T H E C A B I N E T
S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
Representing:
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
February 23, 1999, commencing at approximately
9:17 a.m.
Reported by:
LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
Certified Court Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850/878-2221
APPEARANCES:
Representing the Florida Cabinet:
JEB BUSH
Governor
BOB CRAWFORD
Commissioner of Agriculture
BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
KATHERINE HARRIS
Secretary of State
BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
BILL NELSON
Treasurer
TOM GALLAGHER
Commissioner of Education
*
February 23, 1999
I N D E X
ITEM ACTION PAGE
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD:
(Presented by Martin L. Young,
Secretary)
1 Approved 11
2 Approved 12
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Tom Herndon,
Executive Director)
1 Approved 13
2 Approved 14
3 Approved 14
4 Approved 14
5 Approved 15
6 Deferred 38
7 Information Only 38
8 Approved 72
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
(Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
Director)
1 Approved 73
2 Approved 73
3 Approved 73
4 Approved 74
5 Approved 74
6 Approved 75
7 Approved 75
8 Approved 76
9 Approved 76
10 Approved 77
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Donna Arduin,
Secretary)
1 Approved 78
2 Approved 79
I N D E X
ITEM ACTION PAGE
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
(Presented by Teresa Tinker,
Secretary)
1 Approved 80
2 Approved 80
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
(Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
1 Approved 81
2 Approved 81
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
Deputy Commissioner)
1 Report 82
2 Approved 94
3 Approved 94
4 Information Only 94
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
(Presented by Kirby B. Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
Substitute 1 Approved 133
2 Approved 133
3 Approved 134
4 Approved 134
Substitute 5 Deferred 135
6 Approved 135
7 Deferred 135
8 Approved 142, 146
Substitute 9 Approved 156
Substitute 10 Deferred 157
11 Deferred 157
Discussion Re: Miami Circle 157
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 195
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 5
February 23, 1999
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:52 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Financial Management
4 Information Board.
5 Item 1.
6 MR. YOUNG: Good morning. I'm
7 Martin Young, Department of Banking and
8 Finance, Secretary of the Financial Management
9 Information Board. We have two items this
10 morning for the Board's approval.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead.
12 MR. YOUNG: We have two items this morning
13 for the Board's approval.
14 But before I go on to Item 1, the minutes,
15 I would like to just give a brief update on two
16 of the projects mentioned in the FFMIS
17 Strategic Plan.
18 We have two projects underway: The Human
19 Resource Payroll Project, and the FFMIS
20 Financial Project. In 1996, the FFMIS
21 Coordinating Council initiated a program to
22 implement an enterprise-wide financial
23 management system. This --
24 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
25 room.)
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 6
February 23, 1999
1 MR. YOUNG: -- program is to evaluate the
2 feasibility of purchasing integrated financial
3 management software to replace the existing
4 legacy financial management systems. Based on
5 the results of the pilot, the FFMIS
6 Coordinating Council will decide if the HR
7 payroll system --
8 Ended up skipping my notes. I'm sorry.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Take your time.
10 MR. YOUNG: Anyway, the first project we
11 have is the Human Resource Payroll Project.
12 What we'd like to do is replace the existing
13 human resource payroll and benefit subsystem
14 with a single, integrated one. The first step
15 of this phase is to conduct a proof of pilot in
16 three entities, which will be Department of
17 Management Services; Banking and Finance; and
18 the Department of Law Enforcement, by
19 implementing a commercial developed integrated
20 human resource and payroll system.
21 Based on the results of the pilot, the
22 Coordinating Council -- the FFMIS Coordinating
23 Council will decide if the human resource
24 payroll system should be expanded -- expanded
25 to the rest of State government.
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 7
February 23, 1999
1 The first pilot will be Department of
2 Management Services. It will go into
3 production in March of 2000, followed by
4 Banking and Finance and the Department of Law
5 Enforcement in June of 2000. Briefing on these
6 plans will be held with a broad range of
7 leadership, stakeholder, and user groups next
8 month.
9 The new system will have new functionality,
10 including on-line employee self-service
11 functions and on-line work flow functions:
12 For example, the ability for employees to look
13 up their pay stub information; the ability to
14 look at benefit selections; the --
15 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
16 room.)
17 MR. YOUNG: -- ability to do on-line time
18 reporting, and actual time sheet approval; a
19 major change from where we are right now, sir.
20 We continue to recruit State staff for the
21 project team. We do need additional recruits
22 for change, leadership, communications, and
23 administrative support. We'll plan to send out
24 a letter pretty soon -- actually, next week I
25 believe, to the Agency heads requesting their
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 8
February 23, 1999
1 assistance to provide additional full-time
2 support for the project.
3 This week, on February 26th, we plan to
4 present to the FFMIS Coordinating Council a
5 proposed Implementation Services Agreement for
6 the pilot phase for their review and approval.
7 The second project is the financial
8 project. The financial project staff, with
9 input from State agencies and universities,
10 will develop a new proposed chart of accounts,
11 and develop high level functionality
12 requirements for an enterprise-wide, integrated
13 financial management system, which would
14 include accounting, purchasing, cash
15 management, and budgeting.
16 To facilitate the development of these
17 deliverables, the State will utilize the
18 services of a consultant. The consultant will
19 help the State staff develop and gather
20 information to develop consensus, and also to
21 provide technical advice.
22 What we've done so far with the financial
23 project is we have approved an interim project
24 manager, we've collected information from other
25 public sector entities that use commercial
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 9
February 23, 1999
1 software solutions, we've approved a memorandum
2 of agreement to provide start-up funding for
3 the project, and we've developed a user survey
4 to State agencies regarding their usage of the
5 current chart of accounts, and the desired
6 functionality for a new integrated financial
7 management system.
8 We hope the deliverables to give us some
9 indications about the business case for our new
10 system, and to also review and make
11 recommendations regarding the chart of
12 accounts.
13 So we've got those two projects underway.
14 They're talked about in both the minutes of the
15 strategic plan, which is Item 1; and also
16 Item 2, which is the new strategic plan.
17 So unless there are any questions, I would
18 like to go ahead and -- back to Item 1, sir.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'd like to make one
20 comment, which is fresh --
21 MR. YOUNG: Yes, sir.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- from my visit to the
23 NGA.
24 When the CEO of AT&T and the Senior
25 Vice President of IBM were asked -- I'm sure
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 10
February 23, 1999
1 you all were raptly watching on C-SPAN,
2 of course, but if you weren't -- when asked
3 what state governments can do to be competitive
4 in -- in this revolution that we're living
5 through, they said, adapt the same business
6 management practices, use technology the same
7 way that we are, in order to say -- be
8 competitive.
9 And, for example IBM, I think the Senior
10 Vice President said they saved two hundred and
11 thirty-five million dollars using web
12 technology, just Internet technology for their
13 purchasing and receivables. And if they didn't
14 do that, you know, it's -- it's -- that's
15 about -- I think, 5 percent or 6 percent of
16 their net profits. And -- so this is critical
17 if we're going to be competitive with the other
18 50 states. This is something, I think, is just
19 absolutely important that we adopt the same
20 business practices that competitive businesses
21 do.
22 So, General.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- and
24 I think just to reenforce what you've said, and
25 that's certainly the pursuit of the FFMIS
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 11
February 23, 1999
1 Council and the efforts, particularly in these
2 two areas, these two projects, both are looking
3 to what are -- what is the private sector
4 doing. And clearly that's the pursuit right
5 now in the human resources and payroll system,
6 direct adaptation from the private sector.
7 And that is the goal obviously in -- in
8 terms of improving our financial management
9 systems.
10 So I -- I applaud what they've been doing.
11 They're doing a very, very good job to bring
12 this all together.
13 And, by the way, with great cross-state
14 agency cooperation, which is critical.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion for the
16 minutes?
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move the minutes.
18 TREASURER NELSON: And I second.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: The motion is -- has been
20 moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 MR. YOUNG: Item 2 is the approval of the
23 strategic plan for the years 2000/2001 through
24 2004/2005.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move the approval
FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT INFORMATION BOARD 12
February 23, 1999
1 of the plan.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MR. YOUNG: Thank you.
6 That concludes the agenda.
7 (The Financial Management Information Board
8 Agenda was concluded.)
9 *
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 13
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of
2 Administration.
3 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 1 is approval of
4 the minutes of the meeting held on
5 February 9th, 1999.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 2 is a resolution
11 of the State Board of Administration rescinding
12 the fiscal sufficiency authorization with
13 respect to all unissued portions of the State
14 of Florida, full faith and credit, State Board
15 of Education Public Education Capital Outlay
16 Bonds, and Refunding Bonds; and a concurrent
17 resolution of the State Board of Administration
18 approving the fiscal sufficiency of an amount
19 not exceeding six hundred and
20 fifty million dollars, State of Florida, full
21 faith and credit, State Board of Education,
22 Public Education Capital Outlay Bonds -- or
23 Refunding Bonds.
24 TREASURER NELSON: And I move the item.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 14
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 3 is approval of
4 a fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding
5 seventy-four million eighty-five thousand,
6 State of Florida, full faith and credit State
7 Board of Education Capital Outlay Bonds, 1999
8 series A.
9 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MR. HERNDON: Item number 4 is approval of
14 a fiscal sufficiency of an issue not exceeding
15 a hundred and forty million dollars State of
16 Florida, full faith and credit, Department of
17 Transportation Right-of-Way Acquisition and
18 Bridge Construction Refunding Bond. Series is
19 unnamed at this point.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it.
21 TREASURER NELSON: I'll -- and I'll second.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 5 is submitted
25 for information and review, the investment
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 15
February 23, 1999
1 performance and fund balance analysis for the
2 month of January 1999.
3 TREASURER NELSON: And I'll move that.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I'll second.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
6 Without objection, it's approved.
7 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 6 is submitted
8 for consideration by the State Board of the
9 draft recommendations of the Florida Retirement
10 System/Unfunded Actuarial Liability Working
11 Group. The draft of the actual report has been
12 made available to each of your offices.
13 We had, as the members will recall,
14 empaneled this working group back in the fall
15 of 1998, worked through several meetings. And
16 the working group has produced a series of
17 recommendations that are submitted for your
18 consideration this morning.
19 The staff of the State Board is
20 recommending two possible modifications to
21 those recommendations, the first of which is to
22 strengthen the recommendation regarding the
23 establishment of a contribution rate
24 stabilization fund.
25 The second modification to those
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 16
February 23, 1999
1 recommendations is to restate the
2 recommendation so that the role of the
3 State Board of Administration is clearer, and
4 is in a review and approval posture with
5 respect to future contribution rate increases.
6 Governor, I know you have some questions.
7 There are also several people who are in the
8 audience who want to speak to this item and the
9 next item jointly. And I would bow to your
10 preference as to how you want to sequence their
11 comments and --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well --
13 MR. HERNDON: -- and your concerns, and
14 so forth.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, let's -- let's let
16 the speakers speak, and then --
17 MR. HERNDON: Okay.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I'll express my
19 concerns.
20 MR. HERNDON: Okay. I also know that --
21 just note, I guess, that a number of the
22 speakers are going to be addressing this item
23 and the following item, which is the analysis
24 of the defined benefit and defined contribution
25 bills. And it's -- recognizing that we're not
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 17
February 23, 1999
1 taking up both topics at the same time, but so
2 that it's simpler for convenience sake.
3 The first person that I have on my list is
4 Rowland Davis, who is a consulting actuary that
5 was hired by the State Board, through our
6 general consultants, Ennis, Knupp & Associates.
7 And I think he is here primarily for
8 information purposes. But we do want to just
9 briefly talk and have Rowland address the
10 question of the Stabilization Fund, and how
11 it's deployed in other jurisdictions.
12 So, Rowland, if you'll come up. We have
13 asked all the speakers to be mindful of their
14 3-minute limit. So I'm sure they'll all be
15 cooperative in that regard.
16 MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
17 With regard to the Contribution
18 Stabilization Fund, the -- one of the main
19 benefits that we have is the -- a fully funded
20 pension plan now. And it's been a long, uphill
21 climb to get the plan fully funded.
22 The main objective we have to move forward
23 is to keep the contributions as stable -- try
24 and keep a level playing field, if you will, on
25 the contribution rates. And we think the
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 18
February 23, 1999
1 well-funded position of the plan can be of
2 great benefit in that.
3 There are various techniques that can be
4 utilized, and we're exploring and trying to
5 fine-tune some of those the best way to
6 maintain that stabilization.
7 But we'll avoid situations where
8 contribution rates might be going up and down,
9 and particularly the up-- the up-swings are
10 particularly painful. And we're trying to find
11 the right combination that will maintain a
12 stable contribution rate, and at the same time,
13 in the event of good performance, will deliver
14 contribution relief in an appropriate fashion
15 periodically so that it flows back through to
16 the taxpayers.
17 It's a technique that has been used in some
18 fashion by other states. The teachers fund of
19 Ohio and Texas use similar approaches, where
20 the contribution rate is pegged at a certain
21 level. And as long as experience stays within
22 certain boundaries, the contribution stays very
23 stable. And that's -- that's the goal that we
24 have.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: What was your
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 19
February 23, 1999
1 recommendation that their Working Group came up
2 with as it relates to both the governance
3 question, and the -- and the budget
4 stabilization?
5 MR. DAVIS: The working group was
6 supportive of the concept of a stabilization
7 reserve. The mechanics were such that no
8 specific recommendation was made of the working
9 group, but the option to go forward and explore
10 and present specific mechanisms that may be
11 utilized, and have those adopted and followed
12 as devices.
13 Basically we'll -- it will involve
14 establishing limits where there'll be triggers
15 of -- of contribution relief, and how that
16 relief will be implemented in terms of what --
17 what period of time the relief will flow
18 through to, and how -- how significantly the
19 annual contribution may be reduced in periods
20 of relief.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did you take a position on
22 the question of the State Board of
23 Administration approving any actions taken by
24 the Legislature?
25 MR. DAVIS: The Working Group did not have
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 20
February 23, 1999
1 an official position on -- on the approval.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
3 MR. HERNDON: If I might speak to that,
4 Governor.
5 The -- the Working Group itself did
6 consider the question of what role the
7 State Board should play in the future adoption
8 of contribution rates. There was a good bit of
9 discussion about whether the State Board should
10 be in the position of approving -- and
11 literally that word -- of approving the actions
12 of whatever body it was that proposed a set of
13 contribution rates.
14 In the past, as you know, contribution
15 rates for the pension system have largely been
16 set pretty informally. There's no official
17 mechanism to establish them.
18 What the Working Group proposed was the
19 creation of a formal Estimating Conference type
20 process where contribution rates would be
21 established, or -- or recommended, I guess.
22 And then that set of recommendations would
23 come to you as State Board for review. And it
24 was proposed to be approval. The Working Group
25 actually concluded that that -- the use of that
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 21
February 23, 1999
1 word was -- was probably further than they
2 wished to go.
3 So that's where we are at this point.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
6 TREASURER NELSON: -- is it -- it's my
7 understanding that the State Board has not ever
8 actually taken a formal vote of approval on
9 what the rate should be in the past.
10 Is that true?
11 MR. HERNDON: That's correct.
12 TREASURER NELSON: It is also my
13 understanding that we, the three of us, have a
14 fiduciary responsibility to the soundness of
15 the Fund.
16 Is that correct?
17 MR. HERNDON: Yes.
18 TREASURER NELSON: So the contribution
19 rate, which would affect the soundness of the
20 Fund, would -- would suggest that that would
21 enter into the area of the fiduciary
22 responsibility.
23 Is that what the lawyers would tell us?
24 MR. HERNDON: Well, I believe that's what
25 they would tell you. I mean, essentially
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 22
February 23, 1999
1 the -- the fiscal integrity of the pension fund
2 is a function of two things. I mean, you have
3 investment return in all of its many forms, and
4 contributions. And those are basically the
5 only two inputs into the pension plan.
6 And to -- to the extent that either of them
7 are materially altered, it could obviously have
8 an effect on the integrity of the plan.
9 Now, at any given time, it may not. But
10 certainly those two inputs could be
11 instrumental if they're altered to some
12 substantial degree.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, here's the
14 concern I have. If -- and the recommendation
15 coming forth from the Working Group, as I
16 understand it, is not that we would approve it
17 after the Legislature did it. The Legislature
18 has the authority to enact the law. You
19 have -- enact the legislation, and you have the
20 authority to sign the legislation into law.
21 My concern is, and the Working Group's
22 recommendation is -- and I'll just read it to
23 you: Subject the assumptions to review and
24 approval by the Trustees of the FRS, and that
25 would be prior to being recommended to the
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 23
February 23, 1999
1 Legislature.
2 My concern is: If we don't get in the
3 process, we, the three of us, with our
4 fiduciary responsibility, and if a future
5 Legislature took irresponsible action that
6 caused the Fund to be unfunded, and we had
7 then, as the three of us, to go into court to
8 correct that mistake, then if we have omitted
9 ourself in the process of rendering a judgment
10 before it ever went to the Legislature, I'm
11 concerned that that might undermine the basis
12 of the argument that we would make in court to
13 try to get the Court to correct the financial
14 stability of the fund.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why -- why was that not a
16 problem of concern five years ago or ten years
17 ago, or one year ago? I'm concerned that why
18 is it now, all of a sudden, necessary for the
19 Trustees to be concerned about their fiduciary
20 responsibilities?
21 And -- and I'm -- I'm a little confused
22 about what the task force recommended. I'm --
23 because there is a confusion there. And I
24 apologize.
25 But I thought what -- what I just heard was
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 24
February 23, 1999
1 that they did not make a recommendation to make
2 any changes in this regard, and this was
3 something that someone else was recommending.
4 Am I wrong about that?
5 MR. HERNDON: You're correct. Let me --
6 let me try and restate. The staff of the
7 State Board is recommending that the
8 recommendations of the Working Group be adopted
9 with the addition of the word --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's not the word --
11 MR. HERNDON: -- approve --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
13 MR. HERNDON: -- in -- in the
14 recommendation.
15 The Working Group discussed it largely at
16 the behest of some of the members of the
17 Working Group from the Legislature. The word
18 approve was taken out of the draft
19 recommendations, and that's what you see today
20 is -- is it's been -- it's been redacted out.
21 So that's why we're back here.
22 And, too, your question about why the
23 Trustees haven't looked at this in a -- in a --
24 with concern ten years ago, I frankly don't
25 know that there -- there is an answer to that
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 25
February 23, 1999
1 question. I mean --
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I may, Governor.
3 Just a quick comment.
4 We have been involved in this now for well
5 over a year with concern, albeit, it didn't
6 become an issue a year ago like we thought it
7 was going to be, but we have been involved in
8 it.
9 I agree fully with Commissioner Nelson's
10 position in terms of our fiduciary
11 responsibility, and our responsibility to at
12 least let our position be known.
13 I'm not so sure that we're not in a little
14 bit of a semantics game here. Approval may not
15 be the right term. I would prefer to think
16 that we look at the Working Group report, we
17 look at what the staff may add to it in terms
18 of modifications, and that we either concur or
19 don't concur in it. And if we don't concur,
20 those areas where we don't concur.
21 I would -- I would rather look at it in the
22 concurrent sense. This I think satisfies
23 Commissioner Nelson's concern that we are on
24 record as to what we support or don't support,
25 but are not in the approval process per se.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 26
February 23, 1999
1 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I think
2 General Milligan has expressed my comments --
3 my thoughts, very well.
4 I think for us to be us for future -- for
5 us today and future State Boards of
6 Administration, which in four years will be the
7 Governor, the Attorney General, and the Chief
8 Financial Officer, that for the sanctity of
9 this marvelously successful, and the fourth
10 largest pension fund in the country, that there
11 needs to be the legal statement by the Trustees
12 of the State Board of Administration -- in my
13 opinion, before a Legislature would take action
14 that might jeopardize the financial integrity
15 of that Fund -- that there needs to be a clear
16 statement of what is the intent and the
17 preference of the Trustees.
18 And so whether you use the word, as the
19 General suggested, or what's in here, I think
20 we're getting at the same thing.
