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2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
4 Representing: 5 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 7 ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 8 MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION BOARD OF TRUSTEES, INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 9 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 10
11 The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles 12 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, 13 March 24, 1998, commencing at approximately 9:53 a.m.
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16 Reported by:
17 LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter 18 Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter 19 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large 20
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT 24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES Governor 4 BOB CRAWFORD 5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller 7 SANDRA B. MORTHAM 8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General 10 BILL NELSON 11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN Commissioner of Education 13 * 14
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 24, 1998 3
1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION: (Presented by Tom Herndon, 4 Executive Director)
5 1 Approved 6 2 Approved 6 6 3 Approved 7 4 Approved 8 7 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE: 8 (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III, Director) 9 1 Approved 9 10 2 Approved 9 3 Approved 10 11 4 Approved 10 5 Approved 10 12 DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS: 13 (Presented by Carlos L. Rainwater, Executive Director) 14 1 Approved 12 15 ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: 16 (Presented by Henry Dean, Executive Director) 17 1 Approved 14 18 2, 3, 4 Deferred 14
19 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: (Presented by Robert L. Bedford, Ph.D., 20 Deputy Commissioner)
21 1 Approved 16 2 Approved 16 22 3 Report 16 4 Approved 24 23 5 Approved 36
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 24, 1998 4
1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 ITEM ACTION PAGE 3 MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION: 4 (Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D., Executive Director) 5 A Approved 87 6 BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE 7 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND: 8 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III, Assistant Secretary) 9 1 Approved 89 10 2 Approved 89 3 Approved 89 11 4 Approved 90 Substitute 5 Approved 90 12 6 Approved 91 Substitute 7 Approved 91 13 8 Approved 91 9 Approved 92 14 Substitute 10 Approved 92 Substitute 11 Approved 92 15 Second Substitute 12 Approved 93 16 Substitute 13 Withdrawn 93 14 Approved 93 17 15 Approved 94 16 Approved 94 18 17 Approved 94 18 Approved 95 19 19 Approved 95 20 Approved 96 20 21 Approved 97
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 24, 1998 5
1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 ITEM ACTION PAGE 3 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER 4 ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION: (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D., 5 Secretary)
6 1 Approved 101 2 Approved 101 7 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION: 8 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D., Secretary) 9 1 Approved 102 10 2 Approved 187 3 A. through 3 F. Approved 102 11 3 G. Deferred 102
12 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 189
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION March 24, 1998 6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:54 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now we'll go to the
4 agenda, the State Board of Administration.
5 MR. HERNDON: Item number 1 is the approval
6 of the minutes of the meeting held on
7 March the 10th, 1998.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the minutes.
9 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, they're adopted.
12 MR. HERNDON: Item number 2 is approval of
13 fiscal sufficiency of not exceeding 300 million
14 dollars of Department of Environmental
15 Protection Preservation 2000 revenue bonds.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 2.
17 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. HERNDON: Item number 3 is approval of
21 fiscal sufficiency not exceeding 2.785 million
22 dollars for the State of Florida
23 Board of Regents, University of South Florida
24 housing facility revenue bonds.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 3.
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION March 24, 1998 7
1 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, it's approved.
4 MR. HERNDON: And Item Number 4 is a report
5 of the Executive Director for the month of
6 February 1998.
7 And I might note, just for the record,
8 Governor, and members of the Board, that this is
9 the first month that the Board has gone over
10 100 billion dollars under management. It's
11 quite a noteworthy achievement. We're very
12 pleased.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move Item 4. And
14 I might also comment that Florida, I believe,
15 led the nation in return this past year --
16 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
17 MR. HERNDON: That's right.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- in investment --
19 MR. HERNDON: We're very --
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- fund.
21 MR. HERNDON: -- proud of that. Thank you.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You ought to be,
23 Tom. Well done.
24 MR. HERNDON: Thank you.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Terrific.
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION March 24, 1998 8
1 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
2 And that's 100 billion in total assets?
3 MR. HERNDON: That's correct. A hundred
4 billion dollars in total assets.
5 TREASURER NELSON: My goodness. We were
6 the fourth largest pension fund. What are we
7 now?
8 MR. HERNDON: We're probably still right in
9 that ballpark. California -- the two California
10 funds and New York common fund are also --
11 we're -- they were ahead of us by a substantial
12 margin, but we're catching them.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, you know, the
14 return last year was, what, 21.5?
15 MR. HERNDON: Twenty-one point
16 five percent, that's right. Very nice.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Twenty-one point five.
18 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
19 Thank you very much.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Terrific. Thank you.
21 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
22 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE March 24, 1998 9
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Division of
2 Bond Finance.
3 MR. WATKINS: Good morning.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
5 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 1 is approval of
6 the minutes of the February 24th meeting.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, they're approved.
11 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is a resolution
12 authorizing the competitive sale of 300 million
13 dollars in Preservation 2000 revenue bonds.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, that's approved.
19 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is a resolution
20 authorizing the competitive sale of up to
21 two million seven hundred and eighty-five
22 thousand in housing facility revenue bonds for
23 the new college campus.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE March 24, 1998 10
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
4 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 4 is a report of
5 award of three hundred one million seven hundred
6 five thousand in education capital outlay
7 bonds. The bonds were sold at competitive sale
8 and awarded to the low bidder at a true interest
9 cost rate of 4.96 percent.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11 And like the rate.
12 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MR. WATKINS: Item number 5 is a report of
17 award on the sale -- competitive sale of two
18 hundred thirty-three million six hundred
19 fifteen thousand in turnpike revenue bonds. The
20 bonds were awarded to the low bidder at a true
21 interest cost rate of 5.13 percent.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, that's approved.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE March 24, 1998 11
1 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
2 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
3 concluded.)
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DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS March 24, 1998 12
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Veterans' Affairs.
2 MR. RAINWATER: Good morning again. The
3 Florida Department of Veterans' Affairs has one
4 agenda item.
5 We have submitted for the record the report
6 of our activities for quarter two, fiscal year
7 97-98. We request approval.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MR. RAINWATER: Thank you, sir.
14 (The Department of Veterans' Affairs Agenda
15 was concluded.)
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ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT March 24, 1998 13
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: St. Johns
2 Water Management District.
3 No. We've got -- yeah, we'll take it.
4 MR. DEAN: Good morning. Henry Dean with
5 the St. Johns River Water Management District.
6 We have three items for action today.
7 I will tell you, I've had several
8 individuals indicate that there is probably a
9 sentiment that this item should be postponed
10 until the policy, Governor, comes back for
11 consideration. And I certainly understand that
12 reasoning, and certainly would not stand here
13 and object to that if that's the wish of this
14 Board.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on
17 the minutes first, Governor.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on
20 the minutes. We haven't done that.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll make a motion
22 on the minutes.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second that.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT March 24, 1998 14
1 Without objection, the minutes are
2 accepted.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And I'll
4 move to postpone Items 2, 3, and 4 to a future
5 date.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second it.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, motion to postpone is
9 granted.
10 MR. DEAN: Governor, could I just quickly
11 say really for the record that this has been a
12 lengthy process. But the applicant, if he has
13 any frustration, should aim those frustrations
14 at me, and not the Cabinet.
15 I say that because I don't think these
16 items would have been subject to the moratorium
17 had we had better staff communication -- had I
18 had better staff communication a year ago
19 February with the Department. I think these
20 would have been included as exempted from the
21 moratorium.
22 So this has put you and the Cabinet members
23 in a difficult position, which I probably should
24 take responsibility for. So I wanted to say
25 that on the record.
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ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT March 24, 1998 15
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
2 (The St. Johns River Water Management
3 District Agenda was concluded.)
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 16
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
2 Education.
3 DR. BEDFORD: Good morning,
4 Governor Chiles, Commissioner Brogan, members of
5 the State Board of Education.
6 Item 1, minutes of the meetings held --
7 meeting held February 10th, 1998.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, minutes are approved.
12 DR. BEDFORD: Item 2, contract for the
13 Certification Examination for Florida Educators.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, that's approved.
18 DR. BEDFORD: Item 3, Florida Education and
19 Employment Council for Women and Girls annual
20 report. I wish at this time to introduce to you
21 Dr. Janie Greenleaf, Chairwoman of the Florida
22 Education Employment Council for Women and
23 Girls.
24 DR. GREENLEAF: Good morning to the
25 Governor --
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 17
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
2 DR. GREENLEAF: -- Commissioner Brogan, and
3 other distinguished Cabinet members and guests.
4 It is, indeed, an honor to be able to be with
5 you this morning, and to present to you our
6 annual report.
7 We'd like to take a moment to express our
8 appreciation for the support that we have
9 received from Commissioner Brogan; from
10 Joe Stephens, Division of Vocational Work Force
11 Development; Barbara Gershmann, Vocational
12 Educational Gender Equity Administrator.
13 For the past eight years, the Council has
14 worked to obtain educational and occupational
15 equity for women so that they, especially those
16 who are heads of households, may become
17 economically self-sufficient.
18 To this end, the Council publishes an
19 annual report based on studies regarding
20 critical issues facing women in this great state
21 of Florida.
22 To present this year's study, I'd like to
23 introduce Colonel Ronald Joe, currently at
24 Florida A&M University, who has chaired the
25 Council's Program of Works. This is the
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 18
1 committee that sets the operational agenda.
2 Colonel Joe.
3 COLONEL JOE: Good morning,
4 Governor Chiles, members of the --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
6 COLONEL JOE: -- Cabinet -- other
7 distinguished members of the Cabinet.
8 On behalf of the Council members, it is an
9 honor to present to you the 1997 annual report
10 of the Florida Education and Employment Council
11 for Women and Girls.
12 It is titled: Two Generational Approach to
13 Child Care, Investing in Florida's Workers, and
14 Their Children; Issues, Implications, and
15 Recommendations for Preschool and School Age
16 Child Care.
17 This report is the second of a two-part,
18 two-year report, and it builds on our 1996
19 annual report, which examined the implications
20 of welfare reform and work force development for
21 Florida's women and children.
22 As the Council studied this report, as we
23 studied amongst ourselves throughout the state,
24 as we held public hearings in different parts of
25 the state, one issue constantly stuck out as
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 19
1 important. That issue was child care.
2 In view of the very diverse membership of
3 the Council, we feel that the success -- and
4 this report points out that the success -- of
5 welfare reform and work force development
6 depends on three key issues: One is affordable;
7 two is accessible; and three is quality child
8 care.
9 In addition to researching the child care
10 needs of former welfare recipients entering into
11 the work force, the report also examines the
12 needs for working poor families and individuals.
13 Just a few statistics that this report
14 provides. Poor families, which use paid child
15 care, pay, in many instances, greater than
16 25 percent of their income for child care, as
17 compared to 7 percent of income for nonpoor
18 families. And that's regardless of the quality
19 of child care.
20 For those working at $6 to $8 per hour,
21 quality child care can cost as much as
22 50 percent of their income for poor families,
23 and that's their gross income.
24 Approximately 39,000 children from birth to
25 year five, where their parents are employed in
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 20
1 low wage jobs, cannot be served in subsidized
2 child care.
3 This report indicates, and we want to
4 emphasize, that it takes a high paying job for
5 parents to be able to afford child care, between
6 $7.50 and $10 an hour for a single parent with
7 two children to afford it.
8 We say, therefore, that if this report is
9 to make its mark, and if this Council is to be
10 heard, we again return to those three key
11 things: Affordable, accessible, and quality
12 care.
13 What are some of the issues around -- that
14 surround first affordable care? There must be a
15 living wage. If the parent cannot have a living
16 wage, the parent cannot afford child care and
17 will be driven back on to welfare because they
18 will not be able to retain the job.
19 The training that is necessary for the
20 parent or single parent to be able to move from
21 welfare to the -- to the work force is
22 absolutely essential, and will not be possible
23 without adequate child care.
24 Because high wage, nontraditional jobs
25 often require weekend and night and odd-hour
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 21
1 works, child care is all the more critical to
2 ensure retention.
3 Accessibility issues. Child care must be
4 available. There are waiting lists.
5 Approximately 53,000 students -- 53,000 children
6 are involved or need appropriate child care.
7 Forty thousand children between the age of birth
8 and age five are currently not being served by
9 adequate child care in Florida.
10 Infant child care is less available and is
11 more expensive since the wages requirements are
12 that mothers go to work after three months,
13 three months after they have delivered their
14 children.
15 High wage, nontraditional jobs, and job
16 trainings again require weekend and off-hour
17 training.
18 And then finally, again, the quality issue
19 for child care. The quality issue involves
20 developmental child care, because this report
21 says that child care is education. It is an
22 intervention strategy for poor children.
23 We look at this report -- in this report at
24 bringing development research. A sort of a soft
25 issue, but I would refer you to take a look at
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 22
1 it because it says to us that this is an
2 investment in our youth.
3 And that if we make this investment at this
4 early stage of the child's development, the
5 possib-- the probability of adverse social
6 behavior that could result later on in school
7 dropout and possible incarceration is
8 significantly reduced.
9 We indicate on page 40 that $1 invested now
10 at this early period reveals a saving of in
11 excess of $7 in future reparations for each of
12 our children.
13 Finally, this year's study says that if
14 women, men, and families who are former welfare
15 recipients, or working poor, need to move to
16 work and gain economic self-sufficiency, they
17 must have access to affordable, quality child
18 care.
19 Thank you. And subject to your questions,
20 that completes my report.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Colonel Joe, we thank you
22 for that study. I hope that it'll get wide
23 distribution. It's imperative -- the facts are
24 unassailable.
25 COLONEL JOE: Yes, sir.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 23
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: We just have to have more
2 people understand that so we can get the
3 resources.
4 I think, as you know, we're providing
5 funding for child care for WAGES recipients.
6 COLONEL JOE: That's right.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: We're seeking additional
8 funding for working poor this year. That's
9 critical that we -- that we get a major
10 appropriation for that.
11 I was -- the appropriation that I put in my
12 budget would have provided care for about
13 twenty-five or twenty-six thousand additional
14 kids. As you say, that still --
15 COLONEL JOE: Yes, sir.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- would leave some
17 uncovered.
18 COLONEL JOE: Yes, sir.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: But I hope we can make
20 that kind of a move this year.
21 COLONEL JOE: Yes, sir.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, Governor, I
23 would like to thank Colonel Joe and
24 Dr. Greenleaf and all the members of the Council
25 for their hard work again this year.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 24
1 As I told them in my office, this -- and
2 you're right, Governor, this document is not
3 only appropriate, it's very timely upon its
4 arrival, and hopefully will get broad
5 distribution among members of the legislation --
6 Legislature.
7 And we, again, appreciate everything that
8 you do.
9 And I don't know if -- I think this is
10 FYI. I don't think we need to move to accept
11 it. But if we do, I would make that motion,
12 Governor.
13 And thank you, again, Colonel Joe,
14 Dr. Greenleaf.
15 DR. BEDFORD: Item 4 is the Readiness for
16 College Report, 1996-97.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask a couple of
23 questions about that, Governor?
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
25 TREASURER NELSON: I -- I certainly agree
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 25
1 with the approval. But I was just struck by
2 some of the figures here.
3 What I see is -- now, this is Item 4 --
4 DR. BEDFORD: Yes, it is.
5 TREASURER NELSON: -- on the college
6 report.
7 DR. BEDFORD: Yes, sir.
8 TREASURER NELSON: All right. We -- the
9 first thing that I was struck, if you look at
10 the difference between universities and
11 community colleges where the percent that passed
12 all subjects of those going into universities
13 was 90.3 percent, and the community colleges was
14 41.7 percent.
15 DR. BEDFORD: That is correct.
16 TREASURER NELSON: So you -- you've
17 basically -- when you get to the overall
18 percentages, which for this last year, 96-97, is
19 61.4 percent --
20 DR. BEDFORD: Yes, sir.
21 TREASURER NELSON: -- that's really
22 reflecting that you've got a very low percentage
23 in -- going into community colleges.
24 DR. BEDFORD: Yes. I think that -- and
25 we're studying some of this data more. What
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 26
1 we're finding in a recent report I read said
2 that about 43 percent of the student body that's
3 in high school now are really taking college
4 ready type courses. And about 63 percent of the
5 kids are going on to community college or
6 university.
7 So you have a -- you have a gap between the
8 students that are taking the courses that
9 prepare them, and those that are actually
10 prepared.
11 Recent legislation, which requires college
12 ready diploma; which increases the graduation
13 requirement; the Sunshine State Standards; and
14 the F-CAT, I believe, will begin to take care of
15 this difference. But there still is a wide
16 discrepancy between the students preparing to go
17 on to secondary ed, and the students that
18 actually go on to secondary ed.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well -- and, of course,
20 we -- our colleges require a very high STAT
21 score, all kind of test scores. Our community
22 colleges have to accept a student that's
23 graduated from a public school. So you're going
24 to see a difference there.
25 DR. BEDFORD: Right.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: And as we make that
2 graduation mean more, we'll see --
3 TREASURER NELSON: Now, as a matter of
4 policy, what I would like to explore in the
5 future is, of the group that are going into the
6 community college, to what degree are there
7 offerings of an education in a trade, and how
8 does that all mix up in the students that are
9 going into the community college?
10 We can save that for a later day, but I'd
11 like to have that discussion if you'll bring it
12 back.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I think -- your point
14 is very valid, and it goes back to something Bob
15 said. We're not trying to have eighth graders
16 make up their mind about what they want to do
17 for a living in eighth grade.
18 But a big part of our problem is is that
19 still too many students are wandering through
20 the four years of their college career without
21 ever determining if, in fact, they want to get
22 serious about a trade, vocational technical
23 education, even if that means go right to work,
24 advanced vocational technical school, community
25 college, to zero in on that trade or profession;
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1 or whether they want to go on to four-year
2 university.
3 The problem is is that they can graduate
4 with their 24 credits, they can graduate with
5 having passed the high school competency test,
6 they can have graduated with now their 2.0.
7 But we are still seeing too many students
8 who are just doing those things, and haven't a
9 clue; and, worse, have not really prepared for
10 what they do want to do after high school,
11 whether it's go to work or go to the military or
12 go to postsecondary education.
13 And that's one of the problems that Bob
14 alluded to that we are still seeing curriculum
15 allowances out there that will virtually allow
16 students to end up their four years of
17 high school not only not knowing -- maybe a lot
18 of us didn't know when we graduated from
19 high school -- but, worse, not prepared for
20 whatever they do decide they're going to do
21 next.
22 And that creates some of those glaring
23 disparities that I think we see there.
24 TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now, I --
25 just a final question here.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 29
1 In the last six years, when you lump
2 everything together, community colleges and
3 universities, the total percent of those passing
4 all subjects kept going down, until this last
5 year, it bumped up.
6 And -- and I understand that there was some
7 new way of calculating that. What was that, and
8 what would have been the results under the old
9 way of calculating it? Would it have still gone
10 down?
11 DR. BEDFORD: Taylor.
12 MR. CULLAR: Yes.
13 I'll attempt to answer that. It's a --
14 TREASURER NELSON: Well, just --
15 MR. CULLAR: -- complicated --
16 TREASURER NELSON: -- quickly. I don't
17 want a long dissertation. Just quickly.
18 MR. CULLAR: But the calculations were done
19 across-the-board last year for those who were
20 indicated as having taken the test by the -- the
21 colleges and universities.
22 We found after the fact that some of the
23 people who were identified as test takers did
24 not have scores recorded. And those were
25 counted as failures.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 30
1 This year we calculated the math test
2 takers separately, the reading test takers
3 separately, and the writing test takers
4 separately to calculate each of those three
5 passing scores. And then if they had scores in
6 all three areas, we looked at that to see if
7 they passed all three areas.
