to meet
11 all of the members of the Cabinet.
12 Commissioner Brogan has had a chance to address
13 them today, as has General Butterworth. But
14 these are some of our brightest and finest that
15 are going to be leading our fight.
16 And I wanted to give them a chance to meet
17 all of us, and let us give them a big hand.
18 (Applause.)
19 (A recess was had while photographs were
20 taken with the Cabinet members.)
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
22 DR. BEDFORD: We're on Item 5, and the
23 status report on critically low performing
24 schools. Gerry Richardson will start, and
25 Andrea Willett will then take over.
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1 Gerry?
2 MR. RICHARDSON: Governor Chiles,
3 distinguished members of the State Board, ladies
4 and gentlemen, this is the third
5 State Accountability Report that identifies low
6 performing schools.
7 It marks the beginning of the third full
8 year of special assistance for critically low
9 performing schools. Schools that remain
10 critically low after the next round of
11 identification are the ones that are required to
12 report to you, the State Board of Education.
13 So that will happen after the next report.
14 The School Accountability Report provides
15 information not only for low performing schools,
16 of course, but for all regular schools. And
17 that covers some 2263 elementary, middle, and
18 high schools, the vast majority of -- of regular
19 schools. It does not cover, say, FTE reporting
20 units, or exceptional student centers, or those
21 kinds of schools.
22 I'd like to quickly review the criteria
23 which are currently used to identify critically
24 low performing schools. Different criteria are
25 used for elementary versus middle and
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1 high school.
2 It takes two consecutive years of
3 performing below these minimum criteria for a
4 school to be identified as critically low.
5 That's six school level data points below
6 minimum State criteria.
7 Recently we were pleased to announce that
8 we had a 58 percent reduction from last year's
9 number of critically low schools. But if you
10 were to look back over the three-year profile,
11 we have had an 81 percent total reduction from
12 the 158 schools that were initially identified,
13 down to 30 schools that are on the list this
14 year.
15 Those 30 schools are composed of 20 who are
16 in their third year. And these are the ones
17 that we are watching carefully. There are ten
18 new schools on the list.
19 What this means is that of the
20 158 originally identified, 128 have come off the
21 list due to their hard work.
22 At the same time that the number of
23 critically low schools have been drastically
24 reduced, we're pleased to report that the number
25 of schools with no low scores at all, none that
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1 fall below the minimum criteria, have continued
2 to increase over the three-year period. We
3 started with a little over 600. Now there are
4 well over 1100 schools.
5 That's illustrating, it's not just the
6 critically low schools that have responded to
7 this initiative, but the vast majority of
8 schools, many of which are able to report they
9 have no low scores at all.
10 Some highlights.
11 And, Governor, you mentioned the fact that
12 increased standards will likely have an impact
13 on the identification. And that is certainly
14 true with the Florida Comprehensive Assessment
15 Test. We're not prepared right now to talk
16 about what -- what changes there may be.
17 But for this setting, the criteria have
18 remained constant for the three years. And
19 that's an important point.
20 The report format itself has been revised
21 to provide more information to schools for
22 planning, for their school improvement efforts.
23 And here are some of the information pieces that
24 have been added.
25 One of the things that we made sure to do
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1 this time was to report for each district
2 according to the standardized tests they used.
3 For example, here in Leon County, they used the
4 C-A-T; whereas in Dade County, they might use
5 the Stanford. We made sure that report format
6 reflects that.
7 In closing, on the highlights of the report
8 itself, one of the things we have been able to
9 do is to improve the procedure by which we
10 estimate the percent tested. Now we are able to
11 account for exempted LEP students there in the
12 formulation.
13 We are pleased to report that right now, we
14 estimated that about 97 percent of elementary,
15 95 of middle, and almost 90 percent of
16 high school students are participating in these
17 statewide assessments.
18 I'd like to now turn it over to my
19 colleague, Andrea Willett, to talk about the
20 assistance that they've received.
21 MS. WILLETT: The big question again is how
22 did they do it. And as we're talking about
23 schools, please remember that the children you
24 saw in front -- in front of you are really what
25 we're talking about. It's not about buildings,
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1 it's about the children inside of them.
2 So it was a real pleasure to yield to the
3 children as we started this process.
4 Schools looked at curriculum, they looked
5 at instruction, and they looked at parental and
6 family involvement as the three major ways that
7 they accomplished changes in what they were
8 doing for this past school year.
9 The emphasis and focus in curriculum has
10 shifted as a result of the Sunshine State
11 Standards, and of the new accountability system,
12 into a very focused effort for students and
13 teachers. There is an integration of subject
14 matter. We do not -- don't often find people
15 saying, please put your library books away so
16 it's -- because it's now time for reading.
17 We do find people saying, let's use your
18 library books for reading, let's use your social
19 studies books for reading. And that is on the
20 increase.
21 The emphasis has been on instruction, and
22 instruction is changing. The delivery of
23 instruction is changing, more time is being
24 added. These schools have used some of their
25 additional dollars in Title I and other sources
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1 to add more time to the school day for the
2 children.
3 And finally, the parental involvement has
4 increased dramatically. Some of the schools
5 have received Golden Apple Awards for the
6 volunteer time that they did not have before.
7 They have had an increase in the community
8 involvement with the schools, both resources,
9 time, effort, and energy.
10 And businesses report to us that they now
11 have a focus of the strategies, whereas before,
12 it was simply a please buy an ad for the
13 football program, and, you know, don't bother
14 us.
15 And now they're actually working with
16 children, as well as certainly supporting the
17 football program, whether or not because the
18 State was opposed to that.
19 Successful strategies that are currently
20 being used by the schools, they're attending to
21 assessments, and they are very conscious of the
22 change that is coming in assessment. They are
23 preparing for it.
24 Sunshine State Standards have been infused
25 into the curriculum, they continue to be infused
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1 into the curriculum, and they are continuing to
2 look at how those standards can be assessed.
3 More cooperative learning students are
4 being put into teams, much as they are in the
5 business world, allowing projects to be the
6 basis for what they're talking about. Hands-on
7 instruction, math manipulatives are used
8 frequently in classrooms, both at the elementary
9 and secondary level.
10 They have locked out times and used
11 thematic instruction, as well as new
12 instructional programs. Although the State is
13 certainly not recommending one over the other,
14 schools are finding their own programs that work
15 for them.
16 They have not done this in isolation, and
17 they have not done it alone. We want to give a
18 lot of credit to the districts. There are some
19 problems certainly in a statewide system this
20 size, but districts have been very supportive.
21 They've put in response teams and offered direct
22 assistance. They have certainly encouraged and
23 allowed the community involvement, and supported
24 it.
25 They have provided parenting workshops on a
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1 district-wide or regional basis. They have
2 invested enormous amounts of time, energy, and
3 efforts into staff development, supporting
4 schools in that effort, and they believe.
5 And what we're reporting -- getting reports
6 from them is that they need even more, and will
7 continue to focus on that, because this is not
8 an easy thing to do.
9 The type of change that we're talking about
10 is a standards driven change, it is not one that
11 comes easily or naturally to people.
12 The State has been a partner in this
13 process. The State, as you know, has been
14 divided into five reporting regions for
15 education. We've also used those regions as a
16 technical assistance region.
17 We have added area centers for educational
18 enhancement to support much of the training that
19 is required for Sunshine State Standards, as
20 well as the training that will be required for
21 the new Comprehensive Assessment Test.
22 We have other regional service providers in
23 a variety of ways throughout the state that
24 schools access, and we allow them and encourage
25 them and assist them in accessing those
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1 additional resources.
2 Let me make sure that we've really got a
3 handle on what we're talking about as far as
4 numbers. We have gone from fifteen schools in
5 the panhandle area to one school that is still
6 remaining in the status of critically low
7 performance.
8 In Region II, which is the Crown, Duval
9 area -- or excuse me -- Crest area, from
10 nineteen schools to three schools.
11 In Region III, which is on the -- along the
12 beach side of the ocean, we have fifteen schools
13 to five schools.
14 Region IV is the -- the Gulf side:
15 Nineteen schools to two schools.
16 And in Region V, south Florida, with the
17 greatest population, we have gone from
18 eighty-nine schools to nineteen schools.
