The Governor and Cabinet - Florida Department of State

Cabinet Affairs

T H E C A B I N E T

S T A T E O F F L O R I D A

Representing: STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, March 9, 1999, commencing at approximately 9:12 a.m. Reported by: LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter Registered Merit Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
100 SALEM COURT TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 2
APPEARANCES: Representing the Florida Cabinet: JEB BUSH Governor BOB CRAWFORD Commissioner of Agriculture BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller KATHERINE HARRIS Secretary of State BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General BILL NELSON Treasurer TOM GALLAGHER Commissioner of Education *

3 March 9, 1999 I N D E X ITEM ACTION PAGE STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION: (Presented by Tom Herndon, Executive Director) 1 Approved 5 2 Approved 5 3 Deferred 6 4 Deferred 6 5 A. Deferred 20 5 B. Approved 21 6 Deferred 21 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE: (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III, Director) 1 Approved 22 2 Approved 22 3 Approved 23 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES: (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III, Executive Director) 1 Approved 24 2 Approved 24 3 Approved 25 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson, Deputy Commissioner) 1 Approved 34 2 Withdrawn 34 3 Discussion 34 4 Approved 83 5 Approved 83

4 March 9, 1999 I N D E X (Continued) ITEM ACTION PAGE ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION: (Presented by Teresa Tinker, Acting Secretary) 1 Approved 85 2 Approved 85 3 Approved 86 4 Approved 86 5 Approved 86 6 Approved 86 7 Approved 87 8 Approved 99 9 Approved 181 DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD: (Presented Kirby B. Green, III, Deputy Secretary) 1 Approved 182 2 Approved 183 BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND: (Presented Kirby B. Green, III, Deputy Secretary) 1 Approved 267 Substitute 2 Deferred 267 Substitute 3 Approved 267 Substitute 4 Deferred 268 5 Approved 268 6 Approved 268 Substitute 7 Deferred 269 8 Approved 269 9 Approved 269 10 Approved 270 11 Approved 266 12 Presentation 270 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 320 *

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 5 March 9, 1999 P R O C E E D I N G S
(The agenda items commenced at 10:02 a.m.)
GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of
Administration.
Mr. Herndon.
MR. HERNDON: Item Number 1 is approval of
the minutes of the meeting held on
February 23rd, 1999.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the minutes.
TREASURER NELSON: Second.
(Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. HERNDON: Item Number 2 is approval of
a fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding
nine million two hundred thousand dollars for
the State of Florida, Department of Management
Services, Florida Facilities Pool Revenue
Bonds.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it.
TREASURER NELSON: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. HERNDON: Items Number 3 and 4 are both
fiscal determinations for the Florida Housing

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 6 March 9, 1999 Finance Agency. We're recommending those be
deferred.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move deferral of
Items 3 and 4.
TREASURER NELSON: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, both of them are
deferred.
MR. HERNDON: Item Number 5 A. is the
requested approval of the Trustees for the
premium formula for the Cat Fund.
I understand that there may be some
questions. Dr. Nicholson is here, and will be
available to answer any questions or give you
any background information that you might like.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner.
TREASURER NELSON: Governor, if I may.
Now, as I understand what you're asking for
is an overall 2.54 percent increase. Is that
correct?
DR. NICHOLSON: Yes, sir.
(Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
TREASURER NELSON: This is in the Cat Fund
premium that will be allocated to companies,
and then the companies will turn around and

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 7 March 9, 1999 send that premium out to the policyholders,
that --
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. Let's get
into what makes up this 2.54 percent increase.
It's an average of 2.49 percent increase
for all residential homes; is that correct?
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: Okay. And that's every
home in the state of Florida.
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now, the
chart that I have here, which is an
illustration of a $100,000 frame home, it shows
that on that average of two-and-a-half percent
statewide, but that translates into
eleven-and-a-half percent increase for
Pensacola, and eleven-and-a-half percent
increase for Miami; is that right?
DR. NICHOLSON: That is the rate that we
would charge the insurance company for that
exposure. That doesn't have any bearing what
the consumer would pay.
TREASURER NELSON: But the insurance
company in that area where it is covering homes

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 8 March 9, 1999 in Pensacola and Miami --
DR. NICHOLSON: That's right.
TREASURER NELSON: -- would have an
eleven-and-a-half percent increase in their
Cat Fund premium.
Is that correct?
DR. NICHOLSON: Based on that exposure.
Overall it'd be the -- the total exposures that
would increase their Cat Fund premium, not just
that one.
TREASURER NELSON: But that is passed on to
the homeowner ratepayers.
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now, as I
understand it, this estimate of this overall
increase is based on the base of computer
models; is that correct?
DR. NICHOLSON: That's right. It's --
we're required by law to the extent feasible to
use computer models.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. Let's get
into some of these computer models.
Now, it's -- it's no secret that I have a
great deal of suspicion about computer models,
Dr. Nicholson, and Mr. Herndon. And -- and