8 And that accounted for a tremendous change
9 in the way that the pass rate came out.
10 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
11 room.)
12 MR. CULLAR: In addition to that, we
13 cleaned up the data this year a lot more than we
14 did last year. Some of the SAT scores had not
15 been recorded that should have been, and we were
16 able to do that at the State level, to clean
17 that up.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Now, for us as
19 policymakers on this Board to be able to
20 evaluate in seeing what the trend line is, had
21 you calculated it under the old way, what would
22 be the percentage?
23 MR. CULLAR: We don't know, because of the
24 data cleanup. But we do know that 4 percent of
25 the 7 percent was in the way we calculated it
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 31
1 last year, compared to the way we calculated it
2 this year.
3 TREASURER NELSON: Well, would it have been
4 lower, or would it have been higher?
5 MR. CULLAR: It calculated higher this
6 year.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. So it's hard for
8 us really to judge to see what the trend is when
9 it bumps from fifty-four one to sixty-four--
10 sixty-one four.
11 MR. CULLAR: That is correct.
12 TREASURER NELSON: That's hard for us to
13 really judge that that's a trend; is that --
14 MR. CULLAR: That's correct.
15 TREASURER NELSON: -- what you're saying?
16 MR. CULLAR: That's correct.
17 DR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, could I --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- along the same
21 line, looking at the school districts and the
22 huge variance between the top performing school
23 district and the bottom performing, although
24 basically a straight line relationship between
25 the top and bottom, what can be done or should
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1 be done, or is being done to try to solve that
2 maldistribution?
3 DR. BEDFORD: I -- I think the Governor
4 would agree with me, I could probably bore you
5 to death for about two-and-a-half hours with --
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We don't need that.
7 But --
8 DR. BEDFORD: -- a report that I did
9 yesterday.
10 We have -- we have some reporting that we
11 can do on the Sunshine State Standards and the
12 F-CAT and the activities that are going on in
13 the local districts.
14 Districts like the one you're thinking
15 about is being targeted for an extreme amount of
16 technical assistance, in-service education, help
17 from the Department on what they can do to work
18 with the boys and girls that attend their
19 schools so that these scores do start
20 improving.
21 And for the Department, I think the -- the
22 major role change that has happened in the
23 Department during my years is that we are now a
24 department of technical assistance, and we are a
25 department that goes out and finds these
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1 individual schools in these districts that need
2 a tremendous boost, help them financially, help
3 them with mentoring services, help them by
4 matching them up with schools that are similar
5 that are doing very well.
6 And in general, becoming a full partner
7 with those districts and those schools so that
8 we share some of that responsibility for the
9 improvement that's necessary.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Bob, if I could give
11 you one -- one example. Bob's talking about
12 technical assistance, et cetera, and that's
13 important, and we are attempting to do more of
14 that. But there's also I think some
15 line-in-the-sand things that have been done and
16 need to be done.
17 One is a piece of legislation that said
18 that a youngster cannot be scheduled into a
19 level 1 course during their high school years,
20 level 1 meaning functional remedial course work,
21 without the sign-off of mother and father.
22 The idea here is is that young people, and
23 their families, need to know what these courses
24 are, and they need to understand that if largely
25 amassed, a youngster who is capable of learning
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1 more, who is assigned a predominance of level 1
2 courses throughout their four years, is going to
3 graduate, and no doubt have the great potential
4 to become one of those students that you see in
5 that lower percentage figure.
6 And so this requirement says, it may be
7 appropriate for a student to take a level 1
8 course, but that that decision cannot be made by
9 the student and the guidance counselor alone.
10 The parent must know and understand what that
11 level course means, and must sign off before
12 that student can take it.
13 If they acknowledge that they understand it
14 and accept it, it's one thing. But I think we
15 have -- we have allowed fifteen year olds to
16 make too many curriculum and scheduling
17 decisions for themselves over the years, and I
18 think we're seeing the fruits of that. I think
19 we've got to recognize --
20 I had a guidance counselor tell me, but,
21 Commissioner, I can't make them take the courses
22 that they ought to be taking. But we can do a
23 much better job of urging them into them, and of
24 seeing to it that their parents become more
25 actively involved in setting up those schedules
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION March 24, 1998 35
1 so everyone will know what that schedule is
2 going to bring during that four-year period of
3 time.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I would like
5 to follow up, if I could, Robert, with a further
6 discussion on this particular subject.
7 DR. BEDFORD: Yes.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thanks.
9 DR. BEDFORD: One of the things we are
10 doing, and, seriously, the presentation I made
11 yesterday, we are going to make to the Aides so
12 that they have a complete understanding of what
13 we're doing in the area of Sunshine State
14 Standards, F-CAT, accountability, and preparing
15 teachers to work in our schools. And I think
16 that would be very valuable, and I think they'll
17 share some information with you.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I hope they
19 will. But I'd like to see it myself.
20 DR. BEDFORD: You're welcome to come --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
22 DR. BEDFORD: -- sir. I would be
23 privileged.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
25 DR. BEDFORD: You will be bored.
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1 Item 5.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It's kind of like
3 your golf game and my golf game.
4 DR. BEDFORD: Not in front of all these
5 people, sir. I --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Critically low
7 performing golf.
8 DR. BEDFORD: Item 5. Five-year statewide
9 emergency shelter plan.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 DR. BEDFORD: Thank you, sir.
15 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
16 concluded.)
17 *
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Marine Fisheries.
2 DR. NELSON: Good morning, Governor,
3 members of the Cabinet.
4 The single item that we have before you
5 today deals with gear specifications. There are
6 a number of repeals of rules in this rule that
7 deal with rules -- previous rules of the
8 Commission that have been made obsolete by the
9 constitutional amendment dealing with nets.
10 But the issue of perhaps the most
11 relevance, the most concern before you today
12 deals with the mesh size specification. This
13 rule was undertaken in response to the
14 legislative charge we have to interpret and
15 implement rules that would make the
16 constitutional provisions workable in this
17 state.
18 This rule specifies that a 2-inch maximum
19 mesh size be used in any net under 500 square
20 feet, or less, in the waters of the state. It
21 was based -- the 2-inch mesh size was based on
22 an extensive review of the historical use of
23 nets in Florida, what size meshes were used for
24 what purposes, be it seining, or be it gilling;
25 as well as a review of the information provided
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1 to us by the Florida Marine Research Institute
2 and their scientists who are --
3 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
4 DR. NELSON: -- use nets around the year,
5 thousands of sets all over the state to do
6 independent sampling to give us an idea of what
7 the status of our fish stocks are.
8 This rule was the subject of an
9 administrative rule challenge. The
10 Administrative Hearing Officer took two days of
11 testimony on this rule, hearing both from the --
12 the opponents of this rule, as well as from the
13 Commission scientists, scientists from the
14 Florida Marine Research Institute.
15 There are a number of facts that are
16 opinion, I think that are relevant to what we're
17 discussing here today. And her opinion was
18 affirmed that this rule was a lawful exercise of
19 the Commission's authority, and was supported by
20 the facts and information, the best available
21 facts and information.
22 One argument that was presented there --
23 you may hear again today -- was that the
24 constitutional amendment establishes a
25 limitation on nets, not a ban.
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1 The Commission agrees with this. But there
2 are two tests within the Constitution: One is
3 that no net may be greater than 500 square
4 feet. The other is that no gill or entangling
5 nets may be used.
6 The Hearing Officer agreed with us in our
7 interpretation of that, that there is --
8 regardless of size, there is an absolute ban on
9 the use of nets for gilling and entangling fish
10 as a means of harvest.
11 The second issue that was before --
12 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
13 DR. NELSON: -- probably the most important
14 issue was the issue of will the requirement of
15 using 2-inch mesh allow for the killing of an
16 inordinate number of small fish.
17 Every net in the water will gill something,
18 inadvertently or advertently. Fish and other
19 animals will become entangled. This is a
20 by-product of every form of fishing that we had
21 previously in this state, and that we still
22 have. Our allowable and legal shrimp trawls
23 always have a bycatch.
24 That's one of the Commission's concern is
25 when we are -- knowing that it's impossible to
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1 avoid all waste, is try to construct rules that
2 minimize the waste that would be accompanied
3 with the use of a specific gear.
4 Expert testimony before the Hearing Officer
5 indicated that, in fact, the smaller mesh size
6 that would be required in a net, the less
7 bycatch there would be, and the less undersized
8 fish there would be.
9 The -- the Commission initially considered
10 a recommendation for a one-and-three-quarter
11 inch maximum in the seines. That
12 recommendation, in fact, was supported by the
13 work at the Institute and other information that
14 would have even reduced the bycatch of small
15 fish mesh.
16 The Commission determined though that the
17 disadvantages of using smaller and smaller mesh
18 were, one, that it became harder to pull through
19 the water, harder to deploy, and harder to fish
20 effectively. And they essentially compromised
21 by setting on the 2-inch limit to the size of
22 the fish in the nets.
23 The Hearing Officer heard this testimony,
24 concluded that any inadvertent bycatch in these
25 nets would be minimal. This was based on the
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1 testimony before her, videos of the fishing
2 operations utilizing these nets, testimony from
3 the Commission staff, and other scientists from
4 the Florida Marine Research Institute.
5 A third issue was whether these nets could
6 be argued to be a legal seine if a very small
7 portion of 2-inch mesh net -- literally maybe
8 1 percent of the net -- of 2-inch mesh could be
9 sewn into a piece of net that was predominantly
10 the same size of meshes as had previously and
11 historically been used to gill fish in the
12 targeted gill net fishery in this state.
13 And, again, the testimony before the
14 Hearing Officer from both sides persuaded her
15 that, in fact, the intent of what those who are
16 opposing this rule and what they were asking
17 for, their intent was to use a small gill net, a
18 500 square foot gill net, for the purpose of
19 capturing fish by gilling them, and that that
20 was not consistent with the provisions in the
21 Constitution.
22 There are -- as I said, this
23 Hearing Officer found in our favor. That
24 decision was appealed to the District Court of
25 Appeals.
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1 They also asked for a stay on the
2 furtherance of our rulemaking pending the
3 disposition of that appeal. The District Court
4 of Appeals promptly denied that stay.
5 There are some external legal issues
6 involving a Circuit Court case going on before
7 Judge McClure that are peripherally related to
8 this issue.
9 And I would ask that Assistant General --
10 Assistant Attorney General, Jon Glogau, give you
11 a brief status update on where we are legally in
12 terms of this rule, the external legal issues,
13 and respond to any questions you might have on
14 that issue.
15 We then have several proponents and
16 opponents. We've set aside 10 minutes a side,
17 exclusive of questions, for that testimony. So
18 it --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let me just ask you:
20 You've said that there are people that say even
21 with a 2-inch net, you will still gill some
22 fish, or you will still have a bycatch, and that
23 is -- is -- should be wrong.
24 One of the things that we've got to have
25 out there is clarity. There's got to be some
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1 understanding of what is something that you can
2 do.
3 If a 2-inch net is used, regardless of
4 whether there is bycatch or not, is that legal,
5 and will a fisherman using that net not be
6 arrested and not be charged if -- regardless of
7 whether there is some gilling or some bycatch if
8 he is using the 2-inch net?
9 DR. NELSON: Yes. That's -- that's a very
10 good question, Governor.
11 There has been confusion, due to the lack
12 of our ability to get a rule forward that
13 explains this. The Legislature has clearly
14 delegated to the Commission exclusive authority
15 to implement the Constitution.
16 This rule would -- in place would
17 essentially establish, pursuant to that
18 authority, and pursuant to our interpretation of
19 the Constitution, a bright line that everyone
20 would understand. If you were using a net of
21 2 inches mesh or less, and that net is
22 500 square feet or less, it is a legal piece of
23 gear in the water.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. If you're
25 within the 500 feet, or -- I guess it's up to
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1 500 feet, and you have 2 inches, regardless of
2 what your catch or your bycatch is, you're not
3 going to be arrested, you're not going to be
4 charged, you're not going to be ticketed by
5 doing something illegal, is that --
6 DR. NELSON: That is correct, sir. If you
7 have 2 inches or less, if you have a sheepshead
8 that's inadvertently -- has its fins tangled in
9 the net, it's a legal net, it's legal to use,
10 and that is the only interpretation the
11 Commission sees of this.
12 Absolutely. If you have greater than
13 500 square feet, you're illegal; if you're using
14 greater than 2 inch mesh, you're illegal.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
16 DR. NELSON: If it's 2 inches or less,
17 500 square feet or less, it's a clear, bright
18 line that will allow everyone out there to know
19 what is and what is not permissive under --
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
21 DR. NELSON: -- the Constitution.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- could I ask a --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- question just for
25 my understanding. Back to the bycatch issue and
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1 back to your example of a sheepshead.
2 What is or is not allowable regarding any
3 and all bycatch in that net? What can that
4 bycatch be used for, if anything; and if not
5 usable, what must occur with that bycatch?
6 I'm trying to further expand on the
7 Governor's question regarding --
8 DR. NELSON: I understand.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- clarity on this.
10 DR. NELSON: To the extent that bycatch
11 consists of undersized fish, or fish that have
12 that minimum size limits, or a fish taken out of
13 season, that bycatch must be discarded, it can't
14 enter markets.
15 To the extent it consists of menhaden or
16 other bait type fishes for which there are no
17 regulations, it could be utilized, if there's an
18 available market, as bait for crab traps and
19 other things.
20 The Commission clearly believes that using
21 these mesh sizes, fishing for fish that are
22 large enough to have a market and be legally
23 sold, the bycatch is going to be minimal.
24 If one individual wished to take one of
25 these mesh sizes and pour it through a very
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1 small tidal creek filled with small fish, they
2 would catch mostly small fish.
3 But we don't believe that behavior
4 ultimately will make much sense if someone is
5 out there trying to make a living. There
6 have -- they have to target fish that have a
7 market and that can be sold.
8 If -- and if you would like, Governor, I
9 can ask Jon Glogau to give you an update on the
10 legal issues?
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
12 DR. NELSON: Jon?
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
14 MR. GLOGAU: Governor, members of the
15 Cabinet, this rule was first proposed back in
16 November of 1996. We finished the rule
17 challenge, and an order was issued finding that
18 the rule was valid under the Commission's
19 implementing statutes.
20 The petitioners have filed for a stay in
21 the District Court of Appeals, which was
22 denied.
23 They've also sought a stay from the
24 Administrative Law Judge. She has not yet ruled
25 on that. However, we've taken the position that
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1 she lacks authority to issue such a stay, and
2 even if she did have authority, that it,
3 in fact, is inconsistent with the provisions --
4 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
5 room.)
6 MR. GLOGAU: -- of the Administrative
7 Procedures Act.
8 Under the Administrative Procedures Act,
9 the filing of a rule challenge, even if the rule
10 challenge hearing had not been completed, does
11 not prevent this Cabinet from adopting the rule.
12 So now that we have a -- a -- an order from
13 the Hearing Officer, or Administrative Law Judge
14 indicating that the rule is valid, there is
15 certainly nothing preventing this Cabinet from a
16 legal standpoint from adopting -- or approving
17 the rule so that it can then be filed with the
18 Secretary of State for final adoption.
19 The petitioners in the rule challenge
20 case -- or two of them, Mr. Crum and
21 Mr. Pringle, have filed a lawsuit -- or two
22 lawsuits, but one in particular in Circuit Court
23 before Judge McClure.
24 The issue in that case, as they plead it,
25 is they are asking for a declaration that the
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1 net described by Dr. Nelson, which is a large
2 mesh net with a small piece of 2-inch net sewn
3 into it, is a legal net under the Constitution,
4 laws, and rules of the state of Florida.
5 The rules that they rely on in that case
6 are the very rules that are being repealed and
7 replaced by the 2-inch mesh limitation that was
8 the subject of the rule challenge.
9 So I submit that if you go forward and
10 allow this rule to become law -- or to become a
11 valid rule, it will lessen the -- the issues.
12 It will narrow the issues in the litigation and
13 give the fishermen a clear -- it won't make the
14 litigation go away. There are other issues in
15 that litigation.
16 But with respect to the 2-inch mesh size,
17 will narrow the issues in that litigation, which
18 is something the Commission -- and I think the
19 Cabinet, probably is -- would be a good thing.
20 And I'll -- but there is no legal
21 impediment at this point to your acting. And
22 your action would be entirely consistent, in our
23 opinion, with the Administrative Procedures Act.
24 And I'd gladly answer any questions.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Are there questions?
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Just one, Governor.
2 And I just want to understand you
3 correctly, Counselor. The status today is on
4 appeal. You question whether that appeal is --
5 is even possible or not. Is that correct?
6 MR. GLOGAU: No, that's not. It -- the
7 order of the Hearing Officer is on appeal. They
8 filed a notice of appeal properly in the
9 District Court of Appeals. And they have a
10 right to prosecute that appeal.
11 The question was whether or not this
12 Cabinet's action should be stayed, or can be
13 stayed, during the pendency of that appeal.
14 Now, the First DCA has already denied that
15 stay. I believe the Hearing Officer or
16 Administrative Law Judge is without authority to
17 stay this Court's -- the Cabinet's action.
18 That's -- that's what I believe.
19 But also with respect to waiting during the
20 pendency of the appeal for the Cabinet to act,
21 first of all, let me say that it has been the
22 policy of the Marine Fisheries Commission, and
23 this Cabinet has, on many occasions, gone
24 forward with rules in the Marine Fisheries
25 Commission in this very situation, when an
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1 appeal is pending.
2 And so there really is no legal impediment
3 to going forward.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: In following up then,
5 just to close the question. Did I also further
6 understand you to say that if we pass the rule
7 today, it's your position that it would provide
8 greater clarity on this entire issue? And that
9 if someone did then want to further challenge
10 the rule, there would be something clear to
11 challenge?
12 MR. GLOGAU: Well, yes, it will provide
13 clarity. But what I was suggesting was that it
14 will provide clarity to the people out there in
15 the field, either the Marine Patrol or the
16 fishermen, as to what they can legally do.
17 I would also like -- just like to add that
18 with respect to appealing a -- an order like
19 that of the Hearing Officer is a very difficult
20 hurdle to get over, to have an order like that
21 overturned. Because the facts that are found in
22 that order, that support that order, can only be
23 overturned if the Court finds there is no
24 competent substantial evidence to support it.
25 And I submit that that is an extremely high
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1 hurdle to get over.
2 So if the likelihood of success is going to
3 enter into your -- your decision as to whether
4 to go forward today, I suggest that the
5 likelihood of their success is very small at
6 this point.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now, tell me what the --
8 this is the rule. Now, what is the case that is
9 in -- in Judge McClure's court now?
10 MR. GLOGAU: The case before Judge McClure
11 has several issues in it. The one that's
12 relevant to this consideration is that the
13 plaintiffs in that case have suggest-- have
14 asked the Court for a declaration that a net
15 that has any size 2-inch mesh panel in it, and
16 the rest of the net being made of any size mesh
17 that they decide they want to use, is, as a
18 matter of law, a legal seine.
19 And the basis for that declaration, as they
20 plead it, is at least in part the currently
21 existing rules of the Marine Fisheries
22 Commission, which the Commission interprets as
23 being obsolete rule since the passage of the
24 constitutional amendment.
25 The rule that's before you today, the
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1 package of rules that's before you today,
2 repeals the provisions of the administrative
3 code that the fishermen rely upon in that case
4 to say that the net is legal, and put in place a
5 bright line 2-inch mesh requirement.