19 So this year we will be more --
20 concentrating efforts on 30 schools. Of those,
21 again, only 20 are in their third year of
22 identification. They will be receiving
23 additional assistance. And we've gone from
24 eighteen districts to only eight districts with
25 schools in this status.
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1 So in closing, let me just say to you that
2 the restructuring plan that you have approved
3 and supported is, in fact, working. It seems to
4 be working for all students. There are not
5 children being left out of the process.
6 You have a copy of a book that is getting
7 ready to go out to the public on the report of
8 the schools. And these would be the 70 schools
9 that were on the list last year. And it would
10 include those 20 schools that are still on the
11 list.
12 And at the end of next year, we'll be
13 offering you a third report on critically low
14 schools.
15 Thank you very much.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, Governor, I
17 would like to echo something that
18 Senator Kirkpatrick said earlier today, that
19 this process has taken courage on everybody's
20 part, but especially the courage of the people
21 at home to make the kinds of changes in these
22 schools necessary to see children reading,
23 writing, and calculating mathematically at
24 higher levels.
25 He said that it took courage to identify,
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1 but I think that that was only the first step.
2 As you heard from members of staff, there's far
3 more than identification. It's a partnership
4 being formed out there.
5 Every step of the way has been chronicled.
6 You have part of that in your -- your packet
7 today. Because it's important we not just see
8 them achieve at higher levels, but we find out
9 how they did it, so we can see schools all over
10 the state of Florida replicate those sorts of
11 successful activities.
12 I think there were two pieces of data that
13 struck me most, certainly three. One was the
14 fact that we've had a significant decrease again
15 overall.
16 But beyond that, two others: One is the
17 percent tested has increased. Now,
18 traditionally in education, we know that when
19 you test more students, results typically go
20 down. And yet we're seeing a significantly
21 higher population of students being tested in
22 those grades, and that's important. We want to
23 see as few students excluded from the
24 accountability process as possible.
25 And two is the fact that there was a
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1 significant increase in the numbers of schools
2 statewide that show no critically low performing
3 categories. The idea here is that we're not
4 just effectuating change in the critically low
5 performing schools, but also all schools are
6 beginning to gauge where they are; and more
7 importantly, where they could be and should be.
8 And as we phase into what the Governor
9 talked about earlier, which is the new F-CAT,
10 the new standards, I think we've got a good
11 three-year running start statewide at having
12 people set their standards at a higher level,
13 get used to the new standards, used to the new
14 test.
15 But most importantly, used to understanding
16 that children will largely give you what you
17 expect if you expect the best.
18 And I'm very proud of the system and its
19 ability to recover and make the changes in those
20 schools necessary. Bottom line here is children
21 are reading, writing, and calculating
22 mathematically in those schools at higher levels
23 than before, and that is the name of the game.
24 So we're proud of everyone, and we thank
25 the Department for their partnership in this
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1 process. It will be ongoing.
2 And thank you, as always, the members of
3 the State Board for the courage that you've
4 shown in helping this program to come --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir. It was
6 very, very heartening to see the way those
7 numbers have come down, and to know now that as
8 we get the problem smaller, we can give the kind
9 of attention that you need to those existing
10 schools.
11 Great work. We thank you for that.
12 DR. BEDFORD: That item was for information
13 only and needed no approval.
14 Item 6, I would like to request withdrawal.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move withdrawal.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's withdrawn.
19 DR. BEDFORD: Item 7, Rule 6A-4.003, an
20 amendment to Degrees, Programs, and Credits. I
21 want to address this one just a second.
22 The purpose of this amendment was to
23 broaden the definition of standard institutions,
24 would allow the newly created university in the
25 State University System accreditation status for
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1 the first two years of operation while it is
2 gaining full regional accreditation.
3 In our -- after we had published the rule,
4 we received a letter from the Joint
5 Administrative Procedures Committee indicating
6 that they may have a problem with the rule.
7 We responded to them through
8 Wayne Pierson's office on October 16th. And
9 this morning we received a letter from them in
10 which they did inform us that by proceeding with
11 this rule, we can expect that they would file an
12 objection.
13 They are concerned as to whether we have
14 rulemaking authority in this area. We have
15 studied it again and believe we do. And we also
16 believe it's necessary.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I want to
18 make sure everyone understands that.
19 Since this is not obviously an accredited
20 institution at this point, since it is brand new
21 and will take about two years to go through the
22 accreditation process for awarding full credit,
23 we find ourself in a position of wanting to
24 grant that authority to Florida Gulf Coast
25 University during its initial two years prior to
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1 the accreditation process.
2 That appears to run afoul of what JAPC
3 thinks we have the authority to do; but it does
4 beg the question, what's the alternative? And
5 if the alternative is not granting credit to any
6 student who attends Florida Gulf Coast
7 University during the first two years, I suggest
8 we remain on the high road on this one and pass
9 the rule.
10 If JAPC in this process has a better
11 recommendation that will still get us where we
12 need to go, we're wide open to that.
13 But at this point, we think it's critical
14 that we pass this rule and provide that
15 authority to -- through the State Board to
16 Florida Gulf Coast University for its first two
17 years.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 DR. BEDFORD: Item 8, amendment, Assessment
24 of Student Attainment of College Level
25 Communication and Computation Skills.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 DR. BEDFORD: Item 9, Rule 6A-10.040,
6 amendment, Basic Skills Requirements for
7 Postsecondary Adult Vocational Education.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 DR. BEDFORD: Item 10, appointment to the
13 Palm Beach Community College District Board of
14 Trustees of Elaine J. James to a term expiring
15 May 31st, 1999.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 DR. BEDFORD: Item 11, appointment to the
21 Central Florida Community College District Board
22 of Trustees of Whit M. Palmer, Jr.; expiration
23 date, May 31st, 1999.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval,
25 Governor.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, that's approved.
4 DR. BEDFORD: That concludes our agenda.
5 Thank you.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
7 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
8 concluded.)
9 *
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Florida Department of Law
2 Enforcement.
3 MR. MOORE: Governor, Item 1 are the
4 minutes of the September 9, '97, Cabinet
5 meeting.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, minutes are approved.
11 MR. MOORE: Item 2 is the State of Florida
12 Auditor General's report for the Department for
13 calendar year 1996.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. MOORE: Governor, Item 3 is the
19 Department's Legislative Budget Request for
20 1998-99 and the two specific legislative
21 proposals requesting authority to transmit both
22 to the Legislature.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, that's approved.
2 MR. MOORE: Thank you, Governor.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
4 (The Florida Department of Law Enforcement
5 Agenda was concluded.)
6 *
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
2 MR. FUCHS: Item 1 is approval of the
3 minutes of the September 25th, 1997, meeting.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is a request for
9 approval of and authority to file with the
10 Secretary of State under Chapter 120 proposed
11 amendments to Rule Chapter 12B-8, Florida
12 Administrative Code, having to do with insurance
13 premium taxes, fees, and surcharges.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
15 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. It's been
17 moved.
18 TREASURER NELSON: -- I would speak in
19 opposition to the motion. I want to request
20 this item be deferred until the next Cabinet
21 meeting.
22 Based on new information that our office
23 has received over the last couple of days, we
24 would like to have some additional time to
25 further investigate the effect that these
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1 proposed amendments would have on workers'
2 compensation rates.
3 Last week, for example, it was the second
4 year in a row that I ordered a reduction in
5 workers' compensation rates. And we have
6 stabilized the market that but yet six years ago
7 was wildly gyrating, and had 30 percent
8 increases each year.
9 And we have stabilized that market, and
10 last week I ordered a reduction of 3.2 percent
11 in workers' compensation premiums for 1998.
12 And what I'd like to do is have the
13 opportunity to work with the
14 Department of Revenue and the affected parties
15 to come up with a no new tax solution.
16 Right now this issue -- there is an appeal
17 having been filed by the industry that has
18 raised new issues. The Department of Revenue
19 has provided new information in a letter that I
20 received last Friday, including a state by state
21 comparison, which I want time to review. And I
22 want to compile this new information so that we
23 can come up with a no new tax solution.
24 That is my concern, and how it would have
25 the effect on workers' compensation rates in
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1 Florida.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'd be
3 happy to withdraw my motion and change that to a
4 motion to defer.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I'll second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. It's been
7 moved and seconded to defer.