21 Thank you.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- I just want to be on
23 the record concerned about anything -- and I'm
24 not sure exactly -- we have not had a long
25 enough conversation about this -- but concerned
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 27
February 23, 1999
1 about anything that would take -- I'm not as
2 concerned about the Legislature -- but to --
3 that takes -- I should be concerned about the
4 Legislature -- I will be concerned about the
5 Legislature next week.
6 -- but it takes powers that
7 constitutionally are given to the Governor, and
8 to the Legislature in this process.
9 And if -- and if this was such an
10 enormously important thing, I'm just --
11 you know, thank God we came to reach this
12 conclusion that this was a problem now.
13 And I'm just a little concerned about why.
14 Why -- and there is no explanation, which
15 doesn't help me too much, and that -- giving me
16 my concerns.
17 So -- but if it's -- there's a question of
18 concurrence, which there's no particular -- and
19 that satisfies the fiduciary aspects of this,
20 and the legislative process and the -- and the
21 responsibilities of Governor continue on, then
22 I will support it.
23 But with -- on the record about how, by
24 this action, we're not taking away any
25 prerogative that the Governor has.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 28
February 23, 1999
1 MR. HERNDON: Well, you're certainly not
2 doing that, Governor. I mean, your -- your
3 responsibilities and duties as Governor still
4 exists as it relates to setting contribution
5 rates, looking at the bill that comes to you
6 from the Legislature with contributions set in
7 them, and so on.
8 So in that regard, I don't think this would
9 do any damage to your --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: General, do you want to
11 rephrase the -- the resolution?
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I will -- I will
13 attempt to.
14 But let me first say that in reference to
15 Commissioner Nelson's comment, if -- if we ever
16 as Trustees did not agree with a decision made
17 in -- by the Legislature and approved by the
18 Governor in law and statute, if we have not
19 been on record as to a position, we would have
20 a difficult time, I think, pursuing any court
21 action in the sense of trying to turn around
22 something that we felt was adversely affecting
23 the plan.
24 And so I think, again, it's important to
25 set the right position in terms of concurrence,
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 29
February 23, 1999
1 and -- so that our position is known and just,
2 again, reenforce what we've talked about. But
3 it's the future that concerns me, not so much
4 right now. It really --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: It concerns me as well.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- the future.
7 MR. HERNDON: Well --
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I would make a
9 motion then, Governor, that we concur in the
10 Working Group's report as modified by the
11 staffs of the State Board of Administration's
12 recommendation that we include a specific rate
13 stabilization mechanism, and that -- that
14 this -- and this second recommendation modified
15 to acknowledge that we are not in an approval
16 process, but in a concurrence process.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good. There's a
18 motion.
19 TREASURER NELSON: I second it.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other conver-- any
21 other discussion?
22 MR. HERNDON: Governor, I'm sorry. We do
23 have another four or five speakers. I don't
24 know for certain if each of them had planned on
25 addressing this question. Most of them are
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 30
February 23, 1999
1 here to address the next --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's what I -- excuse me.
3 MR. HERNDON: I do know that --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Does anybody have any other
5 conversation -- discussion --
6 MR. HERNDON: A couple of them --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- about --
8 MR. HERNDON: Ms. King, I think -- it's
9 hard to see. Did you have --
10 MS. KING: I want to --
11 MR. HERNDON: Do you want to --
12 MS. KING: -- to --
13 MR. HERNDON: -- come up here?
14 MS. KING: -- is addressed in mine. If
15 they don't mind waiting to hear when I speak.
16 But I do address that issue.
17 MR. HERNDON: Okay.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: If you want to influence
19 our vote, we're about ready to vote. So --
20 MS. KING: I would like to influence your
21 vote.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well then, come over here.
23 You look persuasive to me, so --
24 MS. KING: Thank you.
25 Do you want to hear all of what I have to
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 31
February 23, 1999
1 say, or shall I go --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't you give us half
3 a loaf on this, and then we'll vote on this.
4 And then -- and then we'll just -- you stay
5 right there, and we'll keep talking about the
6 defined contribution and --
7 MS. KING: The other --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- benefit. Is that all
9 right?
10 MS. KING: Well, on the issue that you're
11 speaking of, I strongly -- really believe that
12 it should be approved.
13 And I say that because I've been around a
14 while. I've been a part of the system for a
15 very long time --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you say -- I'm sorry.
17 I'm new to this job. I have.
18 Can you tell me who you are and who you
19 represent.
20 MS. KING: I'm Joan King. I'm a retired
21 teacher in Orange County. And I've been a
22 teacher in Florida for over 30 --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
24 MS. KING: -- years.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Ms. King.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 32
February 23, 1999
1 MS. KING: And I've been following the
2 retirement system from way back then.
3 I just wanted to say that the way our
4 system works in Florida, it's very unique. And
5 I think when -- when you consider that we don't
6 have a Board of Trustees, we do not really have
7 a body that makes the decisions, other than the
8 recommendations that come from the State Board
9 of Administration and the Board of Trustees,
10 and then, of course, what goes to the
11 Legislature after that.
12 But what has really made our system work so
13 well, I think, is the fact that the three
14 Trustees are very important. They serve in a
15 very special role. And it's sort of an
16 accountability role, and I don't think that
17 concur's nearly as strong as approve. And
18 I think that the Legislature, and everyone else
19 should hear approve.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sir, do you --
21 MR. HERNDON: The next speaker is
22 Mark Neimeiser, who's with AFSCME.
23 MR. NEIMEISER: Governor and State Board,
24 I'm Mark Neimeiser with the American Federation
25 of State, County, and Municipal Employees.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 33
February 23, 1999
1 We're an AFL-CIO affiliate.
2 We represent some 63,000 career service
3 workers, 13,000 in the State University System,
4 all of whom were covered by the pension plan,
5 as well as another 45,000 in local governments
6 around the state.
7 Our concern as we went around the state and
8 began to talk about what's going on with the
9 pension system, whether there was an unfunded
10 liability or whether, in fact, it had been
11 covered and there was now a surplus, what kinds
12 of other programs were around, almost to a
13 group, and we represent every title in what
14 would be a job classification lexicon from
15 architect to zoo keeper, almost to a person,
16 almost to a group, the concern was the security
17 of the plan.
18 The idea that career civil servants would
19 at the end of their -- of their time be able to
20 collect a -- a pension which reflected that.
21 And almost to a group, we found that with only
22 one exception, that Florida public employees,
23 in terms of pay, are ranked below almost any
24 other state in the country, below most counties
25 and cities and major districts and so on
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 34
February 23, 1999
1 throughout the country.
2 So what we have is a concern that there be
3 security, that there in -- there, in effect, be
4 some ability for the government to ensure that.
5 And so the idea that the Trustees take a full
6 handed role is important, particularly -- and
7 I think, Governor, you've raised the question
8 about why now, and why not before.
9 I would tell you that they're circling.
10 There is money, the economy is booming, and the
11 financial folks who would -- who would sell
12 various kinds of programs are circling over our
13 pension fund and over those dollars, and the
14 workers know it, the legislators know it.
15 We just want to make sure that there is
16 that kind of protection so we don't get picked
17 apart.
18 Thank you.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I take the
20 two words that we're talking about, approval
21 and concurrence.
22 General Milligan, you said it's a matter of
23 semantics. Let me put it into the text and
24 read it. The Working Group believes that the
25 process by which actuarial assumptions and
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 35
February 23, 1999
1 methods are established should be formalized,
2 and recommends that the Legislature
3 considering -- consider the following process
4 reform options:
5 (A), subject the assumptions to review and
6 approval by the Trustees of FRS prior to the
7 submission of the actuarial report to the
8 Legislature.
9 The other way it would read: Subject the
10 assumptions to review and concurrence by the
11 Trustees of the FRS prior to submission of the
12 actuarial report to the Legislature.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I believe --
14 continue to believe, despite the -- the
15 comments, that concurrence serves our purpose
16 in terms of our responsibility -- fiduciary
17 responsibility as Trustees.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Well, I will go along
19 with you all. I think the word approval
20 clearly is a stronger word than concurrence in
21 terms of the financial -- I mean, the legal
22 underpinnings that we would need going in front
23 of a Court to overturn a runaway legislative
24 act.
25 But I -- I think we're splitting hairs
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 36
February 23, 1999
1 here, so I will go along with you. But I want
2 the record to reflect that I would prefer the
3 word approval.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Can I -- can I judge
5 from -- from that comment, Commissioner, that
6 from your legal background, that you don't
7 believe that concurrence is sufficient in terms
8 of any --
9 TREASURER NELSON: I --
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- court action we
11 might have to take?
12 TREASURER NELSON: -- I would rather get
13 a -- a constitutional lawyer --
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well --
15 TREASURER NELSON: -- tell us about that.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- perhaps this
17 merits considering deferral then, Governor,
18 until we sort out that issue that --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have actually at least a
20 decade, probably a lot longer, where this
21 wasn't even a factor. It probably can wait
22 two weeks.
23 MR. HERNDON: We do have fiduciary counsel
24 on retainer to the Board. I'm sure they would
25 be happy to earn their -- to earn their living.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 37
February 23, 1999
1 TREASURER NELSON: That's a good
2 suggestion.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: When you pose a question,
4 don't look -- I'm not a lawyer, so --
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Nor am I. So I -- I
6 will move deferral then, Governor, until such
7 time as we clarify really the issue of
8 concurrence and approval and the strength of
9 each.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good. We don't have
11 to have a second and -- and --
12 TREASURER NELSON: But we'll need to -- no.
13 We need to take this up at the next meeting
14 because the Legislature is about to meet on
15 this, and they need to clearly understand
16 what -- what we are recommending to them.
17 MR. HERNDON: We'll get you a written
18 opinion from our fiduciary counsel, and you
19 can --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, you want to move now
21 to the --
22 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- other --
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So the other -- that
25 deferral was seconded by --
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 38
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have to -- that's what I
2 was asking. Do we have to -- we have to have a
3 second?
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes, we do.
5 TREASURER NELSON: I second it.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: So there's a motion to
7 defer.
8 Hearing no objections, it's approved.
9 MR. HERNDON: All right. The next item,
10 Item Number 7, is also submitted for
11 information and discussion, and that is an
12 analysis of the pension reform bills that are
13 currently under consideration by the 1999
14 Legislature.
15 I think we provided each of you with that
16 little side-by-side chart. We do have, as we
17 indicated earlier, several speakers who are
18 here who wish to speak. And these are not in
19 any particular order, Governor.
20 Joan King, retired educator was up earlier,
21 who is the other half of your loaf, I think,
22 now.
23 So if you want to --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, please.
25 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 39
February 23, 1999
1 MS. KING: I first want to say, I apologize
2 for -- for expanding that discussion, but I do
3 think it's important to approve.
4 But I also welcome Comptroller Milligan's
5 efforts to help in that situation, as well as
6 Commissioner Nelson's.
7 Good morning to all of you, and thank you
8 very much for the opportunity that I have to
9 give input on the retirement issues, and the
10 recommendations that are coming from the
11 unfunded liability group.
12 As an annuitant, a retired teacher
13 receiving benefits, I think I bring an
14 important perspective to the mix. I'm one of
15 the 150,000 or so members who has been there
16 and done that. And by that, I mean, I'm
17 experiencing living on a fixed income;
18 experiencing problems with health providers,
19 HMOs. And I don't want to forget this one.
20 I'm experiencing the toll of the aging process.
21 So I've learned to appreciate the security
22 of a defined benefit plan and my lifetime
23 benefits.
24 And incidentally, that increase in the
25 insurance subsidy has been a big help for me
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 40
February 23, 1999
1 this year since our -- we had to change HMOs,
2 and our costs went up for our medication. So
3 that's been very much appreciated.
4 Something I've said before, I think, bears
5 repeating. And that is what the retirees give
6 back to the state in volunteer service in the
7 communities and the hospitals, Meals on Wheels,
8 schools, and all those things. They represent
9 a large --
10 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
11 room.)
12 MS. KING: -- tax dollar savings.
13 Remember, too, their income goes back into
14 the community. They are the stakeholders, too,
15 and they live their commitment to the future.
16 And the stability of the retirement system is
17 extremely important to them. The decisions you
18 make today are important and relevant.
19 Consider a conservative approach in the
20 reduction of the contribution rate so that
21 problem can be solved and can be resolved, that
22 stabilization reserve concept is a safe and
23 very sensible approach.
24 Why? We all know that once the money is
25 gone and the rates go up, it's difficult to get
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 41
February 23, 1999
1 it back. Usually the dollars are allocated to
2 something else. Gone is gone.
3 We need something better. And I am glad
4 that you are approving of that aspect -- or
5 excuse me -- concurring. Or approving?
6 Consider pension reform. Indeed, the
7 funding should be actuarially sound, and each
8 proposal should be thoroughly evaluated to the
9 cost. Not only the cost of the plan, but the
10 impact on the current system. I think it would
11 be better to use caution again, not too much
12 change, not too fast. We have a fantastic
13 reputation.
14 Now, granted we need to resolve the
15 portability problem. But we shouldn't --
16 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
17 MS. KING: -- be content with plans that
18 could impair the current defined benefit plan.
19 With what is happening in the market and
20 the global economy -- and incidentally, I keep
21 up with it. Thank goodness I don't have to
22 worry about it though. That's my husband's
23 worry. He's the one that gets the -- his
24 blood pressure goes up when he sees the pluses
25 and minuses every morning.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 42
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: He felt good this morning,
2 didn't he?
3 MS. KING: I hope so.
4 So several things are critical. First of
5 all, the defined contribution plan must be
6 optional. Not optional to later go to
7 mandatory. And some of those plans have that
8 in them.
9 And I wouldn't want any optional plan to --
10 to be adopted and put in place and then later
11 used as the same vehicle. I think we need to
12 consider that as we -- as we move in these
13 directions.
14 So why not do something that would solve
15 some of this portability problem without
16 implementing them automatically, or voting on
17 them and implementing them at the end of the
18 session.
19 Why not consider lowering the vesting time
20 from ten years to five? That would be a good
21 first step measure. Then evaluate the results
22 after a year or so. Five year's vesting is a
23 reasonable number, when you consider training
24 costs.
25 As one of our retirees stated, breaking in
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 43
February 23, 1999
1 new help is much more expensive than retaining
2 and retraining. And I think that's a very good
3 point.
4 Consider the assumptions. They should be
5 reviewed and concurred or approved by the
6 Trustees, so I won't go into that.
7 But they have -- the Trustees have that
8 fiduciary responsibility. And they are the
9 ones that have brought the Fund along to where
10 it is now, its fully funded status. And we're
11 very pleased -- extremely pleased about that.
12 They are an important part of the equation
13 that makes our unusual system in the state of
14 Florida work.
15 I think -- I think the advisory group
16 process should be formalized in law, and the
17 members -- the membership should be expanded to
18 include the representation that's listed. This
19 is fair and needed. I don't think we ever have
20 had enough input from the employee groups.
21 In closing, our current system functions
22 well, very well. Let's not do anything to
23 jeopardize that.
24 Thank you very much for the time you have
25 given me to speak.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 44
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
2 That was 3 minutes, wasn't it?
3 MS. KING: Oh, sure. Perfect. Right on
4 target. I timed it last night, and it was
5 3 minutes. But --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- I talked too much
7 while you were speaking. I apologize.
8 MS. KING: But the discussion -- the
9 discussion -- it was the discussion that made
10 me change a little. I hope you understand, and
11 thank you so much.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
13 MR. HERNDON: The next speaker that I have
14 is Bob Garvy with Prudential.
15 MR. GARVY: Good morning, Governor, ladies
16 and gentlemen of the Cabinet. My name is
17 Bob Garvy. I'm the President and Chief
18 Executive Officer of Intech, an institutional
19 money management firm. My firm manages about
20 one billion for the Florida State Board of
21 Administration.
22 I've spent about 30 years now in
23 investments, much of it as a consultant --
24 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
25 MR. GARVY: -- working on asset allocation,
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 45
February 23, 1999
1 manager selection, performance measurement, and
2 plan design.
3 Bad ideas are presented to us all the time.
4 But the notion of replacing Florida's ninety
5 billion dollar defined benefit plan, the fourth
6 largest in the United States, with a defined
7 contribution alternative, is worse than bad.
8 It borders on irresponsible. It will undermine
9 the retirement income security of hundreds of
10 thousands of our citizens.
11 Well, you say, that's an awfully strong
12 statement. On what basis do you make it? I
13 submit the following:
14 First, the terms defined benefit and
15 defined contribution are appropriate. They
16 effectively describe the essential differences
17 between them. In a defined benefit plan, the
18 benefit is defined and certain. In a defined
19 contribution plan, the contribution is defined.
20 The outcome and benefit --
21 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
22 MR. GARVY: -- is not.
23 Therefore, to move from a defined benefit
24 to a defined contribution plan will shift the
25 risk of retirement income security from the
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 46
February 23, 1999
1 sponsor of the plan, the State, to the
2 participant.
3 This is a huge change with important
4 implications.
5 Second, the modern defined benefit plan was
6 invented by General Motors in 1950. For
7 50 years, it has served the workers of our
8 nation well. This is not the case when the
9 defined contribution plan is the base for
10 retirement security.
11 In 1968, the state of Minnesota allowed
12 15,000 teachers to opt out of the defined
13 benefit plan into a defined contribution
14 alternative.
15 By 1978, with the markets flat for the
16 previous decade, the defined contribution
17 participants were clamoring to return to the
18 defined benefit plan. The Legislature reversed
19 course and reinstated the defined benefit plan
20 at tremendous costs to the State. Those who
21 happened to retire before the conversion back
22 to the defined benefit plan simply received
23 lower benefit payments.
24 Now, surely you are all aware that markets
25 go both up and down. Ten years ago in Japan,
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 47
February 23, 1999
1 the NIKKI index was at 40,000. Today, it is
2 14,000. That's a decline of 65 percent.
3 Sixty-five percent in ten years.
4 Ladies and gentlemen, I submit that if, God
5 forbid, we have a ten-year period with the
6 results even half as bad as that experienced in
7 one of the largest economies of the nation --
8 of the world, the citizens of this state will
9 be storming the gates of the Bastille seeking
10 the heads of the fools who led them into the
11 defined contribution debacle.
12 Last fall, the Wall Street Journal reported
13 that a decade ago, England went from a long
14 history of a defined benefit base to a defined
15 contribution format. The results have been a
16 disaster. Upwards of three million people have
17 lost their retirement income security, and the
18 price tag to fix the system is now estimated at
19 up to eighteen billion dollars.
20 It will likely be far higher when all the
21 numbers are counted. This result came in spite
22 of a massive educational effort, and was
23 compounded by fraud and misrepresentation.
24 Do not be rushed into a fundamental change
25 because some special interest groups are
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 48
February 23, 1999
1 clamoring for it, and have lobbied the
2 Legislature in a massive effort to get their
3 way.
4 Take your time, gentlemen and ladies.
5 Study the issue thoroughly. Have the SBA and
6 the FRS examine alternatives. Consider
7 adjustments to the defined benefit plan, such
8 as five-year vesting, which was mentioned here,
9 to make it more equitable; and consider a
10 defined contribution supplement to make it
11 more -- to provide for the portability that's
12 desired. But please recognize also that
13 portability is often an illusion in a defined
14 contribution plan.
15 According to the Federal Reserve Bank,
16 70 percent of those changing employers do not
17 roll over their defined contribution plans.
18 They take the money, pay a penalty, and
19 effectively eviscerate their retirement income.
20 I urge you to maintain the retirement
21 income security only provided with a defined
22 benefit base.
23 In closing, consider the words of advice
24 provided by our newly elected Governor in his
25 inaugural address of January 5, 1999.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 49
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: No fair.
2 MR. GARVY: Quote: As we address the great
3 challenges into the next century, we need not
4 only ask what's new, we should more often ask
5 what's best. For the things that are best will
6 endure, and the things that are merely new will
7 still soon become old and discarded.
8 And so today I ask: What is best, what
9 endures.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Bob.