6 And so to the extent that that is an issue
7 in that case, the adoption of this rule by the
8 Secretary of State, and finally -- and 20 days
9 after that, when it becomes final -- you know, a
10 final rule, removes that issue, in our opinion,
11 from the litigation.
12 And so it narrows the issues before the
13 Court and makes -- makes the litigation,
14 you know, easier to deal with. And -- and, as I
15 said, gives everyone a bright line test as to
16 what's legal out there on the water, which
17 benefits both the fishermen and the
18 Marine Patrol.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
20 Further question?
21 Thank you.
22 DR. NELSON: We then have 10 minutes for
23 opponents of the rule beginning with
24 Mr. Ron Mowrey.
25 MR. MOWREY: Good morning, Governor, and
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1 Cabinet. Thank you for the opportunity to
2 appear before you.
3 My name is Ron Mowrey, and I am here asking
4 you to either postpone or not approve this
5 rule. I'm an attorney, I've been practicing
6 since 1969. I'm a former FBI agent, and I think
7 Mr. Hoover'd be proud of me today for standing
8 up for what I believe is right.
9 I represent literally tens of thousands of
10 people who are affected by this proposed rule.
11 I've also represented Wakulla County for
12 18 years, and I see the effect on small counties
13 of the continued effort to drive the small
14 fishermen out of the water. That's what that'll
15 do today.
16 You can think about everybody involved and
17 every -- in every part of this if you -- if you
18 look at what happens if fishermen -- we have
19 deck hands, we have people that -- running the
20 stores, the fish houses, the restaurants, the
21 waitresses, the dishwashers, the guy in the
22 truck, all those people are affected.
23 All these fishermen out here -- raise your
24 hand, fishermen. They're all here.
25 They all support the net limitation. We
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1 continue to hear net ban, net ban, net ban.
2 This is a net limitation amendment. Read it.
3 You have the material.
4 Resource is their future. Nobody cares
5 more about the resource than these people out
6 here.
7 They're also dependent upon, and look to
8 you, for equal treatment under the law. Their
9 right, as Chapter 370 says, to take a reasonable
10 amount of that resource each year to make a
11 living. A right they have.
12 We're talking about the small fishermen in
13 the 18 to 25 foot boat. The guy fishing in the
14 inshore/nearshore water, within the 3 miles.
15 Not anybody else. Those people who have always
16 used seine nets. Those traditional nets they
17 still use. Those nets that incidentally will
18 gill fish, because we know, everybody admits,
19 every net will gill fish.
20 In the Millender case, the Supreme Court
21 said it's critical, in any legislation,
22 rulemaking, to look at the commercial
23 feasibility of what you're going to end up
24 with.
25 I'm here to tell you, this rule will drive
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1 the fishermen out of the water. You can't use a
2 500 square foot net with 2 inch stretch mesh
3 throughout it, and catch fish. It will not
4 work. And again, we're only talking about the
5 little 500 square foot net.
6 You can look at literally what happens with
7 this 2 inch mesh. That's what's going to
8 happen. It's not going to catch big fish. It's
9 going to catch the small fish. It's going to
10 catch the small fish and destroy the resource.
11 The SPR -- let the -- the experts in the
12 state'll tell you -- the Spawning Potential
13 Ratio, the measurement of the return of the
14 abundance of the species, is going to -- it's --
15 it'll be met within the next five to
16 twelve months, not seven to nine years. Ask
17 them. That's exactly true.
18 So -- so why do we want to have a small
19 mesh net throughout? What's the purpose in
20 trying to do it? It's certainly not resource
21 based. There is no evidence to suggest from a
22 resource management standpoint we have to do
23 that. There is no testimony. The resource has
24 bounced back.
25 What do we attribute it to then? We
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1 attribute it to the reduction in the size of
2 nets, from tens of thousands of yards of nets,
3 down to two 500 square foot nets, within the
4 inshore/nearshore water. That's what -- that's
5 what it's all about.
6 Now, so what happens if you adopt this
7 rule? It'll have two horrible consequences,
8 both of which are very, very significant. One
9 is the fishermen who are struggling as they are,
10 using the net that exists, that's a legal net.
11 And I have -- we have memos that have gone to
12 the field from DEP, from Lieutenant --
13 Major Buckson and Colonel Mickey Watson, telling
14 us as late as -- as late as February 2nd, 1998,
15 use that net to encircle fish, that's not a
16 violation.
17 And it's not hurting the resource. So if
18 you go to the small 2-inch net, we can't catch
19 fish. It's not commercially feasible. The
20 Hearing Officer made that specific finding from
21 all the testimony she heard. It's not
22 commercially feasible, number one.
23 On the other hand, what's it do? It's
24 going to kill off the fish. So what's the
25 reason to do it? Where are we going, what's
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1 motivating doing this? If, in fact, that's what
2 it -- that's what it's going to do.
3 Fishermen don't have any way out. We don't
4 have any way out if you do this. You're going
5 to drive this way of living absolutely out of
6 existence. It's been coming, coming, coming.
7 And this case is set for trial
8 April the 7th and April the 8th before
9 Judge McClure. He's already heard extensive
10 testimony on other cases, he knows and
11 understands these issues.
12 The issue of whether, in fact, the net
13 that's now legal under current law is, in fact,
14 commercially reasonable, and is, in fact, and
15 should be authorized for these fishermen to
16 use.
17 He's going to hear testimony about resource
18 protection, and he's not going to hear anything
19 that suggests, adopt this from a resource
20 management standpoint. It's not going to
21 happen. Let the poor fishermen use the industry
22 standards that are there.
23 Now, I'm shocked to hear, let's do a bright
24 line rule. Let's make it all 2-inch. That'll
25 kill the fishermen. Tell commercial fishing in
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1 the inshore/nearshore waters good-bye, it's
2 gone.
3 There are days before the bill collectors,
4 months before the bankruptcy court. I know, I
5 do a lot of bankruptcy work. I've been
6 representing them for over 20 years in this
7 small county. Folks, it's reality.
8 But more importantly, if you adopt this
9 rule, they're suggesting that if you
10 inadvertently or otherwise gill a fish, they're
11 not going to arrest you. What are we going to
12 do, selectively enforce the law?
13 If you -- they left out the rest of the
14 definition of a seine net. It's a rectangular
15 net with a float line, lead line, and does not
16 gill fish. That's in the rule. That's the law
17 today.
18 So if it gills, they've got to arrest you.
19 And not only that, what are you going to catch?
20 Undersized fish. It's a violation of law. If
21 you get them when you're netting, don't return
22 them unharmed.
23 Lose your car, your boat, your nets, your
24 money, your cash.
25 There's no way out. It's wrong. That's
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1 not what the amendment stands for. And I
2 suggest to you, got to look, as the
3 Supreme Court has told us in the Millender case,
4 look at the amendment as a whole. What's
5 intended, what's its purpose?
6 It's to protect and preserve their
7 resource. These folks know above any of us, or
8 they won't be around, there won't be any fish
9 out there. But the resource is -- has come back
10 so rapidly that -- that there's absolutely no
11 basis.
12 We've used these same nets for years and
13 years and years. And since July 1st, '95, when
14 the amendment was adopted, they've used these
15 same very nets. And yet the resource is five,
16 six, seven years ahead of time in returning. So
17 think about it. Maybe it's what we've been
18 worried about all along.
19 Who really controls Marine Fisheries
20 Commission? Where's it going? What's next?
21 Got to look at what the Supreme Court said.
22 Commercially reasonable, look at what it's
23 intended to do.
24 It's not going to protect resource. It's
25 going to drive the fishermen out of the water.
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1 I suggest to you that Judge --
2 Judge McClure's case is very important. It's
3 very important. Yes, we've appealed that rule
4 challenge. Certainly that we -- we hoped to get
5 a stay so you wouldn't be here today having to
6 hear me make this argument.
7 And these fishermen, every case they file,
8 every case we file, at some point, never gets to
9 a substantive hearing. They all get appealed by
10 the State.
11 Now, and as we sit, we've appealed this
12 rule challenge. First appeal we've taken. And
13 what do we want to do? We want to go ahead and
14 adopt it, and say, well, go ahead with your
15 appeal.
16 What's the effect of that? The fishermen
17 are gone. They can't fund and finance and try
18 to pay me 25 cents on the dollar that they're
19 paying me, for another year when this is going
20 to put them out of business.
21 So what's it do to the resource? Don't
22 adopt this rule. Put it off till the appeals
23 are over.
24 What's it do to the resource? It doesn't
25 hurt the resource, it doesn't hurt the people,
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1 but it kills the fishermen.
2 That's the law. Please don't ignore that.
3 Do what's right. Don't adopt this rule. Defer
4 it until the courts can effectively handle this
5 and deal with it.
6 We can't continue to fight the State's
7 lawyers with unlimited budgets. It's just that
8 simple. Do what's right. Marine Fisheries is
9 not here to protect resource, it's just not in
10 the cards. And there's no evidence to support
11 it.
12 Thank you.
13 I'll be happy to answer any questions.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Questions?
15 MR. MOWREY: Yes, sir.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir. Don't
17 seem to be any.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. MOWREY: Okay.
20 DR. NELSON: With 2 minutes left in the
21 opponents' time, Mr. Ronald Fred Crum.
22 No. But Reverend Ray Pringle I guess will
23 finish --
24 MR. PRINGLE: Pastor Ray Pringle;
25 Jacksonville, Florida.
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1 Greetings to you honorable gentlemen on the
2 State Cabinet, and the Governor.
3 We just -- I'm up here to appeal for the
4 fishermen for a delay in this decision that you
5 have to make today until we can find its way
6 through the court system.
7 God many years ago formed this nation with
8 three great branches of government: Executive;
9 Legislative; and when they were oppressed, they
10 had an appeal division, and that's the Judicial.
11 Give these fishermen their day in court,
12 gentlemen. God have mercy. Do something like a
13 statesman instead of a politician.
14 I just want to read you here what a
15 politician is and a statesman.
16 A politician is one that's active in State
17 government conducting the business, a person
18 engaged in party politics as a profession. A
19 person principally interested in political
20 office for selfish or other short-sighted
21 reasons.
22 That's what a politician is.
23 Now, let me read you what a statesman is.
24 This is from the Collegiate Webster's
25 Dictionary, Tenth Edition.
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1 A statesman is one who exercises political
2 leadership wisely, and without narrow -- narrow
3 partisanship. One actively engaged in
4 conducting the business of government.
5 Both are engaged in actively conducting the
6 business of government. But one's for selfish
7 interests, and narrow interests; and the other
8 is doing it without partisanship.
9 These fishermen need help. You can help
10 them by postponing this thing until the courts
11 can determine if it's constitutional or not.
12 Many county judges have ruled it vague,
13 capricious, and unconstitutional what's being
14 done through these bureaucrats.
15 Gentlemen, Madam Secretary, we trust you,
16 but we don't trust these bureaucrats. I've
17 heard that from the fishermen, I've heard it
18 from Mr. Mowrey, and I stand here in behalf --
19 I'm seventy-six years old. I've pastored a lot
20 of fishermen in my day.
21 And I've always taken their part. And as
22 Thomas Jefferson said, our third President, many
23 years ago, he said, I was sworn upon the alters
24 of God eternal opposition to tyranny over the
25 minds and souls of men.
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1 And I'll use the rest of my life fighting
2 for the interests of these men, even this
3 gentleman here with these little old fish in a
4 net killing baby fish, when these bureaucrats
5 want us to -- wants the fishermen to keep doing
6 that, but you gentlemen hold this issue in your
7 power.
8 And I'm asking you in the name of the Lord
9 Jesus Christ to rule in their favor today, and
10 all mighty God will be proud of you, and the
11 whole State of Florida will.
12 God bless you.
13 Thank you.
14 DR. NELSON: Speaking for the proponents of
15 the rule, first we have Mr. Ted Forsgren.
16 MR. FORSGREN: Governor, members of the
17 Cabinet, my name is Ted Forsgren, and I'm here
18 in support of the rule.
19 The issue here, as I described it at the
20 Cabinet Aides meeting, is pretty simple. If you
21 take a bumper off a Cadillac and you put it on a
22 truck, you still have a truck.
23 If you take a tiny piece of seine net, and
24 you sew it into a gill net, you've still got a
25 gill net. And the constitutional amendment was
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1 pretty clear, no gill or entangling nets in
2 Florida waters.
3 The fishermen from Wakulla County want to
4 use an old rule that existed prior to the
5 constitutional amendment, the same rule that was
6 used during the buy-out program to create a
7 loophole to say that a gill net is really a
8 seine net.
9 This rule by the Marine Fisheries
10 Commission was adopted 15 months ago. And
11 throughout that whole process, the fishermen are
12 saying, we just want to know what we can fish
13 and what we can't fish.
14 And they've asked the Marine Fisheries
15 Commission, and they've said, this is the
16 distinguishing characteristics between the two
17 nets. They've asked the Florida Marine Patrol
18 and told them the same thing.
19 They simply keep going to additional places
20 until they can get the answer that they want.
21 The local Circuit Judge they're talking
22 about issued an injunction against the
23 Marine Patrol that said that if they even sewed
24 a piece of net this small into a 500 square foot
25 gill net, the Marine Patrol could not arrest
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1 them.
2 That injunction was quashed by the
3 First District Court of Appeal several days
4 later. And what they want to do is delay this
5 proceeding because they did not prevail in a
6 two-day administrative hearing in order to try
7 to get it there.
8 I've seen some strange demonstrations in my
9 time with fishing stuff, and there's some
10 unusual ones today. I assure you that if this
11 rule was going to create mass --
12 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
13 MR. FORSGREN: -- slaughter of baby fish,
14 as a conservation organization, we would be the
15 first one here to say, don't do it.
16 But what this rule does -- what this rule
17 does is -- seine nets have traditionally,
18 historically been designed to gather fish into
19 an area, and they're scooped out by some kind of
20 a mechanism, or in the case of Florida fishermen
21 now, a cast net.
22 A gill net is designed to capture fish by
23 having them go into the net and be entangled by
24 the gills.
25 There was a full administrative hearing,
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1 all the baby fish testimony, all the different
2 stuff, two full days in front of a
3 Hearing Officer, and she ruled in favor of the
4 Commission. There's a 31-page ruling, findings
5 of fact, and so forth, that upholds this issue.
6 There's also a larger issue here in terms
7 of more than 500 square feet. The amendment
8 continues to allow the use of seine nets, large
9 seine nets, up to 800 yards long, in offshore
10 Federal waters. If the issue is -- becomes
11 confused as to what is a gill net, you could
12 conceivably have large gill nets return to the
13 areas 3 miles offshore in Florida and 1 mile.
14 So this is a critical distinguishing factor in
15 terms of implementation of the amendment.
16 I want to also say that -- and, Governor,
17 I think you mentioned this, that commercial
18 fishermen are a tough breed, they're very
19 adaptable.
20 Other fishermen in other parts of the state
21 have developed seine nets and cast net
22 techniques using legal gear, that's legal under
23 this rule, that's legal under every concept of
24 the amendment, to harvest individually thousands
25 of pounds of mullet a day. They can do it.
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1 They're doing it in other parts of the state
2 right now.
3 And, in fact, mullet landings are
4 increasing at the rate of 30 percent a year, as
5 the stocks of mullet come back, and as the
6 techniques improve.
7 So there are means to viably harvest
8 mullet.
9 We've worked with the Legislature, and
10 Senator Latvala is here today because they've
11 provided additional mechanisms to the
12 Marine Fisheries Commission every time these
13 issues come up. We believe that this is a good
14 rule, it's gone through 15 months of the
15 administrative hearing wringer, and has come out
16 strong.
17 And so we urge you to adopt this rule. And
18 as you said, Governor, it creates a very clear
19 distinction as to what's legal and what's not
20 legal, and that's what we need in this area of
21 the state. The rest of the state seems to be
22 doing okay.
23 But this is a good rule, we urge you to
24 adopt it.
25 Thank you.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other testimony?
2 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
3 DR. NELSON: I believe that concludes the
4 testimony, Governor.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: May I, Governor?
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm trying to boil
8 all this down to its simplest terms.
9 Having -- having sat up here on a number of
10 occasions on a number of issues while appeals
11 are still pending on those issues, my question
12 is typically the same: I understand clearly why
13 Marine Fisheries would like to promulgate this
14 rule and see it passed. I understand that.
15 But I am -- I'm simply asking, and maybe
16 counsel, Russell, is a better person to ask --
17 if this is going to go to Judge McClure in early
18 April, there would no doubt be a ruling sometime
19 shortly thereafter.
20 What I'm trying to nail down here is, if
21 that ruling comes out in favor of the
22 Marine Fisheries -- and you don't know the
23 answer to this, I understand that -- is that the
24 end of this particular issue?
25 Now, I know you're not in a position, as
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1 our counsel either, to answer what others will
2 do. But what I'm trying to determine is: If we
3 postpone this, are we simply pushing it back for
4 what probably will be one more appeal upon one
5 more appeal upon one more appeal, and that's,
6 I think, problematic.
7 Or are we being asked today to wait for one
8 appeal that will ultimately end this, and if it
9 is found in the favor of Marine Fisheries, give
10 us the ability to promulgate this rule and end
11 this discussion?
12 Or are we being asked to promulgate a rule
13 that has any potential at all of becoming
14 problematic if, in fact, the appeal is upheld?
15 DR. NELSON: I'll --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And that is as simple
17 as I can get this thing down to.
18 DR. NELSON: And since neither of us are
19 lawyers, I'll try to give you my best answer,
20 and then let Jon back it up.
21 But, one, the -- this rule, which the
22 Hearing Officer upheld, has been appealed to the
23 First District Court of Appeals. In our
24 experience, since that appeal is not likely to
25 be resolved for six, eight months or a year or
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1 more, the -- that their appeal of the ruling in
2 our favor. That's -- that's one appeal.
3 On the other hand, I suspect that in the
4 McClure decision, no matter who prevails, the
5 opposing party will appeal that decision.
6 And, Jon, do you have --
7 MR. GLOGAU: Well, Commissioner, I think
8 that the -- underlying your question, as I --
9 I think I said before, this rule will clarify
10 issues in the litigation, and will alleviate
11 some of the problems out on the -- in the field
12 in terms of having, as Dr. Nelson said, a bright
13 line.
14 Delaying this rule pending the appeal will
15 give another -- as Dr. Nelson said, you know,
16 appeals to the First DCA can take up to a year.
17 So we would then have another full year of
18 confusion based on the rules that were in effect
19 before the constitutional amendment was
20 adopted.
21 And these rules are an attempt by the
22 Commission to take existing rules that were --
23 that were in effect before the amendment was
24 passed.
25 For example, also included in your rule
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1 package today is a rule that repeals a
2 limitation on the mesh size for gill nets. So
3 there is currently in the administrative code a
4 rule that says that gill nets have to be a
5 certain mesh size.
6 Well, clearly gill nets are banned by the
7 amendment. So this is a rule that is obsolete.
8 The same thing is happening with the mesh
9 size rules. The rules that are being relied
10 upon to create confusion in the field are the
11 rules that were in effect prior to the
12 amendment.
13 Those are the rules that are being
14 litigated in front of Judge McClure. Those are
15 the rules that the plaintiffs in that case are
16 asserting make their net legal.
17 The Commission's interpretation is that is
18 an obsolete rule, and that the 2-inch rule will
19 lessen litigation and create a certainty as to
20 what is legal and what is not.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I appreciate your
22 response. I guess my question is simply, to put
23 it in the bluntest terms I can: Are we looking,
24 if we don't promulgate the rule today, at simply
25 eight more months of confusion -- and I
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1 appreciate your intent to clarify -- with the
2 end result of whatever that ruling comes out to
3 be on appeal, finally what clarifies this entire
4 issue for the entire state?