8 Without objection, it's deferred.
9 MR. FUCHS: Item 3 is request approval of
10 and authority to file with the Secretary of
11 State proposed amendments to Rule Chapter 12A-1,
12 12A-3, 12A-8, 12A-9, and 12A-10.
13 This has to do with transient rental rules,
14 conforming those rules across local governments
15 throughout the state.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. FUCHS: Item 4 is a request for
21 approval in concept of the Department's proposed
22 legislative package to submit -- to be submitted
23 to the 1988 -- excuse me -- 1998 Legislature.
24 And I would ask that if you pass this, that
25 we accept number 24 in -- in our package dealing
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1 with unclaimed property offset against child
2 support obligation.
3 General Milligan's staff is working with
4 our staff, and we think we can accomplish this
5 cooperatively without statutory change.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I ask
7 just on two of those issues, Larry, number 2,
8 which is the Executive Director's authority on
9 the $100,000 requesting that that ceiling be
10 raised to $250,000 without coming to the
11 Cabinet.
12 Having not seen any of these in my
13 three years on the Cabinet begs the question,
14 if -- if we're not getting them at $100,000 to
15 the Cabinet level, why would we want to raise it
16 to $250,000?
17 MR. FUCHS: Commissioner, I believe that's
18 Item 3.
19 The problem has to do with how many cases
20 end up in litigation. With the limited
21 authority on the Executive Director's part, and
22 because most parties don't want to bring
23 something to the Cabinet's attention when it's
24 a -- either an esoteric, or a legal issue, we
25 end up with litigation being filed, because we
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1 have virtually unlimited authority once it goes
2 into court.
3 By raising this threshold, we think we'll
4 save the State and the taxpayers a lot of money
5 bringing cases into court that don't necessarily
6 have to.
7 I believe the $100,000 limit is 20 years
8 old?
9 MS. BLOUNT: 1984.
10 MR. FUCHS: Excuse me. 1984 I'm advised by
11 staff.
12 So we're just -- we're really kind of --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But you --
14 MR. FUCHS: -- accepting any --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- don't think it
16 will present any hardship to the -- to the
17 affected party --
18 MR. FUCHS: I think it'd be the opposite,
19 Commissioner, that it'll actually represent a
20 cost saving. And the litigation and hearing
21 procedures, as well as our informal dispute
22 resolution process are always available.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay. And one other,
24 Governor, if you'll indulge me.
25 I think it's item -- I think it's 11. But
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1 it has to do -- I'm not sure if I'm numbered the
2 same way your sheet is.
3 But it has to do with the notice release to
4 dealers, and the DOR would like to see all rate
5 changes occur only at the beginning of the tax
6 year, January 1?
7 You with me on that one?
8 MR. FUCHS: I'm familiar with the -- with
9 the issue, Commissioner. I don't --
10 MS. BLOUNT: It's number 20.
11 MR. FUCHS: I'm sorry. It's number 20 on
12 the -- on the list.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I was just
14 wondering what impact that would have on the
15 educational funding stream or the educational
16 impact, if -- if at all.
17 In other words, will the school district
18 see an effect based on that recommendation?
19 MR. FUCHS: I don't think so. And I'm
20 giving you a common sense answer, sir. Because
21 the period would be the same even though we
22 shifted the starting date, the ending date would
23 shift accordingly.
24 The complexity was recently pointed out in
25 the case of Hillsborough County where we
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1 noted -- noticed tens of thousands of
2 businesses, that they had changed their -- their
3 discretionary tax, and still some of them didn't
4 get the message. And we began to see newspaper
5 articles and complaints to the Commission that
6 stores were still charging 7 percent when they
7 should only be charging six-and-a-half, or
8 whatever the exact rate was.
9 If we can move this to an annual event
10 only, it can change at the same time our coupon
11 books and instructions go out to businesses as
12 to the amount they should be collecting and
13 remitting.
14 And, again, make it easier for taxpayers
15 without, I believe, having a fiscal impact on
16 either -- or any of the local taxing
17 authorities.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Bottom line is you
19 don't see a negative impact as far as the
20 67 school districts are concerned.
21 MR. FUCHS: I do not. And if I'm
22 incorrect, I will certainly correct that before
23 the legislation is passed.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, Governor.
25 And with that, I'll move approval.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll second
2 the item. I just --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- have
5 one --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded?
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- question.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I've just
10 got one question real quickly.
11 Mr. Fuchs, I didn't quite understand. In
12 your responses to Commissioner Brogan, you were
13 saying that you have authority to compromise a
14 tax up to an amount of $100,000 if it doesn't go
15 to court, but once a court case is filed, you
16 have unlimited authority, is that what you're
17 saying?
18 MR. FUCHS: That is -- that is correct.
19 I mean, I -- it's actually in consultation
20 with -- and the authority -- and with the
21 authority of your staff, General, but, yes.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I know. But
23 I kind of think that we should maybe notify more
24 people of that. I thought that you notified
25 everybody.
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1 It seems like you should have no more
2 authority -- you should have no more authority
3 once you go to court than you do outside of
4 court.
5 And I would think that if we're
6 compromising a -- a tax of any amount, perhaps
7 the Comptroller and the Treasurer maybe should
8 be notified of -- or somebody should -- more
9 should be notified of this.
10 MR. FUCHS: I believe we report that in the
11 quarterly report that goes -- goes to everyone.
12 And actually what we're doing there, General, is
13 we're expanding the reasons for compromise.
14 When it comes to me, I'm -- I'm bound with
15 a -- with great flexibility under penalty, but
16 very little flexibility under tax or interest.
17 A compromise there is only when there's doubt as
18 to liability and doubt as to collectability,
19 which has been strictly construed by the -- by
20 the courts.
21 When we get into litigation, we also have
22 potential the hazards of litigation, the costs
23 of litigation to --
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, I --
25 MR. FUCHS: -- both parties.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: --
2 understand that. I just don't want anybody out
3 there who's litigating against us, or any
4 business out there, doesn't want to pay their
5 taxes, to think they have a better chance once
6 they file a lawsuit because they have as much
7 chance in court of having you compromise it,
8 than to have it come to the Cabinet.
9 So I'd rather -- I see your reasoning
10 here. It's --
11 MR. FUCHS: But we -- I guess I've strayed
12 from the answer to the question, which is, we do
13 report quarterly, and -- and name the parties
14 and the amounts.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And no one's
16 ever questioned any of that.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
18 seconded.
19 Further discuss--
20 Without objection, it's --
21 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
23 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
24 concluded.)
25 *
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
2 Administration Commission.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
4 approval of the minutes for the meeting held
5 September 25th, 1997.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, it's
10 approved -- minutes are approved.
11 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, recommend
12 approval of Items A., B., and C. for the Justice
13 Administrative Commission.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, they're approved.
18 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend
19 approval of the transfer of general revenue
20 appropriations for the Department of
21 Military Affairs.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
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1 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 4, recommend
2 approval of the transfer of general revenue
3 appropriations for the Department of
4 Elder Affairs.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 5 is request
10 authorization to enter a draft final order.
11 This is with respect to affairs down in
12 Palm Beach and Jupiter. There's some folks here
13 who can talk to you if you have any questions.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any questions?
15 Is there a motion?
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I move.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 6 is request
21 approval to publish the notices of proposed rule
22 repeal in the Florida Administrative Weekly, and
23 approval of the amended statement of agency
24 organization and operation.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, it's approved.
4 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 7 is authorize
5 the Secretary to begin the rule amendment
6 process for Rules 28-103.1005 and 28-106.302 of
7 the Florida Administrative Code; and take action
8 on Rule 28-110.005, the FAC; request deferral of
9 consideration of other amendments to uniform
10 rules required due to 1997 legislative action to
11 the November 4th, 1997, Commission meeting.
12 That's sufficiently complicated that maybe
13 we should have someone talk to you. And
14 Mr. Bill Williams is here to tell you about
15 that, Governor.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Governor Chiles, members of
18 the Cabinet, I appreciate the opportunity to
19 speak to you about the uniform rules today.