12 That was a great line.
13 I may be hearing it from time to time.
14 MR. HERNDON: The -- the next speaker that
15 I have is Larry Carmichael with the Florida
16 Retired Educators Association.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Larry, if I could ask you
18 to stay within 3 minutes so that the other
19 items, people that are waiting, can have a
20 chance to speak as well.
21 MR. CARMICHAEL: Thank you.
22 Governor and members of the Cabinet, half
23 of my speech was on the first topic, so I'll be
24 able to cover that in 3 minutes then.
25 We -- I'm Larry Carmichael, representing
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 50
February 23, 1999
1 the Florida Retired Educators Association. I
2 want to address pension benefit reform. We do
3 not believe that it is prudent to enact any
4 legislation, either the three bills that have
5 been proposed, until recommendation 10 of the
6 Unfunded Actuarial Working Group have been
7 completed. There are three steps in that
8 defining the goals, objectives, and mechanisms
9 for pension benefit reform.
10 And additionally, we feel that in regard to
11 a defined contribution program, we need a
12 definitive study that would outline the
13 administrative costs, impacts of such a program
14 on existing plans, and perhaps identifying some
15 safeguard, if there are any, for the employee
16 funds that go into this.
17 In addition, Bob, the previous speaker,
18 mentioned education. Extensive education of
19 the employees affected would -- would be
20 required.
21 Just urge you that there is no urgency in
22 pension benefit reform. We can do the study,
23 we can move with deliberate speed, and not
24 create problems that might occur if we react
25 too quickly, and jump on the attractiveness of
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 51
February 23, 1999
1 portability and immediate investment.
2 Thank you.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. HERNDON: The next speaker that I have
5 is Georgia Slack, representing the Independent
6 Retirement Commission.
7 And then the final speaker that I have is
8 Marvin Clayton, with the Florida Professional
9 Firefighters. If there's anybody else that
10 I've overlooked.
11 MS. SLACK: Good morning, Governor, members
12 of the Cabinet. I can't quote you, Governor,
13 but I will say I sat out in that freezing cold
14 and watched you get inaugurated, and then got
15 sick. So, you know, I'm -- I was there.
16 My name is Georgia Slack. I serve as one
17 of the co-directors of a group called the
18 Independent Retirement Commission, the IRC. I
19 also am a retired school district employee. I
20 have a little different perspective on the
21 defined -- benefit defined contribution
22 discussion.
23 I'm not here this morning to advocate
24 either defined benefit or defined contribution
25 plan. There is no one size that fits all when
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 52
February 23, 1999
1 it comes to retirement strategy. What I'm here
2 is to advocate individual opportunity, choice,
3 if you will.
4 My role here is to tell you about the
5 genesis of the IRC and its proposed
6 legislation. Our proposal is being tagged the
7 teacher's plan. It should be noted that it
8 applies to all public school employees.
9 The IRC represents the total
10 public education family in Florida. It
11 includes both teacher's unions, the
12 school boards association, the superintendents'
13 association, the administrator's association.
14 It also includes a former director of
15 retirement from Washington state, which has had
16 a successful switch from a DB to DC plan. And
17 it includes a former actuary for the state of
18 Florida who really understands the Florida
19 Retirement System, as does -- as do the current
20 administrators of the FRS.
21 It's a natural -- the IRC is a natural
22 outgrowth of events which led us to believe
23 that Florida is on the brink of change in the
24 arena of public retirement options.
25 The education family feels that it wants to
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 53
February 23, 1999
1 lead this movement, it doesn't want to be lead.
2 Two years ago, the 1997 Legislature and the
3 Governor commissioned a Work Force 2000
4 Committee to look into the full range of public
5 personnel practices in Florida. One of that
6 group's recommendations give people a
7 retirement option.
8 The 1998 Legislature considered legislation
9 about -- to establish optional retirement
10 programs. It -- the legislation did not pass,
11 but it led to the organization of the UL-- UAL
12 Work Group, which Mr. Herndon so ably lead.
13 To the education family, it is all strong
14 signs that change is coming. So we organized
15 the independent retirement group because we
16 want to be protective.
17 To our knowledge, this is the first time
18 all the education factions in one state have
19 come together on this issue. It is a
20 controversial issue. The IRC has been working
21 all summer. It has come up with proposed
22 legislation to implement an optional retirement
23 plan, a DC plan.
24 Our proposal affects only our
25 public education folks. We know there are
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 54
February 23, 1999
1 other bills that already have been filed and
2 are up for consideration in the Legislature
3 which would affect all employees. All of them
4 have merit. Our proposed measure deals with
5 us, with the people that we represent.
6 We've done a great deal of work on this
7 proposal. We've studied the details, we've
8 done the analysis, we've posed and answered the
9 hard questions. We have no intention of
10 hurting the defined benefit plan.
11 And one of the things that I think you all
12 need to be aware of is that 70 percent of the
13 people who go into the Florida Retirement
14 System never collect a penny because they leave
15 before they are there long enough to be
16 eligible. Seventy percent.
17 So for folks like me who hang in there -- I
18 started very young -- who hang in there, it's a
19 great thing. But for folks who want to move in
20 and move out and do other things, it has a
21 definite downside.
22 We've designed a plan that will protect --
23 I want to repeat that -- protect the current
24 defined benefit plan, yet still give our
25 employees a choice.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 55
February 23, 1999
1 It's a plan that gives both current and
2 future employees a choice. It's a plan that
3 protects retirees, folks like me who benefit
4 from the FRS system already. It doesn't
5 mandate anything. It doesn't take benefits
6 away from anything. It's good for the State,
7 it's good for public employees.
8 Our goal is to give school district
9 employees the opportunity to participate in
10 what is now a current national trend. We also
11 believe that it's a goal that meshes with your
12 pro-- with your goal, Governor, of making
13 education in Florida the best in the nation.
14 And this is why.
15 Education is many things. But by in large,
16 it lives, or dies, or improves, on the quality
17 of its teachers. Salaries aside -- we know
18 that's of paramount importance -- we believe
19 there's nothing that will improve the quality
20 of teaching more than the ability to recruit
21 and retain teachers. And if we are able to do
22 that while saying to people, you don't have to
23 come here for a lifetime, you don't have to put
24 in 30 years, you don't have to hang in here
25 for sixty-two years, and there will be some
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 56
February 23, 1999
1 retirement benefits, it's the best recruitment
2 tool you'll ever come up with, and it doesn't
3 cost you a dime.
4 In fact, we have an independent actuarial
5 analysis that indicates the DC option will
6 enhance the fiscal soundness of the DB plan.
7 It will enhance it, it won't hurt it.
8 The last thing I want to say is that
9 university and community college teachers have
10 had the optional retirement plan, an ORP, since
11 1984. They've all taken advantage of it. It
12 hasn't doomed the defined benefit plan, it
13 hasn't hurt anything.
14 And in our opinion, if it's good enough for
15 university teachers, and it's good enough for
16 community college teachers, it ought to be good
17 enough for our teachers who are teaching our
18 children.
19 Thank you.
20 TREASURER NELSON: Can I ask a question?
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. Please,
22 Commissioner.
23 MS. SLACK: Don't ask me hard questions,
24 sir.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think you can --
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 57
February 23, 1999
1 TREASURER NELSON: This is an easy
2 question, but I'd love to know the answer.
3 MS. SLACK: Okay.
4 TREASURER NELSON: The retired teachers
5 took a position opposite of you.
6 MS. SLACK: Uh-hum.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Explain.
8 MS. SLACK: Okay. That's easy to explain.
9 Through the IRC, I've had six months of
10 education. And education is a key component of
11 this switch. I have actually been involved in
12 a nationwide study on the movement from DB to
13 DC plans. I have finally learned to understand
14 the difference between DC and DB plan, I have
15 met with actuaries, I have seen actuarial
16 studies. I have been educated to the point
17 that I know you can do both without hurting the
18 DB plan.
19 I honestly think it's simply a matter of
20 opening up your mind, looking at the facts,
21 listening to actuaries, and understanding that
22 nobody's trying to hurt the DB plan.
23 I really believe it's education.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
25 Stay out of cold weather, too.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 58
February 23, 1999
1 MS. SLACK: Yes, sir. Please, next time,
2 inside, okay?
3 MR. HERNDON: The -- the next speaker that
4 I have is Marvin Clayton, representing the
5 Florida Professional Firefighters. And we did
6 get two more volunteers after that.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Three minutes, Marvin.
8 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, Governor.
9 Good morning, Governor, members of the
10 Cabinet. I'm Marvin Clayton. I have -- for
11 twenty-seven-and-a-half years was involved in
12 pensions with the state of Florida through the
13 Municipal Police Officers and Fire Pension
14 Fund. I served under six Insurance
15 Commissioners, the last being Commissioner
16 Tom Gallagher over here.
17 The fire and police pension fund served
18 about 30,000 people. And in my experience with
19 them, I can tell you that members, especially
20 young members of pension funds, will do
21 everything they possibly can to get their money
22 out of a plan early in employment, in their
23 employment life.
24 We had them try everything: My
25 mother-in-law's coming to live with me, she's
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 59
February 23, 1999
1 ill; my car's broke down, I need it to travel;
2 my baby's sick; everything.
3 They will try to do that. So we urge you,
4 whatever you do in the final analysis of this
5 pension problem, is try to build upon what you
6 have, and not try to make it a total option to
7 go from one to the other. Because ultimately
8 I believe that Mr. Garvy was correct.
9 The other thing I'd like to do this morning
10 is point out to you that the SBA and its staff
11 and the -- and Andy McMullen and their staff
12 have done a super job.
13 I deal with Andy McMullen's office almost
14 on a daily basis. And if you -- if it sounds
15 like I'm singing their praises, it's not just
16 him, but it's his entire staff. They operate
17 the Florida Retirement System on about $20 per
18 person, per member of the system. The top
19 three range from 40 to 88 --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. The top three
21 arrangement --
22 MR. CLAYTON: The top three range from 40
23 to 88, the largest being New York -- the other
24 top three.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 60
February 23, 1999
1 MR. CLAYTON: And I don't think they can --
2 can be applauded enough for what they do.
3 So with that, we thank you very much for
4 allowing us to appear.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
6 MR. HERNDON: We've, as I said, picked up
7 two additional members of the audience that
8 would like to be heard, and they both indicated
9 they'd do this very quickly.
10 David Murley (sic) with the Florida PBA.
11 MR. MURRELL: Good morning.
12 My name is David Murrell with the Florida
13 PBA. I won't belabor the point of what other
14 speakers have said.
15 But what I would like to do is remind you
16 that in the Legislature, and I know a lot of
17 you have been in the Legislature, you've been
18 around the Legislature, that probably the three
19 most powerful words are waive the rules.
20 There's also something very familiar with
21 the Legislature as well: Beware of the law of
22 unintended consequences. And I think that's
23 what we're dealing with here. We implore you
24 and the Legislature to be aware of this law, to
25 tread carefully.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 61
February 23, 1999
1 Thank you.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, David.
3 MR. HERNDON: And the final speaker that I
4 have is Marshall Ogletree with FTP-NEA.
5 MR. OGLETREE: Governor, members of the
6 Cabinet, I want to say, we're at an historic
7 time in FRS. We have a chance, I think, to
8 reinvest the monies that we're saving through
9 the UAL study, and invest in teacher and school
10 employee salaries, and I would encourage you to
11 be with us in supporting that issue with the
12 Legislature.
13 And it's also a time, like some of the
14 other speakers mentioned, that we can improve
15 defined benefit provisions. I think we should
16 look at that, and strengthen those provisions.
17 As Ms. Slack said, we are also a part of
18 the commission that supports the option for DC
19 for education employees only. I want to
20 emphasize that. We are not supporting the
21 bills in terms of the other employees, because,
22 you know, police and fire, State employees,
23 they have different needs than our employees
24 have. We're here to represent -- the school
25 employees need this option to benefit our
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 62
February 23, 1999
1 group, to recruit and attract and retain people
2 as Ms. Slack said.
3 And last, but not least, if we go to this
4 plan for school employees, which we do support,
5 we must not scrimp in the education component.
6 The education component is the key provision to
7 make this bill viable for our members that we
8 represent.
9 And I appreciate the time.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I ask a question?
11 Why -- why -- why just educators? If -- if
12 you are convinced that this is the right way to
13 go, and that it doesn't cost money, and for --
14 for the people that are already in the -- in
15 the current system, and that all the -- all the
16 merits that were expressed, why wouldn't it be
17 beneficial to other public employees as well?
18 MR. OGLETREE: Well, I think there are
19 different provisions that exist for police and
20 fire, for instance, that are much different
21 than ours.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: What about State workers?
23 MR. OGLETREE: They have a lesser tenure to
24 get their retirement. I think there's a
25 greater maintenance of employees and retention.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 63
February 23, 1999
1 I just think to force groups that are not
2 interested in doing this is the wrong thing to
3 do.
4 You know, let us be the example, and if
5 it's positive down the road, then other groups
6 may want to get in the mix. But --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: So your -- your plan is not
8 optional.
9 MR. OGLETREE: Yeah, our plan is optional.
10 And that's another important provision of it.
11 It's not to force anybody to move from one to
12 the other.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
14 MR. OGLETREE: The optional aspects of it
15 is -- you know, the other provision that's
16 extremely important that we can't really
17 change. If we change that, I think the --
18 Mr. Garvy's comments are right on target.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: About Bastille?
20 MR. OGLETREE: Yeah.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: And I think you're right.
22 MR. HERNDON: Governor, members, that's --
23 that are all the speakers that we have
24 identified for today.
25 This item was submitted for information and
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 64
February 23, 1999
1 discussion. There's no specific action.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner.
3 TREASURER NELSON: I'll defer to my
4 colleague if he'd like to go first.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I'll -- I'll
6 go first, Commissioner. Thank you. Appreciate
7 the deferral.
8 I -- I'm trying to look at this again from
9 our responsibility as Trustees. Regardless of
10 what I may think of defined contribution and
11 defined benefit plan, I've got to look at it
12 first with the fiduciary aspects of being the
13 Trustee.
14 And I'm taken by your analysis, recognizing
15 that your analysis is not maybe in as much
16 depth as we ultimately do it. And -- and I --
17 as you know, I have some questions and want to
18 dig into it further.
19 But I -- the bottom line here, the cost
20 impact, in reference to the defined benefit
21 plan and the impact on the defined benefit
22 plan.
23 We just finished a discussion on the
24 contribution rate. And if I read this
25 correctly, what this means is that with a
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 65
February 23, 1999
1 defined contribution plan, any one of the
2 three, we would have to see an increase of
3 approximately 30 percent in the contribution
4 rate to cover --
5 MR. HERNDON: Yes.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- in the long run,
7 to cover the costs incurred by the defined
8 benefit plan.
9 Is that a fair statement?
10 MR. HERNDON: The current proposed
11 contribution --
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. Current
13 proposed, yes.
14 MR. HERNDON: Using -- using the regular
15 class of employees as the proxy, since that's
16 the largest class, it's about
17 nine-and-a-quarter percent projected
18 contribution rate. And the estimates that have
19 been provided to us by one of the actuaries is
20 that would add about 3 percent total to --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Or a -- or a
22 30 percent increase.
23 MR. HERNDON: -- percent increase. Right.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. Thank you.
25 MR. HERNDON: I was coming to your point.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 66
February 23, 1999
1 That is, as you and I talked about, the --
2 in effect, the worst case several years out.
3 Now, I also need to -- to say, Governor,
4 and members, that the folks from the
5 Independent Retirement Commission gave me a
6 copy just a little while ago of their actuary
7 study which indicates a cost savings.
8 We obviously haven't had a chance to
9 reconcile these. And that, I think, maybe
10 points out one of the problems that we have in
11 dealing with this kind of legislation. So we
12 really do have some pretty substantial
13 disagreements.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The point I'm trying
15 to make really is that there are some concerns
16 that there could be some out-year costs, and
17 that we need to -- as -- again, as the
18 Trustees, be concerned about that aspect of it.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner.
20 TREASURER NELSON: Well, Governor, and my
21 colleague, General Milligan, I think that a
22 discussion of this ought to proceed with an
23 understanding of what are our goals and
24 objectives for this retirement system.
25 What do we need to know before we decide
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 67
February 23, 1999
1 how to get there? For example, if we want to
2 improve the possibility of recruits staying
3 with us, then we need to look at issues like
4 portability and lowering the vesting
5 requirement.
6 And I would just say up front that -- that
7 I'm in favor of -- of lowering the vesting from
8 ten years to some lesser number, and -- and
9 would encourage the Legislature to do that.
10 And would also, from this Trustee's point
11 of view, encourage them to make portability
12 more available. I mean, it is the -- it is the
13 de jure fact of today that in a lot of the
14 pension systems, they have been improved by
15 allowing portability of those systems. And
16 I think that would be an improvement.
17 I think we also should concentrate on the
18 benefits of the existing system where we have
19 had the incentive for retaining personnel for a
20 longer period of time so that we can benefit
21 from the continuity, from their historic
22 perspective, their expertise, and their
23 experience, while minimizing the cost of
24 retraining and recruiting.
25 And so that is some of the strengths there.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 68
February 23, 1999
1 So any change in our pension system should
2 be decided based on what our goals and
3 objectives are.
4 Now, if you look at some of our goals and
5 objectives, it's to attract qualified people;
6 to recruit qualified -- highly qualified
7 people; to retain experienced employees; to
8 reward career employees; that there be income
9 security in retirement; that there be benefits
10 fairly and equitable -- equitably funded for
11 all employees, regardless of their income
12 level; that we have the income protection --
13 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
14 room.)
15 TREASURER NELSON: -- in case of disability
16 or death prior to retirement; that there build
17 up cash reserves from which the employee may
18 borrow; to give employees responsibility for
19 their own futures; the portability that I
20 mentioned; and understanding the value of their
21 benefits.
22 And so I think we are -- I think this is a
23 very heavy decision that the Legislature has
24 got to -- to make. And I think if we encourage
25 them to make that in regard to our goals and
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 69
February 23, 1999
1 objectives, in an abundance of caution, we
2 ought to shift our attention to these guiding
3 principles.
4 I'm concerned about us acting too swiftly.
5 I don't want to have any harm to the present
6 system which has been so beneficial. It must
7 be funded on an actuarially sound basis so that
8 there will be a reliable retirement benefit.
9 Now, with that as a basic statement, where
10 do you want to go from here?
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I have both the
12 responsibility of being Governor, where I do
13 have a relationship with the Legislature that's
14 different, and the Trustee.
15 And where I'd like to go is, first of all,
16 to make sure that the Legislature has adequate
17 information in advance of their passing bills
18 because this -- we're lowering the contribution
19 rate, which the Working Group and staff has
20 said is acceptable; that it is sound; that
21 is -- that it is -- we're not violating any
22 fiduciary responsibilities as Trustees. And to
23 make these changes on top of it without
24 thorough review of what the consequences are in
25 the out years, I'm not going to let happen as
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 70
February 23, 1999
1 Governor.
2 So in order to ensure that the benefits of
3 this -- and I have an open mind about the --
4 the benefits of portability and giving --
5 giving more options and more choices, and
6 providing greater benefits for -- for workers.
7 That is the modern way, that's the post
8 modern way. The private sector has had great
9 success in that regard. I'm totally open to
10 that.
11 But we need to make sure the Legislature
12 has all of the information available to
13 understand the costs, or I will act as Governor
14 to ensure that there be ample time to review
15 this in a different way.
16 So whatever the means there is to give them
17 that information, and to provide -- provide
18 that rather quickly, I guess we've got another
19 item perhaps that maybe -- maybe what we should
20 do, Commissioner, is to have a -- to take this
21 summary of the different bills, and to do a
22 little bit more work on them to come back to us
23 next -- the first week, I guess it would be, or
24 the second week of the legislative session, so
25 that we can give our consent to -- to this
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 71
February 23, 1999
1 report and make sure that the Legislature
2 understands our concerns about moving one way
3 or the other very quickly.
4 Is that -- and whether the guiding
5 principles -- those are a lot of principles to
6 be guided by, but -- but they all sounded
7 very -- very sound to me. I mean, that's
8 exactly what we should be looking at.