5 Or are we simply, in your opinion, looking
6 at awaiting an appeal that will simply no doubt
7 create more and more appeals.
8 Because the bottom line is trying to
9 create, I think, some clarity on this issue.
10 And whether we're going to go eight months, or
11 potentially years through the appeal process
12 until clarity is brought to this thing, I think
13 clarity is an important issue.
14 I think we've got fishermen all over the
15 state who need to know what the law is and what
16 the rule is, whatever it is, so that people --
17 (Applause.)
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No. Wait.
19 -- so that people understand both in
20 law enforcement, and in the field, what the
21 practical application of these rules are.
22 So all that to say this: If -- if you are
23 telling me that we need to promulgate this rule
24 because this thing is probably going to be
25 appealed forever, whatever the rulings are that
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1 come out in the future, then I want to
2 promulgate the rule. That clarity is important
3 to everyone.
4 If you are telling me that we could have,
5 at the very worst, eight months or so more of
6 confusion, which I don't like, but maybe could
7 live with, if the -- if the appeal that comes
8 down is going to settle this once and for all,
9 that's something there again.
10 Do you understand what I'm trying to get
11 at?
12 MR. GLOGAU: I think I do.
13 The way I see it, Commissioner, if you
14 defer today until the appeal is completed in the
15 District Court of Appeals, what you will have is
16 a situation where we believe that we will
17 prevail on appeal, first of all. I think I said
18 that before. Of course, Mr. Mowrey would say
19 differently.
20 But that being the case, during the
21 pendency of the appeal, you have litigation
22 going on in the Circuit Court on obsolete --
23 what we consider to be obsolete rules.
24 If Judge McClure rules in favor of the
25 plaintiffs in that case, in favor of the
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1 fishermen, then I suspect that there will be an
2 appeal of that, and that will -- the filing of
3 the appeal will stay the effectiveness of his
4 decision. So we're going to be right back to
5 where we started, same confusion, nobody knows
6 what's going on out there.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And you've answered
8 my question, at least as you can answer it,
9 because I know you don't represent both parties
10 here. I understand that.
11 What you're basically saying is, if the
12 appeal comes down against this rule, then that
13 will be appealed. In like fashion -- and
14 I guess only -- only counsel for the fishermen
15 could --
16 MR. GLOGAU: Well, no --
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- tell us that.
18 MR. GLOGAU: Excuse me, Commissioner,
19 I think you're misunderstanding me.
20 This rule is not -- the validity of this
21 rule is not being litigated in front of
22 Judge McClure.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand.
24 MR. GLOGAU: He does not have jurisdiction
25 to litigate that.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand.
2 MR. GLOGAU: So this rule is valid,
3 according to the Hearing Officer, Administrative
4 Law Judge. And if you adopt it, it will go into
5 effect and it will be effective.
6 If at sometime in the future, the appeals
7 court finds that the Hearing Officer was
8 incorrect, then the rule will be taken back off
9 the books, and we'll go back to where we
10 started.
11 But what you vote for today in voting to
12 adopt this rule is you vote for certain.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand that.
14 MR. GLOGAU: And that's -- that's -- that's
15 why we think it should go forward.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: What about hearing
17 from the counselor from the other side, is --
18 Governor.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
20 MR. MOWREY: Yes. Very briefly.
21 I believe Judge McClure is going to dispose
22 of this substantively. There are a number of
23 issues that are important that relate to your
24 question, Commissioner Brogan.
25 One is the issue of a test of definition
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1 versus functionality. That's very critical.
2 Second is the measurement issue. That's
3 still before the judge. That's important.
4 And the third is, the very critical issue
5 of commercial viability. Those must be
6 determined by Judge McClure. So, yes, this
7 proposed rule will be affected by that.
8 But more importantly, on May the 14th,
9 there -- and I suspect this case will be --
10 these will be consolidated. I bet we're going
11 to find the DCA -- we had a hearing --
12 management conference last week on some others.
13 These are -- this is going to be
14 consolidated. Whatever happened in
15 Judge McClure's court on appeal will be
16 consolidated with the rule. So it won't create
17 any other confusion. It will help move it
18 along.
19 But more importantly, on May the 14th,
20 there are also oral arguments on two
21 consolidated cases with eight or ten or twelve
22 defendants involved in a criminal case. And
23 those will also, I believe, once and for all,
24 dispose of all of this, either at the District
25 Court level, or the Supreme Court.
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1 So, yes, I do believe so.
2 The downside though, in the interim period
3 is, if you do that, it -- is the resulting
4 prosecutions, loss of property, forfeitures, the
5 fishermen can't stand that another year when
6 they're using this legal net now under the law.
7 That's what we're saying.
8 So, yes, I believe there will be some
9 clarity when it comes out of the
10 District Court of Appeal. I believe all the
11 signals are, defer this, don't adopt it today.
12 There's no reason to.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I --
14 MR. MOWREY: Because the bright line --
15 excuse me. I'm sorry.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's all right,
17 sir. Go ahead.
18 MR. MOWREY: The bright line won't be a
19 bright line. Too many other issues.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I appreciate
21 your --
22 MR. MOWREY: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- position.
24 What I'm trying to get down to is, however
25 that appeal comes out, trying to determine if
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1 it's better for us to go ahead and pass this
2 rule today and provide that clarity for everyone
3 concerned, especially the fishermen, in my
4 opinion; or wait until the appeal comes out, and
5 find that it is simply going to be appealed
6 again, which would continue to push this
7 thing --
8 MR. MOWREY: No --
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- off and further
10 exacerbate the problem of lack of clarity, which
11 puts a lot of people at risk, in my opinion.
12 MR. MOWREY: I --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And from -- from
14 counsel's standpoint, he believes that there is
15 the potential that -- and I think good counsel
16 always leaves themself that avenue, that if,
17 in fact, it doesn't come out the way they want
18 it to come out, they may appeal that.
19 Am I -- am I characterizing that correct,
20 Counsel?
21 And I would think as a -- as a good
22 attorney, you would always want to leave
23 yourself the avenue to say that however that
24 appeal comes down through the appellate court,
25 that you would want to leave yourself the wiggle
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1 room to say that you may appeal any, all, or
2 part of that ruling further on if you have the
3 ability to do that.
4 MR. MOWREY: I, in good faith, believe that
5 the District Court of Appeal's opinion will
6 resolve, once and for all, the issue of whether
7 this rule was properly proposed by the
8 Marine Fisheries Commission.
9 I do believe it will end at the DCA. I do
10 believe that. Professionally.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And how long do you
12 think that would take?
13 MR. MOWREY: It could take anywhere from
14 three months to nine months. There are ways to
15 expedite some of these. We've -- again, we were
16 at a case management conference last week
17 looking at consolidating to expedite some. That
18 could happen.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But either way it
20 goes, it appears as though -- and I'm not
21 disagreeing with your statement, Counselor, I
22 respect you for it.
23 But if, in fact, it goes the way you just
24 suggested, there is -- I'm not an attorney --
25 still the opportunity for the other side to
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1 appeal, whatever that ruling is. Is there not?
2 MR. MOWREY: Of the rule challenge? I
3 don't know where the rule challenge can go
4 beyond the DCA, absent a constitutional
5 challenge. I think that may be the end of the
6 road is my suggestion.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Would you agree with
8 that, Counsel?
9 MR. GLOGAU: Well, as a technical --
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I know you don't --
11 MR. GLOGAU: -- as --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- know what the
13 ruling is yet. And I --
14 MR. GLOGAU: Right. And as --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- understand that.
16 MR. GLOGAU: -- a technical matter,
17 Commissioner, you can attempt to appeal to the
18 Supreme Court. I think it unlikely that the
19 Supreme Court would take a case like that. But
20 technically it could be appealed to the
21 Supreme Court.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other questions?
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move the
24 staff recommendation, Governor.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Staff recommendations has
2 been moved and seconded.
3 I -- I just want to say that -- the
4 question is really clearly what is sort of our
5 responsibility here. The rule has been proposed
6 14 months, it's gone to the Administrative
7 Judge, and a hearing has been held.
8 It is not normal that we -- when something
9 comes back from the Administrative Judge that is
10 going to be appealed, that we say we're going to
11 wait until that appeal. I -- I can't think of
12 any instance --
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- in which we have done
15 that.
16 I think that in -- in this matter, the
17 issues that are before Judge McClure now, if
18 some of them were up there on rules that are old
19 rules that are knocked out by the
20 constitutional -- by the -- by the amendment,
21 and by this proposed rule, regardless of how
22 Judge McClure rules on that, eventually it's
23 going to come back to this rule, if the
24 District -- if the District Court opposed this
25 rule.
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MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION March 24, 1998 83
1 And so it's going to go.
2 Again, you know, part of what I think we're
3 talking about is what our responsibility is
4 here, Mr. Crum.
5 And -- and our responsibility, and you
6 talked about the three -- or were talking about
7 the three branches of service --
8 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- the Judicial, the
10 Executive, and the Legislative. Our system
11 works on the basis of each one of them doing
12 their -- their respective duty.
13 I didn't happen to support the net ban. I
14 didn't think it was the way to approach it. I
15 thought we could continue to regulate the
16 resource ourself.
17 People thought differently than that. The
18 people adopted the constitutional provision that
19 they have made here, and our responsibility now
20 is to carry out our rules, our responsibility in
21 regard to that.
22 I happen to be somebody that doesn't think
23 quite as much about politics as I once did,
24 because I'm reaching the twilight zone as -- in
25 regard to any political service again.
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1 But I do think that you carry out your
2 responsibility as you see it, and I think our
3 responsibility, we see it, is to adopt the rule
4 now.
5 Ronald Fred? Yes, sir.
6 I'll answer -- see if he has a question.
7 MR. CRUM: What I'd like to do is the --
8 the instrument here from the Administrative Law
9 Judge, what she said -- what you have to
10 understand today is on page 4, Findings of Fact,
11 number 2:
12 The unrefuted evidence is that the proposed
13 rule amendment will reduce the catchability rate
14 of a single such seine net from any types of
15 fish, and not be commercially feasible for
16 mullet.
17 You know, regardless if we win later, death
18 for these people is today. It's commercially
19 not feasible.
20 What did she say? Unrefutable. This is
21 your instrument. This is the rule. This is the
22 final order from the judge, and she says, yes,
23 they have the authority to put them to death.
24 What I would like to do, in the first case,
25 the -- we went to the Supreme Court. They said,
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1 the people sought to limit, rather than
2 prohibit -- and I do support that amendment.
3 I think it's good. So we have to keep resource
4 protection in mind.
5 But I'll come back to you in seven or
6 eight months if the courts don't say the
7 commercial viability is part of that.
8 And I'll support whatever rule it takes to
9 solve the problem once the constitution is
10 settled on commercial viability. The commercial
11 viability is the total dispute here. Two-inch
12 mesh net, as you're proposing today, is not
13 commercially viable.
14 And I support -- I represent people all
15 over the state of Florida, and have traveled all
16 over the state of Florida, not Wakulla County.
17 We're the mailing address.
18 Thank you.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, last --
21 last statement --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- from me, I
24 promise, on the issue, is -- is the fact that I
25 am concerned about that clarity issue. I know
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1 people don't like to hear that. It bothers them
2 because they always think down the road someone
3 else will clarify it for them in a way that they
4 would rather hear it.
5 But I still believe that if we are
6 eight months away, as a very minimum, and
7 potentially based on additional appeals, months
8 and months, and maybe years away from final
9 resolution on this matter, that we would do a
10 disservice to the people who are in the field,
11 both law enforcement and fishermen, even though
12 it's always hard to hear the old phrase, it's
13 for your own good, if we don't bring some
14 clarity to this issue, I wouldn't want to be out
15 there with a speed limit that gave you the
16 ability to go between 50 and 95 miles an hour,
17 and it was up to the law enforcement to
18 determine where in there they decided you were
19 violating the law.
20 Even if I didn't like the speed limit, I'd
21 rather know what it is so that I could abide by
22 it.
23 And in this particular case, I think it's
24 important we bring some clarity to it, whether
25 it's decided ultimately in eight months or
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1 eight years, I think the people who are affected
2 directly, both law enforcement and fishermen,
3 deserve a ruling today.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: The staff recommendation
5 has been moved and seconded.
6 Further discussion?
7 Many as favor the recommendation, signify
8 by saying aye.
9 THE CABINET: Aye.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
11 The staff recommendation is adopted.
12 DR. NELSON: Governor, may I amplify
13 something I said earlier, at the request of some
14 of the folks out here in response to your
15 question?
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
17 DR. NELSON: In response to your question
18 about this bright line issue.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
20 DR. NELSON: I want to again clarify on the
21 record that in the Commission's view, we are the
22 single agency in the state who have legislative
23 authorization to interpret the Constitution.
24 Our 2-inch rule that you have just passed
25 is a bright line. If that net is 500 square
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1 feet or less, if the mesh is 2 inches square or
2 less, it is legally being fished in the water,
3 regardless of the inadvertent consequences of
4 its use.
5 And I would personally go to testify for
6 any attorney who felt that the Marine Patrol had
7 prosecuted them by interpreting this
8 differently.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
10 (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
11 concluded.)
12 *
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 89
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Trustees of Internal
2 Improvement Fund.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 1, minutes of the
4 February 10th, '98, meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, the minutes are adopted.
9 MR. GREEN: Item 2, purchase agreement to
10 acquire approximately .36 acres within the
11 Coupon Bight CARL project.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, they're approved.
16 MR. GREEN: Item 3, two purchase agreements
17 to acquire 86.2 acres in Belle Meade CARL
18 project.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, that's approved.
23 MR. GREEN: Item 4, two option agreements
24 to acquire 18.41 acres in the Florida Springs
25 Coastal Greenway Project.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 90
1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, that's approved.
5 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 5, acceptance
6 of assignment of option agreements for
7 5,242 acres in Annutteliga Hammock; designation
8 of Department of Agriculture, Division of
9 Forestry, and Game and Fresh Water Fish
10 Commission as managing agencies; and
11 confirmation of the management policy statement.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, that's approved.
16 MR. GREEN: Item 6, acceptance of
17 assignment of an option agreement to acquire
18 1,584 acres in Annutteliga Hammock.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second --
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: And, Governor, I'd just
23 like to comment that the Nature Conservancy did
24 one heck of a job on both Items 5 and 6, and
25 saved us 5 million dollars.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 91
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
6 Without objection, that's approved.
7 And we're delighted to see what the
8 Conservancy's done.
9 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 7, option
10 agreement to acquire 3582 acres in the
11 Wekiva-Ocala Greenway.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Like to move approval.
13 And the Department saved $600,000 on this one.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. GREEN: Item 8, option agreement to
19 acquire 2,544 acres in the Charlotte Harbor
20 Flatwood Project.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, that's approved.
25 MR. GREEN: Item 9, option agreement to
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 92
1 acquire .85 acres in Rookery Bay.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
3 MR. GREEN: And waiver of survey.
4 Excuse me.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, that's approved.
8 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 10, purchase
9 agreement to acquire 6.56 acres by the Board of
10 Trustees.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, that's approved.
15 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 11, purchase
16 agreement to acquire 348 acres, benefit of the
17 Department of Correction.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, that's approved.
22 MR. GREEN: Second Substitute Item 12,
23 assignment of an option agreement to designation
24 of Division of Forestry as the managing agency,
25 and confirmation of management plan.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 93
1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 13, recommend
6 withdrawal.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move withdrawal.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's withdrawn.
12 MR. GREEN: Item 14, request to convey
13 9,384 acres of Trustees' lands to the
14 South Florida Water Management District.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. GREEN: Item 15, determination that two
20 50-year easements are compatible with the
21 purposes for which Point Washington lands were
22 acquired, issuance of 50-year lease to
23 Alabama Electric, and a 50-year lease to
24 Choctawhatchee Electric.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move --
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 94
1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval --
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- approval with --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- conditions.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded with
6 conditions.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. GREEN: Item 16, authorization to
9 encumber specific parcels of State-owned lands
10 as condition of receipt of Federal grant money.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved, seconded.
14 Without objection, it's approved.
15 MR. GREEN: Item 17, quitclaim deed of
16 .006 acres.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move approval.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
20 Without objection, it's approved.
21 MR. GREEN: Item 18, application for a
22 disclaimer of sovereign submerged lands for --
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
24 MR. GREEN: -- .0--
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 95
1 MR. GREEN: Item 19, permission --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, that's
3 approved.
4 MR. GREEN: Item 19, permission to publish
5 a proposed rule relating to disclaimers.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Item 20, consideration,
10 approval to publish rulemaking on extended term
11 leases.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, on this
13 item --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- I just want to
16 make a comment, if I could.
17 On the -- the issue of the -- the
18 calculation of the -- of the rent, I know y'all
19 have worked on this, and I'm still trying to get
20 a little more clarity to it.
21 And I don't know exactly what to propose,
22 but I would -- I would move that we request
23 staff during the rulemaking process to consider
24 other --
25 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.)
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- fee options,
2 such as charges 10 percent of the gross
3 receipts, and see -- see what you'd come up with
4 for that. And, you know, not trying to lock you
5 down to something here today.
6 But if we could ask you to consider that, I
7 would -- I would think --
8 MR. GREEN: I understand.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- that might help.
10 MR. GREEN: Okay.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I would agree.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: It was moved.
13 Is there a second?
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MR. GREEN: Item 21, approval to publish
18 notice of proposed rulemaking for special event
19 leases.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I would move approval
21 with the same comments that
22 Commissioner Crawford just made on the prior
23 item.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND March 24, 1998 97
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could I ask a
4 question on that one, even though I'm going to
5 vote approval on it.
6 The riparian owners?
7 MR. GREEN: Yes.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is there still, in
9 your opinion, Kirby, some confusion on that
10 issue relative to notification of --
11 (Comptroller Milligan entered the room.)
12 MR. GREEN: I don't think there's confusion
13 over notification. There's -- there were two --
14 there are two things that we're doing with the
15 riparian owner -- riparian owners.
16 One is notifying them of the application,
17 which is required of all owners within 500 feet
18 of the proposed activity.
19 And two is a requirement that the applicant
20 get approval from the riparian owners as it
21 affects their riparian rights, a consent to use
22 those lands.
23 So there -- there are two different issues
24 there. One is a requirement that they have
25 notice, the second is a requirement that the
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1 applicant provide consent from the riparian
2 owner to use those properties.
3 So -- does that -- does that clarify --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Are -- in your
5 opinion, are there satisfactory deadline dates,
6 et cetera, et cetera?
7 I mean, is it clear in terms of who has to
8 do what and by when in order to qualify?
9 MR. GREEN: Yes. I think so. The first
10 one requires that they respond within 30 days.
11 The second is a completeness item on the
12 application. The applicant has to provide those
13 consents from the riparian owners to move
14 forward with the application.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And it will not
16 consider to be complete unless there is a
17 response?
18 MR. GREEN: That's correct. As --
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: By the --
20 MR. GREEN: -- a response --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- riparian owner.
22 MR. GREEN: Yes, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: A question there,
25 too.
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1 Would -- in your mind, is there the
2 potential case that could exist where a riparian
3 owner might object, and it'd be an unreasonable
4 objection, that somehow we need to deal with
5 that? If we just one --
6 MR. GREEN: Yeah. In the discussions and
7 the development of the rule, we talked about
8 whether there should be an appeal process to you
9 where an individual riparian owner refused to
10 consent when there was a line of riparian owners
11 that had consented, and we had one that was a
12 holdout, for whatever the reason.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right.