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 9 March 9, 1999 you know why, because I've seen in the past,
for example, we had a -- an insurance company's
rate increase based on one of the computer
models that you use here. And what we found
was what the computer model said that you ought
to be charging for --
(Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.)
TREASURER NELSON: -- hurricane exposure
exceeded the actual cost of what it cost on the
experience of hurricanes in this century by
40 percent.
And so right out, I just want to state my
concerns about these computer models, and my
concerns of not wanting homeowners to be held
hostage to a computer.
So I -- I want to kind of get into this --
(Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)
TREASURER NELSON: -- on the basis on which
you did this.
You -- you had how many computer models
that you relied on in coming to this
calculation?
DR. NICHOLSON: We used three computer
models. There -- we used three for the reason
that we felt like that it was feasible to use

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 10 March 9, 1999 three from the standpoint of we were trying to
apply the results of the Florida Commission on
Hurricane Loss projection methodology that
approved three models.
And we felt like that over the long run,
combining three models would add more stability
to the long-term rates.
With one exception. We used one model, the
one that you've used in the past, the AIR
model, to rate for res-- commercial
residential.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now, is
it -- is it true -- oh. And, by the way, in
the commercial residential, which is the
condominium associations, that's about a
20 percent increase in your calculations; is it
not?
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct. 19--
TREASURER NELSON: Statewide average.
DR. NICHOLSON: And in that -- when we say
condominium associations, let me point out that
a hundred and -- there's 176,000 exposure units
in the state, 148,000 of those are valued at
less than 250,000 exposure. So I don't know
that it'd be correct to characterize that as --

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 11 March 9, 1999 as condominium, you know, associations. It
could be apartments and smaller condominiums.
TREASURER NELSON: But that category of
commercial residential, which includes
condominium associations, has a 20 percent
increase under this request --
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: -- is that right?
DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Now, let's --
let's get into these different computer models.
I would have a great deal more comfort,
Governor, if -- if we saw a consistency in
these models. But I'm seeing a printout here
on the -- the weighted average loss cost per
$1,000 on frame construction.
For example, in Miami-Dade County, one
computer model has it at $5.97; and another
computer model has it almost double that, at
$10.23. And that's just in one county.
Hillsborough, it's a difference between
76 cents, and $1.77 on the high end.
And in Orange County, the -- the range is
even greater. It's -- the low computer model
had those loss costs at 48 cents per $1,000,

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 12 March 9, 1999 and the high computer model had it over three
times that much, at $1.74.
So how do you explain the variation in
these computer models?
DR. NICHOLSON: These are statistical
models that deal with a very big problem, and
that is the problem associated with
catastrophes and predicting catastrophes.
As you're aware, there's a good bit of
uncertainty involved in all the elements that
go into creating insurance losses. There's
uncertainty with regard to the storms; there's
uncertainty with regard to the damage that's
going to be produced; there's uncertainty
regarding the actual claims that will be filed,
because the way that insurance companies and
claims adjusters and policyholders interact.
So due to that, a lot of the differences,
I think, is involved with the underlying data
that incorporates the models.
So I think what you'll find is that there
is a considerable amount of variation, because
there's a lot of proprietary data that's
collected, and research that goes into each of
these models.

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 13 March 9, 1999 There are statistical models, and
statistics is the science for dealing with
uncertainty. And these are state of the art
models that are being used.
TREASURER NELSON: And -- and these are
models, are they not, that are developed
basically by money that is supplied from the
insurance industry.
DR. NICHOLSON: I -- I don't know how
they're developed -- I understood it was
proprietary firms that -- that don't have an
ownership by insurance companies. Some may,
but I'm not sure of the financial backing.
There's the RMS model. I don't believe
that's owned by an insurance company; the AIR
model that's owned by Karen Clark, who's an
individual; the EQECAT model used to be owned
by Guy Carpenter. It split this past year, so
it's no longer owned by Guy Carpenter.
The Blanch -- well, those are the three
that we use.
TREASURER NELSON: Right.
But all of those have contracts -- they get
paid by the insurance companies who employ
their services.