9 And -- and I think it was David Murrell who
10 brought up the law of unintended consequences.
11 This -- to me, I think that law is hovering
12 over us as we speak, and we should be very
13 careful.
14 Thank you for the report.
15 MR. HERNDON: Thank you, Governor.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you going to come back
17 next Cabinet meeting with something a little
18 bit more specific to --
19 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- bring all the different
21 act-- independent actuarial assessments, and
22 all the -- that would be grate-- I'd be
23 grateful for it.
24 MR. HERNDON: We'll do our -- our level
25 best to try and distill this out.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 72
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just a couple weeks.
2 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir.
3 The last item on the agenda is the
4 appointment to the Florida Hurricane
5 Catastrophe Fund Advisory Council of
6 Larry D. Johnson as actuary.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move the
8 appointment.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. HERNDON: Thank you, Governor.
13 Thank you.
14 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
15 was concluded.)
16 *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 73
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance.
2 MR. WATKINS: Good morning.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
4 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 1 is approval of
5 the minutes of the January 26th meeting.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the minutes.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is
10 authorization to distribute an RFP in
11 connection with obtaining a credit facility for
12 the Comptroller's Equipment Financing Program.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is
18 authorization for the competitive sale and
19 issuance of six hundred and fifty
20 million dollars in PECO refunding bonds.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 4 is
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 74
February 23, 1999
1 authorization of the competitive sale of
2 seventy-four million eighty-five thousand of
3 Education Capital Outlay Bonds on behalf of
4 local school districts.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 5 is a resolution
10 authorizing the issuance and competitive sale
11 of up to a hundred and forty million dollars of
12 right-of-way refunding bonds for Department of
13 Transportation.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 6 is a resolution
19 authorizing the distribution of an RFP for
20 bond counsel for continuation of the P2000
21 program, and the anticipated implementation of
22 the Florida Forever Program.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 75
February 23, 1999
1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 7 is a report of
3 the award on the competitive sale of two
4 hundred and fifty million dollars of lottery
5 revenue bonds. The bonds were awarded to the
6 low bidder at a true interest cost rate of
7 4.5368 percent.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion, with a
9 congratulations of a great rate.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
14 Item Number 8 is a report of award on the
15 competitive sale of a PECO refunding. The
16 bonds were sold at competitive sale, and
17 awarded to the low bidder at a true interest
18 cost rate of 4.75 percent, resulting in gross
19 savings of approximately 15 million, and
20 present value savings of approximately
21 9 million.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 76
February 23, 1999
1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 9 is a report of
3 award on the competitive sale of two hundred
4 and twenty million dollars of PECO refunding
5 bonds. The bonds were sold at a true interest
6 cost rate of 4.79 percent, resulting in gross
7 savings of approximately 19.7 million, and
8 present value savings of approximately
9 11.9 million.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection.
14 I'd like to just pause. We're just going
15 right through these things, two hundred and
16 twenty million dollars just got refinanced.
17 It's just -- you add a few zeros, it starts
18 adding up, doesn't it?
19 MR. WATKINS: Absolutely. We get very busy
20 taking advantage of the historically low
21 interest rates to refund outstanding high
22 coupon debt with lower interest rate debt.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
24 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 10 is a report of
25 award of eight million four hundred and
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 77
February 23, 1999
1 thirty-five thousand of parking revenue bonds
2 for the University of Central Florida. Bonds
3 were sold at competitive sale at a true
4 interest cost rate of 4.53 percent.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
11 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
12 concluded.)
13 *
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 78
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Florida Land and Water
2 Adjudicatory Commission.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No
4 Administration Commission, Governor?
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry.
6 Administration Commission. Excuse me.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Been sitting there
8 waiting all --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Donna, apologize.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Anxiously
11 awaiting.
12 MS. ARDUIN: Thank you, Governor --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: My --
14 MS. ARDUIN: -- Cabinet. I have only two
15 items for you today.
16 The first is approval of the minutes for
17 the meeting held February 9th, 1999.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
19 minutes.
20 MS. ARDUIN: I recommend --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 MS. ARDUIN: The last item is rec-- I
24 recommend approval of a transfer of general
25 revenue for the Department of Children and
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 79
February 23, 1999
1 Families.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, it's approved.
6 MS. ARDUIN: Thank you.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Donna.
8 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
9 concluded.)
10 *
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 80
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: The Florida Land and Water
2 Adjudicatory Commission.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
4 minutes.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second on
6 minutes.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 1 has been moved and
8 seconded without objection.
9 MS. TINKER: Item --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Number 2.
11 MS. TINKER: Item 2, recommend approval of
12 the proposed final rule amendment expanding the
13 boundaries of the Crossings at Fleming Island
14 Community Development District.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it is approved.
19 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
20 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
21 *
22
23
24
25
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE 81
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Department of Revenue.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
3 minutes.
4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
5 MR. FUCHS: Item 1 is a request to approval
6 of the minutes of the January --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved --
8 MR. FUCHS: -- 23rd --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MR. FUCHS: Item 2, request for approval
12 and authority to file with the Secretary of
13 State, proposed amendments to Rule
14 Chapter 12-21, Administrative Code, on the
15 levy, seizure, and sale of property.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Director.
22 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
23 concluded.)
24 *
25
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 82
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education.
2 Item 1.
3 MR. PIERSON: Item 1, Florida Education
4 Employment Council for Women and Girls annual
5 report.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, this
7 morning I have the pleasure of recognizing the
8 tenth anniversary of the Florida Education
9 Employment Council for Women and Girls.
10 The Council was established in 1989 for the
11 purpose of advising the Commissioner and
12 the Board of Education on all equity matters
13 pertaining to the education and employment of
14 women and girls.
15 This year's report is entitled Registered
16 Apprenticeships in the Nontraditional
17 Occupation --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: You want to wait till the
19 slide show begins, Commissioner?
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Not particularly.
21 But I --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Go ahead then.
23 I'm sorry.
24 Excuse me.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- Accessing
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February 23, 1999
1 Opportunities and Overcoming Barriers.
2 The 1998 report examines the registered
3 apprenticeship programs as an avenue of
4 on-the-job training, offering women, as well as
5 men, high skilled, high wage employment, health
6 and welfare benefits for the worker and her
7 family.
8 With us in the audience this morning are
9 the Council members, and would those please
10 stand up.
11 And we'd like to recognize you. And making
12 the presentation -- we --
13 (Applause.)
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And making the
15 presentation this morning will be
16 Dr. Janie Gooden Greenleaf, Director of the
17 Institute for Professional Development,
18 Barry University.
19 Doctor.
20 DR. GREENLEAF: Good morning, Honorable
21 Jeb Bush; and Honorable Katherine Harris,
22 Secretary of State; Honorable Bob Butterworth,
23 Attorney General; Robert Milligan, Comptroller;
24 Bill Nelson, Commissioner and Treasurer; and
25 Bob Crawford, Commissioner; and Tom Gallagher,
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 84
February 23, 1999
1 our esteemed Commissioner of Education.
2 On behalf of the Florida Education and
3 Employment Council for Women and Girls, I am
4 pleased to present to you our ninth annual
5 report.
6 For the past ten years, the Council has
7 focused its efforts on issues of great
8 importance to women and girls of Florida.
9 Three years ago, at the beginning of
10 welfare reform, the Council began investigating
11 the effects of the changes brought by this
12 legislation on women and children, who
13 represent the vast majority of people on
14 welfare.
15 Previous studies have investigated the
16 shortage of affordable, high quality child
17 care, not only for women moving from welfare to
18 work, but for the working poor, and for all
19 working families in Florida.
20 In a continuing effort to investigate
21 issues relevant to women for attaining a living
22 wage, and to assure a quality life for
23 themselves and their children, the Council has
24 been studying various job training programs.
25 This report focuses specifically on registered
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February 23, 1999
1 apprenticeships and occupational trades,
2 especially those that are nontraditional for
3 women.
4 The Council found these trades not well
5 publicized and are not being accessed by women
6 in particular.
7 (Governor Bush exited the room.)
8 DR. GREENLEAF: For more than 50 years, as
9 men in the armed forces engaged in
10 World War II, over 6 million women, and not so
11 young women at that, took their places in heavy
12 war production industries, in shipyards,
13 aircraft plants, and 19 other key industry.
14 Rosie the Riveter, and her compatriots,
15 performed the duties of eight out of every ten
16 jobs normally done by men.
17 Women became welders, machinists, and
18 aircraft builders. Lasting social change was
19 brought about by women working not only out of
20 the home, but also in jobs that had long been
21 considered belonging to men.
22 A few companies recognizing the burden of
23 women with families instituted specific on-site
24 services, such as child care centers, shopping,
25 food services for take home meals.
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February 23, 1999
1 The American Airpower Heritage Museum,
2 1998, indicates that while women were paid only
3 50 percent of what men earned, Rosie the
4 Riveter was, indeed, the beginning of the
5 women's movement in industry.
6 Our 1999 report is a continued analysis of
7 strategies to assist all women of Florida to
8 achieve self-sufficiency for themselves and for
9 their families. It examines registered
10 apprenticeship programs as an avenue for
11 on-the-job training.
12 It is researched -- our research shows that
13 apprenticeship programs offers women, as well
14 as men, high skilled, high wage employment and
15 health benefits for the worker as well as the
16 family.
17 (Governor Bush entered the room.)
18 DR. GREENLEAF: A woman heads most single
19 paycheck families. It is critical that she is
20 guided in a direction to earn a paycheck
21 sufficient in sum to support herself and
22 children without reliance on outside help.
23 Despite the fact that registered
24 apprenticeships could fill the educational
25 employment needs of many women, as well as men,
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February 23, 1999
1 it is -- it fills the requirement for the
2 Welfare Reform Act. Few women are opting to
3 participate.
4 Our report attempts to understand the
5 reasons why few women are entering the
6 apprenticeships, and what actions could be
7 taken to assist women in accessing these
8 apprenticeships in the future.
9 We believe that training and employment in
10 occupations, paying a living wage, will
11 ultimately solve the problems posed by welfare
12 reform.
13 We also believe that training in --
14 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
15 DR. GREENLEAF: -- viable occupations will
16 ensure that women and their children will live
17 free of poverty and the dangers that accompany
18 poverty.
19 We feel that traditional female occupations
20 are among the lowest paying work available. It
21 certainly makes sense that women can examine
22 occupations that are nontraditional for their
23 gender.
24 We also feel that registered
25 apprenticeships in construction trades and
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February 23, 1999
1 other nontraditional occupations could be the
2 solution for welfare reform.
3 Career exploration, recruitment, placement,
4 and retention must be aggressively planned and
5 implemented to help assure women's success in
6 nontraditional occupations, and registered
7 apprenticeship. Strategies to address women
8 barriers face -- the barriers that women face
9 enduring nontraditional employment must be
10 thoughtfully developed and implemented by
11 employers, unions --
12 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
13 DR. GREENLEAF: -- and educational
14 institutions.
15 Our goals, therefore, are to increase the
16 number of women in secondary schools who take
17 advanced courses in mathematics, science,
18 technical, and vocational courses, particularly
19 in those areas usually considered
20 nontraditional for their gender.
21 To increase the number of women who leave
22 or graduate from secondary schools who proceed
23 into trades and technical areas, particularly
24 registered apprenticeships; and to increase the
25 number of mature women who select
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February 23, 1999
1 apprenticeships as a second occupation.
2 Armed with knowledge and benefits of
3 traditional, nontraditional occupations, women,
4 we hope, will certainly select the trades as an
5 occupation.
6 This slide gives us an idea of how our work
7 force will look like in the year 2000. If we
8 add the numbers, we will see that 63 percent of
9 our work force will be comprised of women.
10 The next slide shows us apprenticeship -- a
11 summary of apprenticeship by gender. This is
12 not a surprise to all, but we see the
13 comparison.
14 We also did a comparison of apprenticeship
15 summary by ethnicity.
16 While many people were a part of the
17 research and contributed to this research, we
18 certainly want to give special thanks to our
19 Commissioner for this opportunity, to
20 Joe Stephens, and to Barbara Gershman.
21 For the research, we'd like to give thanks
22 to Carol Darling; Steve Sorg;
23 Kathleen McKenzie, our Executive Director.
24 Now, oftentimes we're asked, where are
25 these women? And we'd like to share with you
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1 some of the success stories that we found as we
2 did most of this research.
3 The first picture is of a young lady by the
4 name of Jeanne Owens. She's a first year
5 electrical apprentice. She enjoys work, and
6 she recommends electrical apprenticeship to
7 many other women.
8 Our next picture is of a young lady by the
9 name of Susan Anderson, who is in a
10 preapprenticeship program. She is an
11 electrician's helper. She says: It qualifies
12 a woman to meet the needs of everyday life, and
13 you merely need motivation and a desire to do
14 better.
15 The next picture is of Jennifer Kenny.
16 Jennifer is a single mother who became a
17 journeyman electrician. She says: A woman
18 needs determination and not a large build.
19 Jennifer is a very, very petite young lady.
20 We've brought to you -- for you to hear
21 this morning a brief testimony of one of our
22 success stories. Her name is
23 Celeste Christian.
24 Celeste, would you come up?
25 MS. CHRISTIAN: Governor, honorable members
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February 23, 1999
1 of Cabinet, I'm with the Electrical Workers
2 Local 606 apprenticeship program in Orlando.
3 Where I became involved in this program is
4 the worst two months of my life, and it became
5 the most beneficial.
6 Back in May I was stopped, believe it or
7 not, on a random license check, and because of
8 a computer error, I was hauled off to the
9 Orange County Jail. During that two-month stay
10 it took to straighten out, I became involved
11 with the preapprenticeship program that they
12 offered there. And at that point in my life,
13 if you'd have told me that I would ever be
14 involved in the construction industry, I would
15 have laughed at you.
16 During that episode, the preapprenticeship
17 program taught me that, (A), it took many
18 skilled workers to construct any structure. It
19 wasn't just like in the old days, everybody got
20 together, put up a building. It doesn't work
21 that way.
22 They taught me a first aid class, which I
23 recently used at the scene of an automobile
24 accident; they taught me CPR; they taught me
25 the OSHA safety rules.
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February 23, 1999
1 I was released, like I said, two months
2 later at 11:00 o'clock at night, and I had two
3 decisions in my life to make. One, I could
4 either go on welfare and go to the food stamp
5 office the next day; or I could go and find out
6 if these people were all they cracked up to be.
7 I made the latter decision, and I'm very
8 happy that I did, thanks to Janet Skipper. I
9 made a phone call; they told me where to go; I
10 went there; they -- they took me to go be drug
11 tested, which is a priority that they have.
12 And then they told me to report to work
13 tomorrow morning at 8:00 o'clock. I did that,
14 and I've been there ever since. And I'm happy
15 that I've done it.
16 I work 40 hours a week at Universal Studios
17 right now with Consolidated Electric, and I
18 attend classes two nights a week.
19 I know -- I've heard about the pension and
20 benefit program here. I know that the day I
21 started work, I became vested in their pension
22 plan. I don't have to worry about being laid
23 off and not having a job. I know the
24 apprenticeship program will find me another
25 job.
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February 23, 1999
1 I don't have to worry about a lot of
2 things. I don't have to worry about going and
3 waiting for a pay raise. For the next
4 five years, I know what my pay's going to be,
5 as long as I do what I'm supposed to do every
6 year.
7 I get respect on the job. Every time that
8 I am given a task and I complete that task, I'm
9 given a harder task to do.
10 And I want to thank you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Excellent.
12 DR. GREENLEAF: We thank you.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, are you going to
14 ask --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. Why don't
16 you all come up, we'll get a picture.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 2.
20 MR. PIERSON: Item 2, adoption of the
21 Seventeenth Supplemental Authorizing Resolution
22 to the Master Authorizing Resolution Adopted on
23 July 21st, 1992, authorizing the issuance of
24 not exceeding 650 million dollars, State of
25 Florida, Full Faith and Credit, State Board of
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 94
February 23, 1999
1 Education Public Education Capital Outlay
2 Refunding Bonds; and a resolution authorizing
3 the competitive sale and delivery of the
4 refunding bonds.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. PIERSON: Item 3, adoption of a
10 resolution authorizing the competitive sale of
11 not exceeding seventy-four million
12 eighty-five thousand State of Florida, Full
13 Faith and Credit, State Board of Education
14 Capital Outlay Bonds, 1999 Series A.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. PIERSON: Item 4, update on the use of
21 seat belts in school buses. We have three
22 speakers on the issue.
23 For the Department, Jeanine Blomberg,
24 Director, Division of Support Services.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, is this part
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February 23, 1999
1 of our --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's part of our
3 educational decision making, policy making --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's what I thought.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- area.
6 Governor, just to start this, there has
7 been a lot of news and other things in recent
8 times about the use of seat belts on school
9 buses, and so this is an issue that has been
10 boiling for quite a while.
11 There are some groups that you're going to
12 hear from that are very interested in us
13 looking at this issue, and I felt this would be
14 a good thing to -- for us to take a look at.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
16 MS. BLOMBERG: Good morning, Governor Bush
17 and Cabinet.
18 As you know, seat belts are not required on
19 school buses in Florida. There are no Federal
20 laws requiring seat belts on buses at this
21 time, and there's no Florida laws requiring
22 seat belts.
23 This has been consider-- a cause of
24 considerable debate. There's been legislation
25 introduced the last two years requiring
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 96
February 23, 1999
1 seat belts. So this morning we are glad to
2 have the opportunity to have two speakers.
3 They're going to very quickly go over the major
4 issues on either side of the debate.
5 First we have Latha -- Latha Krishnaiyer
6 from the Florida PTA. And she will be followed
7 by Jerry Klein from the Florida Association of
8 Pupil Transportation Directors.
9 Okay.
10 We also have a school bus seat that we have
11 for you to see, because many of you may
12 remember the old seat -- seats that are low and
13 have the metal back. So we wanted to -- you to
14 be able to see what a seat belt looks like --
15 or a school bus seat looks like today.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're not without
17 props.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's a good prop, yeah.
19 MS. KRISHNAIYER: Good morning --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
21 MS. KRISHNAIYER: -- Governor Bush, members
22 of the Cabinet. Thank you for inviting us here
23 today to talk to you about this issue.
24 My name is Latha Krishnaiyer, and I'm the
25 President of Florida PTA. We are an
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 97
February 23, 1999
1 organization with a membership of 361,000
2 throughout Florida. And our members are mostly
3 parents and volunteers. We're all volunteers.
4 Two years ago at our annual convention, our
5 membership voted unanimously to adopt a
6 position requiring seat belts on school buses.
7 All of the positions we take put the
8 welfare and safety of children first. Our
9 legislative program and positions are adopted
10 at a general convention, open to all 361,000
11 members of our organization, and all
12 legislative positions -- any legislative
13 position can be proposed by any of our members,
14 and are put on the floor for open debate.
15 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
16 MS. KRISHNAIYER: When a parent puts their
17 child on a school bus, they want to know that
18 they are safe on their way to and from school.
19 Over the last few years, parents around
20 Florida have come to us time and again -- and
21 this is for many years -- and asked us why
22 there were no seats belts on school buses.
23 By our estimate, over 1 million students in
24 Florida ride school buses every day. These
25 same children are taught from birth to buckle
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 98
February 23, 1999
1 up every time they get in a moving vehicle: A
2 car, a van, a plane. It's the law. They know
3 that they are safer when they're buckled up.
4 The only moving vehicle in which they do
5 not need to wear belts for safety is on a
6 school bus. It is not just parents who ask us
7 why there are no belts on buses, it is also the
8 children who ride on them. And we really do
9 not have an answer for them.
10 We adopt our positions based on their
11 importance and improving the lives of children.
12 But they do have to meet our strict criteria,
13 with regards to factual and empirical evidence
14 supported by solid research. In other words,
15 we don't adopt a position just because we want
16 it, or because our emotions tell us we want it.
17 Seat belts on school buses pass this litmus
18 test and was brought before our convention
19 delegates.