14 MR. GREEN: When we looked at that, we felt
15 like that that was really a property rights
16 issue, and something that the courts would have
17 to determine, whether or not the proposed
18 activity was an infringement on his riparian
19 rights.
20 So we chose not to -- not to include that
21 appeals process to you in -- in the rule --
22 proposed rule that we have before you today.
23 That is the subject of some legislation
24 this year, and I know some of the marine
25 industries association would like for us to put
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1 that back in.
2 But, again, our position, at least at this
3 point is, that that is a -- a property rights
4 issue that the courts have held unto themselves
5 and have not included that in our
6 recommendations to you at this point.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Any further
8 discussion on that one?
9 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
10 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
11 *
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION March 24, 1998 101
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Florida Land and Water
2 Adjudicatory Commission.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, request
4 approval of the minutes of the March 10th,
5 1998 --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval of --
7 DR. BRADLEY: -- minutes.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- minutes.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, request
14 authorization to enter the third amended draft
15 order denying the motion to stay --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move staff
17 recommendation.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
20 Without objection, it's approved.
21 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
22 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
23 *
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION March 24, 1998 102
1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
2 Administrative Commission.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
4 approval of the minutes for the meeting held
5 March --
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, that's approved.
11 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, I'd like to take up
12 number 3 out of order to facilitate --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
14 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, request
15 authorization to enter the draft final orders
16 for Items 3 A. through 3 F.; and defer
17 consideration of provision 3 G. of the
18 South Florida Water Management District's
19 petition concerning general permits.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move Item 3,
21 staff recommendation.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Item 3 and staff
24 recommendation is moved.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
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1 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, request
2 authorization to enter the amended draft order
3 of transmittal having to do with Homestead
4 Air Force Base Reuse Plan.
5 There's a number of people here to speak on
6 this. Just to give you a -- first an overview
7 and explain the staff recommendation, let me
8 introduce Teresa Tinker. Then she'll be
9 followed -- she has 5 minutes.
10 Then we'll have Secretary Murley come up
11 for 5 minutes.
12 We'll have 20 minutes per side. There's a
13 number of speakers --
14 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
15 DR. BRADLEY: -- on both sides of this
16 issue.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
18 DR. BRADLEY: First I'd like Teresa Tinker
19 of the Office of Planning and Budgeting --
20 MS. TINKER: Governor and Cabinet, what you
21 have in front of you for this item is the
22 Reuse Plan adopted by Miami-Dade County for the
23 Homestead Air Force Base. The Plan came to you
24 under a statute, Chapter 288, that provides an
25 optional process for a Reuse Plan.
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1 If the County -- or if a local government
2 opts to use this process, then they are not
3 required to go through the procedural aspects of
4 Chapter 163, which is the Growth Management
5 Plan; and they are not required to take the
6 development through the Chapter 380 DRI review
7 process.
8 The intent of Chapter 288 is to have an
9 expedited, coordinated review process and
10 approval process once the Federal government
11 provides notice that they are going to close a
12 base. And that is what Miami-Dade has done,
13 they opted to use this process.
14 They adopted their plan. The plan was
15 challenged by seven petitioners. Several of
16 those are here to speak to you today.
17 The parties tried to resolve the issues in
18 dispute through a mediation effort. That was --
19 had limited success. The Department of
20 Community Affairs serves as an informal
21 hearing officer.
22 Under the statute, an informal hearing was
23 conducted, and the -- the parties were not
24 willing to accept the Department's
25 recommendations for changes that would be
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1 necessary in the County's adopted plan to
2 resolve the disputes. And under the statute at
3 that point, the Department is required to submit
4 its report and recommendations for remedial
5 actions to the Administration Commission.
6 The statute provides that the Commission
7 shall take action to resolve the issues in
8 dispute. And in deciding upon a proper
9 resolution of those issues, there are factors
10 laid out in the statute that you must consider.
11 Those statutes include the nature of the
12 issues in dispute, the compliance of the parties
13 with the section of the statute that lays out
14 the process and the substantive criteria, the
15 extent of the conflict between the parties, the
16 comparative hardships, and the public interest
17 involved.
18 Governor and Cabinet, if you choose to
19 approve the plan that was adopted by the County,
20 you are approving a -- a use of an airport for
21 commercial facilities and civilian facilities
22 that includes approximately 1800 acres overall
23 in the total plan, and over 4 million square
24 feet of development.
25 That will be done in phases. The DCA's
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1 recommendation sets out what would be a --
2 included in Phase I should you accept DCA's
3 recommendations. Subsequent phases would have
4 to go through certain review processes and be
5 subject to any revision that might be necessary
6 as a result of some of those review processes.
7 But what you're actually approving today,
8 what's before you today, is the full scope of
9 the project as proposed and adopted by
10 Miami-Dade County.
11 Let's see. Secretary Murley is the first
12 speaker.
13 MR. MURLEY: Governor, members of the
14 Cabinet, Secretary Murley -- Jim Murley from the
15 Department of Community Affairs.
16 Teresa did a good job kind of outlining to
17 you the fact that we are here under
18 Chapter 288. That's the first time that you as
19 the Administration Commission and the Department
20 have been postured in this situation under this
21 particular law.
22 We are often here, when we needn't be, to
23 resolve issues under our comp planning law and
24 our Developmental Regional Impact Law.
25 The closest analogy I could make to you is
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1 this is similar to our Campus Master Planning
2 Law, a separate planning statute for a separate
3 set of activities, that, if you will, are
4 already in existence. The campuses are there.
5 Like the Campus Master Planning Law, the
6 Base Reuse Law is not about siting a new
7 airfield, it's about the reuse of an existing
8 facility, and accommodating that and
9 coordinating that into the community, sensitive
10 to the regionally significant environmental
11 resources.
12 So that was our job as tasked in
13 Chapter 288. And as Teresa said, it was meant
14 to be an expedited process, consistent on the
15 time frames established in the statute.
16 It's a process independent of the other
17 Federal and State permitting processes.
18 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
19 MR. MURLEY: We don't back up or go forward
20 depending on what those processes are doing. We
21 move on our schedule as determined in our
22 statute.
23 The -- the statute's clear that we are to
24 honor, consistent with our State
25 responsibilities, of protecting the health,
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1 public safety, and welfare, the affected
2 community's plan for reusing the base.
3 So DCA found its -- it was in the position
4 under this statute of seeking to find a -- under
5 the law, a way to have the base reused. The
6 base that's there, not some expanded version of
7 it, but the base that is there.
8 The law is optional. We've already used it
9 very successfully in Orlando, we're underway in
10 Cecil Field in Jacksonville and Key West, and
11 this would be the fourth application, which has
12 been going on for several years.
13 And we've used -- within the statute, there
14 are several opportunities to try to resolve
15 conflict. When we -- it was clear that there
16 was going to be petitioners, as Teresa
17 indicated, we went into an alternative dispute
18 resolution process for 90 days. We couldn't get
19 closure.
20 I then appointed a three-person panel of
21 Department of Community Affairs employees, a
22 lawyer, and three -- two planners.
23 And they held an informal hearing, under
24 Chapter 120. That is what the statute
25 specified, an informal 120 hearing, with all the
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1 parties, fielded all the information we could,
2 created the record.
3 And then because we had unresolved issues,
4 it was our duty to present to the County in
5 April of last year our proposed resolution of
6 unresolved issues.
7 If the County had accepted the order at
8 that time, the issue and questions would have
9 been moot, subject to appeals, by any of the
10 petitioning parties under whatever rights they
11 had. It would not have moved to you.
12 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
13 MR. MURLEY: The County did not accept our
14 proposed resolution of the issues, and,
15 therefore, we had the responsibility for seeing
16 if we -- if there was any other way to settle
17 the issues.
18 We did that in the remainder of 1997. And
19 then in early January '98, we felt our
20 responsibility to send the report to you as an
21 unresolved set of issues under Chapter 288.
22 Teresa explained to you the size of the
23 plan. It's -- it's a plan for the base reuse of
24 the proposed -- as written up by Dade County as
25 an amendment to their local government
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1 comprehensive plan.
2 We have a series of conditions dealing with
3 the -- outlining the square footage and other
4 ways for the first phase part of the
5 development.
6 And these are very significant conditions.
7 We believe these were the kinds of conditions
8 like we would use in a Developmental Regional
9 Impact review, or other type review that was
10 contemplated by the Legislature when they set up
11 288. It was very clear. While we doing a
12 streamlined process, we were to look to the
13 standards and -- and mitigation activity that we
14 would normally use in a project of this size, a
15 DRI.
16 So we proposed significant conditions,
17 which I know are summarized for you.
18 But it's important that you understand the
19 condition of -- of not allowing the airport to
20 become a fully operational FAA licensed
21 airport. And we conditioned that activity until
22 such time as some of the important reports to
23 address storm water and other activities are
24 complete.
25 Under Federal law, a licensed FAA airport
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1 has -- frankly, can supersede some of the
2 authority we have to try to mitigate other
3 impacts. And it's -- it's a complicated set of
4 issues, but we feel very clearly that's the
5 significant condition, as is the noise
6 condition.
7 We heard extensive information from our
8 Federal partners at both national parks about
9 their concerns about noise, in which case we
10 asked for noise studies to be done and be
11 brought back and approved both by the Department
12 of Interior and by the County as it dealt
13 with -- and by the Department as it dealt with
14 that issue. And there are other conditions.
15 So we -- we believe that we have followed
16 the law, we've tried every one of the
17 alternative processes for resolving conflicts.
18 And we've tied down the first phase of
19 development, with the conditions we've
20 recommended to you. We believe the record we
21 created support those conditions.
22 Your staff has raised the issue under the
23 Chapter 120 --
24 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
25 MR. MURLEY: -- of whether or not there
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1 should be a question of law, whether or not this
2 further action is necessary under Chapter 120.
3 That's the question you need to decide.
4 But if you decide other than that, I
5 certainly would recommend to you, as the
6 accountable State agency official for this
7 process, that you accept our conditions for the
8 first phase, and that you leave the Department
9 in the responsible position to be accountable
10 under our applicable laws for the -- any
11 development that would take place for the rest
12 of the project.
13 I also want to say, Governor, and I know
14 that Mayor Pinellas and Mayor Shiver and
15 Mayor Wallace -- Mayor Shiver from Homestead,
16 and Mayor Wallace from -- from Florida City,
17 intend to speak to you -- or at least they had
18 planned to speak you.
19 We will continue -- notwithstanding what
20 happens, we will continue to work with them as
21 part of Team South Dade on the appropriate
22 economic activities that are needed for
23 South Dade after Hurricane Andrew, and to work
24 with them in appropriate ways.
25 We've been committed through the actions of
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1 the State agencies, all of your agencies, in
2 many ways, to work with South Dade. We will
3 continue to do that.
4 Thank you very much, members of the
5 Cabinet. I'd be glad to answer any questions,
6 or assist you as you deliberate this issue.
7 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, Cabinet, I have
8 a -- I have an option for you.
9 The -- at this time, we had planned to have
10 a series of speakers, first from Dade County,
11 and some of the folks who are for approving the
12 plan. Those folks aren't in the room right this
13 second.
14 We could either take a break for a couple
15 minutes, or we could go on and take some of the
16 folks who are against approving the plan, and
17 then -- then pick up those folks from the County
18 later, and then give the people who -- the
19 challengers some -- an opportunity to rebut at
20 the end.
21 Whichever you would like to do. Two
22 options.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Do we know how long
24 that --
25 DR. BRADLEY: They said they're coming
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1 pretty quickly.
2 MR. BOOK: They're on their way now.
3 DR. BRADLEY: They're on their way.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's just take a couple
5 of minutes break.
6 DR. BRADLEY: Okay.
7 (Recess.)
8 (Attorney General Butterworth not present
9 in the room.)
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: I understand that the
11 delegation from Miami is now here. So if we can
12 round up our troops.
13 All right.
14 DR. BRADLEY: Governor --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
16 DR. BRADLEY: -- we -- we're going to take
17 20 minutes per side. We'll have first several
18 of the folks who are in favor of approving the
19 plan.
20 And first up is Mayor Pinellas of
21 Miami-Dade.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
23 DR. BRADLEY: When they're get -- when
24 they're done, I'll get them to sign this book
25 over here with their name so we'll have their --
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Good morning,
2 Mayor.
3 MAYOR PINELLAS: Mr. Governor, members of
4 the Cabinet, good afternoon. It's a pleasure to
5 be here to talk about this very, very important
6 issue for South Miami-Dade County, and, in fact,
7 for the entire area of Miami-Dade County.
8 But, in fact, it's with some remorse and
9 lost hope that the County, the Miami-Dade County
10 community, entered 1998 with a still uncertain
11 future about Homestead Air Force Base.
12 The proud history of this facility and its
13 significant economic benefits mandated that our
14 community fight, not only to save the base, but
15 also to alleviate system capacity needs by
16 siting another air carrier facility for the
17 south Florida region.
18 By way of history from Hurricane Andrew to
19 the present, and just on this Chapter 288
20 process, Miami-Dade County has been involved in
21 over 50 workshops with Federal, State, and local
22 agencies; public hearings held by our local
23 planning agency and our Board of County
24 Commissioners; a 150-day review period; a 90-day
25 mediation period; and an informal hearing held
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1 by the Department of Community Affairs.
2 And along the way, each and every step
3 along the way, Miami-Dade County has made
4 endless concessions to improve the environment.
5 We ask ourselves just how much further scrutiny
6 is required.
7 Here are the details. A Reuse Plan for
8 Homestead Air Force Base was thoughtfully
9 developed through hundreds of meetings with
10 concerned citizens and agencies, all of whom
11 were cognizant and respectful of the base's
12 location between two national parks.
13 The result of those community hearings was
14 a plan that was so well conceived that it became
15 the preferred alternative of the approved final
16 Environmental Impact Statement, which, as all of
17 you know, was issued January of 1994.
18 That Environmental Impact Statement allowed
19 Miami-Dade County to avail itself of the
20 Chapter 288 process for expedited -- expedited
21 redevelopment.
22 And as we all know, the 288 process was
23 conceived for that exact purpose, for expediting
24 what would otherwise be an extensive and
25 complicated DRI process.
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1 My hope today is that you as a body will
2 respect the intent and the valuable work of the
3 288 process and approve Miami-Dade County's
4 amendments.
5 Any deferral of the issues before you, or
6 referral to the Department of Administrative
7 Hearing, would only serve to delay what has
8 already been a long and exhausting process.
9 In addition to the 288 process,
10 Miami-Dade County, along with your State
11 agencies, have actively participated in, and
12 supported, all of the other deliberations of the
13 Homestead Air Force Base Issue Team, the Working
14 Group of the South Florida Ecosystem Restoration
15 Task Force, and the Task Force itself.
16 Through these processes, Miami-Dade County
17 has agreed to numerous operational and
18 geographic restrictions.
19 Again, we have done so for the specific
20 purpose of improving the environmental
21 sustainability of base redevelopment.
22 For instance, just to give you an example,
23 we have agreed to acquire buffer lands around
24 the base, a limited Phase I development of
25 500,000 square feet of --
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1 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
2 room.)
3 MAYOR PINELLAS: -- combined cargo and
4 passenger facilities. We've agreed to a
5 restrictive Storm Water Management Plan, as well
6 as to a Noise, Management, and Mitigation Plan,
7 which has restricted passenger aircraft to those
8 carrying 30 passengers or less.
9 Unfortunately, the work being accomplished
10 through this time consuming process has,
11 in effect, been put on the shelf by members of
12 the Federal Inter-Agency Task Force and the
13 Department of Community Affairs.
14 And now, despite our good faith efforts,
15 and willingness to downsize the redevelopment of
16 the base, along with our effort to improve the
17 environmental viability of the surrounding area,
18 we are further entangled in a Supplemental
19 Environmental Impact Statement, a process that,
20 in effect, is attempting to ignore the existence
21 of a previous military facility whose impacts
22 were far greater while those national parks,
23 Biscayne National Park to the east, and
24 Everglades National Park to the west, flourished
25 and prospered.
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1 A process, ladies and gentlemen, that
2 further denies the need to replace South
3 Miami-Dade's economic engine by preventing even
4 a scaled down approach to redevelopment.
5 I think it's worth noting here that as
6 recently as two months ago, over
7 3,000 participants in Miami-Dade County's
8 economic summit reaffirmed the crucial need for
9 redevelopment of Homestead Air Force Base.
10 They expressed grave concerns over the
11 endless delays associated with regulatory
12 reviews at the State and Federal levels, and
13 project funding impacts associated with these
14 delays.
15 They expressed sheer and utter frustration
16 over why -- why a viable, sensible plan for the
17 conversion and civilian use of the base with
18 appropriate environmental safeguards was being
19 met with such resistance. I think it's a worthy
20 question.
21 Nearly three years have been consumed in
22 attempts to reconcile the land use amendments
23 for redevelopment of the base through what was
24 ascribed as an expedited process.
25 The Administration Commission has been
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1 advised of Miami-Dade County's legal position on
2 the issues of jurisdiction and adjudication.
3 And we believe that neither the statute nor
4 precedent sanctioned the actions recommended in
5 the Administration Commission's draft order.
6 The reason Chapter 288 is silent to any
7 administrative hearing process is to expedite
8 the review, and to keep it out of arenas like
9 DOAH.
10 Miami-Dade County's position is strongly
11 supported by many folks who are here. The
12 Cities of Homestead and Florida City, the
13 Homestead-Florida City Chamber of Commerce, the
14 Beacon Council, the Vision Council, the
15 Dade County Farm Bureau, the Chamber South, the
16 Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, and the
17 Team South Miami-Dade, some of whom will be
18 speaking in just a moment.
19 Despite the delays, Miami-Dade County has
20 acted in good faith by accepting the majority of
21 the State's recommended actions and amendments,
22 and has even proceeded with studies on storm
23 water habitat and noise to develop significant
24 mitigation measures as identified here.
25 Our community is asking for your help by
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1 allowing nearly 350,000 square feet of new
2 development on the base, the equivalent of an
3 average office building. That's all we're
4 asking for.
5 This is a radical downsizing from the
6 2 million square feet approved by the Department
7 of Community Affairs in March of 1996 in the
8 predevelopment stage.
9 We're asking for the capability for
10 passenger aircraft of no more than 30 seats,
11 with lesser noise than military aircraft, to
12 take off from the base.
13 By way of comparison, a Federal Express
14 facility at Miami International Airport, which
15 we are currently constructing, will absorb in
16 excess of a million square feet of area.
17 You have my assurance as Mayor that
18 Miami-Dade County has done everything within our
19 regulatory powers to provide the requisite
20 environmental safeguards for sustainable
21 growth.
22 We are, therefore, urging each of you not
23 to further delay the process, and to approve
24 Miami-Dade County's suggested land use
25 amendments now.
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1 Jobs -- jobs, the economy, livelihoods are
2 at stake. And I hope that these matters carry
3 considerable weight as you cast your vote this
4 afternoon.
5 Thank you for having me here today.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I ask --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
8 TREASURER NELSON: -- a question?
9 Mr. Mayor, in an area that you say has been
10 economically ravaged in the aftermath of the
11 hurricane, I want to thank you for going on the
12 record as you did with regard to the saving of
13 the jobs with American Bankers --
14 MAYOR PINELLAS: Yes, sir.
15 TREASURER NELSON: -- Insurance Company.
16 And now that that acquisition has occurred,
17 it is left to us in the Department of Insurance
18 to determine whether or not we're going to issue
19 the license.
20 And one of the things that we'll be looking
21 at is what is the guarantee that the jobs will
22 remain.
23 Now, that's a -- that's an intro for me to
24 ask you, recognizing that Homestead Air Force
25 base was the major employer in South Dade.