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 14 March 9, 1999 DR. NICHOLSON: That's correct.
TREASURER NELSON: And, Governor, that
underscores one of the things --
Mr. Comptroller and Governor, that we are
requesting in the budget this year is a
2 million dollar appropriation to the State
University System of Florida so that Florida
can build its own independent computer model,
and not on hurricane loss costs. That's what
this is.
So that we have our own independent model
to rely upon, instead of relying on these
models that, indeed, are employed by the
insurance industry.
All right. Let me just -- one other thing,
and I want you to -- to tell me this: As I
understand it, you have these three different
hurricane loss cost computer models, and
they're all over the landscape as to what they
project as the loss cost. So you took an --
you, the Cat Fund -- took an arbitrary method
of assigning 25 percent of value to one,
50 percent of value to another, and 25 percent
of value to another, and then averaged those,
and that's how you came up with how much the

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 15 March 9, 1999 premium increase ought to be.
Is -- is that correct?
DR. NICHOLSON: That's -- that's the way
that we -- now, the 50 percent load was given
to the middle result of the models. It
wasn't -- so it's wasn't arbitrary. It was the
middle.
What that does is it biases the result
toward the average, and also toward the two
models that are in closer agreement. That's --
that's the overall impact of that.
TREASURER NELSON: Well, Governor, there is
sufficient concern in -- in my mind about
whether or not there should be an average
two-and-a-half percent increase in the Cat Fund
premiums in the homeowner area that would get
passed on to each of the homeowners, a
20 percent increase that would get passed on to
all the condominium associations.
The Cat Fund -- let me just say this, in
case that you think that my comments are
critical.
I am the biggest fan in the world of the
Cat Fund, because the Cat Fund is the one
singular institution that probably, more than

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 16 March 9, 1999 any other, has helped us restore the
competitive marketplace in homeowners'
insurance since that mega hurricane that we all
suffered from.
And they have a tremendous success. They
have the ability to offset 11 billion dollars
of homeowner losses today if we got hit by
another Andrew plus.
And so it -- it is just -- it's tremendous,
and I have praised them before you got here,
Governor, I praise them every time, because
they've just done a terrific job. And
Mr. Herndon and Dr. Nicholson have done a
terrific job.
But they are coming to us now asking us to
approve this rate increase, that as you dig
behind the numbers, there is a lot of question
to me as to whether or not we ought to rely on
the way that they have come up with this
calculation.
So I would move to defer this item until we
can get further information.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: May I, Governor?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I will second

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 17 March 9, 1999 the deferral.
I share concerns also about modeling. But
I am not convinced that these models are
necessarily bad models, or inaccurate models.
I look forward to sometime in the future
perhaps having a third or fourth or fifth or
sixth model developed by the State essentially
that may enable us to give a little more
credibility to whatever models we are dealing
with.
But I -- I -- I don't see any other way of
attacking this problem, other than through
modeling. And -- and I have certainly listened
to the Commissioner's comments in the past on
his concerns with the variance that he sees in
modeling, and perhaps the influence by the
industry on the models. I'm not so sure we
won't see another influence on a State
developed model that may go the other way.
So, you know, ultimately, we have to apply
our best judgment as to how well we think these
models act and -- and what credence that we put
in them.
And I, frankly, think the Cat Fund folks
did a good job in trying to level the

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 18 March 9, 1999 sensitivity with the three models that were
used.
I spent considerable hours on trying to
understand not so much the -- the results of
the models, but rather merely the -- the impact
on the consumer.
And while we hear these percentages thrown
around, those percentages are not really the
percentages that are passed on to the consumer.
And I -- and I'm not convinced yet that I --
I'm not -- I really don't understand that
process yet, and I need to spend more time,
I think, trying to understand that.
And for that reason, I will support the
deferral.
But it is -- it is -- we are -- to talk
about 20 percent or 19 percent, which is the
number I think, in fact, we're using, being
passed on to commercial residential, that's
really not what is being passed on to the -- to
that consumer. The same thing with the 2.59,
or whatever it was, for residential. That's
really not what is being passed on to the
consumer.
And understanding that is -- is rather

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 19 March 9, 1999 difficult.
So I -- I support the deferral.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, this -- we're
deferring, and what -- what's going to happen?
I mean, what -- you're going to talk -- you're
going to -- your staff is going to work up --
make an alternative or have a suggestion or --
TREASURER NELSON: Well, I don't know.
I think what we've got to do is to get a better
comfort level as to how they arrived at these
calculations.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So you just want the time
to -- to work with -- with the Cat Fund staff
to get -- get your comfort level up.
TREASURER NELSON: And there are additional
items in here that I think that Mr. Herndon
would want to have passed today, which I think
is fine. It -- the question that I am raising
the deferral on is on the --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Item A.
TREASURER NELSON: -- premium formula.
Yes.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
Well, there's a motion and a second to
defer.

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 20 March 9, 1999 Without objection, it is agreed and
approved.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If -- if I could add
one more comment, Governor. I hope when they
come back, they will be able to clearly
identify what the pass-through will be to the
consumer.
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's --
MR. HERNDON: There's no way to know.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Based on these
models, which we don't have any other source
of -- of decision making. But what the actual
pass-throughs in a nut -- in a way that I can
understand it at least.
And I -- I would move Item 5 B.
MR. HERNDON: All right. Item 5 B. is a
set of four rules. In -- in concert with the
motion that you just adopted to defer the
premium, we would recommend that you adopt all
of these rules for filing for notice, which is
all they do, except 19-8.028, which is the
premium notice rule.
The others are, I think non--
GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion.
Is there a second?

STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 21 March 9, 1999 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, the rules are approved.
MR. HERNDON: And Item Number 6, which is a
further report for you on the retirement system
unfunded actuarial liability, we'd recommend
deferral till we get the additional information
from the lawyers, which are --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move deferral.
MR. HERNDON: -- they're working on it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
TREASURER NELSON: Second.
MR. HERNDON: That completes --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, the
rules are approved --
MR. HERNDON: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- rules are deferred.
(The State Board of Administration Agenda
was concluded.)
*

DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 22 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
minutes.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is a resolution
authorizing the competitive sale of up to
9.2 million dollars in facilities revenue bonds
for construction of a regional service center
in Opa Locka.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it is approved.
MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is a report of
award on the competitive sale of a hundred and
nine million eight hundred thirty-five thousand
dollars of turnpike revenue bonds. The bonds
were awarded to the low bidder at a -- at a bid
TIC of 4.8683 percent.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's

DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 23 March 9, 1999 approved.
MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
(The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
concluded.)
*

DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES 24 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Highway Safety and Motor
Vehicles.
Item 1.
MR. DICKINSON: Governor, Item 1 is
approval of minutes from the January 26th, '99,
Cabinet meeting.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. DICKINSON: Item Number 2 is request
approval of our quarterly report for the
quarter ending December 1998.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion?
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move approval.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Second?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. DICKINSON: We go from the Cat Fund to
the tag fund, Governor. These are the last two
tags we have for approval this year. That'll
bring us up to 43 and 44.
The first tag is Conserve Wildlife tag.

DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES 25 March 9, 1999 And the money goes to the black bear -- to help
the black bear and other related species.
And the Keep Drugs Free goes to drug abuse
functions in the various cities.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I ask a --
a question --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
TREASURER NELSON: -- on a previous item?
Can you give us an update on this
motor vehicle inspection program? I understand
there's -- that recent legislation has all but
eliminated competition for future inspection
contracts.
Tell us about that.
MR. DICKINSON: Governor, as you know, and,
Commissioner, the -- we have six counties that
are currently inspecting for emissions, and
we've had that contract for some years. That
contract expires next spring.
We have been working with the Legislature,

DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES 26 March 9, 1999 Department -- Department of Environmental
Protection, and the interested vendors who we
are currently in contract with.
We have three vendors in -- in this state
that have five contracts in the six counties.
And I can get with your staff and tell you how
that all factors in.
But basically, the Legislature passed a
bill last year that if nothing happens this
year, would require us to carry on the current
testing program, but go to a two-year testing
instead of a current annual inspection; and
exempt four model years and up.
So we're going to substantially reduce the
number of cars that would be going through the
inspection program. And that is directly
related to the cars that failed this
inspection, which are obviously your older
model cars.
There is some legislation offered for this
session that we are currently working with that
allows us to go out to bid -- or requires us,
actually, to go out to bid. And it would tell
us to bid both the entire state and the various
counties.

DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES 27 March 9, 1999 So it gives us a little option. I think
we'll have some competition. But, quite
frankly, these vendors have the established
business sites in their counties, and I would
think the existing vendors certainly have a
substantial advantage in that respect.
We -- we've looked into negotiation, we've
looked into -- go out for an RFP or an ITB;
and, of course, the extension of the current
contract. So all that is pending before the
Legislature as we speak.
And I will tell you that the way that
statute is crafted, we would come to you for
approval because of anything, because it is --
it's pretty direct to our agency of where we
have to go.
There's a concern also over the fee. If we
eliminate a large number of current cars that
are being inspected, the fee's probably going
to be driven up.
There's also a report out there that tells
us to go to a more substantive test for
Noxides, or NOx -- it's called NOx testing.
Right now we -- we don't do that extensive a
test.

DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES 28 March 9, 1999 So those are some factors that are -- are
currently involved in what we're doing
upstairs.
TREASURER NELSON: Do you plan to do that
in your future contracts on nitrous oxides?
MR. DICKINSON: We don't know. That'll --
that'll be up to the Legislature also.
The recommendation from that report was to
go to the nitrous oxide testing. It's a --
TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
MR. DICKINSON: -- it's a more substantive
test, more expensive test. We -- we're looking
into it.
TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Fred.
MR. DICKINSON: Thank you.
(The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
*

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 29 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education.
MR. PIERSON: Item 1 is Florida Systems of
School Improvement Accountability Statement of
Cooperation.
Senator Phil Lewis will give a brief
presentation of comments.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome, Senator Lewis.
SENATOR LEWIS: Good morning. Good
morning.
Governor and distinguished members of the
Cabinet, I'm pleased to be here on behalf of
the Florida Commission on Education and
Accountability. I'm temporarily the
Vice Chairman.
The original Statement of Cooperation was
carried out through the Accountability
Commission's Postsecondary Accountability
Articulation Committee. It was developed out
of a need to involve all sectors, particularly
the postsecondary sectors, in the
implementation of the 1991 Blueprint 2000
legislation that called for reform and
restructuring of Florida's public schools.
In the original statement, the chairmen of
all sectors, boards, and commissions agreed to

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 30 March 9, 1999 work together to facilitate education reform.
The document focused on three areas: Student
transition; i.e., one level to the next;
student assessment and credentialing; and
teacher education.
The current statement focuses on the need
to establish and maintain partnerships among
the State's postsecondary institutions and
public schools. It was drafted with the
involvement and input of staff from all
education sectors. It focuses on student
achievement, school improvement, student
access, postsecondary programs and services in
the success in the workplace.
We will be asking today -- we are meeting
right after this meeting, by the way, for those
of you that are planning to be there. I just
mention, we've moved that up to 11:30, with
the -- Commissioner Gallagher's permission to
be in his conference room.
We're going to be working on an action plan
to implement this whole program. The -- if --
one of the things we are going to be doing --
and I ask your attention on this, as you may --
some of you may or may not know the

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 31 March 9, 1999 Accountability Commission after this session
probably will not exist. It -- and I urge you
to do something; i.e. to give it to the
PEPC Commission, to keep this one rolling.
Because when you begin to think about the
crying and complaining about not having enough
baccalaureate degrees, that's pretty simple
arithmetic. You go down and look and see how
many kids are coming out of the K-12 system,
we're getting shortchanged in many places, as
the Commissioner called attention to the other
day. Maybe we have a 50 percent graduation
rate.
Now, if you're not getting them in from
below, where are we going to get them from?
Second thing on -- this is, by the way,
something I really feel strong about, as you
might have already guessed -- and that is
teacher education.
If they ain't got it, they can't give it.
And I'm going to tell you, our State University
System, and the university systems across this
country, have a responsibility on teaching
children -- teachers what's going on in the
classroom.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 32 March 9, 1999 And if you want A+ implemented properly,
you're going to need some teachers to implement
it for you, as well as administrators that know
what they're doing, which I support, by the
way, Governor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
SENATOR LEWIS: So I would ask you to --
you've all got a copy of it.
Commissioner, I don't know whether you want
to say anything or not, but -- not that you
ever are shy about saying anything.
And, by the way, I would introduce those of
you who are on this -- Barry Banther. He's
from the State Board of Independent Colleges.
You want to stand up?
Paul Miller, State Board of Noncareer
Education; Bill Proctor from the Independent
Colleges and Universities. He's our -- he's
one of the more mild, modest, nonconservative
guys we have.
And then staff is here, Tom Furlong,
Sam Ferguson, Wayne Freeberg, Bill Proctor from
PEPC, David Armstrong; and Jon Rogers, who
helps put this altogether. And we plan to
meet, as I said, up in your office,

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 33 March 9, 1999 Commissioner. And I just urge you to pursue
this. This is an important part of our system.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Senator.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, just to
make it clear what we're doing here is this is
a new statement that is a renewed commitment to
an interdependent and coordinated pre-K through
postsecondary education system.
The idea is to promote a -- one system of
education for Florida from prekindergarten all
the way through postsecondary education. And
we're looking to work together to provide a
seamless and smooth educational experience for
the students at all levels.
And I will tell you that all of us that are
involved in this in each level, including our
Lieutenant Governor and myself; and the
Independent Community Colleges and
Universities; the State Board of Nonpublic
Career Education; State Board of Community
Colleges; Independent Colleges and Universities
of Florida; as well as the Education Standards
Commission; and, of course, the
Board of Regents have all signed, and we're
going to work together to make this a seamless

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 34 March 9, 1999 education for our children in this state.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Excellent.
SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you, Governor,
members of the --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Second?
SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's
approved.
Thank you.
SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you.
MR. PIERSON: We request that Item 2 be
withdrawn.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. PIERSON: Item 3 is a policy discussion
on extending the school year. We have a
presentation by Wayne Nagy.
MR. NAGY: Good morning, Governor Bush, and
Cabinet members. My name is Wayne Nagy. I'm
governmental relations liaison person for
Leon County schools.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 35 March 9, 1999 And today I want to share an idea with you
that I've shared with a number of people
already. I've talked extensively with
Commissioner Gallagher, I've had approval from
the Florida Accountability Commission, the
Florida School Boards Association, I've talked
with Lieutenant Governor Frank Brogan about
this idea, and Senate President Toni Jennings,
and Speaker John Thrasher, and they all thought
it had a lot of merit, so I'm here to share it
with you.
Dealing with Student Achievement
Professional Instructors Bill, the Senate
Bill 1145 is sponsored by Senator
Burt Saunders; and the House Bill 833 is
sponsored by Representative Lindsay Harrington.
The passage of this bill will have an
immediate positive impact on student
achievement in the state of Florida,
guaranteed.
There's a section in your material on time
and learning. I want you to see that back in
the '60s and '70s, that Benjamin Bloom did a
lot of research work on mastery learning, and
Larry Lozotte picked up an effects of --