20 As I mentioned at the outset, the 700 plus
21 delegates to our 1997 convention voted to make
22 this a priority for our organization. They
23 further voted to take this issue to the
24 national PTA, which numbers six million
25 members.
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February 23, 1999
1 And in June 1998, delegates to the national
2 PTA convention in Nashville, representing
3 parents from all 50 states, the District of
4 Columbia, the Virgin Islands, which was our
5 newest PTA -- at that time, just -- just became
6 a PTA at that convention -- and our DOD schools
7 in Japan and Germany, joined Florida's parents
8 in adopting this issue as a legislative
9 priority.
10 Why do we feel so strongly about this
11 issue, and why do we believe that our children
12 are safer buckled up in school buses?
13 There are five main reasons, all research
14 based. They provide better protection in
15 accidents, especially side impacts and
16 rollovers. Compartmentalization, which you'll
17 hear about, may work fairly well in a frontal
18 impact accident when a child is thrown forward.
19 But if the child is thrown out of the
20 compartment, such as those high padded seats,
21 the padding will not help them.
22 Seat belts will keep children in the padded
23 compartment for safety. In other words,
24 they'll remain in their seat. When they're hit
25 from the side, they do tend to move from side
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 100
February 23, 1999
1 to side, or be popped up. Instead, they will
2 stay on the seat.
3 They help to keep them from injurious and
4 fatal actions, such as putting their arms or
5 heads out of windows or playing by the
6 emergency door and falling out of a moving bus.
7 They improve discipline on a bus. Every
8 study shows that seat belt use on school buses
9 improves student behavior. This will result in
10 fewer driver distraction accidents.
11 The last accident that happened less than
12 3 miles from my home happened because the
13 driver was distracted. This was just about 10,
14 11 days ago.
15 They reduce noncollision injuries. Small
16 children fall off their seats going around
17 curves and over potholes and bumps every day.
18 Most importantly, they reenforce that what
19 we as parents teach them from birth, and what
20 law enforcement officials talk to them in their
21 schools during career day, during seat belt
22 safety week, buckle up.
23 This will lead to a lifelong lifesaving
24 habit. They will continue to buckle up in cars
25 as they're adults.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 101
February 23, 1999
1 We would like you to remember that when we
2 talk about protection, we talk about protection
3 from injuries as well as fatalities. You may
4 hear there are not as many fatalities, and that
5 most of them occur outside the bus. But
6 97 percent of school bus injuries happen inside
7 the bus.
8 You may have also heard that belts will
9 cause injury. Again, the National
10 Transportation Safety Board has not found any
11 significant evidence of belt induced injury on
12 school buses.
13 We also have to remember that every small
14 school bus in this country has been equipped
15 with school -- with seat belts since 1977, and
16 there have been no significant belt related
17 injuries.
18 I would also like to remind you that the
19 state of New York has -- has caused seat belts
20 in place on school buses since 1987, and the
21 state of New Jersey since 1992.
22 We're not alone in our conviction that
23 seat belts will protect children. We're very
24 proud that we are joined by the major medical
25 associations in this nation: The
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 102
February 23, 1999
1 American Medical Association, the American
2 Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of
3 Orthopaedic Surgeons, the American College of
4 Emergency Physicians, and many others join us
5 in advocating for this issue.
6 I live in Broward County, and since the
7 start of the school year, there have been at
8 least six school bus accidents, or so I
9 thought. These were the ones that made the
10 news. These were the ones that were on the
11 evening news and in the Miami Herald and the
12 Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel.
13 And almost all of them -- all of these six
14 I'm talking about in my county had parents that
15 were on TV that night, or on the newspaper the
16 next day, asking why there were no seat belts
17 on school buses. And I was getting phone calls
18 on these.
19 I was very surprised to learn from our
20 transportation department yesterday that there
21 were a total of 117 school bus accidents in
22 Broward County alone since the start of the
23 school year in September. And 50 percent of
24 these accidents occurred when children were on
25 the bus. Granted, some of them may have been
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 103
February 23, 1999
1 fender benders.
2 So this issue is not something I only hear
3 about. It is very real to me. As I said, the
4 last bus accident happened just a couple of
5 miles from my home.
6 As parents rush to the scene of these
7 accidents been bruised -- or where the children
8 have been bruised or suffered cuts and broken
9 bones, or fly into the windshield, they
10 question, why can't they put seat belts on
11 school buses.
12 We can avoid putting our children through
13 anxiety, fear, and missed school days.
14 Before I close, I would like to take a
15 moment to thank Representative
16 Cynthia Chestnut, and Senator Anna Cowin for
17 sponsoring the legislation requiring seat belts
18 on school buses.
19 I would also like to thank Secretary Harris
20 who last year sponsored this legislation for
21 us.
22 I know the issue before you is: Do you
23 want to wait -- wait for the national study.
24 I'd like to also remind you that if you do wait
25 for the study, which as proposed, were to be
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 104
February 23, 1999
1 eight years before seat belts can be put on any
2 school buses before implementation can take
3 place. That's eight years before children are
4 put on a safe bus.
5 In the packet that we have provided for
6 you, there is a tape from CNN, the Time
7 Magazine Impact Program. Please take a moment
8 to view it. It'll demonstrate to you why we
9 passionately believe that our children need the
10 safety and security of seat belts on their
11 school buses.
12 We thank you for listening to us, and if
13 you have any further questions, please do not
14 hesitate to contact us.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
16 MR. KLEIN: Good morning.
17 My name is Jerry Klein. I'm the Senior
18 Executive Director for Miami-Dade County Public
19 Schools, Department of Transportation, the
20 largest district owned and operated school bus
21 fleet in the United States.
22 When I speak to you today on behalf of the
23 Florida Association for Pupil Transportation,
24 for whom I am the current president, we've
25 heard a compelling story concerning the
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 105
February 23, 1999
1 implementation of seat belts on school buses.
2 But there are two sides to every issue and
3 I'd like to present the side that I think
4 maximizes the future of -- of safety of our
5 students on the buses. We have the seat from a
6 school bus over here for your view.
7 And I think it illustrates the
8 compartmentalization approach that has been
9 used in the manufacture of school buses since
10 April of 1977. High, fully backed, fully
11 padded seat cushions in a passive restraint
12 system that provides for a very safe
13 environment for transported students. It's
14 incredibly safe.
15 I have to tell you that one of the most
16 compelling statistics is that in the year 1995,
17 nationally, in the ages of five through twenty,
18 school age children, there were 12 fatalities
19 on school buses. There were 8,165 fatalities
20 of students in the same age and same year in
21 other types of vehicles.
22 School buses have built to withstand
23 enormous forces, and they provide a very safe
24 environment for our transported students.
25 It is our position that anything that
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 106
February 23, 1999
1 enhances students' safety is exactly what we
2 should be moving towards.
3 Now, I have a prepared statement, but I'd
4 rather speak to you on some of the other
5 issues, and I think they're important. They're
6 issues from the heart, because this is clearly
7 an emotionally charged issue, and one that is
8 very -- frequently misunderstood.
9 The -- the crash statistics we can put on
10 the table, the National Transportation Safety
11 Board, National Highway Traffic Safety
12 Administration, the studies from
13 Transport Canada, the manufacturer studies that
14 support the position, and in many cases, that
15 the use of lap belts -- and we're not talking
16 about the kind of belts that are in
17 automobiles. We're talking about lap belts.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's the difference?
19 MR. KLEIN: Well, I think it's a very good
20 question. You have a three-point restraint is
21 what you use in an automobile.
22 The technology of a lap belt is 30-year old
23 technology. You don't put them in cars
24 anymore, because they inherently have problems.
25 One is that when a bus stops short, it
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 107
February 23, 1999
1 causes the torso to move forward and hit the
2 seat in front. Whereas without the seat belt,
3 it's evenly cushioned against the seat back in
4 front.
5 And we've found over the last 25 years that
6 that compartmentalization provides a very safe
7 environment for the students.
8 Now, what the PTA is proposing, what the
9 legislation proposes is lap belts. And our
10 position is, it has not been demonstrated
11 through crash testing, through analysis, that
12 lap belts will improve the margin of safety
13 what is -- for what is already a very safe
14 environment.
15 And there have been studies that show that
16 the safety can be compromised in a number of
17 areas. In terms of evacuation, for example,
18 when seconds are critical, when there's water
19 involved and when there's fire.
20 So there's two sides to this issue.
21 Now, our position is that we want to
22 maximize whatever it is that -- that helps the
23 safety of transported students. There is a
24 study that is being done by the National
25 Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and that
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 108
February 23, 1999
1 study began last summer.
2 It's a two-year study. It will be
3 completed in June of the year 2000. That study
4 is going to provide us with technical data on
5 the next generation of occupant restraint
6 systems for students in school buses.
7 I don't know what it's going to be. I
8 doubt it will be lap belts. But it may be a
9 three-point restraint system, it may be air
10 bags, it may be other types of cushioning
11 systems, it may be the carnival bars that come
12 down. I don't know what it'll be.
13 But I think it's important that we not rush
14 to judgment on an issue like this.
15 Whatever that is in June of 2000, we will
16 rally behind it as a professional association,
17 something that -- and I represent the
18 District Directors and the transport industry
19 in the State of Florida. We want to do what's
20 in the best interest of the transported
21 students and what maximizes safety.
22 But why introduce or pass legislation for
23 something that's 30-year old technology that
24 can create a compromising of safety on the
25 school buses until we know what the Federal
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 109
February 23, 1999
1 government will require as the next generation
2 of passenger restraints.
3 I talk to parents and I see parents after
4 accidents, and it's a very difficult thing
5 to -- to -- to deal with.
6 We've had accidents in Dade County where --
7 they're intrusion accidents, where my personal
8 experience is, I've seen seats crushed to the
9 floor, rows of seats crushed to the floor when
10 something intrudes in that area inside the
11 school bus.
12 It is my opinion that if those students had
13 been held in those seats with those crushing
14 forces, we may have had many more fatalities
15 and serious injuries than what we had in those
16 instances.
17 Now, I'm not saying that in every instance
18 in a school bus accident, a lap belt might not
19 have helped the student. It might. But you
20 have to weigh the benefits in those few
21 instances where it might have had a positive
22 result against the industry in general that may
23 compromise the long-term safety of students.
24 And it is our position that the most
25 prudent approach is one -- let's see what comes
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 110
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1 of the crash testing, crash analysis, let's see
2 what comes forward from the Federal government.
3 We'll all rally behind it.
4 But to put 30-year old technology lap belts
5 on buses at this point, without quantifiable
6 evidence to show it can save students, and not
7 compromise safety, could be a serious problem
8 for our students.
9 And I appreciate your time. I really do.
10 I think it's an important issue.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could I ask a couple of
12 questions?
13 MR. KLEIN: Certainly.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- what of the
15 eight-year study that -- if it takes two years
16 for the -- for the Federal government to finish
17 this study, what -- what is the -- why was the
18 statement made that it takes eight years for --
19 if it is -- if it concludes that something
20 different --
21 MR. KLEIN: It would seem to me it should
22 be done immediately. I don't know what the
23 eight-year lag --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Want to --
25 MS. KRISHNAIYER: I think the proposals are
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 111
February 23, 1999
1 going to be that, you know, by the time
2 every -- everything is tested and everything
3 is -- it'll be eight years before
4 implementation comes into place. That's what
5 we've been given to understand by NHTSA, that
6 it'll be eight years before any legislation can
7 be passed requiring that.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think we're
9 talking two issues. What she's speaking of is
10 that it may -- that the Federal government
11 would allow eight years for different states to
12 implement laws to carry that as a safety --
13 that wouldn't restrict us. We could do it --
14 basically if it's $1600 a bus, for 21 million
15 dollars, if it was just lap belts, we could do
16 that.
17 My guess is it's probably going to be more
18 than that, and not use 30-year old technology.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, is there
20 padding on the back of that seat?
21 TREASURER NELSON: Yeah.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Thank you. I was
23 curious, too.
24 MS. KRISHNAIYER: May I -- may I also say
25 that they talked a little bit about technology
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 112
February 23, 1999
1 and the new technology. The legislation can be
2 flexible enough to accommodate whatever new
3 technology that the study recommends in 2000.
4 We're not restricting it to just --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: And you're not saying --
6 MS. KRISHNAIYER: -- 30-year old
7 technology.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that there's a --
9 MS. KRISHNAIYER: No. We're not saying
10 that. We're --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, you're also not
12 saying that there is -- your concern is for
13 accidents that don't relate to the direct
14 impact coming -- going forward. It more
15 relates to flying sideways or --
16 MS. KRISHNAIYER: Sideways, and there's
17 plenty of those accidents.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: And that was my second
19 question.
20 MS. KRISHNAIYER: Yeah.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's -- what's your
22 response to that?
23 MR. KLEIN: Again, there's two sides to the
24 issue. My concern is a bus that ends in an
25 inverted position, with a lap belt, especially
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 113
February 23, 1999
1 a small elementary school student that opens
2 the lap belt, falls 8 feet to the ground before
3 somebody can get to them, it's a significant
4 issue.
5 When a bus rolls -- and we had a rollover
6 accident not too many years ago, where five
7 people walked away from it without injury.
8 It's a fully padded environment where they roll
9 with the bus. And that has not been
10 demonstrated that that's where the fatalities
11 come from.
12 So I don't think that that -- that would be
13 a significant issue.
14 Thank you so much.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
16 MS. BLOMBERG: Thank you for your time this
17 morning. The Department of Education would
18 just encourage you from taking any action until
19 after the Federal report.
20 Thank you.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Anybody have any other
22 comments?
23 TREASURER NELSON: May -- may I ask a
24 couple of questions?
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 114
February 23, 1999
1 TREASURER NELSON: I'd like to have whoever
2 can answer these questions that obviously --
3 and I thank Commissioner Gallagher for bringing
4 this as an item of discussion. And I -- I
5 commend him for raising an issue like this,
6 which is a policy issue, in front of the
7 State Board of Education.
8 I am curious: How many students stand on
9 buses?
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Hopefully, none.
11 MR. KLEIN: In Miami-Dade County, none. I
12 can tell you the State Board rules require that
13 in an emergency situation, they can be in the
14 aisle, as long as it's remedied in an immediate
15 way.
16 (Secretary Harris exited the room.)
17 MR. KLEIN: It can't continue past a day or
18 so. So if you have an overload or a stranded
19 student, there is a provision to get that child
20 to school. But it is not something that can be
21 continued.
22 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Then I guess the
23 next question would be: What is the impact on
24 the possibility of standing of children if we
25 don't have enough buses -- that seat that I
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 115
February 23, 1999
1 just looked at, I take that that's a standard
2 seat, and you have one on one side, and you
3 have an aisle in the middle, and one on the
4 other side.
5 MR. KLEIN: That's correct.
6 TREASURER NELSON: It looks like the old
7 seats that I used to ride in the school bus
8 years ago, but it's got a lot more padding on
9 it. But it's about the same size.
10 All right. How many children sit in one of
11 those seats?
12 MR. KLEIN: It depends on the age and grade
13 of the student. Basically, it's -- at the
14 small children, at the elementary level, it'd
15 be three; and there would be two at a
16 high school level; and a mix in between, based
17 on the size, for middle school.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Is the proposal for lap
19 belts to have three children sitting abreast,
20 or only two children sitting abreast?
21 MR. KLEIN: I -- I can't answer that. I'm
22 not sure --
23 TREASURER NELSON: Let's let --
24 MR. KLEIN: -- what the intent is --
25 TREASURER NELSON: -- the lady --
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 116
February 23, 1999
1 MS. KRISHNAIYER: It -- the proposal does
2 not specify -- the legislation does not specify
3 how many children.
4 But let me address that issue of standing.
5 I don't know if Mr. Klein was addressing are
6 they required to stand because there are no
7 seats available, or what.
8 But children stand on buses every single
9 day. The accident I referred to that happened
10 10 days ago in Broward County in the City of
11 Tamarac Middle School, kids were standing as
12 the bus was approaching the stop, because there
13 were two kids fighting outside the bus.
14 The driver hit the brakes because she had
15 looked over her shoulder -- that's the
16 distraction issue -- because the kids were
17 fighting -- or standing up to look at the fight
18 on the street, and did not see the car that
19 came in front of her, hit the brakes, and --
20 and the kids all fell forward. And the one
21 child went into the windshield, cracked the
22 windshield, and fell back into the bus.
23 So they stand every single day. I'm a
24 former teacher, and I have chaperoned as a
25 parent and as a teacher, and it's -- they do
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 117
February 23, 1999
1 stand all the time.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Well, let me --
3 (Secretary Harris entered the room.)
4 TREASURER NELSON: -- ask you this: If you
5 required the lap belts, and if you can only put
6 the lap belts for two, instead of three
7 abreast, are we talking about a significant
8 investment in additional buses in order to
9 accommodate what otherwise children are now
10 sitting three abreast?
11 MS. KRISHNAIYER: Probably. But the
12 parents would love you for it. That's another
13 complaint we hear all the time about the --
14 that by putting three kids, especially middle
15 school and high school kids in a bus with three
16 seats and it becomes very inconvenient. They
17 would love it.
18 I don't know. I -- I can make our --
19 MR. CULLEN: Very briefly --
20 MS. KRISHNAIYER: This is David Cullen,
21 who's -- knows this issue.
22 MR. CULLEN: The way this is done in the
23 Districts that mandate seat belt use, or
24 mandate belts in their buses, is that they put
25 three sets of belts on each 39-inch bench seat.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 118
February 23, 1999
1 When you have small kids, they use all
2 three sets of belts. When you have larger
3 kids, they use the two outboard positions, the
4 position by the window and the aisle position,
5 just as you would in the back seat of your car.
6 MS. KRISHNAIYER: Thanks.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Somebody from the
8 Department of Education, if you might tell me,
9 how long would it take --
10 Let me get the gentleman's attention from
11 the Department of Education.
12 How long would it take before all school
13 buses would be equipped with these lap belts?
14 What kind of transition time are we talking
15 about?
16 MS. BLOMBERG: The legislation currently
17 just requires the seat belts on new buses. But
18 in terms of getting them on the new buses,
19 it's -- it takes about a year from the time you
20 would have that new specification until the bus
21 was delivered.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We have a bus
23 purchase that goes -- takes place each year.
24 All the Districts tell us how many buses they
25 want. We do a -- a large bid for all the
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 119
February 23, 1999
1 Districts, buy the buses, depending on what
2 size they want. So it would have to be in the
3 specifications for the new buses that would be
4 bought in the next year, after the legislation
5 was passed.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Has anybody ever considered
7 advertising on buses to be able to generate
8 resources for this?
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: As a matter of
10 fact, we're going to hear a lot of things that
11 make money for Districts, advertising is one.
12 We're going to hear about selling Pepsi and
13 Coke in one of the next future meetings, which
14 is another big issue that I think we ought to
15 take up.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's the PTA's position
17 on that, out of curiosity?
18 MS. KRISHNAIYER: That's a tough one. It
19 is a question of money. I would imagine if
20 there was plenty of money, the belts wouldn't
21 become an issue. Definitely. And -- and we're
22 saying we've put kids first. And for us,
23 it's -- for most parents, it's a matter of
24 money.
25 On advertising, that's a very tough
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 120
February 23, 1999
1 question.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Y'all don't have a position
3 on that.
4 MS. KRISHNAIYER: We have a -- we don't
5 like to expose children to excessive
6 advertising. It would depend on -- that's why
7 I said, it's really, really tough, the
8 commercialism offered. So you're pretty --
9 you're making it difficult.
10 No, we don't have a specific -- we have a
11 position on advertising in schools, that we
12 don't particularly want them in there.
13 But on the buses -- but -- but we can talk.
14 TREASURER NELSON: I want to ask Tom, are
15 we going to sell Cokes and Pepsis on the bus?
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What we're going
17 to do is we're going to give you an opportunity
18 to look at the State Board rule on selling
19 Cokes and Pepsis and other nutritious food in
20 that area --
21 TREASURER NELSON: Gatorade?
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- or
23 non-nutritious as one wants to look at it --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments?