20 The uniforms rules, which were approved by
21 the Governor and Cabinet, and filed with the
22 Secretary of State's office back in April, are
23 the result of a four-year process involving
24 working -- a working group comprised largely of
25 members of the Administrative Law Section of the
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1 Florida Bar working with the Governor's office
2 and the General Counsel offices from various
3 State agencies, to completely revamp the way the
4 rules govern the proceedings before all State
5 agencies.
6 The purpose of the uniform rules is to make
7 uniform the procedures among all agencies for
8 the adoption of rules, and for the resolution of
9 disputes.
10 In this process, we've had the opportunity
11 to take input from various groups who are
12 interested in this process, who've also been
13 involved in drafting, and in the -- and the
14 participation and workshops.
15 We've met on many occasions with staff from
16 JAPC, and have, in many instances, included
17 their suggestions in the uniform rules that were
18 approved for adoption back in April.
19 Subsequent to that time, however, JAPC
20 voted three objections to three separate rule
21 provisions in the uniform rules.
22 Our section of the -- the Administrative
23 Law Section of the Florida Bar, in conjunction
24 with the staff of the Administration Commission,
25 have agreed with JAPC staff to make amendments
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1 to two of those rules.
2 However, there is one rule in which we've
3 been unable to agree with JAPC staff, and feel
4 that the Governor and Cabinet have full
5 statutory authority to adopt. And the entire
6 dispute resolves itself into three subsections
7 of the bonding requirement in -- for bid
8 protests.
9 Specifically, Subsection (2) of 110.005
10 provides a format -- a format for a bond. When
11 a bid protest is filed, the first thing that has
12 to happen is the agency has to indicate what
13 action they propose to take.
14 Within 72 hours of that posting, someone
15 who's dissatisfied with that intended decision
16 has to file what's called a notice of protest.
17 And then within 10 days of that, a formal
18 written protest, which amounts to a petition
19 that starts a formal administrative process,
20 must be filed.
21 In many instances, there are varying
22 bonding requirements under the Florida Statutes.
23 But all of those statutory bonding
24 requirements require the bond to be either filed
25 at the time the notice of protest is filed, or
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1 at the time the formal written protest is filed.
2 This is such an Archean area, that we
3 thought in the drafting process that it would be
4 good public policy to at least put a sample bond
5 form in the rules so that individuals or
6 attorneys who are not conversant with the bid
7 protest process would have an opportunity to see
8 as a general proposition what a bond should look
9 like.
10 JAPC staff has objected to the sample bond
11 form saying that it prescribes substantive
12 contractual obligations, which is beyond the
13 authority of the Governor and Cabinet to adopt a
14 rule concerning that issue.
15 To the contrary, I think the very language
16 of the rule indicates that a bond can be in
17 substantially this form. It is not a
18 requirement that the bond must be in this form,
19 but it is an exemplar of a bond that someone who
20 is unfamiliar with the process can utilize.
21 And I think clearly that it's within the
22 statutory authority of this Agency to adopt
23 because you're given authority under 120 to
24 adopt rules dealing with the filing of notices
25 of protest and formal written protests, and for
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1 the resolution of protests.
2 Obviously a bond that is required to be
3 filed with either a notice of protest or a
4 formal written protest is part of perfecting
5 this process. So we think there's ample
6 authority to adopt this bond form.
7 Secondly, the next section that they
8 objected to was a provision that indicates that
9 if an agency has a position that it wants to
10 reject a filing -- a notice of protest or a
11 formal written protest if the bond is not filed,
12 as required by law, that the agency has to
13 include in its notice that failure to file that
14 bond will result in dismissal of the notice of
15 protest, or the formal written protest.
16 There is Florida case law that already
17 gives agencies in the state of Florida that
18 authority under existing Chapter 120. And all
19 this is is a provision in the rule itself to
20 make uniform among all State agencies what case
21 law already allows these agencies to do.
22 So our suggestion to you is that you also
23 have ample statutory authority already existing
24 to do this.
25 And finally, in Subsection (4), JAPC
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1 objected, without specific -- without
2 specifically saying what the basis of their
3 objection was, to the disposition of the bond
4 after the formal written protest has been
5 resolved.
6 That is, at the outset, a bond is posted
7 with the agency. Assuming it goes all the way
8 through the formal hearing process, results in a
9 recommended and final order, and goes up on
10 appeal and the appeal is finally resolved, the
11 agency is still sitting there with the bond
12 form. There's nothing in the rule that tells
13 them what to do with that bond.
14 This rule essentially says, when everything
15 is over, if the petitioner prevails, return his
16 bond to him. If the petitioner loses, but no
17 costs are charged against him, return his bond
18 to him.
19 And if the petitioner loses and costs are
20 assessed, return the bond after he provides --
21 after he complies with the statutory
22 requirements with regard to payment of costs
23 that are assessed against him to the agency.
24 This again is the only place that you will
25 see a full catalog of what is required of -- of
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1 parties that are contesting agency procurement
2 decisions. And we think, not only is it a good
3 idea, it's good agency policy, and it lets all
4 legal practitioners, rather than just the ten or
5 twelve of us here in Tallahassee who do this as
6 a regular -- as a regular matter, to know what
7 is required in the course of filing and
8 disposing of these types of proceedings.
9 I'd be happy to answer any questions that
10 any of you might have.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any questions?
12 Thank you, sir.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Got a motion?
15 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, I made a mistake
16 when I read a piece of that, and I just wanted
17 to read it again.
18 And that was actually on the point that
19 Bill --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Should have put a not in
21 there, right?
22 DR. BRADLEY: Yes.
23 So I'm going to read the first part of that
24 motion again just so that I won't make a
25 mistake.
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1 The -- authorize the Secretary to begin the
2 rule amendment process for Rules 28-103.005 and
3 28-106.302, FAC; and take no action on rule
4 28-110.005, FAC. I had left out the word no
5 before.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Would you please
7 explain to me the rationale of the staff on
8 saying no?
9 DR. BRADLEY: For the same reasons that
10 Mr. Williams just explained, that we -- we want
11 to have a difference with JAPC on this point,
12 and move forward with exploring --
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
14 DR. BRADLEY: -- how this plays out.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: That's the end of the
21 Administration Commission.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
23 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
24 concluded.)
25 *
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1 DR. BRADLEY: Florida Land --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Are you conclud--
3 through?
4 DR. BRADLEY: Yes, sir.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
6 DR. BRADLEY: Okay.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Florida Land and Water
8 Adjudicatory Commission, right?
9 DR. BRADLEY: Right.
10 Item number 1, request approval of the
11 minutes of the August 28 --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
16 Without objection, they're approved.
17 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2 is -- will be
18 an item on which there'll be a number of people
19 who would like to talk. It is request
20 authorization to enter the draft final order.
21 We have a number of speakers here, and
22 we've set 15 minutes for each side in toto.
23 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
24 DR. BRADLEY: If -- the first speaker is
25 Mr. Gerald Robbins, who's speaking on behalf of
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1 the Family Trust.
2 Is Mr. Robbins -- okay.
3 He will have 15 minutes, and I'll -- I'll
4 let him know when he's done, Governor.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
6 MR. ROBBINS: Governor Chiles, members of
7 the Cabinet. I -- the Adjudicatory Commission,
8 I should say.
9 It has been suggested that this -- this
10 comes in a declaratory statement in which
11 petitioners had requested that SWFWMD issue a
12 statement stating their authority, and to
13 identify the specific statutory authority by
14 chapter, subsection, and specific wording in
15 which they relied on to regulate the property.
16 But since this has been raised as an issue
17 that the declaratory statement is not of
18 statewide significance, I would like to set
19 aside the specific application to our property
20 until -- and then address the issue of statewide
21 significance to the interpretation of statute.
22 This Commission has exclusive authority
23 over Chapter 373, and does have authority to
24 review any order in order to ensure consistency
25 with the provisions and purposes of Chapter 373.
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1 Also it states here that the -- for
2 statutory interpretation or rule interpretation
3 and have statewide significance. It's our
4 understanding that any time that interpretation
5 of statutory words is required in order to
6 determine the authority to regulate a property,
7 or to delineate a wetland, then that immediately
8 takes on statewide significance.
9 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
10 room.)