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 36 March 9, 1999 effective schools research in the '90s, and
they all arrived at the same conclusion:
Increased student teacher contact time by
effective teachers dramatically increases
student achievement of all students.
If you look at this (sic) findings I put in
there on the National Education Commission on
time and learning, after 40 years of opposing a
longer school year, the majority of Americans
now want a longer school year. They also
increase -- or they're in favor of increased
school year, as opposed to an increased school
day.
The Commission also realized that educators
do not have the time they need now to do the
job properly. And if we want to master world
class standards, we must require more time for
all students.
Another interesting part from the RAND
study showed that new teaching strategies can
require as much as 50 hours of instruction,
practice, and coaching before teachers become
comfortable with them. So if we want to give
teachers something of effective teaching
techniques, we need to give them the time to

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 37 March 9, 1999 make it part of them so they'll go in and not
just forget about it the next day, and actually
use it for years to come.
Presently in Florida, we give the teachers
ten staff development days. They also have six
paid holidays in most Florida counties.
Yet most teachers in the European and Asian
countries have a minimum of 20 non-student
days. These days are used for instructional
preparation, grading, in-service education, and
consulting with colleagues.
Now, all of you remember -- as I look up
there, you're all of age to remember -- in
1989, the Educational Summit met and decided by
the year 2000, America will be first in the
world in mathematics, and America's students
will be first in the world of science -- in
science.
And these were lofty goals. But, ladies
and gentlemen, 2000 is now. And the actual
information we were able to get from the Third
International Mathematics and Science Study,
the TIMSS research, shows that mathematics and
general knowledge, we placed 19th out of
21 countries; and in science general knowledge,

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 38 March 9, 1999 16th out of 21 countries.
And we know we have the talent. We know
it. You've seen some of the talent today. Why
don't -- why don't we score better.
Well, if you look at the next page, all
21 countries have two things in common. It's
almost just simple common sense. More
student-teacher contact days than the
United States. And more non-student contact
days for professional development.
The next page I show are some data reports,
so you can see that Japan has 243 days of
student contact time; China, 240; Germany, 204;
Russia, 208; Canada, 195; England, 192; and
then there's the United States at 180.
The length of teacher contract. When you
hired me to teach 26 years ago, I was excited,
I was right out of college, I couldn't wait to
get down to Florida to teach. You hired me on
a 196-day contract, and I was excited because I
had the longest teaching contract of 20 other
industrialized nations.
If you hired me today to teach, you would
hire me on a 196-day contract, and I would have
the least amount of time of all of those other

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 39 March 9, 1999 nations as far as teacher contract time.
What the teachers want. Well, I talked to
the teachers directly. And they want time, and
they want money.
But what do they want the time for? They
want the time because of all the things we've
done up here to make our school system a better
school system, and things that we've supported
on a local level. Our Board totally supports
the Sunshine State Standards, the F-CAT, the
Florida Writes, the school achievement levels,
disaggregated achievement data, professional
development for effective teaching methods. We
strongly support all of that. But it takes
time.
And money. The teachers want an annual
respectable salary to compare with other
professionals.
Now, to treat teachers as professionals, we
should give them a competitive annual salary,
and we want to give them professional
development paid at a daily rate of pay.
Now, when I researched this area more
closely, I saw the current occupational wages
shows that a competitive hourly rate is already