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1 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
2 TREASURER NELSON: It is my understanding
3 that at the height of its aircraft activity,
4 that there were approximately 175,000 flights a
5 year coming out of Homestead Air Force Base.
6 Is that a correct figure?
7 MAYOR PINELLAS: I believe it is. We
8 have --
9 MS. O'NEIL: Yes.
10 MAYOR PINELLAS: Yes. The answer is yes.
11 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Now, it is also
12 my understanding, in Phase I, you are projecting
13 some kind of de minimis number of flights.
14 But beyond Phase I, what you are projecting
15 is that the airport would not have any more than
16 what was, in fact, flying out of Homestead
17 Air Force Base?
18 MAYOR PINELLAS: Phase I -- you're
19 absolutely correct, Mr. Nelson, Phase I
20 contemplates approximately 12 to 16 flights a
21 day.
22 And, Sandy, I don't know if you want to
23 elaborate a little bit on that --
24 TREASURER NELSON: Just -- I just want --
25 MAYOR PINELLAS: The --
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1 TREASURER NELSON: -- to get a concept.
2 The overall size of the projected activity.
3 MS. O'NEIL: The overall size of the
4 projected activity will fall well below the
5 build-out activity of the military base when it
6 was an active facility. That's --
7 TREASURER NELSON: Below 175,000 flights a
8 year.
9 MS. O'NEIL: We had projected that we would
10 not have in excess of 200,000. But that had
11 been if we were able to start on this project a
12 number of years ago.
13 So our projections have decreased because
14 of the fact that we have been delayed for around
15 five years in initiation of the effort.
16 TREASURER NELSON: All right.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Just -- I want to
18 understand. Phase I is going to be about
19 what -- how many flights?
20 MS. O'NEIL: Twelve to sixteen passenger
21 flights a day, six to eight potential cargo
22 flights a day. And that is the cap on that
23 activity.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. That's all in
25 Phase I that you --
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1 MS. O'NEIL: Yes, sir.
2 MAYOR PINELLAS: That's correct.
3 TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now, as
4 probably many at this table, we've had the
5 opportunity to fly in high performance military
6 aircraft. And there are not a lot of sound
7 suppression systems on the military aircraft.
8 And, of course, when you compare the noise
9 envelope in a commercial airport that has no
10 more than the same number of flights in an
11 Air Force base, is it not logical to conclude
12 that the noise pollution is going to be a lot
13 less than it was at Homestead Air Force Base?
14 MS. O'NEIL: That is correct. And then
15 also --
16 TREASURER NELSON: Okay.
17 MS. O'NEIL: -- further --
18 TREASURER NELSON: Now, I had this one
19 further question I wanted to ask the Mayor. In
20 trying to understand what are your alternatives,
21 Miami International has to have expansion.
22 MAYOR PINELLAS: That's correct.
23 TREASURER NELSON: And it is landlocked.
24 Okay. As I see it, you only have three
25 other alternatives: You can't go into the
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1 Everglades. So you either have the expansion of
2 Fort Lauderdale, of Opa-Locka, or Homestead.
3 Are those your three alternatives?
4 MAYOR PINELLAS: Commissioner Nelson,
5 you're absolutely correct. Even assuming the
6 Federal government allows us to proceed with a
7 fourth runway at Miami International Airport,
8 which we are pursuing at this time, we will
9 meet -- meet maximum peek capacity of about
10 sixty-three to seventy million passengers a
11 year, probably by the year 2010, which means --
12 I mean, that is it. That airport cannot grow
13 any further.
14 The alternatives are Homestead Air Force
15 Base. They have included that old site 14 or
16 19, somewhere in the Everglades, something that
17 I have serious reservations about.
18 In fact, I'm sure as all of you know, I
19 have held a line on the urban development line
20 in Miami-Dade County, and indicated clearly that
21 we have to grow within our established urban
22 boundary.
23 And then, of course, there is the option of
24 Fort Lauderdale.
25 There is some discussion by some that a
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1 regional airport approach could work. But,
2 again, if you straddle that western boundary of
3 Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade Counties,
4 you really end -- you have to end up somewhere
5 beyond the urban development line, and I don't
6 think anyone wants to go there.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, just one
8 quick question --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- of the Mayor. And
11 it's just confusion on my part.
12 I continue to hear interchangeably square
13 footage. What is the maximum square footage
14 build-out under the Miami-Dade plan?
15 MAYOR PINELLAS: What we are requesting
16 right now is 350,000 square feet of new area.
17 Three hundred and fifty thousand square feet.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir. But --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is it 350,000 square feet
20 new, 180,000 square feet renovation? Is that --
21 MAYOR PINELLAS: That is -- I think it's
22 150,000 renovation.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Does anybody know
24 where the figure four million one hundred
25 thousand is coming from, in terms of maximum
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1 build-out? That includes retail, industrial,
2 et cetera, et cetera.
3 MS. O'NEIL: That figure had been plac--
4 based on a plan that our development partner had
5 submitted. And that has been considerably
6 revised downward because of new projections that
7 we have had in marketing studies that are yet to
8 be done. So --
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Was that the Mayor's
10 then revised figure of two million -- you used
11 another figure there, Mr. Mayor, when you were
12 speaking. Two million and change.
13 MAYOR PINELLAS: I think there's a
14 difference between --
15 MS. O'NEIL: Yeah.
16 MAYOR PINELLAS: -- the developer's plan
17 and the County's plan.
18 MS. O'NEIL: The two million square feet
19 was what had originally been allocated for the
20 County in a predevelopment agreement that had
21 been signed by the Department of
22 Community Affairs in 1996. And that was in
23 force over the time period that we were
24 negotiating the 288 process.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay.
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1 Thank you, Governor.
2 MAYOR PINELLAS: Thank you.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
4 DR. BRADLEY: Those -- as you know,
5 Governor, questions don't count against time.
6 Those questions were about -- a little over
7 6 minutes.
8 Let me just ask Teresa to break in here for
9 a second.
10 MS. TINKER: I just want to clarify
11 something real quick on that question.
12 The plan that was adopted by the County
13 provides for over four million square feet of
14 development over time. That is the plan that's
15 before you today.
16 Phase I of that plan, which would allow the
17 County to proceed with the -- with development,
18 is the 530,000 square feet that the Mayor
19 mentioned.
20 But the full scope of the plan is over
21 four million square feet. Phase I is the lesser
22 amount that you were asking about.
23 DR. BRADLEY: The -- the next speaker,
24 Governor, is Mayor Shiver of the City of
25 Homestead, and President of the
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1 Homestead-Florida City Chamber of Commerce.
2 MAYOR SHIVER: Thank you, Governor Chiles,
3 members of the Cabinet. Thank you for giving me
4 the opportunity to speak to you today regarding
5 such a dear issue to South Dade.
6 Governor Chiles, I want to especially
7 thank you for your leadership in creating the
8 Governor's Commission for a Sustainable South
9 Florida. I know that this group -- I was
10 recently appointed to that group, and I know
11 that this group will balance the economy and the
12 environment, because we know that one cannot
13 exist without the other.
14 I represent a constituency that's really
15 frustrated and angry with the years of neglect
16 and broken promises. Through no fault of our
17 own, in August of 1992, our community was turned
18 into a pile of rubble. Our economy centered
19 around Homestead Air Force Base, which provided
20 more than 10,000 jobs and an economic impact of
21 over 400 million dollars a year.
22 Our community had a strong middle class,
23 much of which were military retirees, who lived
24 in small homes or trailer parks, shopped at the
25 BX, and used the base hospital.
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1 Hurricane Andrew took that away from us.
2 The impact of a direct hit by one of the
3 great storms of all time is seared into the
4 memory of American people around the country.
5 Ask people around the country about Homestead,
6 Florida, and they remember the vivid pictures of
7 devastation, tent cities, National Guard troops
8 serving food and water along with the
9 Red Cross.
10 I'm sure many of you remember that -- those
11 pictures yourselves.
12 Following the hurricane, the residents of
13 South Dade formed bonds that will last a
14 lifetime as we came out of our broken homes and
15 helped each other survive.
16 Together, we're counting on the principle
17 of our nation and our state which promises that
18 communities, which by sheer luck become victims
19 of nature, should be allowed to return, as much
20 as possible, to predisaster status.
21 Has that happened in South Dade? No, it
22 hasn't. Because no matter how much assistance
23 was pumped in after Hurricane Andrew, we've been
24 denied the largest piece of our economic puzzle,
25 the air base on which our economy depended.
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1 To illustrate the impact, let's compare
2 employment statistics between South Dade as a
3 whole, and the deep South Miami-Dade County that
4 I represent. Below Kendall Drive, which is
5 roughly center line of the county, which is
6 Southwest Eighty-Eighth Street, the area as a
7 whole has come back, employment being up nearly
8 40,000 between 1990 and 1996.
9 Now, that roughly cuts the county in half
10 at Northwest Eighty-- or excuse me -- Southwest
11 Eighty-Eighth Street.
12 But in our community, which is a little
13 further south, true South Dade, Two Hundred and
14 Sixty-Fourth Street, South, the numbers are
15 still down more than 9,000 from the 1990
16 employment levels.
17 To make that even more meaningful, we had
18 28,700 jobs in 1990, and --
19 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
20 MAYOR SHIVER: -- only 19,600 in 1996.
21 Short by more than 30 percent still from our
22 pre-hurricane levels.
23 What would Homestead be like today if
24 Hurricane Andrew never happened? Well, I --
25 I think the Air Force base would still be
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1 operating as it did for more than 50 years.
2 We would still be largely a middle class
3 community, heavy with military retirees.
4 Would the Air Force base have been closed
5 for other reasons? Probably not.
6 Would our economy have an indigency rate of
7 30 percent?
8 Would the impact of air traffic on our
9 national parks be a subject for debate, as we're
10 here today.
11 We talk of comparative hardships and public
12 interest. I hope none of you ever have to live
13 through the hardships that were brought to us by
14 Hurricane Andrew. And I hope you see the public
15 interest in restoring our economy.
16 In the absence of an active duty military
17 base, the only way we see to restore our
18 10,000 jobs, and over 400 million dollar impact,
19 is to use the property for a carefully planned,
20 and an environmentally sensitive commercial
21 Air Force base -- or excuse me -- commercial
22 base.
23 Our people should not suffer for decades
24 because of an accident of nature. In the
25 absence of an alternative, we need the airfield,
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1 in some form, to restore our economy.
2 I know you've heard a great deal from
3 environmental groups opposing our plans for the
4 base property. For whatever reason, some have
5 been intentionally misrepresenting our plans as
6 well.
7 We want to use the one runway facility at
8 the base to operate a commercial airport, in
9 some form, with a level of activity very
10 similar, and actually less than the former
11 Air Force base.
12 At the time when we want to expand beyond
13 that level, we would be involved in further
14 detailed studies that are mandated by law.
15 Beyond the air base, our most precious
16 economic asset is our two national parks.
17 Everyone in South Dade understands the value of
18 ecotourism to our economy.
19 To suggest that we are reckless about the
20 environment just shows how little some of the
21 groups of the environmental community know and
22 understand about us.
23 It is meaningful that every government
24 agency which has reviewed our plans for Phase I
25 has found that the Environmental Impact
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1 Statement that was done is acceptable.
2 Yet these groups are national in scope,
3 well funded, and are pictured in the good
4 guys -- as the good guys in the media. They
5 intend to tie up this project in legal
6 challenges and appeals whenever they feel --
7 they feel that they can affect the cause.
8 We can't afford to fight back, and we can't
9 afford to wait for decades. It is frustrating
10 for us to have so little control over our own
11 future.
12 Homestead today is still a nice, family
13 community. It's a homogenous mix of white,
14 black pioneers who settled the area; and a large
15 Hispanic population, mostly Mexican Americans,
16 who come to our area for agricultural purposes
17 in the industry.
18 Our restaurants actually serve the best
19 Mexican food in -- you'll ever eat. Our
20 historic downtown area is charming, lined with
21 antique shops and coffee shops.
22 We have the best climate in the
23 United States. The only tropical botanical
24 garden in the United States. We are the gateway
25 to the Florida Keys; we are, in short -- we're a
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1 short drive to Miami, one of the most exciting
2 cities in the world.
3 Housing is affordable, the lifestyle is
4 comfortable, and people know each other. And we
5 want to maintain that hometown atmosphere.
6 But rebuilding is a long and arduous
7 process without the air base. What a wonderful
8 opportunity this can be for the State, taking
9 our unemployed off welfare and putting them back
10 to work. Even minimal construction activity can
11 bring jobs to those who need them most.
12 We're trying very hard to forsake our
13 dreams of a rebuilt air base; a green,
14 environmentally sensitive airport in which
15 development and the environment can really
16 coexist.
17 Please give us our chance.
18 And thank you for the opportunity to speak
19 to you today.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
21 DR. BRADLEY: Okay. Governor, we have
22 about 5 minutes left, and Mayor Wallace of the
23 Home-- of Florida City is here to address you.
24 MAYOR WALLACE: Thank you.
25 Thank you to Governor Chiles and members of
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1 this august Cabinet. On behalf of the people of
2 South Dade, and Florida City particularly, I'd
3 like to say I come before you not ungrateful
4 with the heroic and enlightened efforts of our
5 Governor and the State Legislature in the
6 aftermath of Hurricane Andrew.
7 Florida City exists today because of that
8 heroic and enlightened leadership. Your
9 Trust Fund saved us.
10 But after having survived the operating
11 table, through your great efforts, we're now
12 asking that you not allow us to die of an
13 economic broken heart. We feel that in
14 South Dade -- such is the importance of
15 Homestead Air Force Base. It represents jobs
16 that we need, jobs that we must have. And our
17 economy simply can't survive without those
18 jobs.
19 We're not unconcerned about the
20 environment. As a father and a husband, I want
21 my kids to grow up with the same environmental
22 advantages I've had. I want them to see the
23 Everglades, I want them to have clean water, and
24 breathe clean air. We're not unmindful of these
25 things and the concerns you have about them.
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1 But we're also concerned about the survival
2 of another endangered species, it's called the
3 working men and women of South Dade. They're
4 part of the environment, too, and they deserve a
5 chance to survive.
6 We're asking that the vision that you've
7 previously shown be shown again. We believe the
8 plan currently in existence is -- addresses the
9 environmental concerns of our area.
10 As an old country lawyer, it's been said
11 that if a questionable position exists, it's
12 like wine, let it age awhile and it gets
13 better. Such is the tactic of delay.
14 But at some point, economic justice delayed
15 becomes economic justice simply denied, without
16 ever having it truly heard. We feel such is the
17 course that we happen to be on today, one of
18 delay, and one of avoiding -- avoiding the
19 issue.
20 We're asking that this body look firmly at
21 the plan currently before you. We believe it
22 addresses the environmental concerns, and we
23 believe if you would look at it in a fair,
24 unbiased way, which I know you will, I think
25 you'll see that the people of South Dade deserve
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1 and need Homestead Air Force Base, we need and
2 deserve those jobs, and let's continue the good
3 work you've already started. You saved us from
4 the hurricane. Don't let us down the vine.
5 Thank you so much.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, Mayor.
7 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, we have about
8 two-and-a-half minutes left. And we have four
9 people.
10 The first is Mr. Ed Bell representing the
11 Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce.
12 MR. BELL: The Mayor's staff has indicated
13 that I should be very brief, and I think I can
14 do that easily.
15 I have a resolution here which I will pass
16 out from the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce.
17 I am Chairman of their Aviation Alliance.
18 I just want to emphasize two or three
19 things about this project and why we support it.
20 We have gone on record as supporting the
21 conversion of the air base for commercial use,
22 but it isn't really much of a conversion. The
23 military operation that was there was a highly
24 intense use, and this Phase I is going to
25 represent far less in the way of flight activity
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1 and general commercial use and disruption that
2 was -- than was experienced from the military
3 use.
4 Seldom have we seen a project that's
5 undergone the kind of environmental scrutiny and
6 regulatory scrutiny that this one has, and come
7 out of it favorably reviewed as it has. That's
8 another reason we support it.
9 And the third, and perhaps equally vital
10 reason is, that it's a jobs issue. And we come
11 from an area that's not experiencing the kind of
12 job growth that other areas in the state and the
13 nation are, and this is very crucial to our
14 economy, and we -- we support the project
15 wholeheartedly.
16 Thank you.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
18 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, I think -- we have
19 three remaining speakers. They're all going to
20 come up together, I believe.
21 Bob Epling representing Team South Dade and
22 the Vision Council, Joe Grimes representing the
23 Chamber South and the Beacon Council, and
24 Tom Kirby representing the Dade County
25 Farm Bureau. And they have almost a minute
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1 left.
2 MR. EPLING: Governor, members of the
3 Cabinet, I'd just like to very briefly underline
4 with integrity about the state of the economy.
5 As Commissioner Nelson mentioned, our
6 economy has been ravaged. As Commiss-- as
7 Comptroller Milligan knows, if you look at the
8 institutional deposits of the financial
9 institutions, which would include everyone in
10 South Dade, we're about 8 percent -- without
11 being inflation adjusted, we're about 8 percent
12 behind where we were prior to the storm.
13 There's no doubt about it. Jobs is what's
14 needed in South Dade. There's no doubt about
15 it. The base is an integral part of creating
16 jobs in South Dade.
17 It's hard for some of us who've been
18 there -- and, Governor, you know you and I sat
19 in my office with no carpet and no windows after
20 the storm, and we talked about the air base and
21 the importance of the significance of bringing
22 it back.
23 But we haven't done it yet. But we're
24 going to do it, and we haven't given up.
25 The thing that probably puzzles me is that
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1 as long as I've been in Homestead, which has
2 been some forty some years, we've had an
3 air base there. It functioned, and it
4 functioned well, and the parks have prospered,
5 being good neighbors.
6 We're going to have less flights than we
7 had in the air base, and we're going to take all
8 the environmental steps necessary to protect the
9 parks.
10 I think the two can be compatible and live
11 together and I hope you'll find your way to
12 that.
13 Thank you very much.
14 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, we've run out of
15 the time for this side.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's give a couple of
17 minutes to --
18 DR. BRADLEY: Okay.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- these people if
20 they -- they've come up here.
21 DR. BRADLEY: Okay.
22 MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Governor, and
23 Cabinet. I'm wearing several hats --
24 Joe Grimes. I'm wearing several hats. I'm
25 Chairman of Chamber South, which is the service
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1 area south of Coral Gables down to Homestead,
2 east to Biscayne Bay, and west to the
3 Everglades. About 3,000 members.
4 We are also a member of the Coalition of
5 Chambers in Dade County, 15,000 members.
6 And I'm also representing Beacon Council.
7 All of these organizations have passed
8 resolutions endorsing the activities that you've
9 been listening to about the reuse of the
10 Air Force base.
11 Finally, recently I went to work for the
12 State of Florida in the WAGES -- with the State
13 WAGES Board, and I can tell you from that
14 perspective that this effort will add measurably
15 to the jobs that we need desperately in south
16 Dade County.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. KIRBY: Good afternoon, Governor, and
19 members of the Cabinet. My name is Tom Kirby.
20 I'm the Executive Director of the Dade County
21 Farm Bureau.
22 Governor, thank you for allowing us this
23 time to wrap up.
24 What I would like to say is is that you're
25 probably wondering what agriculture is concerned
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1 about the redevelopment of Homestead Air Force
2 Base for.
3 Our some 1200 active farming members and
4 their families in South Miami-Dade County live,
5 work, and play in that area of the county, and
6 it has become a real quality of life issue for
7 them; consequently, their interest in this
8 issue.