11 MR. ROBBINS: And where the property that
12 we have may not be of statewide significance, it
13 is the enforcement of the authority that they
14 have determined -- in other words, authority
15 that does not exist by statute.
16 So we have appealed to this Commission to
17 review the statute, and to determine where in
18 the statute that there is authority to regulate
19 waters that extend beyond the landward extent of
20 waters of the state as public waters.
21 Section 373.016(3) specifically authorizes
22 regulation of waters of the state. Those are
23 waters of public domain.
24 Those waters of the state are defined under
25 Section 403.031. And it starts with the mean
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1 high waterline of Florida Bay and extends
2 throughout the whole state, coming back again to
3 a mean high waterline.
4 Subsection (b) of 403.031 states that the
5 area that is described in Section (a) will be
6 known as waters of the state. And --
7 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
8 MR. ROBBINS: -- it specifically states
9 that the landward extent of those waters of the
10 state will be delineated by the ratification
11 under Section 373.421(1).
12 And under that section was ratified
13 Chapter 62-340 of the Florida
14 Administrative Code.
15 Now, under the ruling from SWFWMD, it does
16 have significance from a regional standpoint.
17 But we also find that --
18 At the Governing Board hearing and when --
19 which the declaratory statement was issued,
20 there was some significant discussion concerning
21 a similar case in Highland County extending it
22 beyond the regional area.
23 This was a case of which -- SWFWMD versus
24 James and Marilyn Herd. This was a similar case
25 in that the same issues were raised, the same
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1 authority was asserted by SWFWMD from the
2 statutes, the same defense was raised that the
3 statutes simply did not provide authority to
4 regulate their property.
5 Now, there's two significances here. One:
6 The Court adjudicat-- adversely adjudicated
7 against SWFWMD; and they then appealed to the
8 Second District Court, who affirmed that
9 decision.
10 Now, in this case, SWFWMD is again
11 asserting the same authority that they have been
12 denied by this Herd case in Highland County, and
13 also affirmed by the Second District Court of
14 Appeal.
15 Our property is in the same
16 Second Circuit -- same Tenth Circuit, I should
17 say.
18 Now, the other significance to the Herd
19 case is that in that, the other four
20 Water Management Districts, and FDEP, filed an
21 amicus curiae brief in which they also assert
22 the same authority to regulate those waters in
23 the state.
24 In other words, they're asserting authority
25 to regulate rain as it falls on the ground, and
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1 the sheet flows across the ground, they claim
2 jurisdiction at that point.
3 The statutes very clearly limit them to
4 waters within the landward extent of waters of
5 the state.
6 Now, in the -- this is the amicus curiae
7 brief from the Water Management District. This
8 was all discussed in the record at the
9 declaratory statement, so it's part of the
10 record.
11 It says, the Herds argue that no surface
12 water flows across their property. To accept
13 this remarkable contention, then the Herds were
14 required to submit evidence that no rainfall
15 ever falls on the Herds' property. The Herds
16 plainly offered no such evidence as their answer
17 brief had to concede that rainfall did occur on
18 the property.
19 SWFWMD permitting requirements regulates
20 waters in or across the waters in the state.
21 And that's waters of the state, by statute.
22 Waters include surface waters comprised of
23 diffuse surface water and storm water.
24 Now, this then takes it to statewide
25 significance, because this is -- a policy's
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1 being enforced by all of the Water Management
2 Districts, and FDEP, none of which can be found
3 in statute.
4 We have been attempting for ten years --
5 ten-and-a-half years, since April 21st, 1987,
6 when we were cited a violation for filling a
7 wetland.
8 The wetland, pursuant to the statutes, must
9 be delineated under the new delineation which is
10 under Section 373.421(1), and again as ratified
11 under 373.421(1).
12 Now, under the ratification under 62-340,
13 it clearly states under 62-340 under 3002(d), it
14 says: Even -- first of all, it says it must be
15 inundated and saturated. That's under
16 Subsection 19. Our property can't be inundated
17 or saturated.
18 But anyway, it says under 3002(d), it says
19 that even if it meets all of those criterion --
20 if it can be inundated and saturated -- which
21 ours cannot be -- even if it has all the
22 vegetative indexes as stated under
23 Subsection 219 I believe it is.
24 And even if -- no, if everything is
25 present, including the hydric soil according to
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1 the soil conservation -- if everything is
2 perfect, it meets the requirements of a wetland
3 by delineation, it clearly states the
4 delineation cannot extend beyond the seasonal
5 high water mark.
6 Seasonal high water mark is defined under
7 the same sections there -- or definitions as the
8 area that extends beyond a water body that is
9 wetted by the natural rise and fall of the water
10 body.
11 Under the 403.031(b), it states that an
12 area that is not included in the definition of
13 waters of the state, if it is contiguous --
14 contiguous meaning it has to touch on -- almost
15 all of one side, a continuation of a
16 shoreline -- contiguous by virtue of the
17 presence of a wetland, a water course -- a water
18 course needs to have a bed and a bank and a
19 current, and must be fed by something more
20 permanent than rainfall.
21 We have no water on our property, except
22 rainfall. They still declare it to be a
23 jurisdictional wetland.
24 So it has to be contiguous or an extension
25 of a shoreline.
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1 It also says that waters wholly owned by
2 one person other than a state is included only
3 for the possibility of discharge under water --
4 other properties.
5 Under the authorities to regulate,
6 everything says in there -- it says that under
7 373.413, to regulate -- that is, construction
8 and alteration of the surface waters, it says it
9 must be delineated again under 373.421.
10 But it starts out -- it says: Except for
11 the exemptions set forth in this part.
12 Section 373.416 for maintenance and operation,
13 says except for the exemptions set forth
14 herein.
15 Section 373.406 says in there that the
16 activity specified in 40-- 373.406(2) are
17 exempt.
18 Section 373.023 says that all waters in the
19 state are subject to regulation unless expressly
20 exempt by law.
21 Now, all of these are exemptions, they are
22 specific limitations on authority to regulate.
23 SWFWMD and all the Water Management Districts on
24 a statewide basis claim authority to regulate
25 wherever it rains.
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1 Now, if -- since it rains on every square
2 inch of the state of Florida, according to
3 SWFWMD's interpretation, they would already have
4 jurisdiction over their entire district.
5 Therefore, it would seem that with all of
6 these exemption statutes, that the Legislature
7 has wasted a lot of time, effort, and taxpayers'
8 money in writing these exemption statutes if
9 they're all nullified by SWFWMD's new found
10 authority to regulate by virtue of rainfall.
11 So this is something that's being enforced
12 on a statewide basis, it is a wrongful
13 enforcement of authority from the statutes.
14 This Commission has exclusive authority over
15 that statute.
16 And we have simply appealed here, after
17 ten years of not being able to get them to go to
18 the statute book and to comply with the statutes
19 as they're written.
20 Our contention is that these statutes for
21 the -- for the -- these -- the environmental
22 statutes in the State of Florida are well
23 written. We -- we concur with them. We believe
24 that they're in plain and simple English. We
25 believe that they are clear, they're concise,
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1 they are not vague or ambiguous in any way.
2 And according to the rules of statutory
3 construction -- and principal statutory
4 construction, it says that if they are not
5 vague, then we should use and stay with the
6 words that are used by the Legislature, give
7 them their plain language meaning, and stop
8 right there.
9 It also states that additional
10 interpretation by the courts or administrative
11 agency is foreclosed if the language is clear
12 and concise.
13 We contend it is clear and concise, and we
14 would like this Commission to look at those
15 words and to enforce those words as they are
16 written by the Legislature. But we would like
17 that enforcement extended to include mandatory
18 compliance by SWFWMD, as well as by ourselves.
19 So our appeal is to you simply the fact
20 that this is of statewide significance. This
21 has gone on for ten years, and we have
22 documented now where all of the
23 Water Management Districts and FDEP are
24 enforcing this.
25 Now, I received this morning -- and the
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1 issues that -- as far as the controversy is
2 concerned -- let's see.
3 Where did I go with it here. I had it here
4 just a minute ago. Sorry about that.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Three-ring binders,
6 Mr. Robbins --
7 MR. ROBBINS: Yes, I know. I --
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- that's the key to
9 life.