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 40 March 9, 1999 in place. We have a low annual rate, but we're
competitive on an hourly rate.
Turn the page, you'll see occupational
wages for my area. I wanted to make it
specific so we can actually look at specific
professionals.
Accountants, hourly rate benefits, $20.48;
civil engineers, twenty-six sixty-two;
executives, twenty-three ninety-nine; even
veterinarians, twenty-seven fifty-one; program
computers, twenty-three oh six; local teachers,
twenty-four sixty-nine. We are paying them an
hourly rate that is fair and professional.
But if you'll look at the last column where
we compare our annual rates, we lose out.
We're at the bottom.
So when people are com-- going into a
profession, they're looking at their annual
rate, what kind of car they can live in, how
well they can treat their children, what kind
of house they can live in. They look at that
annual rate, they don't look at the hourly
rate.
So let's give the teachers what they've
been asking for.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 41 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: How are we doing if you add
the benefits in?
MR. NAGY: Pardon me?
Well, the benefits will probably even make
a bigger difference, because the benefits right
now are between 30 to 33 percent in addition.
We didn't want to -- I didn't want to muddy the
waters. I want to --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, but I mean --
MR. NAGY: -- apples with apples.
GOVERNOR BUSH: How about for the annual
rate as well, wouldn't it be -- make a
difference there?
MR. NAGY: It would make a difference
there. But here again, we'd have to compare
what the other annual -- what the other
companies are offering, which I didn't do.
I have this data -- this is actual factual
data from the State of Florida. And I wanted
to stick with actual factual data. But that
can be researched.
The next page, we're talking about giving
the teachers what they've been asking for:
More time, six student-teacher contract days,
and five professional development days, and

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 42 March 9, 1999 more money. A higher annual salary. More pay
for more day's work.
Now, why haven't we done this up till now?
Well, here again, I look up there and I see
that every one of you have worked in the
funding issues. We know that funding's been a
problem.
And the Department of Education gave me a
rough calculation from Mr. Link Jarrett's
office. The cost to operate the Florida
educational system for one day is
60 million dollars. If we wanted to bring just
the teachers in for staff development, it's
36 million dollars.
So where do we get the money?
Well, since we don't have an actual budget
for this year, I'm using last year's figures.
If you'll turn the page, you'll see that
there's a circle near the bottom right-hand
side of the page. It shows last year, we put
734.5 million dollars in additional money in
the educational system in the state of Florida.
If you turn the page, and -- the funding
summary, out of that 734 million, if we go by
Commissioner Gallagher's figures from this

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 43 March 9, 1999 year, we'll need 201 million dollars for
student growth and workload increases.
This is money we have to take right off the
top, because these are for new students, all
the things that go along with taking care of
new students.
So we have 533 million dollars for all
other educational district needs.
If you turn the page, on the actual -- it
shows how the actual general fund is expended.
You see the first check mark is next to percent
of general fund expenditures for salary,
64.5 percent. A little lower, you'll see the
estimated benefits for the same people is
21.5 percent. So there's the benefit amount
right there. Twenty-one point five percent.
On the next page, I totaled that up. The
percentage of general fund expenditures for
salaries and benefits, that's really for '98 --
or 98-99, we've totalled up to 86 percent.
That means out of that 536 -- 533 million
dollars, the district spent about 86 percent on
personnel, on salaries, because we're a people
business.
That equates out to 458 million dollars --

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 44 March 9, 1999 over 458 million dollars for salaries and
benefits.
If we look at the costs -- if we wanted to
start next year and add six more student
contact days, and -- that would come out to
60 million times six days, which is
360 million.
If we wanted to add five more professional
development days so we can give effective
teacher training, that would add 180 million,
with a total rough cost of 540 million.
Well, we already have 458 million that
would be used for salaries and benefits. So
that shows an 82 million dollar difference.
Now, how can we assure the students -- or
the citizens of the state of Florida this money
will be used to add six student-teacher contact
days, and five professional development days.
Because, as we know, when we put money out on
the table, that's where it is.
Well, the passage of the Student
Achievement Professional Instructors bill will
do just that. And I don't think you have the
bill in front of you. But if you'd just mark a
little note to look at page 9 and 10 of

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 45 March 9, 1999 Senate Bill 1154, you'll see that basically
what we're doing is we're changing the very
heart of the FEFP with just a couple of little
changes, to change the minimum requirements to
qualify for the Florida Educational Finance
Program.
We are always changing our minimum
requirements in Florida, and we're making them
go higher. This is just another case where we
can do the same thing.
Basically what we're stating is that we
would change -- in that particular area, we
will operate all schools for a term of at
least -- change one eighty to one eighty-six
actual teaching days.
And down on the part that deals with
teachers, in order to qualify for money from
the State, we must require ten months to
include not less than 207 days of service,
instead of 196, which would be the 11 days, six
for student-teacher contact days, and five for
professional development days.
And in order for school districts to
qualify for State funding, they would have to
meet the minimum requirements of the FEFP.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 46 March 9, 1999 Now, everybody that I've talked to so far
says: What are the union people going to say?
They're going to jump down your back.
Well, if you'll see, first of all, when
I -- in Washington -- I was in Washington,
D.C., I picked up the national inflation rate a
couple of weeks ago. And the national
inflation rate is at 1.6 percent.
So the most they can look forward to is a
cost of living increase maybe of 1.6 percent.
But if you look at the FTP-NEA legislative
program, these quotes I took directly out of
their programs.
Add two days to the 99-2000 school year for
in-service education. Gentlemen -- ladies and
gentlemen, we'd be adding five.
Compensate for training time at a full
daily rate of pay, as in other professions.
Training time should be valued as an important
aspect of work. We would be doing that.
Now, if we're looking at FEA United, they
made a statement ensuring quality education.
The solution is Florida must create a salary
base that is fair and competitive to retain
current teachers and staff and a salary base