9 As you know, the main economic drive --
10 driver in South Dade right now is agriculture.
11 Agriculture being subjected, of course, to
12 the -- the whims of Mother Nature, NAFTA,
13 changing market conditions, Everglade
14 restoration efforts, et cetera, can find itself
15 to be a very cyclical situation as far as the
16 economy is concerned.
17 That is Dade County Farm Bureau's concern
18 with this issue.
19 And, Governor, with the indulgence of your
20 colleagues, I personally would like to take this
21 opportunity, since I probably won't have it
22 again, to address you as an elected official, to
23 thank you for your dedicated years of public
24 service here, and in Washington as well.
25 And I appeal to you, Governor, not only as
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1 a he coon --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Might have to give you
3 some more time if you --
4 TREASURER NELSON: I ask for unanimous
5 consent that the gentleman be granted an
6 additional 10 minutes.
7 MR. KIRBY: Governor, I appeal to you, not
8 only as a -- as a he coon, but as a native
9 Floridian, and as a southern gentleman, to
10 please do the right thing, and vote Homestead
11 Air Force Base issue up, and allow it to return
12 to its former stature in the community.
13 Thank you, sir.
14 And thank you for your service.
15 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, now we'll hear from
16 several of -- challengers. They have around
17 25 minutes actually.
18 The first one is Don Chinquina of the
19 Tropical Audubon Society.
20 MR. CHINQUINA: Thank you, Mr. Governor,
21 members of the Cabinet.
22 My name is Tom Chinquina. I'm the
23 Executive Director of Tropical Audubon Society,
24 which is an environmental organization based in
25 Dade County. We have 3,000 members. And we're
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1 primarily and exclusively concerned with issues
2 affecting Dade County, Florida.
3 I was born and raised there, and that's why
4 I chose to make this my life's work.
5 But this particular project that we come
6 before you on is one that I've been involved
7 with for the last three years, ever since the
8 whole process got started, since I got my job as
9 Executive Director. Four years ago, this has
10 been the signature project that I've been
11 involved with.
12 I've been at every meeting, every public
13 forum, I've been at several private meetings and
14 negotiating sessions, and there's quite a bit
15 that I've experienced through the last
16 three years in how this project has come
17 together.
18 One thing that I've come to understand is
19 we feel that this project, as we understand it,
20 would have at its worse case a catastrophic
21 effect on Biscayne National Park.
22 And we believe that the process of
23 approving the amendment today, as we see it
24 today, would, believe it or not, have a
25 catastrophic effect on the economy of
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1 South Dade. And I'd like to develop those two
2 arguments before you as we proceed.
3 First of all, this project goes beyond any
4 virtual planning. It's more like virtual
5 reality planning. You know, I mean, I've sat
6 through a lot of meetings and, quite frankly, we
7 have heard a lot of different versions as to
8 what this project is going to be.
9 And that's where the root of our concern
10 is. When I sat down with community leaders in
11 South Dade, going back as far as former Mayor
12 Ted DeMilly at Homestead, we heard that it was
13 going to be a small, regional airport with just
14 one runway, a few flights a day, and
15 everything's going to be fine. And that didn't
16 sound too bad.
17 Then I go to the 288 meetings, and I hear
18 the developer look me right in the eye and said,
19 it's going to be a growing reliever airport for
20 Miami International Airport, and it's going to
21 have impacts on the park, and 288 anticipated
22 impacts. And this was all said on the record,
23 and we should just get used to that. Well, we
24 weren't inclined to get used to it. That --
25 used to that scenario.
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1 Then we go -- turn to the County and say,
2 what is it, it's your airport, what's the
3 airport going to look like? And they bring out
4 site plans, square footages, buildings.
5 Well, that didn't help us understand the
6 number of flights, it didn't help us understand
7 the type of aircraft, it didn't help us
8 understand the frequency. We just kept coming
9 back to square footage.
10 But what we did learn in that particular
11 presentation was that that is critical. We have
12 to understand the square footage, because
13 square footage is the infrastructure that
14 determines how many flights you can have at its
15 maximum.
16 And then we found out that the County
17 doesn't have authority to curtail flights coming
18 into the airport. The County told us that if
19 we -- and the FAA later confirmed, that if you
20 build a facility that takes -- just pick a
21 number -- 1,000 flights a day, 1,000 flights
22 want to land there, the FAA says you have to do
23 it. And the County doesn't have the authority
24 to scale it back.
25 And that scared us, because what we were
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1 being asked to do was to approve a plan that we
2 didn't fully understand, based on future plans
3 and studies, with the promise of scaling back to
4 a level that would be compatible with the park
5 once we had the studies in place.
6 And we, quite frankly, almost agreed with
7 that scenario, till we learned about the FAA
8 involvement.
9 And that -- that really scares the heck out
10 of us.
11 Now, as we got into that, we began to
12 learn -- and you heard some of the numbers
13 today -- we've heard various scenarios about
14 flights. But we have heard things like 10 to
15 15 flights per day.
16 But last week at the Cabinet Aides meeting,
17 that was 10 to 15 flights per day for the next
18 10 to 15 years. And it's still the same today.
19 Every time we heard these scenarios, we
20 would look at a map that showed in dotted lines
21 a second runway. Now, of course, they've got to
22 go through a whole new process to get that
23 second runway approved.
24 But why is it on the map if it's only going
25 to be 10 to 15 flights per day? That's clearly
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1 a near term estimate.
2 We've also been asked not to worry, because
3 nothing bad's going to happen in the near term.
4 Well, you heard it today. Phase I is what we're
5 talking about.
6 Phase I has the potential to bring in these
7 extra flights, we believe. And Phase I implies
8 Phase II, Phase III, Phase IV.
9 Mr. Nelson, I'm glad that you brought up
10 the argument about Homestead Air Force base and
11 the existing airport, because there was another
12 airport in Miami that was a military base, and
13 it's called Miami International Airport.
14 My father worked there. He just retired
15 just a couple years ago after 40 years at Hertz
16 Rent A Car. And when he started there, you used
17 to drive cars out to the runway, park them on
18 the tarmac, people'd come off the planes, you'd
19 write your contract, and off you'd go. Well,
20 you don't do that any more.
21 And that's the principal difference between
22 a military airport and -- and a commercial
23 airport. It's not -- there are two problems.
24 One is frequency of flights, but the other is
25 the type of economic sprawl that is generated by
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1 a commercial airport.
2 Both airports have been there for
3 50 years. Look at what happened to the area
4 around Miami International Airport, look at the
5 surrounding lands around Homestead Air Force
6 Base.
7 That's the one major concern that we have
8 is the cumulative impacts of urban sprawl
9 covering over our open space and our aquifer.
10 And when that happens, we begin to lose the
11 groundwater flow into Biscayne National Park,
12 and that's where we begin to lose the biological
13 integrity of the park. And that's something
14 we're very concerned about.
15 The issue of noise is one -- you're right.
16 I mean, military aircrafts are a lot louder.
17 But I would submit to you that with the
18 exceptions of things like the Cuban missle
19 crisis, various invasion scenarios that occurred
20 in recent years, the flights have not been in
21 great numbers like they will be at a Miami
22 International Airport.
23 The Miami Herald reports, and the County
24 confirmed last week, we're looking at
25 200,000 flights a year at its maximum capacity.
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1 We've calculated -- I can't remember -- it was,
2 like, around 600 flights a day.
3 Now --
4 TREASURER NELSON: Is -- is that with two
5 runways?
6 MR. CHINQUINA: That, I understood, was
7 with one runway.
8 TREASURER NELSON: So -- so you're still
9 looking at -- at approximately the same number
10 of flights as were in the military base.
11 MR. CHINQUINA: But there's a difference.
12 I mean, the difference is -- and, remember, this
13 is -- we're talking Phase I. Remember Phase II,
14 Phase III, Phase IV.
15 The difference is --
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, wait a minute. I
17 don't understand. Phase I at 15 to 35 flights
18 and whatnot. And now we're at 200,000.
19 I mean --
20 MR. CHINQUINA: Well --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- how did we get there?
22 MR. CHINQUINA: That's a good -- those are
23 the kinds of questions that I began to ask when
24 we get into the County's scenario.
25 We hear 10 to 15 flights for the next 10 to
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1 15 years, per day. But then as -- but the
2 capacity there is for up to 200,000, and we've
3 heard that that has to do with market
4 conditions.
5 So it's a question that we -- we debated
6 last week, and it's one that I get confused
7 about, too, as to what is it we're really
8 talking about?
9 I mean, that gets back to the fundamental
10 heart of the question. And why is the County
11 telling us 656 flights last week, 10 to
12 15 flights today.
13 I mean, but the difference that causes us a
14 concern on that particular issue is the
15 frequency of the flights. As these planes take
16 off at over 2 minutes -- 2 or 3 minutes apart,
17 it's not so much that the aircraft that the
18 military uses were louder, it's that the
19 commercial flights become more frequent, and
20 they come over every 2 minutes during peak
21 periods, and they fly right over the
22 Visitors' Center at Biscayne National Park and
23 Elliott Key.
24 So those are our concerns on -- on that
25 particular issue.
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1 But then the next thing that we begin to
2 hear is that we're going -- we have all these
3 studies in place --
4 And I'm going to wrap it up, because I know
5 I have other people waiting to talk.
6 We have other -- we have these studies that
7 are in place that are going to protect your
8 interest, and we're going to understand this as
9 we get forward, just let us start it now.
10 Well, one of them is the Environmental
11 Impact Statement. That's what this amendment is
12 based on is the Environmental Impact Statement,
13 which was found inadequate by the Federal
14 government, because it did not look at impacts
15 outside the base, it didn't address the
16 cumulative impacts, it ignored Biscayne National
17 Park -- in fact, labeled it the
18 Atlantic Ocean -- and did not anticipate the
19 noise issue that we talked about a little bit
20 here.
21 Additionally, there are two other studies
22 that are on the table that we're being asked to
23 use as our assurance that we're going to
24 understand these issues eventually.
25 One is the -- I forgot the name of it. The
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1 Watershed -- Integrated Watershed Plan, which I
2 am on a committee that helped formulate and
3 bring forward to the County. It was a committee
4 of farmers, business interests, and
5 environmentalists.
6 That one is not funded yet. The County is
7 committed to fund part of it, but it's based on
8 matches from the District and the
9 Corps of Engineers. That's up in the air. We
10 don't know that we're going to get that
11 funding. We hope we do. But we don't know if
12 we're going to get it.
13 The other one is the Ag Retention Study.
14 I'm not sure where that one's going right now.
15 The Farm Bureau, I believe --
16 And here, you can tell me if I'm wrong.
17 -- is in the posture where they're opposing
18 the Ag Retention Study.
19 So those two particular ones, we don't know
20 where they're going to go. We hope they're --
21 they will -- we hope that they will come about.
22 But the fact is, we're talking about
23 building a facility now based on answers that
24 are going to come from these future studies.
25 Our suggestion to you is that we wait for
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1 the SEIS to be completed. Let's coordinate it
2 all. And that's why I say that the decision
3 today would have a catastrophic effect on the
4 citizens of South Dade County.
5 And it's the same argument I asked -- I
6 made when I asked them to support the SEIS
7 initiative, that if you delay, you're just
8 setting yourself up for future challenges.
9 Future -- I mean, if we don't coordinate these
10 studies, there's not going to be agreement
11 today, there may not be agreement if we don't
12 coordinate the studies.
13 You are setting yourself up for future
14 challenges that may come in the future as people
15 begin to try to grapple with this enormous
16 project that's before us.
17 I told them before the best route to -- to
18 a quick solution on this particular project was
19 to support the SEIS. We said that a
20 year-and-a-half ago.
21 Had they done that, the SEIS would be done
22 today, and I wouldn't be making this argument
23 here today, because we would have a document
24 that we can base our planning efforts on.
25 We don't have that now, and we think it's
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1 premature for you to -- to vote on this
2 amendment at this time.
3 Thank you.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
5 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I make --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
7 TREASURER NELSON: -- one comment.
8 I appreciate your argument. And I
9 particularly appreciate your concern about the
10 urban sprawl.
11 Where I think your argument breaks down is
12 when you look at an Air Force base, at
13 175,000 flights, just divide that on an average
14 of 365 --
15 MR. CHINQUINA: Uh-hum.
16 TREASURER NELSON: -- days a year, and it's
17 somewhere near 500 flights a day, assuming that
18 they were even throughout the seven-day week.
19 Now, your -- what the Air Force base was
20 flying, no sound suppression jets, 500 a day,
21 compared with what they are proposing here, I
22 just don't see the logic of your argument.
23 MR. CHINQUINA: Well --
24 TREASURER NELSON: The urban sprawl
25 argument I understand, and I think that's a good
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1 concern, and you ought to articulate that.
2 MR. CHINQUINA: Right.
3 Mr. -- Mr. Governor, if I may.
4 Mr. -- Mr. Nelson, the one thing I -- I
5 didn't mention when I mentioned that is that
6 we're not convinced that 656 flights a day were
7 flying out of Homestead Air Force Base.
8 And I think it might be best if we wait for
9 Superintendent Frost to come up here, because
10 he -- his office is under that flight line.
11 We're not sure where that number came
12 from. And I'd be interested to learn from the
13 County or the Air Force where that number
14 existed at.
15 But that is a lot of flights. I don't -- I
16 haven't seen that happening there, and
17 Superintendent Frost told us at lunch, he hadn't
18 seen it either, nor had his predecessor.
19 So I think that's a -- I think we need to
20 learn more about that particular number, to be
21 quite honest with you.
22 Thank you.
23 TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
24 DR. BRADLEY: Next we have
25 Mr. Richard Frost of the National Park Service.
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1 MR. FROST: Governor Chiles, members of the
2 Cabinet, I am Dick Frost. I'm Superintendent of
3 Biscayne National Park.
4 And I'm here representing Biscayne and
5 Everglades National Parks as petitioners.
6 I will take a moment before I read my
7 remarks to follow up on Don Chinquina's
8 comment.
9 Having talked to the former Superintendent,
10 and also talked to my employees who worked here
11 when the air base was in full operation before
12 the storm, and recognizing that five hundred and
13 some odd flights a day -- or six hundred and
14 some odd flights a day would come out to be,
15 what, a flight every 2 minutes or every
16 5 minutes, or something like that, my employees
17 and the park sup-- previous superintendent say
18 that there was never anything like that kind of
19 activity.
20 Being fighter jets, if there had been that
21 kind of activity, with the tight circle they
22 make around our headquarters, we would have --
23 not have been able to conduct any business, nor
24 entertain our visitors. Under those conditions,
25 there would have been a constant roar, and that
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1 did not occur.
2 I don't know what the numbers were. We
3 didn't -- we didn't count. But we know that
4 that kind of condition didn't exist.
5 Proceeding with my remarks. Nearly a year
6 ago, following the informal administrative
7 hearing, DCA issued essentially the same
8 recommendations as Secretary Murley has
9 presented to you today.
10 These recommendations are note-- noteworthy
11 for two seemingly contrary provisions.
12 First DCA concludes, in very clear terms, that
13 impacts on natural resources, including the two
14 national parks, have not yet been adequately
15 identified or analyzed.
16 But second, inexplicably, DCA recommends
17 that construction be allowed to begin, and even
18 be completed, without those impacts being known.
19 Last December the U.S. Air Force and the
20 Federal Aviation Administration reached the
21 conclusion that expected impacts are still
22 poorly understood, and, therefore, a
23 Supplemental EIS is needed to reassess all
24 possible impacts, not just those on natural
25 resources.
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1 The Air Force and FAA explicitly stated
2 that changes in the County's redevelopment plan
3 since 1994 have made the original EIS obsolete.
4 Keep in mind that this means that once the
5 SEIS, the Supplemental EIS, is complete, the
6 Air Force must also reconsider its original
7 decision to convey the air base property.
8 Now, no one anticipates that conveyance
9 would be denied. But we cannot know what
10 conditions might be attached to that
11 conveyance.
12 The National Park Service has always
13 supported redevelopment that is linked to
14 thorough analysis. And so we cannot support the
15 approval of any specific development plans that
16 do not address the forthcoming SEIS, and a new
17 decision by the Air Force.
18 The National Park Service is a cooperating
19 agency in the SEIS. We believe that the
20 extensive collective efforts that are now being
21 applied to it can produce information and
22 analysis of impacts far more thorough than any
23 that have been produced so far.
24 In fact, the SEIS should provide just what
25 Section 288.975 requires for impact
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1 identification.
2 If you approve a specific redevelopment
3 plan now, such a plan will likely become
4 obsolete, entangled in legal confusion once the
5 SEIS is completed, and once the Air Force issues
6 a new decision.
7 In its January 15th transmittal letter to
8 you, Secretary Murley himself calls attention to
9 these new circumstances. He writes: The
10 Department recommends that Miami-Dade County,
11 and the Administration Commission, give close
12 thought whether to pursue procedural options for
13 coordinating the State's reuse planning process
14 with the Federal SEIS process.
15 Biscayne and Everglades National Parks
16 agree with Secretary Murley's suggestion, and
17 strongly urge you to take action that ensures
18 that the findings of the Supplemental EIS and
19 the resulting Air Force decisions will be
20 applied to Miami-Dade County's planning for the
21 future of Homestead Air Force Base.
22 Thank you.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
24 DR. BRADLEY: Governor, there's about
25 13 minutes left.
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1 We have John Mitchell of the National
2 Audubon Society.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Governor and members of the
4 Cabinet, thank you very much for entertaining us
5 for today's issue.
6 I would like to point out that you have two
7 things before you today. One is a redevelopment
8 plan of Dade County for redevelopment of the
9 former Homestead Air Force Base, and you also
10 have a Petition for Administrative Hearing filed
11 by the Sierra Club and another party.
12 With regard to the redevelopment plan,
13 there are a number of issues that are dispute --
14 that are in dispute with regard to that plan.
15 There are a number of facts that have not been
16 resolved.
17 We believe that the particular plan that's
18 before you today is not in compliance with
19 statute. I do not say that in a pejorative
20 sense. It's not a situation where Dade County
21 or the Department of Community Affairs has in
22 any way failed to proceed with the procedural
23 requirements of Chapter 288.
24 But we believe that the requirement in the
25 Act -- in the statute that the County or the
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1 applicant do everything possible to comply with
2 Federal studies and activities has not been
3 achieved simply because the Federal government
4 decided in December that a Supplemental
5 Environmental Impact Statement is required in
6 this situation.
7 It's regrettable that the delays have
8 occurred in this case. Audubon is not opposed
9 to redevelopment of Homestead Air Force Base.
10 In fact, we believe that those sorts of
11 activities are important and are necessary for
12 the State.
13 We do believe, however, that the
14 redevelopment of military bases should be taken
15 as an opportunity to use every possible avenue
16 in order to make sure that such redevelopment is
17 done properly, based upon information that we
18 have today with regard to environmental impacts.
19 With respect to the requests for a formal
20 administrative hearing, there has been some
21 discussion that the 288 process does not
22 specifically provide for that.
23 I would like to point out, however, that in
24 Chapter 288, there is specific language that
25 contemplates review by appellate bodies in case
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1 of dispute, or -- or in case of situations where
2 issues are not resolved.
3 And I'll quote from the statute. The
4 final -- and this is in Chapter 288.
5 The final word of the Administration
6 Commission is subject to appeal pursuant to
7 Section 120.68. Chapter 120.68 provides that
8 the Court shall remand a case to the Agency for
9 further proceedings consistent with the Court's
10 decision to set-aside -- or set-aside agency
11 action as appropriate when it finds that there
12 has been no hearing prior to agency action and a
13 reviewing court finds that the validity of the
14 action depends upon disputed facts.