10 MR. ROBBINS: Okay. This is ten years of
11 stuff crammed into just a few minutes, so it's
12 kind of hard to do that.
13 But the issues that -- as far as the
14 statutes are concerned, I received this morning
15 from SWFWMD a listing of authorities that grant
16 SWFWMD jurisdiction over petitioner.
17 These are the issues I would like to have
18 this Commission look at these and relate them to
19 statute. One in particular starts out, as I
20 mentioned here, 373.016(3) grants authority to
21 regulate waters of the state, and they cite the
22 same statutes that say: Directs Water
23 Management Districts exercise powers authority
24 by Statutue 373 to conserve and control waters
25 in the state.
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1 So waters in the state is the difference
2 between regulation and exemption.
3 They also say down here that
4 Chapter 373.403(13) and (14) is now dredging and
5 filling. But it also says that it must be
6 wetlands and surface water delineated by
7 373.421(1), and they leave that part off again.
8 So under -- well, could I -- since there's
9 ten years of information here, and I've only
10 touched on a fraction of the issues that we've
11 been at, could I defer the remainder of my time
12 for rebuttal?
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I --
14 MR. ROBBINS: I'm sure they're going to
15 raise some other issues.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- I'd like to -- to
17 just ask a question.
18 Mr. Robbins makes a -- I think a cogent and
19 well organized argument. I think what it
20 boils --
21 MR. ROBBINS: I may not be --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- down to, if I --
23 if I understand it correctly, is your assertion
24 that SWFWMD does not have the ability to
25 regulate certain waters in the state of Florida,
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1 including, of course, the waters that are --
2 MR. ROBBINS: Yes, sir.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the mosquito
4 ditches on that particular parcel of property.
5 So -- and if that is the basis of your
6 argument -- and I trust it is -- then I
7 obviously need to hear from -- from staff and
8 find out what cogent, well organized argument
9 there is to the contrary.
10 MR. ROBBINS: Yes. Okay.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And probably be the
12 best way to move.
13 MR. ROBBINS: Okay.
14 Would I have an opportunity to rebut
15 though?
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Got to ask the boss.
17 He appears to be answering in the
18 affirmative.
19 MR. ROBBINS: Thank you.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: (Nodding head.)
21 MR. ROBBINS: Thank you.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
23 DR. BRADLEY: Next -- on the other side, we
24 have Mr. Rick Tschantz. He's the
25 General Counsel for the Southwest Florida Water
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1 Management District.
2 And he'll be sharing some of his time with
3 Robert Gough who is representing DEP.
4 MR. TSCHANTZ: Good morning, Governor,
5 and --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
7 MR. TSCHANTZ: -- members of the Cabinet.
8 My name is Richard Tschantz. I'm the Interim
9 General Counsel at the Southwest Florida Water
10 Management District.
11 And the staff recommendation, if it -- if
12 it was not clear, is that the Commission
13 exercise its discretion not to accept this case
14 for review. And the Water Management District
15 and the Department of Environmental Protection
16 are in favor of the staff recommendation.
17 You do not -- you have the full discretion
18 in what cases to accept because the statute says
19 you may accept them for review. And this comes
20 to you via a declaratory statement that was
21 requested by the Water Management District from
22 Mr. Robbins to delineate what authority we have
23 to regulate on the property once we issued yet
24 another notice of violation to --
25 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
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1 room.)
2 MR. TSCHANTZ: -- the property owners.
3 The case has a very long history. And
4 between the District and the property owners,
5 which Mr. Robbins represents, finally it went
6 into Circuit Court, at which time, after years,
7 in 1994, we reached a mediated settlement
8 agreement.
9 And as part of that mediated settlement
10 agreement, a permit was -- it was agreed by the
11 property owners that they would get a permit.
12 And eventually, after -- after this case
13 came up, just this past August, a permit was
14 issued. And that allows them to do the things
15 they want to do on their property. And it was,
16 in fact, issued by the Water Management
17 District.
18 So in support of not accepting this -- this
19 is an intervening act that has occurred -- we
20 believe you should exercise your discretion to
21 not accept this case, because it was the result
22 of a mediated settlement agreement. That permit
23 was required by the District to be issued if
24 they complied with the terms in applying for it
25 properly, which they did, and then which we
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1 upheld the agreement and issued the permit.
2 And they then petitioned against that
3 permit, even though the settlement agreement
4 said they -- it would agree to get it. We
5 resolved that, so a DOAH proceeding was
6 averted.
7 So we've had other forums here in which to
8 go forward and litigate these issues. Both the
9 Circuit Court and the Division of Administrative
10 Hearings has been -- properly looked at these
11 issues. And one reason, I believe, that this
12 Commission should follow the staff
13 recommendation and exercise its discretion not
14 to accept this case for further review, is that
15 it makes sense not to hear these issues again,
16 especially given the fact that this permit has
17 been issued after this proceeding started.
18 And also it would avoid the possibility
19 of -- if you accepted it on the merits, and did
20 something different to what has already been
21 done, it avoids the issue of a conflict arising
22 and different results coming.
23 So, again, the statute says you may accept
24 these cases. This is one ground in support that
25 you should not accept this case, and I think
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1 it's a very important ground.
2 I can -- I have one other main point, or I
3 can answer a question, Commissioner Brogan, if
4 you --
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No, sir. Please.
6 MR. TSCHANTZ: Another important
7 discretionary reason why you should not accept
8 is because all of the things that are asked for
9 in this petition by Mr. Robbins are not
10 consistent with the available remedies under the
11 statute that this Commission can look at.
12 He has asked you to adjudicate issues on --
13 as you sit as an appellate body, as to
14 constitutional issues, private property rights,
15 tell the District to rescind their notice of
16 violation. All of these things that he's asking
17 for really are not consistent with the available
18 remedies under the statute.
19 So if you're looking for another ground in
20 which not to accept it, I think this is a very
21 important ground.
22 And lastly, the -- those two points that I
23 just made, I think, are well within your
24 discretion, and an appellate court would not
25 disturb those on appeal if that were appealed.
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1 And the last point is really not as
2 important. But it's just not a case, I don't
3 believe, that lends itself well to an opinion
4 which would serve to clarify and guide the
5 regulatory -- the regulated public as to this
6 particular case. It comes to you on a
7 declaratory statement. Those things apply by
8 definition to just that particular property and
9 that particular set of activities on that
10 property.
11 So it's not an issue of statewide
12 precedence.
13 So those are the reasons that I would
14 encourage the Commission to follow the staff
15 recommendation and to not accept the case for
16 further review.
17 I can -- if you did that, the declaratory
18 statement by the Water Management District that
19 says we do have the proper authority to regulate
20 this property, as we've already done through
21 Circuit Court and the administrative proceeding,
22 that declaratory statement then would stand.
23 And it's the same result as if you -- if
24 you were to accept the case, hear the whole case
25 on the merits, and follow the DEP
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1 recommendation, the proposed final order, it's
2 the same result.
3 Because the declaratory statement and the
4 proposed final order by DEP on the merits come
5 out to the same conclusion, that the District
6 has regulatory authority on this property, and
7 that no statutory exemptions apply.
8 So we're getting to the same place.
9 If you have any questions on the merits, I
10 haven't addressed those, I can give a short
11 summary of that. Or -- but, again, I don't -- I
12 favor not getting to the point of the merits for
13 the reasons that I've stated.
14 Although I can answer any questions, or I
15 can -- I can give a short summary of the merits
16 in the District's perspective.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Just one question,
18 Governor --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- similar to that of
21 Mr. Robbins. Mr. Robbins' case is based on his
22 belief that SWFWMD doesn't possess regulatory
23 ability to generate this kind of an activity on
24 that particular parcel of property.
25 And I appreciate your comments. But do I
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1 understand then you to say that it is your
2 belief that SWFWMD does possess regulatory
3 ability to regulate the activities on that piece
4 of property.
5 MR. TSCHANTZ: Absolutely.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Bottom line.
7 MR. TSCHANTZ: Bottom line. Absolutely.
8 There's no question in our mind, it's not even a
9 close case.
10 We have -- as I've stated, we have set this
11 out in numerous forums already. And if you are
12 constructing a Surface Water Management system,
13 whether in wetlands or in uplands, you have to
14 come to the Water Management District to
15 regulate that. Agriculture does that,
16 commercial developments do that.