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- in the future.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 121
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I shouldn't have asked that
2 question.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We're going to do
4 that in the future.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much for
6 coming.
7 That was --
8 MR. PIERSON: That concludes --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- very informative.
10 MR. PIERSON: -- our agenda.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are there any other
12 items --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, we do
14 have another item, which I informed all of your
15 offices on.
16 And it has to do with the Office of Student
17 and Financial Assistance. I know that time is
18 running a little short. It is an issue that
19 I think is important because we have a bid that
20 was received, and we were due to have the
21 results of that published back in February.
22 We set an additional time to March 15th on
23 the looking of the bids. Some of the problems
24 that exist in regards to -- to the particular
25 bid is that we're going to -- we're finding a
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 122
February 23, 1999
1 tremendously large increase in costs, compared
2 to what we now pay for this outside service,
3 which -- with the company EDS.
4 There were two bid proposals received, one
5 that had total costs per year of about
6 7.6 million, the other one for a total cost of
7 about 10 million.
8 And we have the opportunity here of
9 whatever money is not spent on the outside
10 vendors, or even the cost for us to do it
11 ourselves, goes out, can be used for student
12 loans.
13 So we have the opportunity, if we would
14 take this in-house, as opposed to bidding it
15 out, to save 3 million dollars, and that would
16 be used for student loans per year.
17 So what I've -- I just wanted the issue to
18 come up as some of the people that have been on
19 this Cabinet in my prior life recognize this
20 contract, it's been around for awhile, it's
21 had -- the existing contract is out to bid, has
22 been somewhat controversial, as I'm sure
23 General Milligan and Attorney General
24 Butterworth would be glad to -- to reiterate.
25 I'd just like to have -- and I will be glad
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 123
February 23, 1999
1 to have a workshop for the Aides, if they'd
2 like it, to get a full look at this. I just
3 got the information from our staff yesterday.
4 But it is a multimillion dollar decision,
5 and it is one that would require us, if we were
6 to bring it in-house, which has been
7 recommended by our staff: One, it would save
8 at least 3 million dollars a year; two, it
9 would -- and make that available for student
10 loans.
11 But it would -- it would mean eliminating
12 this contract that has been somewhat
13 controversial over the past many years.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, by
15 being involved a little bit with this issue
16 over the years, I'm not sure a workshop's even
17 necessary.
18 If the Commissioner for Education says it's
19 going to save 3 million dollars, and that money
20 can be used for scholarships, to me, it's a no
21 brainer. I'd say go ahead and do it.
22 I mean --
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- I would
24 just add, Governor, that certainly the
25 Attorney General and I are both familiar with
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 124
February 23, 1999
1 the contract situations with this particular
2 operation, and I don't think this is a policy
3 issue that needs to come before us. I think
4 that's just good decision making on your part.
5 If you choose to take it in-house, that's your
6 call.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I would like
8 to do it with your support, because I -- I
9 really think that's probably where we ought to
10 be at this time. So I did want to bring the
11 issue to you. I got it to you as soon as we
12 got it. And --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: So you'd prefer to -- to do
14 the workshop, then come back to us?
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No. I'd prefer if
16 all like it now, let's move on.
17 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor --
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You've got two
19 people that like it, and I like it, and maybe
20 we can get one more.
21 SECRETARY HARRIS: I'm sure it sounds
22 wonderful and I'm new at this, so I don't know
23 all the history. And if we could put 3 million
24 more into student loans, I want to.
25 I guess my concerns -- we sit in the
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 125
February 23, 1999
1 Technology Board together, and when you start
2 looking at Y2K, and where the computers are in
3 terms of the compliancy, if it's going to be an
4 overload when you add these things. And I've
5 looked at your -- at the projections.
6 There's several technical aspects. Having
7 just gone through this central voter file
8 issue, legislatively we were mandated to take
9 this out to a private company, and we thought
10 that we could do it much less expensively
11 in-house.
12 And now that we've looked at it, when you
13 start looking at -- I mean, I've seen the
14 salaries for 47 people, when you have college
15 students graduating and starting at 80,000 in
16 technical positions, when you're looking at
17 government positions, and wanting to hire
18 quality people, 47 of them, you know, I don't
19 know if you could -- if you could get them at
20 that.
21 And I think those are some of the things
22 you have to start looking at because the Y2K
23 issues aren't going to go away December 31st,
24 1999. We should have a three-year backlog. So
25 you may have problems getting to that -- that
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 126
February 23, 1999
1 standpoint.
2 And then the last thing I would say -- that
3 I was concerned about, I didn't see any issue
4 concerning software. And I wouldn't think EDS
5 would let you -- would turn over their software
6 because it takes a long time to build -- tap --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We --
8 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- the software file.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We own the
10 software.
11 SECRETARY HARRIS: Oh, okay.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And we just -- we
13 just -- before I was Commissioner of Education,
14 during this past summer, the Cabinet as
15 State Board approved a million plus, maybe a
16 million-and-a-half dollar expenditure to pay --
17 which I had a hard time -- I'm sure you guys
18 did on the Cabinet at the time -- paid to make
19 the system that was given to us by EDS 2000
20 compliant. And that's in the process.
21 And so we basically are an owner of this --
22 this software to -- and although it probably
23 needs updating, and it will have to be done
24 in -- over the next year, either way, we'd have
25 to pay for that.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 127
February 23, 1999
1 And the 2000 compliant -- and we're looking
2 at using the Northwest Data Center to handle
3 the processing, and they are on their schedule
4 with their 2000 compliancy.
5 SECRETARY HARRIS: My biggest concern was
6 the software. If we -- if we own it, and if --
7 I've just found that a lot of times, all of the
8 computer technical people say we can do this
9 with more money, and all these kinds of things.
10 And if you've done that analysis, the biggest
11 concern was the -- the software. So --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, we -- we
13 recognize that one -- whether -- whether we
14 kept it, or somebody outside got it, it needs
15 to be redone. And we can use what's there now
16 as ours because we've basically paid for it.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, what's the total
18 savings -- what's the total cost of this?
19 Three million dollars is the savings.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Three million --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: What percentage --
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- outside -- the
23 outside vendors, as I just told you, were
24 two -- the bids came in at seven million six
25 and ten million one.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 128
February 23, 1999
1 We --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: So you're saying you can do
3 it for -- for eighty-seven -- 40 percent less
4 than the lowest bidder.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's correct.
6 We --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Not bad for government
8 work. Why --
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, it's just --
10 the way --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we -- for anything.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, sometimes --
13 sometimes outside people do it -- do it for
14 less. And --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess I don't know the
16 whole history. That's maybe --
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If I might,
18 Governor, you know, the history isn't so much
19 important right now. As I still -- I don't
20 know enough about the trade-offs, and I don't
21 have enough information to really say
22 personally which is the best way to go.
23 I hear what the Commissioner's saying, and
24 he's done his analysis. I haven't really seen
25 the analysis and haven't had a chance to look
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 129
February 23, 1999
1 at it.
2 So I'm not really in a position to say, in
3 my opinion, which is the best way to do it.
4 However, in my opinion, as the Commissioner
5 of Education, he has full authority, and we
6 even reenforced it last session, to make those
7 types of decisions.
8 This is not a policy question, it's a good
9 judgment and common sense decision, and I would
10 hope he'd be able to make that without coming
11 to us with it.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: He doesn't want it, it
13 sounds like.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No, I don't mind
15 doing it at all. Believe me, I don't mind
16 doing it at all.
17 I just want you to know that this -- this
18 is -- this is an issue when you have a
19 contractor that's been -- that's been having a
20 contract for a long time, and it has been in
21 front of the Cabinet many times, this decision
22 will create a lot of lobbying among the
23 State Board members. And I think it's good for
24 you to be knowledgeable that that could come,
25 and what it would be all about.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 130
February 23, 1999
1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That I appreciate.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Would
3 anybody be willing to have a motion, Governor?
4 I don't think it's --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I would make
7 the motion -- as General Milligan has stated,
8 the common sense is to allow the -- the
9 Commissioner of Education to make this decision
10 on his own, and not bring it to the Cabinet
11 unless he intends to.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. Thank you
13 very much.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second it.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: You acceptable with that,
16 Commissioner?
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- for you --
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm fine with
20 that.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Where you want to be.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's fine.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
24 MR. JONES: It's not a noticed item.
25 There's no reason to take a vote on it,
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 131
February 23, 1999
1 General. This item has not been noticed.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That
3 gentleman out there is a former employee of the
4 Attorney General.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that why he knows so
6 much?
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: He did
8 not -- he did not go to a land grant college,
9 so --
10 But I think he probably is correct. I
11 assume some people do have rights here. But --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It was here for
13 discussion. And we've had it, and you all are
14 aware --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- of the issue,
17 and that's really what it was all about.
18 And I thank you for --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And we're
21 behind him.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All motions and
23 seconds are retracted I gather.
24 MR. JONES: General, I'll have my boxes out
25 of the office by 5:00.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 132
February 23, 1999
1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Kent, lock
2 his door, change the lock --
3 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
4 concluded.)
5 *
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TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 133
February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Trustees of the Internal
2 Improvement Trust Fund, please.
3 Item 1.
4 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 1 are two
5 options agreements to acquire 211 acres within
6 the Watermelon Pond CARL project.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded without
10 opposition.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. GREEN: Item 2, authorization to
13 acquire 100 percent interest in 70 acres within
14 the Corkscrew Regional Ecosystem Watershed CARL
15 Project.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. GREEN: Item 3 is an option agreement
21 to acquire 1.43 acres within the Rookery Bay
22 CARL Project.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 134
February 23, 1999
1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. GREEN: Item 4, a consideration of bid
3 acceptance, land sale.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I guess it
8 dies for lack of a second I guess.
9 It dies for lack of a second. There's no
10 second.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The motion is -- is
12 to accept the staff's recommendations, I
13 presume?
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yes.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
17 Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 5, recommend
20 deferral till the next meeting.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a -- it's moved
24 and seconded.
25 Without -- okay. Motion to defer and
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 135
February 23, 1999
1 second.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 6, issuance of a quitclaim
4 deed for a permit to reclaim lands and waiver
5 of fee, and staff is recommending that we do
6 not waive the fee.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move staff
8 recommendation.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion, second.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. GREEN: Item 7, recommend deferral at
13 the request of the title company.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to defer.
17 Second.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. GREEN: Item 8, Chapter 18-20,
20 settlement agreement and rule repeal. And have
21 two speakers.
22 Pat Rose and Susie Caplowe.
23 MR. ROSE: Good morning, Governor, members
24 of the Board. My name is Pat Rose. I'm an
25 aquatic biologist with the Save the Manatee
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1 Club.
2 I've also been asked to speak -- and I'm
3 going to be very brief -- on behalf of the
4 Florida Wildlife Federation, who was a -- a
5 co-applicant with us on the appeal; and also
6 for Florida Audubon Society; and the
7 Sierra Club. And I'll be very brief.
8 It's -- we were quite shocked, in fact, to
9 find that this was one of the rules that was up
10 for repeal under the revisions to Chapter 120.
11 We made our issues known to the Department.
12 After that time, we worked, I think very
13 constructively, with the Department of
14 Environmental Protection as staff to the
15 Trustees, and we've worked out I think what is
16 a good settlement agreement on retaining the
17 cumulative impact provisions within aquatic
18 preserves.
19 And we're also on board, I believe, to
20 continue discussions on how we can also look at
21 some of the common sense issues that deal with
22 concurrence with local governments and those
23 issues.
24 Those rules would be repealed under the
25 settlement. But we would look forward to
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1 finding other ways to work with the local
2 government issues and the Board of Trustees
3 issues to keep them in a good common sense
4 harmony as well.
5 And finally, we would urge you to look at
6 the application of the cumulative impacts on
7 all sovereign submerged lands. We think that
8 also is a very important issue, one which in
9 practice as proprietors I think it's critical
10 for you to do.
11 And one which, as we get more and more
12 activity within our sovereign submerged lands,
13 it will become more important to be able to
14 look at those projects based on not only their
15 individual impact, but also the impact that's
16 gone together with what has come before that.
17 And so we thank you for your consideration
18 on these issues.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
20 MR. GREEN: And we've agreed to work
21 with -- with them to try to resolve these
22 issues through discussions.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is anybody speaking? Did
24 you say there was someone else?
25 MR. GREEN: Apparently she is not --
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1 MR. ROSE: She's gone.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
3 MR. GREEN: She's -- she's gone.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I have a
5 motion on this.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please, Commissioner.
7 TREASURER NELSON: That we would approve
8 the settlement agreement among the parties and
9 direct DEP, as the staff to the Trustees, to
10 work with all interested parties to amend other
11 Trustee rules to accomplish these same
12 environmental protections, similar to the ones
13 found within the rules that we are repealing
14 today.
15 And at -- further that the Trustees direct
16 the staff to evaluate the appropriateness of
17 developing Trustees' rules to apply the
18 policies expressed within the existing
19 cumulative impact rule to all sovereign
20 submerged lands.
21 It's my understanding, Governor, that
22 regarding this second part of the motion, that
23 if the Trustees elect to modify their rules in
24 the future to assess cumulative impacts on all
25 sovereign submerged lands, this action would
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1 only mirror or harmonize the existing
2 protections found within the regulatory portion
3 of the SLERP program.
4 From our standpoint as Trustees as
5 protectors of the lands of the State, I believe
6 that it's our fiduciary duty to look at the
7 cumulative impacts of authorized uses on all
8 sovereign submerged land, which we hold in
9 trust for the citizens of Florida.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll second
11 that.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a -- and that
13 replaces the motion, or is that in addition to?
14 TREASURER NELSON: That's a second part of
15 the motion.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I just want to know
17 what the Department's reaction to that is.
18 MR. GREEN: The second part of the motion
19 will -- we'll have to look at the impacts of
20 that, but we think that we should move forward
21 with that one. But we need to fully explain
22 the impacts to you of that action before we
23 take it.
24 The first one, we have to be very careful
25 in drafting. This is a matter of delegation to
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1 local government where they have a more
2 stringent standard than we have. And we've
3 been told that unless we're very careful with
4 the way we write that, we may get into illegal
5 delegation issues.
6 So as we bring those back, we need to be
7 real careful with the way we word at least the
8 first one so that we don't delegate your
9 authority to local government to act --
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Can we --
11 MR. GREEN: -- on those issues.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Can we bifurcate
13 these two at this point?
14 Shouldn't we bi-- shouldn't we make -- do
15 the first one, and then recognize
16 Commissioner Nelson's for the -- his on the
17 second and do them separate?
18 MR. GREEN: We can, yes.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That way we don't
20 have to let one influence the other.
21 TREASURER NELSON: Which is the one that
22 you said that you would have to come back to us
23 with?
24 MR. GREEN: Well, we'll have to come back
25 to both of you. It -- with them is -- if we
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1 adopt rules.
2 The second one is the cumulative impacts on
3 all sovereign submerged lands. When we do
4 that, we need to bring you back the full impact
5 of that on -- on the regulated industry, which
6 you need to take a look at before you actually
7 commit to do that. But it's something that we
8 should do.
9 The first one is a matter of delegation:
10 The way we delegate to local government or the
11 way we write it so that we don't illegally
12 delegate to local government.
13 And, again, it's just a matter of wording
14 and getting it right as we bring it back to
15 you. There's no concern at staff level about
16 doing it. It's just we need to make you aware
17 that we need to be very careful about the way
18 we do it so we don't delegate to local
19 government some of your responsibilities.
20 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. I'll split those
21 in two.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. There's -- the
23 first motion, is there a --
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: There was a
25 second --
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who made the motion?
2 Commissioner Nelson. Is there a second?
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second. Second
4 it.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
6 It's moved and seconded without objection,
7 and approved.
8 And the second motion has been made.
9 Is there a second?
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Now, let me just
11 understand. The second one was -- I think what
12 Commissioner Nelson may want to do is to ask
13 the Department to come back to us with the
14 ramifications.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's what he --
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: As I understand, that's
18 what you're --
19 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
20 MR. GREEN: That's right.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll second that.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
23 Moved and second--
24 Yes, Katherine. Excuse me.
25 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have --
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I always look over to the
2 left.
3 SECRETARY HARRIS: I know it. I missed --
4 and I missed you a couple times back.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, pardon me.
6 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question in
7 terms of asking -- judging the Department to --
8 to review these. And I don't want to go back
9 what's on the agenda.
10 But just in terms of in Item 6, it
11 concerned the ability for -- when the sellers
12 were using their property, the $15,000 they're
13 going to have to pay.
14 I was informed that it's something called
15 avulsion, and that's the -- when the water
16 takes over over time; whereas if it happened
17 overnight, you wouldn't have to pay to get your
18 property back.
19 I would just like to ask is when -- when
20 they're workshopping this, I'd like to
21 understand why citizens would have to pay to
22 get their property back. That doesn't seem
23 appropriate at all. That really -- that really
24 bothered me a lot.
25 So would you -- could you review that as
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1 well?
2 MR. GREEN: We can. And I can try to
3 explain that to you now if you would like a
4 quick explanation.
5 Avulsive actions are actions that remove or
6 add material to a waterline or waterfront
7 property in a very quick action. Usually
8 happens as a result of a flood or hurricane.
9 Something like that that very quickly changes
10 the character of the shoreline.
11 Artificial erosion and natural erosion are
12 erosions that occur over a long period of time.
13 And natural avulsion is -- is the slow and
14 imperceptible adding of land.
15 So when -- when something happens quickly,
16 the -- the rules and the statutes of Florida
17 allow for the property owner to reestablish
18 those lands without charge, and with -- have to
19 get a permit. But they're not charged for the
20 reestablishment of those lands.
21 In the case of artificial erosion, it's --
22 it's a different matter. You have to try to
23 prove whether the artificial nature of the
24 erosion was because of -- in this case,
25 adjacent sea walls, or other actions of nature
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1 that slowly removed those lands over time.
2 By -- by -- in common law, that -- that
3 loss of land over time changes the ownership of
4 that property. It becomes the ownership of the
5 State, the Trustees for all the people.
6 And we've -- we've set in rules some very
7 strict provisions on how people can reclaim
8 those lands that are artificially eroded or
9 artificially -- or naturally eroded.
10 In those cases, they have -- they've
11 decided that we have to -- they have to pay for
12 those lands.
13 SECRETARY HARRIS: Let's say those -- the
14 erosion could have occurred by DEP actions
15 where, let's say, two sea walls were built, and
16 then the property in between did not have a sea
17 wall, and then consequently they're going to
18 have to pay to get their property back. I
19 just -- I really don't understand that.
20 And I want to keep the agenda moving. And
21 we're on another item. But we can -- I want to
22 follow up with you on that.
23 Thanks.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I apologize for not
25 recognizing you.
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1 SECRETARY HARRIS: That's okay.
2 We --
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Holler.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have a -- the second
5 motion, there's been a second.
6 Any other discussion?
7 Been moved and seconded without objection,
8 and approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 9 is
10 application for modification of a 25-year
11 sovereign submerged land lease.
12 As part of this item, we want to make it
13 clear that when we do the -- the lease
14 modification, that would -- it will include a
15 condition that clarifies that any further
16 actions at this marina need to come back to
17 the Board, or back to staff for approval before
18 they undertake any -- any additional
19 modifications.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Are these
21 additional modifications other than the ones
22 that -- aren't we approving modifications here?
23 MR. GREEN: Yes, you are.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And included in
25 this modification is the removal of the
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1 washers, and move them into restrooms?
2 MR. GREEN: That's correct.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And that's
4 included here.
5 MR. GREEN: Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So you're saying,
7 if they have any others than what we're
8 approving.
9 MR. GREEN: That's correct. If they want
10 to add --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Are you saying
12 this because of the misunderstanding that may
13 have existed last time, and they ended up
14 building a few slips that might -- may or may
15 not have been thought to have been approved?
16 MR. GREEN: Yes, I am.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. So we're
18 establishing now that we're approving this, and
19 nothing else.