15 I would put forward to you that it's
16 evident from the discussions today, and the
17 testimony today, that there are issues of fact
18 that are in dispute; that there has been no
19 opportunity to resolve those issues; that in the
20 alternative, if a finding is not made, that a
21 decision at this point is premature based upon
22 the fact that the Federal studies -- the Federal
23 SEIS is not complete, then we would ask that an
24 opportunity be provided to resolve the issues of
25 disputed fact, which can only be done in some
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1 sort of a fact-finding hearing.
2 Thank you very much.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
4 DR. BRADLEY: Next we have Paul Schwiep of
5 the Friends of the Everglades. And we have
6 about eight-and-a-half minutes left.
7 MR. SCHWIEP: Good afternoon, Governor,
8 fellow Cabinet members, Paul Schwiep on behalf
9 of the Friends of the Everglades.
10 I also represent the Sierra Club in the
11 challenge that's been filed to the
12 Water Management District permit that the County
13 seeks precisely for the construction of
14 Phase I.
15 And I have found that the confusion this
16 afternoon with respect to the scope of Phase I
17 is informative and illustrative of precisely why
18 the request for an administrative hearing with
19 respect to this dispute is appropriate.
20 In the ERP application before the
21 District -- and recall that this was an
22 application to permit only Phase I, which I
23 understand from Mayor Pinellas' comments that
24 the County is now seeking.
25 -- the County represented to the
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1 Water Management District in response to a
2 request specifically on this issue, that it
3 projected from Phase I, without any other
4 developments, 236,000 flights at Homestead
5 Regional Airport.
6 Moreover, the County informed the District
7 that at its busiest, Homestead Air Force Base,
8 when it was in full operation, flew no more than
9 107,000 flights. And of those flights, only
10 7,000 were cargo jets, and the rest of it was
11 military fighter jets.
12 So we are talking about from Phase I a
13 dramatic increase in the level of activity
14 that's been proposed. That's number one.
15 Number two, in response to a specific
16 request from the Water Management District as to
17 Phase I to cap operations within the -- the
18 military's operations, the County responded to
19 the Water Management District that it was not
20 able to do that because the Federal Aviation
21 Administration prohibited the County as the
22 operator of this airport from capping flights.
23 And that is in a County document given to
24 the District that says they couldn't cap their
25 operation.
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1 Moreover, as you may know, the ERP
2 application hearing has been stayed. That's as
3 of this past Friday, on March 20, Administrative
4 Law Judge Kirkland entered an order in response
5 to Miami-Dade County's request for an abatement
6 that stayed that case.
7 And I want to read briefly from -- from the
8 transcript of that hearing where they requested
9 a hearing. Dade County argued that a stay with
10 respect to the ERP process for Phase I was
11 appropriate because of the Supplemental
12 Environmental Impact Statement.
13 And they said: The whole purpose is,
14 before the Federal government can dispose of the
15 property, they have got to do this EIS to see if
16 the project is appropriate.
17 So what we're going to be looking at is the
18 potential change and whether or not the project
19 can be transferred to us.
20 So the ownership issue is still dynamic and
21 a potential change in the extent of the project
22 and nature of the project in order to make sure
23 that it's environmentally sound.
24 And I'm here this afternoon to tell you,
25 the Friends of the Everglades agrees with
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1 Miami-Dade County, it is appropriate to stay
2 consideration of Phase I pending completion of
3 the SEIS.
4 The County can't have it both ways. It's
5 argued that the ER-- in the ERP context that we
6 shouldn't make any decisions about Phase I until
7 the SEIS is done. It can now take the position
8 that it would be appropriate for this Cabinet to
9 make a decision as to a land use plan for
10 Phase I.
11 The -- the decision before the Cabinet
12 would be much more difficult this afternoon had
13 not the Legislature already given the Cabinet
14 guidance.
15 Chapter 288 is an expedited process. It's
16 an expedited process because we're dealing with
17 the reuse of a military facility. And in that
18 context, the Federal government will prepare an
19 Environmental Impact Statement.
20 And the Legislature made clear in language
21 that is not discretionary that the local
22 government, State, and regional agencies shall
23 make every effort to use information and
24 analyses generated by the Federal Environmental
25 Impact Statement process.
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1 Now, how can this Cabinet claim to be
2 faithful to that legislative mandate to make,
3 quote, unquote, every effort to rely on the
4 environmental impact process if the information
5 that's being developed in the Supplemental
6 Environmental Impact Statement isn't considered
7 in making this decision.
8 And my final point is, it's important to
9 keep the context of the SEIS decision in mind.
10 In July -- on July 23, 1996, different
11 environmental organizations, including Friends
12 of the Everglades, wrote the Air Force and
13 maintained that the original Environmental
14 Impact Statement wasn't adequate, and it needed
15 supplementation.
16 The Air Force didn't embark on the decision
17 to do SEIS lightly. It spent 18 months
18 performing a sensitivity analysis, a multiagency
19 task force to determine whether that was
20 necessary.
21 And after a lot of hand wringing, the
22 Federal government decided that the SEIS was
23 flawed, it was inadequate, it was noncompliant
24 with the National Environmental Policy Act, and
25 it needed supplementation.
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1 Had that decision been made in July of '96
2 when we asked for it, we would be done with that
3 now.
4 But I would urge the Cabinet that by not
5 making the right decision now, just as the
6 Air Force delayed in making the right decision,
7 will only delay this proceeding further.
8 Thank you very much for your time.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
10 DR. BRADLEY: The -- the last speaker,
11 Governor, is Richard Grosso representing the
12 Miami Chapter of the Sierra Club, and
13 Tropical Audubon. And we have about
14 three-and-a-half minutes left.
15 MR. GROSSO: Good morning, Governor Chiles,
16 members of the Commission. I'm Richard Grosso
17 with the Environmental and Land Use Law Center.
18 I'll try to talk fast because I only have a
19 little bit of a time.
20 How do you say -- how do you not say yes to
21 Dade County when they come and they say, we need
22 jobs, we need economic development? How do you
23 possibly do that? How do you possibly not say,
24 let's expedite the process today?
25 If you expedite the process and approve the
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1 plan that is on the table, even if you scale it
2 back just to Phase I, here's where we are
3 today: Dade County doesn't own this property
4 yet. Dade County doesn't know what the terms of
5 the conveyance are going to be yet.
6 The Federal government, who wrote the EIS
7 that is the basis for the amendment that's
8 before you today, concluded that what's on the
9 table today is a lot different and a lot greater
10 than what they were looking at, what they
11 thought they were dealing with.
12 The impacts that we used to allow on the
13 basis of national security are exceeded by
14 this. And that includes noise, because of the
15 frequency and the duration of the noise issue.
16 That's what the Air Force has determined.
17 They're the ones whose EIS is the basis for this
18 entire amendment.
19 The County doesn't own it. They don't know
20 when they're going to have it, they don't know
21 the terms of the conveyance.
22 The County itself has a major dispute with
23 the Federal government over the cleanup
24 standards of the highly polluted military canal
25 that is going to be the storm water conveyance
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1 for this property. They still have their own
2 dispute with the Federal government on that.
3 All of these things would be determined
4 through the Supplemental Environmental Impact
5 Statement. You will not have moved this project
6 along, you will simply have approved a project
7 that is, as Ms. Tinker tells you, 4 million
8 square feet.
9 You will only have approved development
10 rights under a contract that, at this late date,
11 after we've been through all this, it's still
12 unclear exactly what is being asked for
13 approval.
14 There -- part of the plan defers to market
15 studies yet to be done. You approve this, you
16 won't know exactly what you are approving in
17 terms of -- of the impacts. You don't have to
18 say no today.
19 You have to say, you don't have enough
20 information to say yes. You have to say, when
21 the Federal government, the Air Force, who still
22 owns this property, who did all the study that's
23 the basis, thinks they don't know the answers,
24 how can the Governor and the Cabinet of the
25 State of Florida say, we put our stamp of
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1 approval on this today, given all of that?
2 I respectfully submit that you cannot.
3 We are frankly astonished that the
4 Department would ask you to approve, even just a
5 Phase I, let alone the entire project.
6 The EIS that is part and parcel of the land
7 use plan has been found to be inadequate. The
8 lease between the developer and the County
9 trumps anything to the contrary in the language
10 of the plan.
11 The amendment says the impacts are going to
12 be less than the EIS. The Federal government
13 obviously disagrees strongly and dramatically
14 with that, yet that's a fundamental premise of
15 the plan that they're asking you to approve
16 today.
17 The noise study, the -- the storm water
18 study. The planner at DCA said that stuff needs
19 to be done to determine whether even Phase I is
20 appropriate. They're saying, let us do Phase I,
21 then they'll do their studies to determine if
22 even more is appropriate.
23 The -- the law says expedite. That's what
24 Chapter 288 says. But it also says, expedite it
25 only if you're meeting the environmental
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1 criteria, the substance of the Growth Management
2 Act. This is exactly the kind of thing the
3 Growth Management Act says no to.
4 You're not preserving the significant
5 natural and regional resources under this
6 comprehensive plan amendment.
7 It violates Chapter 288.
8 The notion that you must expedite -- in the
9 context of these facts, facts which the
10 Legislature doesn't contemplate when it writes a
11 law -- does not mean you're not expediting. It
12 can't be expedited if you approve it today.
13 There is still so much left to be done at the
14 Federal level.
15 And obviously you've heard the legal issues
16 that Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Schwiep. And I
17 completely agree with that, you would be
18 violating the law on that.
19 In closing, I will just say to you that we
20 ask you to send it to DOAH because there are too
21 many facts in dispute. Doing that does not
22 dishonor what the County wants, it just says, we
23 don't know enough now to approve of it yet.
24 Get the facts, get things straight, and
25 when all the Federal process is done, we've
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1 coordinated that and made -- with the State
2 process, then maybe it's appropriate to approve
3 it.
4 But not today, not now, not based on what
5 we know.
6 I'd be happy to answer any questions. And
7 I thank you very much for your time.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
9 DR. BRADLEY: That's -- that's all the
10 participants, Governor.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Mr. -- Secretary Murley,
12 would you come up.
13 My understanding is that the County has
14 proposed some changes since our meeting started,
15 or sometime today, or as we were speaking --
16 MR. MURLEY: Sometime today, sir.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Have you had a chance to
18 look at those, and would you kind of run through
19 those and tell us what you think of those as
20 what -- what we have before us now, or -- or do
21 you have a recommendation for us let me say.
22 MR. MURLEY: Thank you, Governor, members
23 of the Cabinet.
24 Yes, as often the case, the parties have
25 been seeking a resolution of the conflict. As
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1 what I think -- as you've heard, everyone has
2 been trying to do --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
4 MR. MURLEY: -- all along.
5 The proposal which would come before us as
6 a modified final order, and would direct actions
7 be taken at the County level, specifically
8 affects -- what really is the vehicle that came
9 to us, and we give to you, are the changes to
10 their local comp plan.
11 So they have to -- if they change what they
12 want to do, we've got to get that in sync with
13 what they're stipulating to.
14 So the -- they would be proposing to
15 recommend -- for your approval, this final
16 order, only Phase I. Not the entire plan, as
17 was presented to us, and as we presented to you
18 as structure for dealing with it.
19 So they would only be recommending
20 Phase I.
21 They would be adopting DCA's recommended
22 solutions for correcting the unresolved issues,
23 except for the -- in the following ways, which
24 I'll mention.
25 That includes, as I understand it, our
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1 condition that they not apply for the FAA
2 certification until the plans that they're going
3 to stipulate to as part of this package are
4 complete, as condition precedent. That's
5 different than what we had proposed.
6 So the changes would be, in revising the
7 recommendations we proposed to you, is allow no
8 more than 530,000 square feet of new
9 construction, including eight hundred and --
10 180,000 square feet of renovation.
11 They would provide that no construction --
12 no construction shall commence pending
13 completion -- completion of required studies and
14 approval of management plans recommended by
15 DCA. Approval of management plans recommended
16 by DCA.
17 Three management plans are Storm Water
18 Management Plan, Wildlife Habitat Management
19 Plan, Noise Management Plan. I believe the
20 first one is approved by -- under the fifth
21 recommendation, by Water Management District,
22 and the two and three by DCA.
23 Nothing would happen as far as Phase I
24 until these were completed and approved.
25 Required expedited agency review of
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1 required management plans within the following
2 time frames to commence upon receipt of the
3 management plans by the reviewing agency:
4 Storm Water Plan, 90 days; Wildlife Habitat
5 Management Plan, 90 days; Noise Management Plan,
6 120 days.
7 On the noise standards to be used in the
8 Noise Management Plan, provide for standards to
9 be used for review of the Noise Management Plan
10 for Phase I to be those standards in the --
11 legally in effect at the time the review is
12 conducted.
13 However, when standards are subsequently
14 released and new standards, those standards then
15 shall apply to the subsequent review phase.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: So if standards were
17 changed from Phase I to Phase II, or to other
18 phases, it would be the new standards that they
19 would -- they would be using --
20 MR. MURLEY: Yes, sir.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- for noise standards.
22 The new approved standards.
23 MR. MURLEY: That's right.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
25 MR. MURLEY: And finally as a change to the
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1 conditions, require a reduction of the net
2 discharge from the base and the airport facility
3 pending completion of the Storm Water Management
4 Plan, a net reduction in storm water from the
5 new reused base for Phase -- as a basis of the
6 completion of the Storm Water Management Plan.
7 So we're not -- it's not just keeping the
8 standard, that's going -- that's reducing the
9 amount of discharge.
10 And that future phases -- this is --
11 because we've cut the overall plan now into
12 pieces. Any future phases would be under our
13 standard growth management laws.
14 Future phases of development must be
15 approved by DCA under Chapter 163, and 380,
16 Processes for Plan Amendments and DRIs.
17 That's, as I understand it --
18 Oh. I missed page 2.
19 The County is directed -- this would be in
20 your final order. The County is directed to
21 amend its local comp plan to provide that the
22 land use designations with the entire
23 1,842 acres allow not more than 530,000 square
24 feet of development, inclusive of the
25 180,000 square feet of redevelopment.
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1 Those square footages would not include the
2 activities that have previously been leased to
3 license like the homeless shelter, the military
4 reserve operations, the air customs unit,
5 several others that are not part of the
6 overall -- they're on the base, they're already
7 operating by permission of the Air Force --
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: So they're not considered
9 part of that --
10 MR. MURLEY: No. Those wouldn't be added
11 into the --
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay.
13 MR. MURLEY: So where are we?
14 We've gone, as you've heard, from an
15 overall management plan that was presented to
16 us, as we understood it, for full reuse of the
17 base, 4 million square feet.
18 We had agreed, as you heard, several years
19 ago, to operate at a predevelopment agreement at
20 2 million. But, frankly, that was never used.
21 We had basically aimed at these same
22 numbers, with the addition of the 180,000 square
23 feet of renovation. So that was our Phase I.
24 The management plans must be finished now
25 before anything can happen. That's different
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1 than the way we recommended it where we would
2 allow things to go forward, and the management
3 plans would be done subsequently.
4 And it sets the standards.
5 Governor --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let me ask you, just so
7 I'll make sure. So they're going to complete,
8 and we're going to have to approve, the
9 Water Management -- the Storm Water --
10 MR. MURLEY: Storm Water Management Plan --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Storm Water Management
12 Plan, the Wildlife Management Plan, and the
13 Noise Management Plan before they seek the FAA
14 approval; is that correct?
15 MR. MURLEY: Before they can do any
16 construction.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
18 MR. MURLEY: Before they can do any
19 construction or development on the first phase.
20 Before they can seek approval.
21 MS. TINKER: Right.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: How about a Noise
23 Management Plan before they're seeking FAA
24 approval, or what -- what is that?
25 MR. MURLEY: Yes. Affirmative.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Before.
2 MR. MURLEY: Before.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. And then,
4 of course, they still have a Supplemental
5 Economic Impact that must be completed by the
6 Federal government.
7 MR. MURLEY: And all State and Federal
8 permits required for any of this activity.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
10 Can I hear from somebody from the County as
11 to whether this is what we have before us now?
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I have a follow-up
15 question to your question.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Sure. Let me --
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Probably more to you
18 than to Mr. Murley. But you didn't mean we have
19 to approve, did you -- you didn't mean this
20 Cabinet --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: No.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- you meant --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Not necessarily, no.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's correct.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
2 MR. MURLEY: Yes. I tried to --
3 excuse me. Madam Secretary of State, the
4 approvals would be at the DCA.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. I unders--
6 I -- that's correct.
7 MR. MURLEY: Sorry if I confused that.
8 You're right.
9 DR. BRADLEY: Did you want to hear from
10 someone --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: I want to hear from
12 somebody from the County as to whether this is
13 what they think is before us as well. I mean --
14 DR. BRADLEY: Okay. Should I get somebody
15 from the other side as well?
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, the County --
18 MAYOR PINELLAS: Mr. Governor, members of
19 the Cabinet, we are satisfied with that
20 agreement, yes, sir.
21 MR. GROSSO: Thank you.
22 Richard Grosso again.
23 We do not support this. This is -- this is
24 founded on facts that we don't yet know which
25 are under dispute and which are being looked at
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1 through the SEIS process.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
3 MR. GROSSO: This is a plan that has been
4 hatched outside of these halls, with people
5 scribbling on drafts, trying to come up with a
6 plan for this size of an air base, sandwiched
7 between two national parks.
8 And we've been through this for six or
9 eight years, and approval is going to come down
10 to things that we scratched together at --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think we can --
12 you can certainly make a legitimate argument of
13 what goes first, the chicken or the egg, and
14 whether this is going to speed up things or
15 not.
16 I think you can argue on the other side
17 that with something before them, the Feds have a
18 lot better vision of what the ESIS would look
19 like right away, because they now have
20 something, and they've had all kind of plans
21 before.
22 So --
23 MR. GROSSO: It obviously narrows the scope
24 of the project --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
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1 MR. GROSSO: -- but I think as those of us
2 land use lawyers know, once you've --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Right.
4 MR. GROSSO: -- approved a plan for a
5 project, you then try to deny a permit for it,
6 you've got legal trouble. That's going to be a
7 problem. It's not as simple as it may sound, we
8 would respectfully request -- submit,
9 Your Honor --
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: We will mark you --
11 MR. GROSSO: -- Governor Chiles.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- as doubtful.
13 Yes, sir.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, in an
15 attempt to create some sort of motion which
16 I think --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- you are looking
19 for, I would move that we approve the Department
20 of Community Affairs report as modified with
21 the -- the resolution of issues, for lack of a
22 better term, that has been articulated --
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I'll second that.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and a record --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
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1 seconded.
2 Is there further discussion?
3 TREASURER NELSON: May I just ask
4 Mr. Murley one technical question.
5 What -- what you said about the noise
6 standards, I wasn't quite sure. You said
7 provide for standards to be used for review of
8 the Noise Management Plan for Phase I, to be
9 those standards in legal effect at the time the
10 review is conducted.
11 However, if new standards are subsequently
12 released, such standards and their application
13 shall apply to subsequent development phases.
14 Is that correct?
15 MR. MURLEY: That is correct.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. All right.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there further
18 discussion?
19 So many as favor the amendment, signify by
20 saying -- I mean, the motion, signify by saying
21 aye.
22 THE CABINET: Aye.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
24 I'm an aye.
25 It is passed.
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1 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
2 concluded.)
3 *
4 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
5 2:08 p.m.)
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March 24, 1998 189
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 188 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 3RD day of APRIL, 1998.
17
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19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR 100 Salem Court 20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221 21
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