17 Here we have a history of violations by
18 this property owner going in and bringing new
19 fill and constructing new roads into wetlands on
20 the property, and it is -- there are no
21 exemptions that apply based on the facts of this
22 particular case.
23 We have gone around and around on this
24 issue in other forums. And we strongly believe
25 that -- that there is no question yet that we
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1 do.
2 If you were to adopt on the merits,
3 Mr. Robbins' position, there would be no
4 regulation of agriculture by the Water
5 Management District in this state. And that is
6 not the law.
7 He is saying that if there is agriculture
8 on the property, then we are exempt by the
9 agricultural exemption in 373.406.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: With all due respect,
11 I don't think that's true. I think Mr. Robbins
12 was trying to make the case that there are
13 certain exceptions, but clearly that SWFWMD does
14 have the ability to regulate a significant
15 amount of water flow in the state of Florida.
16 But bottom line is, you answered my
17 question about this particular assertion.
18 MR. TSCHANTZ: Okay. Thank you.
19 DR. BRADLEY: We have about 5 minutes
20 remaining, and Robert Gough representing DEP
21 would also like to speak.
22 MR. GOUGH: The Commission's rules require
23 the Department to provide a recommendation in
24 cases such as these, and we recommend that you
25 accept your staff's draft final order which
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1 would decline to accept -- that would exercise
2 your -- your discretion not to accept
3 jurisdiction in this case.
4 The reason being that the -- the petitioner
5 in this case has actually received a permit from
6 the Water Management District to conduct the --
7 the activities. It was all -- the petitioner
8 was also involved in some prior civil
9 litigations that were settled. And the
10 Department believes that basically there's no
11 merit to the legal issues that are raised in the
12 petition.
13 Therefore, we recommend that you -- it's
14 most appropriate for you to exercise your
15 discretion to decline to accept jurisdiction.
16 Getting to Commissioner Brogan's comment,
17 one of the -- one of the things that's easily
18 confused is that in 1993, the Legislature did
19 away with the distinction between isolated
20 and -- and what were previously called
21 jurisdictional wetlands. There are no
22 differences, regulatory speaking, as to those
23 categories of wetlands any more, with the
24 exception of the geographical territory of the
25 Northwest Florida Water Management District in
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1 the panhandle.
2 Therefore, that issue is sort of like a
3 misconstrued red herring, it's not relevant.
4 Another -- and another issue is under
5 373.414, which is where the regulatory authority
6 is being applied in this case, the -- the issue
7 is the District has the authority to protect the
8 water resources of the District. It's not
9 limited to wetlands, it's limited to -- or -- it
10 applies to the water resources.
11 And the cases uniformly construed that even
12 if you're an uplands, if you're building a
13 shopping center in uplands, and you were
14 building a large parking area in that shopping
15 center which would affect the flow of surface
16 waters, then you would come under the
17 jurisdiction of Section 373.413 and the
18 regulatory authority of the Water Management
19 District.
20 As to the -- the agricultural exemption,
21 yes, it is in the statute. But to understand
22 that, you have to look at the five cases that
23 have interpreted it, you have to look at the
24 legislative history, and you have to look at the
25 provisions of the model water code which the
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1 legislation was an enactment to codify.
2 And the -- those cases, and the model water
3 code, and these comments are clearly make --
4 clearly establish that in order for the
5 agricultural exemption to apply, the activity
6 cannot more than incidently impound or divert
7 surface waters. And we think that this activity
8 clearly exceeds that threshold.
9 If there are any other --
10 Did I respond to your question?
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
12 MR. GOUGH: I'd be happy to answer any
13 other questions.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I have a quick
15 question.
16 I respect the position now that DEP has
17 taken on this subject. But initially, you
18 formally filed a recommendation to accept
19 jurisdiction.
20 MR. GOUGH: Yes. And we did that -- and
21 we -- and we think you could accept
22 jurisdiction. It's -- because we think that
23 this case involves issues of -- conclusions of
24 law that could have -- that it could be -- have
25 given precedential effect.
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1 I'll admit, that's an area of law that's
2 not well settled. The -- the declaratory
3 statements on their face are supposed to be
4 limited to the petitioner, and his -- and his
5 particular factual circumstances.
6 On the other hand, 120 requires an agency
7 that enters a declaratory statement to list it
8 and make it available so that the regulated
9 people can find it. And that statute that says
10 that you have to list orders that have
11 precedential effect, and then specifically --
12 and additionally, it says you have to list
13 declaratory statements.
14 So I think that's an area of law that is a
15 little bit gray. But we think that you could
16 accept jurisdiction if you wanted to.
17 After we submitted our recommendation on
18 accepting jurisdiction, the Water Management
19 District actually issued the permit to the
20 applicant. And we think that alters, you know,
21 the equities and the fairness of the proceedings
22 and provides, you know, some reason for the
23 Commission to decline to be bothered any further
24 with this issue since the petitioner basically
25 has a permit to do what he wants to do.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Further question?
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I heard you
4 correctly there, you're kind of on the fence,
5 that it could go either way.
6 MR. GOUGH: I think -- yeah, I think
7 it's --
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And certainly you
9 would have recommended acceptance if there
10 hadn't been an agreement reached.
11 MR. GOUGH: I think that the order involves
12 interesting and important issues of construction
13 of the agricultural exemption statute. And
14 that -- and that was the basis of the
15 Department's initial recommendation that you --
16 that you accept jurisdiction on it.
17 But, you know, and I think that -- and
18 there was a real controversy going on there.
19 And now since the applicant or the petitioner
20 has received its permit from the Water
21 Management District to conduct these activities,
22 I think the equities have altered.
23 But you could -- I believe legally you
24 could accept jurisdiction and -- and --
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Because of the gray
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1 aspects of your comment, would you recommend
2 that we accept?
3 MR. GOUGH: No, I'm recommending that --
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I heard what
5 you recommended.
6 MR. GOUGH: Yeah.
7 No. I -- I think the Department's standing
8 by the recommendation. We just don't think this
9 case merits your attention any further.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Further questions?
12 Thank you, sir.
13 DR. BRADLEY: That's all the speakers,
14 unless you wanted to give Mr. Robbins a chance
15 to rebut, as Commissioner Brogan indicated.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I think we probably
17 should.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I sort of said you
19 would, sir.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I perceived the nod
21 also yes. So I think --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I think we ought
24 to give him a chance to rebut.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: He didn't use his
2 entire 15 --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's give him 3 minutes.
4 DR. BRADLEY: All right. He only had about
5 a minute-and-a-half left, Governor.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Let's give
7 him 3 minutes.
8 MR. ROBBINS: Thank you, Governor.
9 They make reference to a mediated
10 settlement and a --
11 (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
12 MR. ROBBINS: -- also a petition -- or a
13 permit that was issued. The mediated agreement,
14 which was signed back there, this was signed
15 two years ago -- two years prior to the
16 declaratory statement that was here. So it was
17 still pursuing the issue of jurisdiction.
18 However, on page 3 of the mediated
19 settlement, it says: It is further agreed and
20 stipulated by the parties that the defendant
21 shall be permitted to argue the availability and
22 applicability of statutory exemptions,
23 including, but not limited, to agriculture
24 exemptions provided by law, as well as
25 defendant's settlement pursuant to this
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1 agreement.
2 This is enforced by a partial summary
3 judgment in which on page 2, Item 3, the judge
4 states: The parties are hereby directed to
5 mediate the remaining issues concerning the
6 availability and applicability of statutory
7 exemptions in mitigating statements.
8 SWFWMD was specifically instructed not to
9 take the second Notice of Violation two years
10 after this and incorporate it into this
11 settlement. It was not to be.
12 I filed a petition with this Commission to
13 stay the issuance of that permit. They were
14 attempting to issue the permit, which they did.
15 They denied me the right to -- to represent the
16 To's before there.
17 I have a piece of property there, too, but
18 they denied me the right to represent the To's
19 before the Governing Board. They stated that I
20 did not have authority to represent them, and
21 the Chairman of the Governing Board asked
22 specifically Mr. Robinson, who is the senior
23 attorney -- I had given a letter of
24 authorization from Mr. Vincent To, Trustee of
25 the To Family Trust, authorizing me to represent
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1 them there.