20 MR. GREEN: Correct.
21 SECRETARY HARRIS: I'm trying to understand
22 the background on this. It was, like, from
23 98 slips to -- they added another two hundred
24 and fifty-two slips or something like that,
25 forty-two slips.
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1 MR. GREEN: That's correct.
2 SECRETARY HARRIS: But DEP approved it.
3 We -- it just didn't come back to the Trustees.
4 MR. GREEN: They received a permit -- an
5 environmental permit to do the work. And in
6 the old lease it said -- or in the current
7 lease it said, no additions to the -- to the
8 lease area -- or within the lease area without
9 approval of all governmental agencies.
10 SECRETARY HARRIS: So it wasn't --
11 MR. GREEN: When they got their permits
12 from local government and from DEP previously,
13 they said, this makes -- we've got all the
14 permits we need. And we -- we think that that
15 was a reasonable position for them to be in at
16 that time.
17 We're just trying to clarify that in the
18 future, they need to include also approval of
19 the Trustees in -- in any modifications or
20 actions they take to modify the configuration
21 within that marina.
22 SECRETARY HARRIS: But this floating
23 installation wasn't previously authorized by
24 DEP, y'all just discovered it when you were
25 doing a routine inspection. It was my
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1 understanding that you -- you didn't approve of
2 it initially for some time. And I was
3 wondering what changed your mind.
4 MR. GREEN: You're speaking of a nonwater
5 dependent nature of the activity that
6 they're -- they're putting here.
7 The Board has long had a policy that
8 nonwater dependent uses over sovereign
9 submerged lands would be limited.
10 In this case, we had a public marina that
11 is owned by the City of Palmetto. It's
12 operated for them by a private interest though.
13 But because it's a public entity, and there
14 was a need for them to have additional restroom
15 facilities on site to service the number of
16 boats that they had in the marina, we felt like
17 it met the public interest test to allow -- to
18 allow a nonwater dependent use in this area to
19 support the number of -- of boats that were in
20 the marina.
21 SECRETARY HARRIS: I understand that. I
22 just didn't know what the change in position
23 was. I -- I agree with the public interest
24 side of it.
25 Do we have any regulations or rules about
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1 requiring restrooms at marinas, or would that
2 be advised to have that in the future?
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Local governments
4 require it.
5 MR. GREEN: We don't have -- and at least
6 in the Trustees' rules any -- any way -- or any
7 rule that requires a marina to have restrooms.
8 Typically when we approve a marina from the
9 environmental permit perspective, we look at
10 the way they handle all -- all kinds of wastes,
11 both solid waste and human waste.
12 And -- and look at the upland structure --
13 or look at the uplands to determine whether or
14 not they have sufficient -- sufficient upland
15 ability to -- to take care of restrooms and
16 other waste facilities.
17 So in -- to answer the question in -- in
18 the Trustees' items, we typically don't look at
19 those issues. In the environmental permit we
20 do.
21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Can I -- and
22 I think it's appropriate to do it on a case by
23 case basis. If it meets the -- the added --
24 you know, the public interest. In this case,
25 I think it did.
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1 And I -- I commend the staff work on this
2 and the change of going away from the laundry
3 room, but going back to the restroom, which
4 I think does meet a public interest test.
5 Marinas need restrooms, and I think in this
6 case, it's -- it's justified.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other --
8 Yes. General.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thank you.
10 I -- I just have a little question here. I
11 don't quite understand this.
12 Back in 1981, the Board of Trustees allowed
13 there to be how many boats docked there?
14 Ninety-eight or something like that?
15 MR. GREEN: It was something in that range,
16 yes.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And then all
18 of a sudden, there's another 252?
19 MR. GREEN: Well, not all of a sudden, but
20 over time there was another 252.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And that
22 didn't concern you at all, or your agency at
23 all?
24 MR. GREEN: Well, we issued a permit for
25 that -- that activity, an environmental --
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: For all 252?
2 MR. GREEN: Yes.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And your
4 agency did not think it was appropriate to come
5 back to the Board of Trustees?
6 MR. GREEN: I guess we didn't.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You know, I
8 find --
9 MR. GREEN: Because we didn't --
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I would like
11 to --
12 MR. GREEN: -- do that.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- my first
14 response looking at this thing was --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's an agency
16 problem, not a --
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- you know,
18 if, in fact, when I looked at it, it was a -- a
19 City, or at least a contract -- a contractor
20 for the City who decided to expand this marina
21 by almost four-fold. And -- and then obviously
22 when you expand it that much, you do need
23 restrooms. It's probably all right for the
24 restrooms they had for the original 90. But
25 now they need restrooms, because we allowed
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1 them to have 250 more.
2 So I guess my question is: Does the
3 Department plead guilty and fall on its sword?
4 MR. GREEN: Well, the lease area had
5 already been leased to -- to the City.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Uh-hum.
7 MR. GREEN: And in the lease agreement,
8 it -- it talked about future improvements on
9 that property, and the need to get all
10 governmental approvals necessary for those
11 improvements.
12 They got all of their local approvals, they
13 got an environmental permit from the agency.
14 What they did not get was an approval from the
15 Trustees to use those lands that they already
16 had under a lease.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's
18 because DEP chose not to bring it up here; is
19 that correct?
20 MR. GREEN: That -- yes, sir.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. Do --
22 does DEP plead guilty and fall on its sword
23 asking us to approve of this blunder that you
24 did and, therefore, was not the applicant's
25 fault?
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: We -- we may -- I just feel
2 a little loyalty now that I'm -- these folks
3 report to us, and this was on someone --
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: This --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- else's time.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: This was --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: For the
9 record, this is 1993.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: But I still feel it -- I
11 don't know if it's appropriate to -- to ask
12 Mr. Green to accept the blundering of another
13 administration. He is more than -- I'm sure
14 not going to be allowing for 300 -- 200 boat
15 slips to come in the future, and that's
16 probably what we ought to be focused on.
17 They have rectified a problem, they have
18 solved a public -- public problem by allowing
19 for this to occur. I guess the option would be
20 now is to tear up all the slips, or to allow
21 for the pollution of the water.
22 And since I don't believe in upland areas
23 there are appropriate places for this to be
24 taken care of, as I understand it, whatever
25 happened in the past, I'm more than willing to
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1 forgive what happened in the previous
2 administration --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I was there,
4 Governor, that's my problem. I was sitting on
5 the Board of Trustees at the time this
6 happened, and I'm upset that they did not come
7 before the Board of Trustees to tell us what
8 was happening.
9 I understand your position, Governor. But
10 I've been here now for 12 years, I don't like
11 this happening on -- on the watch I was on.
12 And this is -- this is part of the -- this
13 Department that we do share authority over.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And at that
16 time I think we shared complete authority over
17 it. And I -- and I'm very disappointed in the
18 agency. And Mr. Green was there. Maybe a
19 different position, but he's standing at the
20 podium right now. So that's --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: He doesn't want to
22 get beat on.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's where
24 I'm coming from, Governor. I agree with you
25 completely going forward.
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1 But I just want to let them know that I was
2 there, and it is -- it was on my watch -- a
3 part of my watch, and, damn it, I am upset,
4 okay?
5 If I -- if I'm not clear, I am --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're clear.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: He is clearly
8 upset, and as he does agree with the item, and
9 I'd like to move --
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes, I do
11 agree with the item. I'm only --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other -- well, and I --
13 we're not marking you down neutral on the
14 subject either, I can promise you that.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thank you,
16 Governor.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion?
18 There's been a motion and a second.
19 And it is approved without -- well, I'm not
20 sure I can say without objection. But I'll say
21 it, and then we'll move on.
22 MR. GREEN: Message received.
23 Substitute Item 10, recommend deferral till
24 April 13th.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer to
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1 April 13th.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to defer, and second.
5 Without objection, it's approved.
6 MR. GREEN: Item 11, recommend deferral.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer,
8 Item 11.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Been moved to defer and
11 seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MR. GREEN: Governor, there is an item that
14 I believe the Secretary of State wishes to
15 bring up for discussion, and that's
16 Miami Circle.
17 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes.
18 Thank you, Governor.
19 As Division of Historical Resources --
20 Historical Resources, I felt compelled to bring
21 this issue before you. We've received hundreds
22 of e-mails and phone calls and -- and letters
23 concerning the Miami Circle, and wanted you to
24 be apprised.
25 Mayor Alex Penelas on behalf of the
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1 citizens in -- in Miami-Dade has requested our
2 assistance regarding this historically --
3 potentially historically significant site.
4 Mayor Penelas and Mayor Carollo have
5 compelling, yet opposing positions on this
6 issue. And so I wanted to use this public
7 forum to hear both sides, and inform us. And
8 then at someplace in the future, I hope that
9 they can reach consensus. But in the absence
10 of that, the Cabinet can determine if any --
11 what action we would take in the future.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: And this is on -- on the
13 it-- you're proposing that this be on -- an
14 item on the next Cabinet agenda to --
15 SECRETARY HARRIS: I wanted it to be
16 discussed today, and it would be to the
17 Cabinet's interest to devote -- there's --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
19 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- a 2 million dollar
20 emergency archeological acquisition fund that
21 will actually go back in the GR at the end of
22 March. And if we chose to -- to allocate those
23 funds, or put them in escrow, we -- we could do
24 so.
25 MR. GREEN: Governor, we have approximately
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1 ten speakers, 3 minutes a piece if that's
2 appropriate.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: On this issue now?
4 MR. GREEN: Yes.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I --
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Why --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- thought we were
8 going to bring it up next time.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. Why don't we
10 have the speakers when we have the item --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I think --
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- before us.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to be fair about it,
14 I believe that they've come up to be able to --
15 to talk. And if -- if -- and there's
16 Commissioner Sorenson from Dade County to prove
17 that.
18 If we can not repeat ourselves, perhaps so
19 that we can get through this with -- with
20 enough time.
21 But I believe it's appropriate to -- the
22 people came all the way up to Tallahassee from
23 Miami is a long way away, I can promise you
24 that. And it's appropriate to allow them to
25 speak.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do they promise
2 not to come a second time, Governor?
3 MR. GREEN: Our first speaker is
4 County Commissioner Katy Sorenson.
5 MS. SORENSON: Thank you very much, and
6 good afternoon, Governor Bush, and
7 distinguished members of the Cabinet.
8 I'm Katy Sorenson, County Commissioner for
9 Miami-Dade County.
10 And I'm here to bring to your attention a
11 very important matter. I bring greetings from
12 our Mayor, Alex Penelas, who could not be here
13 today, but who very much wanted to be, and will
14 be at the next Cabinet meeting; and from our
15 Board of County Commissioners.
16 We're here to present an issue of great
17 historical importance, and to ask for your
18 help.
19 We -- I also have with me our County
20 archaeologist, Bob Carr; and our Assistant
21 County Attorney, Tom Logue.
22 As you know, Miami-Dade County has been
23 racing against the clock to save the historic
24 Miami Circle, and preserve it as a treasure
25 from a previous generation, to be passed on to
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1 the next.
2 Therefore, on behalf of the citizens of
3 Miami-Dade County, we are seeking the State's
4 help, by requesting a grant in the amount of
5 2 million dollars from the Conservation and
6 Recreation Lands Trust Fund. This request is
7 for an emergency archeological acquisition
8 pursuant to Section 253.027 of the
9 Florida Statutes.
10 It's important -- this money is
11 important --
12 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
13 room.)
14 MS. SORENSON: -- to jump-start our fund
15 raising efforts, with a State commitment, to
16 help us acquire property located at
17 401 Brickell Avenue in Miami.
18 On this property lies the Circle, the now
19 famous Miami Circle, a significant prehistoric
20 site located at the mouth of the Miami River,
21 in an area that was once a thriving Tequesta
22 Indian village.
23 Archeologists believe that the Circle
24 served as the centerpiece of a ceremonial
25 structure for the now extinct tribe. Using the
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1 criteria outlined by the National Register of
2 Historic Places, the Circle is of local,
3 regional, and statewide significance,
4 especially since it is currently the only known
5 surviving example of a Tequesta ceremonial
6 structure.
7 The discovery of the now fondly named
8 Miami Circle has captured the imaginations of
9 Miami-Dade citizens; people around the state;
10 the country; and, indeed, the world.
11 It is a compelling remnant and an
12 educational resource from which we can learn
13 the history of Florida and Miami-Dade County.
14 Today the County stands ready to preserve
15 the legacy left behind by the original south
16 Floridians, a low impact, no tech people. And
17 the current people of Miami-Dade County are
18 squarely behind this Circle.
19 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
20 room.)
21 MS. SORENSON: Our process has been
22 thorough. Three weeks ago, at my request, the
23 County manager established a task force to
24 examine our options, and we looked at purchase
25 of the site, we looked at redesign by the
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1 developer of the site, we looked at moving the
2 site.
3 Last week, Mayor Alex Penelas, County
4 Manager Stierheim, and I appeared before the
5 Miami City Commission in good faith to propose
6 an intergovernmental partnership to preserve
7 the site.
8 However, at that meeting, it was clear that
9 the City of Miami, based on their own
10 precarious financial circumstances, did not
11 have the will or the wherewithal.
12 While we acknowledge Commissioners Teele
13 and Regalado for their support, there was
14 hesitancy and extreme caution on the part of
15 the City. In fact, the City suggested that
16 prior to possibly joining Miami-Dade County in
17 its quest, we'd have to agree to a clause
18 promising to hold the City harmless by the
19 developer.
20 Certainly we understand that the City of
21 Miami has been in dire financial straits, and
22 has viewed this site not as a cultural gem, but
23 as a revenue producer in the form of an
24 apartment building. And parenthetically, the
25 County is examining ways to compensate the City
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1 for the 1.1 million dollars lost property tax
2 revenues, perhaps for payments in lieu of
3 taxes, as was done in the American Airlines
4 Arena negotiations with the City.
5 But there's a bigger picture here.
6 Miami-Dade County, as the regional government
7 for 2.2 million people, have to take the long
8 view. And we had to take the bold step to stop
9 the development of this site, which many
10 consider to be sacred, and which we consider
11 too important to destroy.
12 So after thorough counseling from our
13 County Attorney and consultation with the
14 County Manager, last Thursday the Board of
15 County Commissioners voted 10 to 1 to allow our
16 attorneys to file an injunction and proceed
17 with eminent domain action against the
18 developers of Brickell Point, a decision we
19 made after six hours of discussion, and which
20 we did not take lightly.
21 I want to stress that every consideration
22 had been given to the present owners of the
23 property, Brickell Point, Limited. We have
24 asked them to sell us the property, but they
25 were unwilling, and they wish to proceed with
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1 development.
2 Please be aware that the developer does not
3 object to the eminent domain proceedings,
4 although they would prefer a more expeditious
5 taking. However, since appraisals were needed,
6 our attorneys advised a slow take, which
7 minimizes the financial exposure to
8 Miami-Dade County.
9 While appraisals are being made and a jury
10 determines the cost of the property, we would
11 gain time to raise money to buy the land. Our
12 attorney is here to discuss those details if
13 you wish.
14 Last week we were joined in our quest by
15 Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who was
16 kind enough to come to our Commission meeting,
17 and who offered to work with us in saving the
18 land. She informed us that certain State
19 dollars are available on an emergency basis, as
20 is money from the CARL program, which protects
21 environmentally endangered lands. And we
22 intend to pursue that as well as an insertion
23 as an interim project on the CARL list.
24 We've also identified many other funding
25 possibilities for purchasing the site. Our
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1 former County Commissioner, Ruth Shack, who's
2 President of the Dade Community Foundation, has
3 come to our assistance. The Foundation has
4 opened an account where donations can be made
5 on behalf of buying the site, and she is
6 pursuing national Foundation money.
7 The Dade Heritage Trust has also opened an
8 account for donations.
9 There is no doubt that community support is
10 behind taking action on behalf of the Circle.
11 School children, Native Americans, business
12 people, environmentalists, ordinary citizens
13 have responded almost viscerally to this cause.
14 In fact, last night at a town hall meeting I
15 held on the speed limit of Killian Drive, which
16 is one of the delights of being a local elected
17 official, the second speaker thanked me for my
18 work on the Circle and the whole group of
19 100 people erupted in spontaneous applause.
20 It's amazing how this has captivated the entire
21 community.
22 The phones at County Hall have been ringing
23 off the hook, people calling from around the
24 country and the world.
25 This is the magic and the power of the
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1 Circle. It has united people for the good of a
2 common goal, preserving an important piece of
3 our past. And to maintain the integrity that
4 the Tequesta once instilled in the Circle, we
5 have to preserve it as is. Because not only
6 would removing the Circle disturb its meaning,
7 it would destroy any further interpretation of
8 the artifacts and the land surrounding it. The
9 land is at risk, and we need your help.
10 Governor, Cabinet members, thank you for
11 your consideration, we need your support.
12 Thank you.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Commissioner.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is this the same
15 land that the Department --
16 MR. GREEN: The next speaker is Bob Carr.
17 MR. CARR: Governor, Cabinet, very pleased
18 to be here.
19 Things have been very exciting and -- and
20 very fast moving in Miami, as you know, with
21 this discovery. I am the Director of the
22 Miami-Dade Historic Preservation Division. I'm
23 also trained as an archeologist, and have
24 previously worked for the State of Florida and
25 for the National Park Service, and have been
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1 working with Miami-Dade County for the last
2 21 years.
3 In my experience, which includes having
4 looked at no less than six to seven hundred
5 archeological sites across the site (sic), and
6 participating that -- in the documentation of
7 over 1500 sites in the state of Florida, what
8 has been found during routine monitoring of
9 construction at Brickell Point is certainly a
10 unique and significant discovery.
11 The Circle is characterized by holes cut
12 into the bedrock forming a perfect circle, as
13 you can see, 38 feet in diameter. What makes
14 the cuts of particular interest, there's some
15 of them appear to be aligned with astronomical
16 alignments, including the equinox.
17 The eastern alignment, for example, has a
18 very definite eye-like motive cut into the
19 rock.
20 In addition, within the Circle, we
21 uncovered evidence of two different offerings.
22 One was a shark, a 5-foot shark that was
23 interred on the east-west alignment; and then
24 nearby, a sea turtle.
25 Also we found exotic stone axes that would
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1 have come from the Appalachian Mountains or
2 possibly from the Caribbean. We don't know
3 exactly where yet, because we haven't done the
4 analysis.
5 And finally, we found teeth of the extinct
6 monk seal, which according to Spanish
7 ethnography, was associated with only the elite
8 class of the Tequesta.
9 So, in other words, there is ample evidence
10 to indicate that this is certainly a ceremonial
11 site.
12 We have had people like Bill St--
13 William Sturtevant, Dr. William Sturtevant,
14 from the Smithsonian Institution look at it.
15 He has declared that the site is unique and has
16 seen nothing like it in North America.
17 I can tell you that the reason we are here
18 and have made this trip, and the reason this
19 level of effort and publicity has been
20 generated is because, frankly, nothing like
21 this has ever been seen. This site somehow
22 sleeping beneath these -- these apartment
23 buildings built in the 1940s miraculously has
24 survived 85 percent intact.
25 I want to say as a matter of note, the
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1 developer, Mr. Baumann, has been extremely
2 cooperative in trying to move the process of
3 the archeology forward.
4 However, the fact is that with 30 to
5 35 sites having been documented in the City of
6 Miami by our agency since 1981, we have always
7 been able to deal with the issues of
8 preservation, of rearranging buildings and
9 design, of removing artifacts, and creating the
10 ample mitigation that has always been the case
11 of rule.
12 This is the first time, since 1981, that we
13 have found something so significant, something
14 so difficult to remove because it's basically
15 8 tons of rock, that we have to look at the
16 option of preservation, because preservation is
17 really the best case scenario and the best
18 public need in this particular instance.
19 Thank you.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: What is the 8 tons of rock
21 that you're referring to on -- we looking --
22 all looking at this picture.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's this. Cut
24 this whole thing out, I guess.
25 MR. CARR: Right. The -- the Circle is
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1 actually in the rock, the limestone bedrock,
2 Miami oolite. So to actually --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: This was embedded in the
4 rock, or was it just --
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It was cut in --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a hole -- a circle cut
7 into the lime--
8 MR. CARR: The whole circle cut into the
9 rock.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: So the -- the option when
11 we read about it in the Miami Herald of moving
12 it would be to cut into the rock and just
13 excavate this whole thing?