2 I'd given it to Rick Tschantz, who were
3 Acting Interim General Counsel. He did not read
4 that letter to the Chairman.
5 The Chairman stated to him, he says, we
6 have -- he says, we have a recommendation from
7 these people's attorney that this man does not
8 have authority to represent these people before
9 this Commission.
10 He says, yes, sir.
11 And he says, also, the To's will have this
12 permit issued.
13 He said, yes, sir.
14 We have a binding contract. Yes, sir.
15 Therefore, they issued the permit.
16 And then they take that permit and buttress
17 their position by using that as a basis of
18 authority to tell this Commission that
19 everything is all fine and dandy.
20 But this whole issue before this Commission
21 comes from a declaratory -- from a Notice of
22 Violation two years after -- no -- ten years
23 ago, we didn't know what this administrative
24 process was all about, so we didn't answer in
25 14 days. We lost our right --
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1 (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
2 MR. ROBBINS: -- to administrative
3 hearing.
4 SWFWMD convinced the courts that the issue
5 of jurisdiction should be resolved as parts of
6 the merits of the case.
7 So after ten years, the case did not go to
8 trial. Therefore, no jurisdiction has ever been
9 issued on this thing.
10 In the mediated settlement, this was a
11 settlement in which the To's have spent well
12 over $200,000 defending their position and --
13 against enforcement by SWFWMD, and they were
14 confronted with a position where they had to
15 have a $60,000 retainer fee to go to -- to go to
16 trial. They didn't have it.
17 So they signed a mediated agreement, which
18 was simply to preserve a portion of their
19 property against the threat of taking by -- all
20 of their property by SWFWMD by fines and
21 penalties.
22 That's the reason for in here the
23 stipulation that the right to continue pursuing
24 these statutory exemptions -- and that's what's
25 here.
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1 So SWFWMD does not want this to be
2 reviewed, because the statutes do not contain
3 any words whatsoever that give them authority to
4 regulate waters beyond the landward extent of
5 the water of the state, and it does not give
6 them authority to regulate an isolated wetland
7 that is not connected to waters of the state.
8 It's private property, protected by private
9 property rights. Also Section 373.171 --
10 DR. BRADLEY: Three minutes are up --
11 MR. ROBBINS: Time's up.
12 I thank you kindly, gentlemen. I hope
13 you'll consider, and please read the briefs.
14 It's all there.
15 Thank you.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move staff
18 recommendation, Governor.
19 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2 was request
20 authorization to enter the draft --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Wait.
22 DR. BRADLEY: -- final order. That was
23 Item number 2.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh, I see. All right.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll move
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1 Item number 2.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: You moved --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Item number 2, staff
5 recommendation.
6 Is there a second?
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: (Nodding head.)
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
9 Without objection, staff recommendation is
10 approved.
11 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, request
12 approval to publish the notices of proposed rule
13 appeal in the Florida Administrative Weekly and
14 approval of the proposed statement of agency
15 organization and operation.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
21 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
22 *
23
24
25
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ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT
October 21, 1997
151
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Board of Trustees,
2 Internal Improvement Trust Fund.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Do that one
4 again?
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: We've been over this --
6 I think this is St. Johns Water --
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: St. Johns?
8 Okay.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: St. Johns.
10 MR. GREEN: Governor, we have three agenda
11 items on the Board of Trustees' agenda, and then
12 we have the Department of Environmental
13 Protection's agenda.
14 Three items on the Trustees' agenda are
15 from the St. Johns River Water Management
16 Districts.
17 The Department's recommendation is
18 withdrawal of all three items.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move withdrawal.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: I believe we can do that.
22 Without objection, the items are
23 withdrawn.
24 (The St. Johns River Water Management
25 District Agenda was concluded.)
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
October 21, 1997
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1 MR. GREEN: The Department of Environmental
2 Protection agenda.
3 Item 1, minutes of the September 9th, 1997,
4 meeting.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, the minutes are
9 approved.
10 MR. GREEN: Item 2 is consideration of a
11 final order concerning compliance with land use
12 and zoning for the City of Tallahassee
13 application for power plant siting certification
14 of Unit 8 project in the City of St. Marks.
15 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor --
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- at the
19 appropriate time, I have a -- an amendment.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved. And
22 then the --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Do you want a second
24 for --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: And second.
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October 21, 1997
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1 All right. Attorney General has an
2 amendment.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move the
4 staff recommendation with an amendment that
5 clarifies more specifically what this Board
6 is -- is determining to be in compliance with
7 the local Comprehensive Plan and Zoning.
8 The amendment specifies the type of fuel
9 being used, and proposed to be used, at the
10 site. There is no objection to this from the
11 applicant.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. You accept
13 the amendment?
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. The amendment
16 is accepted.
17 So many as favor the motion, signify by
18 saying aye.
19 THE CABINET: Aye.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
21 It's approved.
22 MR. GREEN: Second Substitute Item number 3
23 is establish report to the Siting Board
24 regarding the Manatee orimulsion project.
25 Governor, after the last meeting, we
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
October 21, 1997
154
1 brought this back to the Cabinet Aides last
2 week. And at that time, we found out that we
3 needed to reconsider the Department's
4 position --
5 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
6 MR. GREEN: -- we needed additional
time to
7 review the representations made by
8 Florida Power & Light with respect to their
9 reductions in emissions.
10 So we have filed, and as I understand it
11 today, there was a hearing. And the continuance
12 has been granted from -- to have the hearing in
13 mid-January to end Janua-- to the end of
14 January.
15 All parties were at the -- at the -- the
16 hearing this morning, with the exception of the
17 Port of Tampa. It's my understanding that all
18 the parties agreed to that continuance. They
19 also agreed to the schedule for production --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: So it's moved --
21 MR. GREEN: -- of documents --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- up to January, and
23 that satisfies the Department that that gives
24 them enough time, and it appears that that
25 satisfies the other intervenors, or people that
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
October 21, 1997
155
1 are contestants in the thing.
2 MR. GREEN: With the exception of the
3 Port of Tampa --
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Port of Tampa.
5 MR. GREEN: -- and I don't -- I can't speak
6 for them, but they do have someone here today
7 that wishes to speak to you.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
9 MR. GREEN: Rita Carlson.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: It sounds like we're on
11 track on that. So that's --
12 All right. We have a motion on the
13 report?
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is there required
15 action then that we would need to take today?
16 MR. GREEN: Not really. Just a status
17 report. But we do have a speaker. She's
18 coming.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. I move we
20 rise.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Wait a minute. We
22 have a speaker.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We have a
25 speaker.
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October 21, 1997
156
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Port of
3 Tampa.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
5 MS. CARLSON: Good afternoon, Governor and
6 Cabinet. I just want to say thank you very much
7 to all of you for what you've done for us so
8 far.
9 And specifically you, Governor Chiles, for
10 suggesting that we be heard in reference to our
11 transportation issues at the hearing; and all of
12 you for your efforts.
13 I cannot speak for the Port Tampa City
14 Civic Association, but I can speak for the
15 residents in that any time frame that we are
16 allowed for discovery or the ability to present
17 our facts to the hearing judge, or anyone else,
18 for that matter, that will listen to us, we're
19 very appreciative for.
20 I thank you very, very much. That's the
21 only reason I came today was just to say
22 thank you, and that we --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
24 MS. CARLSON: -- are glad that you heard us
25 and listened --
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
October 21, 1997
157
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Not many people come up
2 to thank us.
3 MS. CARLSON: Well, you've worked very
4 hard, and it's a very sensitive issue. And I
5 understand that it's very difficult to make a
6 call when you have friends on both sides, and
7 it's very difficult for the future, and to keep
8 that in mind.
9 But we do appreciate your efforts.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
12 I failed to get a motion on our meeting
13 times. Calendar -- clemency calendar dates from
14 the Cabinet and the Aides for 1998.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 (The Department of Environmental Protection
20 Agenda was concluded.)
21 *
22 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
23 1:12 p.m.)
24
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 157 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 28TH day of OCTOBER, 1997.
17
18
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
850/878-2221
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.