14 MR. CARR: Right. The -- one of the
15 options that had been looked at was cutting the
16 rock and moving it in sections to another
17 location.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Help us out here.
19 MR. CARR: Sure.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: These pictures -- these --
21 are these foundation from the apartment
22 building, or the --
23 MR. CARR: There is a rectalinear septic
24 tank occupying one section of it. That's from
25 the apartment. And there's one straight line
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1 that you see, kind of like a scar. And that is
2 from a footer from the apartment.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
4 MR. CARR: So even though the building was
5 on top of it, for the most part, it -- it
6 survived.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Phenomenal.
8 TREASURER NELSON: Is the 15 percent that
9 destroyed, is that down here by the septic
10 tank?
11 MR. CARR: Well, the sep-- no, the septic
12 tank itself took out a portion of the rock.
13 And towards your right where your -- your
14 thumb, that part of the circle has kind of a
15 flat, rectalinear -- like a trench, and that's
16 one of the footers. So those are the two parts
17 of the circle that have been impacted.
18 But keep in mind, the site is not just the
19 Circle. It's 2 acres, and there is a very high
20 probability of other significant features,
21 including the possibility that the Circle is
22 actually part of a larger circle with an outer
23 concentric circle on the outside.
24 TREASURER NELSON: I see.
25 What is this right here, is that a section
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1 of the old floor?
2 MR. CARR: That is one of the footers,
3 which is above the rock, so it's resting on the
4 soil. And we use that for our measuring scale.
5 We put our ruler on top of that.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is anybody here from the
7 City of Miami?
8 MR. GREEN: No, sir.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: No?
10 SECRETARY HARRIS: I spoke with
11 Mayor Carollo yesterday, and hopefully they
12 were going to have some people representing
13 that at the other side as well. That was my --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well --
15 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- interest.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Doctor, what is the --
17 the City of Miami does have financial problems,
18 and they are dealing with those, with our
19 support, of course.
20 And one of the ways that they will
21 eventually get out of their mess, apart from
22 the just good financial practices, is to have a
23 growing tax base.
24 And in your estimation, if -- how far do
25 you think this extends? Does it extend across
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1 the river? Is it -- will it impact the --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Tear down the
3 Sheraton.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- you know, the --
5 MR. CARR: We -- we don't --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- very in general? Has
7 there been thought about that, and how --
8 MR. CARR: There certainly has been thought
9 about that. And we don't see this as the
10 beginning of a large archeological petting zoo
11 across the downtown Miami.
12 Yes, there are other sites in downtown
13 Miami. And we have found other sites, no less
14 than, as I say, we've had 30 different
15 projects, and we've been able to mitigate those
16 things without affecting either the
17 construction schedule or the tax base.
18 My suspicion is that those other
19 significant sites and features will be found
20 over the years. The question of eminent domain
21 or acquisition probably will not come up again.
22 And I'll tell you the reason why.
23 Unfortunately the developer was between the
24 proverbial rock and the hard place here,
25 because we had 2 acres, no way to move --
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: You guys got all your lines
2 down.
3 MR. CARR: Right. We've got them all down.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The Circle rock
5 and the hard place.
6 MR. CARR: And, for example, there's been a
7 lot of concern about the Dupont Plaza across
8 the river, which is a much, much larger tract.
9 Now, with the possibility that something
10 significant could be found there, I can tell
11 you with great certainty that it would not
12 occupy the entire land. And if there was a
13 reason to deal with that, there would be much
14 more flexibility --
15 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor --
16 MR. CARR: -- to move things.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
18 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- also, and I can't
19 speak for the City or County -- in my
20 attendance at the County Commission meeting, it
21 was based on have -- you know, encouraging
22 their consensus so that we could come in and
23 help with that decision.
24 But one of the issues has been the concern
25 not only from the economic base that will be
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1 derived in revenues from the -- the buildings
2 that would be built on this site, but
3 significant other buildings at Dupont Circle.
4 And the Royal Poinciana Hotel was built where
5 the Dupont Circle is in the late 1800s when
6 there were no archeological setbacks or
7 anything else.
8 And so it's been told to me, as I've been
9 down there, there will probably be nothing left
10 on that site anyway that would be -- could be
11 architecturally significant since --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well --
13 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- archeologically
14 significant since the --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: There was the apartment
16 complex on top of this one. I would think
17 that -- I mean, this is a phenomenally good
18 fortune that it wasn't destroyed. I mean --
19 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask: What is the
20 significance of the 24 basin holes?
21 MR. CARR: Well, that's a good question.
22 And we don't know the answer to that yet. We
23 don't know if really it is part of the
24 astronomical or calendrical relationship. We
25 have no idea. And it's going to take study and
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1 analysis and conducting radiocarbon dates to
2 help really figure out what this is and where
3 it is in time.
4 We know the overall site is 2,000 years
5 old. And based on pottery types, the Circle
6 seems to be about six to eight hundred years
7 old.
8 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor, let me say
9 one other thing. Mr. Carr has done an
10 extraordinary job, and we have offered -- both
11 the City and the County, we have additional
12 archeologists, State archeologists, phenomenal
13 archeologists at the University of Florida.
14 So if you need -- if -- you need only ask,
15 we can send additional other support to help
16 expedite and ensure the integrity --
17 MR. CARR: We appreciate.
18 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- of the site, or the
19 value.
20 MR. CARR: Thank you very much.
21 MR. GREEN: The next speaker is
22 Bobby Billie.
23 Susan Anderson.
24 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you very much.
25 I wish that Bobby Billie could be here, but
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1 he is attending to other business. He is a
2 traditional spiritual leader of the independent
3 Seminoles. And he had -- he has spoken very
4 eloquently before the City and the Coun--
5 before the County last week on this issue.
6 Spoken many times.
7 My name is Susan Anderson. I -- this is --
8 this is my family and community here has come
9 with me.
10 I'm of Creek and Cherokee descent. We have
11 been with Bobby Billie for the last
12 week-and-a-half in Miami at the Circle holding
13 vigil and prayers and drumming. Our drumming
14 and our dancing are traditional ways of praying
15 and bringing balance and order to our people
16 and to this site.
17 For -- I am humbled to be able to stand
18 before you today and try to let you glimpse
19 through our eyes as traditional people what
20 this site means to us, let you get some feeling
21 of how we feel when we go to this site knowing
22 the history of our people and this land.
23 At one time, 100 percent of the population
24 was indigenous people. Today we -- we were not
25 willing sellers of any parcel. And the deals
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1 that were made were certainly not as fair as
2 those being offered Mr. Baumann today at this
3 instance.
4 We do not believe that the City of Miami
5 got into their financial crisis by preserving
6 sacred sites for indigenous people.
7 But we do believe that the County has
8 stepped forward and taken a heroic and moral
9 and ethical position that supports, for the
10 first time, in a way that we can tangibly feel
11 the concerns of indigenous people.
12 Our concerns are not part of your law, not
13 part of your process. They are coincidental to
14 your process.
15 What we ask the State of Florida, and you
16 as members of this most powerful group of
17 people to do, is to take this opportunity, for
18 maybe the first time, to give the due respect
19 to the spiritual beliefs of indigenous people
20 by stepping forward with your resources, not to
21 remove us, not to allocate money for the final
22 extermination of the Indians in Florida, but to
23 preserve for us what may be one of the most
24 significant spiritual sites that we have left.
25 There are other sites that are only on the
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1 ground that you cannot relate to in this way.
2 But by some miracle, this site brings together
3 our belief structure, and your ability to
4 recognize something made in stone so that we
5 have an opportunity to work together.
6 As -- as Commissioner Sorenson said, people
7 from all over the world have been coming to
8 this site in the last week. There have been
9 tour buses -- if Miami's concerned about their
10 financial well-being, I believe -- and I --
11 anyone can see that the worldwide interest that
12 has been created in this site must be of some
13 economic value to the City of Miami.
14 And they -- there could be nothing but
15 short sightedness not to recognize that
16 preserving something of this caliber and this
17 uniqueness could have benefit for all.
18 Miami is not just in a spiritual -- in a
19 financial crisis, but Miami is in a spiritual
20 crisis as well.
21 I grew up there, I went to elementary and
22 junior high school there, and I consider Miami
23 one of my home towns, too.
24 I believe and I have seen the reaction that
25 people have to this site, and to the power of
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1 this site. And I believe that we have an
2 opportunity here to bring a spiritual healing
3 that -- the likes of which we may never have
4 done before in this country, to the harm that
5 has been done the red first nations, and to the
6 harm that has been perpetuated maybe by that
7 evil into the spiritual crisis of today.
8 And I ask you to recognize our belief that
9 what the -- these indigenous people did there,
10 they did not just for the people at that time,
11 but they did for the ancestors, and for the
12 seventh generation that walks this ground
13 today.
14 Thank you.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
16 MS. ANDERSON: If you have any questions --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's a very powerful
18 statement. Thank you for coming up.
19 MR. GREEN: Lance McGee.
20 MR. LANCE McGEE: My name is Lance
21 Little Chief. I'm of Chiricahua, Apache, and
22 Comanche descent.
23 I come before you today not as a Tequesta
24 Indian, not as a Seminole, but as an indigenous
25 person of this state and of this nation.
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1 I have lived in this state all my life, and
2 I have seen many other nations here. The
3 Tequesta are now gone in this state. But we
4 are distant relatives of them.
5 We do not divide each other into Comanche
6 and Cheyenne and Tequesta, Seminole,
7 Miccosukee, but we see each other as brother
8 and sister and cousin, as a whole family that
9 lives here.
10 This site, the Circle, is a great symbol of
11 life. If no one ever took on the
12 responsibility to try to save this Circle, and
13 the Circle was destroyed, it would be the same
14 symbolic statement that we are destroying life
15 here on the earth through development.
16 I come here to represent the people of
17 Miami, the indigenous people, to say that this
18 site needs to stay where it is, that it has not
19 lost a spiritual value, it still has it. It
20 has just been lost for many years, and now it
21 has been found.
22 Our hearts grieve with the thoughts of the
23 land as it is now. The thoughts of the trail
24 of tears and the many other disgusting acts
25 that have been brought against the indigenous
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1 people of the whole western hemisphere.
2 So now I ask you that with the resources
3 that you have, that you join us side-by-side
4 with Dade County to help preserve this site,
5 where it is, not cut up into pieces of pie and
6 moved and perhaps even lost somewhere, maybe
7 even dumped in the ocean if that's what they
8 wish to do with it.
9 The City of Miami has been -- has known
10 that for 103 years, that whole area along the
11 Miami Circle River is an archeological
12 sensitive site, and they have done nothing.
13 They were on the side of development.
14 Will you be on the side of the people --
15 the people of this land, and fight for what you
16 believe in, for what your heart believes, not
17 what a law says, but what your heart believes.
18 The act that you take today is not required
19 by law, but by your conscience. And I ask
20 that -- from my heart to yours, from the
21 ancient ones who are here with us now, that you
22 make the right decision and preserve this most
23 sacred site.
24 Thank you.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
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1 MR. GREEN: Roy Two -- Two Feathers.
2 MR. TWO FEATHERS: It's good to see you
3 again.
4 Thank you for considering this. It is
5 vital. It is important to the spirituality of
6 the whole nation to take part in this recovery.
7 And that -- and that's all I'm going to
8 say, because everybody's saying about the same
9 thing.
10 So just take it upon yourself to take this
11 bold step.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir, for coming.
13 MR. GREEN: Paul McGee.
14 MR. PAUL McGEE: Thank you very much for
15 giving me this opportunity to speak before you.
16 My name is Paul McGee. I'm a Chiricahua,
17 Comanche descendent. My ancestors were brought
18 here during the removal with Geronimo, and we
19 are still here.
20 That goes to show you, even though the
21 people are not here, we're still here, because
22 I'm standing before you. I'm a descendent of
23 those people. The people that are down there
24 are still descendents of those people, even
25 though we may think they're extinct. But we're
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1 not extinct, we're still here.
2 I've been on the site, I've been outside
3 the Circle. We've not been allowed to go
4 inside the Circle. I went with Bobby Billie,
5 the Seminole medicine maker, around the Circle,
6 outside the perimeter of the Circle. He asked
7 me to attend with him a ceremonial blessing for
8 the people that are inside that Circle.
9 While we were there, he asked us to stop
10 and meditate. I closed my eyes, and I had a
11 vision. And in that vision, I saw those people
12 still inside that Circle, the people that still
13 own that Circle.
14 They were confused, not knowing what was
15 going on, what was happening. They were moving
16 about around the archeologists. Those people,
17 their spirit, are still there. It goes to tell
18 that we as people and our spirituality is still
19 there.
20 Lance Little Chief, my son, he spoke in
21 good words. But you must understand that we as
22 indigenous people, our set of values, our set
23 of beliefs is what -- is how we were brought up
24 as young children to respect the Creator, and
25 to respect the people that have been put in the
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1 ground, and their articles that belonged to
2 them.
3 If that was a site to where the Creator's
4 son was buried, would we have the right to go
5 inside that Circle and remove the Creator's son
6 and move his garments and move anything that's
7 there?
8 I don't think so. Because if we did, then
9 we would have to face the rath of the Creator.
10 And I don't believe that our conscience would
11 allow us to do that. I don't believe that as
12 human beings brought up in this society that we
13 would be allowed to desicrate a temple of the
14 Creator. And to me, that would be wrong. That
15 would be spiritually wrong, morally wrong.
16 We look at Miami. I used to live in Miami
17 as a small boy. I lived with the Seminole
18 tribe all my life.
19 I'm a former -- I'm retired law enforcement
20 officer. I served my community. I've taken an
21 oath to protect and serve, just as you've taken
22 an oath in the office that you hold, for the
23 people of -- of this whole great State of
24 Florida.
25 But you must understand, to desicrate, we
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1 must have to face a higher power. And to Him
2 is where the answer's going to come, and to Him
3 he's going to say, when you made that decision,
4 you did good. But when you made the wrong
5 decision, I see you, and I know you.
6 And without any respect, I thank you for
7 allowing me to speak before you.
8 Wehah tehada hey.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming.
10 MR. GREEN: Shannon Larsen.
11 Not here.
12 Okay. The last speaker is Will Abberger.
13 MR. ABBERGER: Thank you, Governor Bush,
14 members of the Cabinet. I'm Will Abberger with
15 the Trust for Public Land. We're a private
16 non-profit land conservation organization.
17 I've had the honor of working with the State of
18 Florida, and other public agencies to protect
19 more than 135,000 acres, including some very
20 important archeological sites.
21 We're here simply in support of
22 Dade County, Mayor Penelas,
23 Commissioner Sorenson, urging you that this is
24 an appropriate use of the Emergency
25 Archeological Act. We were involved in helping
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1 the Legislature draft that legislation about
2 ten years ago, and we're involved in the single
3 instance where it's been used for the
4 Snake Waters Island acquisition in
5 Broward County, and believe this is an entirely
6 appropriate use.
7 And when you do take this item back up for
8 discussion, or for a vote, would urge you to
9 use those emergency archeological funds.
10 And also as a second item, to consider
11 requesting that the Land Acquisition Management
12 Advisory Committee take this application out of
13 order, and put it in the process for CARL
14 funding under the Conservation and Recreation
15 Land Acquisition Program.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
17 Commissioner Sorenson, can I ask you a
18 question?
19 MS. SORENSON: Sure.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- or I can ask staff
21 probably. This relates to eminent domain.
22 MS. SORENSON: Okay.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: What is the --
24 MS. SORENSON: Maybe I'll ask our attorney
25 then to come forward as well.
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February 23, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: What is the difference in
2 timing between a quick process and the slow
3 process that you all are pursuing?
4 MS. SORENSON: I never like to practice law
5 without a license. So I'm going to defer to
6 our County Attorney.
7 MR. LOGUE: Governor Bush, members of the
8 Cabinet, my name's Tom Logue. I'm an Assistant
9 County Attorney.
10 In this process, the -- we're going to try
11 to track this such that if we can't settle
12 it -- and we're working overtime on trying to
13 settle it -- that the process would take about
14 the same amount of time.
15 I'd ask you to keep in mind, a quick take
16 is not an immediate take.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's right.
18 MR. LOGUE: In other words, with a quick
19 take, even though you file escrow -- certain
20 monies with the Court, it still takes a couple
21 months before there's a final finding by the
22 Court that the take can go forward.
23 We're hoping to move this process quickly.
24 If I may, there is -- the one point I would
25 like to make to -- to this body is, we do have
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1 an emergency here. The -- I don't think you
2 can imagine a property that has been more at
3 risk.
4 I've been involved in historic preservation
5 for 12 years. The stone cutters and the
6 backhoes were on the property to cut this rock.
7 The property was brought to the very eve of
8 development by the developers.
9 It's because there was a crisis that a
10 lawsuit was filed. A preliminary injunction
11 has been obtained, but as Governor Butterworth
12 will tell you, this is subject to a more
13 extensive hearing, and could be dismissed by a
14 Court which -- when we'd be back in this
15 emergency mode that we've been in for the last
16 month.
17 And also let me say this: I think there's
18 an emergency regarding the developer's rights.
19 And that's something that the County is not
20 overlooking here --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: So the answer to the
22 question is that it's the same speed either
23 way.
24 MR. LOGUE: Your Honor, I ask your
25 indulgence. Yes.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Good.
2 MR. LOGUE: In this -- in this scenario.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's helpful.
4 MR. LOGUE: In this scenario.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, if I
6 could.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: What -- how much
9 money are we talking about here?
10 MS. SORENSON: The question of money -- if
11 we address the question of money, then we
12 actually put a price, and the jury has to
13 decide that.
14 And so I'm not going to even speculate on
15 what it might cost us, because that will simply
16 become the price that will end up in court.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Except a developer
18 has his rights to the profit he would make
19 under the permits he gets to build the
20 apartment building. It would be part of the
21 evidence, I would gather.
22 MS. SORENSON: I assume that would be part
23 of the evidence. But further than that, I
24 really can't comment.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, is the
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February 23, 1999
1 County prepared to pay the price, whatever it
2 is?
3 MS. SORENSON: We are prepared to seek the
4 funding sources necessary, and we're trying to
5 look at a number of funding sources, including
6 our own.
7 We're asking the State to make a
8 contribution; we're going to the Federal
9 government; we're looking at private
10 foundations, both local and national; and to
11 look at some of our own resources, including
12 environmental endangered lands as well as other
13 sources.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: How many units does the
15 developer have permitted for?
16 MR. LOGUE: Governor, I think he's looking
17 at 600 units, apartment units.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: He's got development rights
19 for that -- or had development rights for?
20 MR. LOGUE: Well, that's what his permits
21 roughly indicate.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And it's -- and how
24 many acres of land is it?
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Two-and-a-half.
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February 23, 1999
1 MR. LOGUE: Two point two?
2 MS. SORENSON: Two-and-a-half?
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
4 MS. SORENSON: It's two-and-a-half acres of
5 land.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments?
7 So, Madam Secretary, next -- two weeks from
8 today, we will be back here --
9 SECRETARY HARRIS: That's correct.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to deal with this.
11 And -- and just so our guests know, this
12 was brought up at very quick notice, and there
13 was not enough time to notice the -- to make --
14 to take action today, but we are very grateful
15 that you all came.
16 And I'm sure we'll see some of you back
17 I guess in a couple of weeks.
18 MS. SORENSON: Thank you so much for
19 hearing us, Governor, and members of the
20 Cabinet.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
22 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
23 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
24 *
25
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February 23, 1999
1 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
2 1:02 p.m.)
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February 23, 1999
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
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5 STATE OF FLORIDA:
6 COUNTY OF LEON:
7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
11 pages numbered 1 through 194 are a true and correct
12 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
16 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
17 DATED THIS 8TH day of MARCH, 1999.
18
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20 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
100 Salem Court
21 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
850/878-2221
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Cabinet
Affairs