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 47 March 9, 1999 that will attract more young people into the
profession. We would be doing that by adding
days at their daily rate.
The professional development is a
cornerstone to improve student learning, and
ensuring a quality education. It must be
ongoing, on-site, and it must be on point. We
would also be doing that for the passage of
this bill.
Now, after I went through all of this, I
sat down and looked at the information, and I
realized there's an indirect benefit that is
probably as important or more important than
anything else. I shouldn't say more important.
Student achievement is the most important issue
here.
But currently the Florida average teacher
salary is seventeen hundred and seven dollars
below that of the top southeastern state, which
is Georgia. By passing this bill, the
Florida's annual salary would be the highest in
the southeast. We would attract the best and
the brightest.
All research indicates that effective
teachers, more than anything else, more than

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 48 March 9, 1999 pupil teacher ratio, effective teachers have
the most dramatic impact on student
achievement, and closing the student
achievement gap between subgroups of students.
And we would be doing that.
Now, just as a -- to look a little bit
beyond this bill. If this bill was passed this
year -- I have a great respect for
Senator Sullivan. He has a wonderful bill
of -- dealing with the increasing days, up to
210 days.
I also would like to look at a way in which
we can do it in this respect: By adding six
additional days for the next five years after
this bill is passed, we would add one week
additional of students-teacher contact time,
and one professional staff development day each
year for five years.
We could do that with less than
3.3 increase in the current funding for
education. Because basically what we're doing
is we're trying to get all students up to
210 days, and all teachers on a 236-day
contract.
Now, if somewhere along the line we decided

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 49 March 9, 1999 this was too much, we could just stop. But the
plan is within five years, we can be there. We
can get to a 210-day school year for all
elementary, all middle, and all high school
students.
Now -- and the most important thing is we
can accomplish that within the existing budget
structure.
Now, it's incremental because we're doing
it in stages. We'll do it six days of student
contact time this year, and we could add a week
each year thereafter till we reach the -- the
amount that we would like to get.
It also allows the parents and the students
to adjust, and they're all adjusting. It's not
one group worrying about Jimmy going to school
210 days, and Joey going to school 180. We
have all students going through the same
adjustment process.
And it's permanent, because it's part of
the FEFP formula. And it's fair because it's
part of the FEFP formula.
Now, it -- if we become a bellwether state,
all other states would be looking toward
Florida. We'd be leading the nation.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 50 March 9, 1999 When I talked to people in Washington about
this, they said, we're going to watch this very
closely, because this is -- this is amazing,
this is the way it's -- it can go. And we just
can't understand why we haven't thought about
this sooner.
Now, there's two plans we could do right
now. We could do nothing, which is fairly
easy. And if we do nothing, the 533 million
dollars that you'll put into the budget this
year will be put on the table for terms and
conditions of employment.
Most of it will go to longevity, or step
increases, which are -- which are fine, except
the problem is, there's no research that
directly connects longevity with student
achievement.
And also, there's no research that show --
well, I shouldn't say that. I should say
that we'll also be increasing the hourly rate
of teachers. But we've already shown that we
are competitive on an hourly rate now.
So where can we better use this money?
Well, also, if we stayed and didn't do anything
anew, we would have no student-teacher --

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 51 March 9, 1999 additional student-teacher contact time, we
would have no additional effective teaching
training time, and we would have no additional
accountability.
But if we pass this bill, we would have
additional student-teacher contact time
immediately. And all research indicates that
is the best thing we can do as far as
increasing student achievement.
And how do I know that? Last week,
Senator Sullivan brought up a principal,
Marlyn -- I don't remember her last name --
from Frontier Elementary School in Hills-- in
Pinellas County.
She showed us state -- or test results that
with a 15 percent increase in student-teacher
contact time, she had a 30 percent increase in
student learning and student achievement. So
we know it works. We've improved it here in
Florida.
Also --
GOVERNOR BUSH: You could do that during
the afternoon though, couldn't you?
MR. NAGY: Can we do it in the --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Student contact --

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 52 March 9, 1999 MR. NAGY: -- afternoon?
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- time. I mean, if you
use the -- the calculations that you show with
comparing to other countries, they have a
shorter school day than -- than we typically
have here as well.
So is it -- is it student contact time or
making sure that kids don't unlearn what they
learned when they get off for summer?
MR. NAGY: Well, I would say that it's --
Governor, it's -- it's a little bit of both.
Student contact time, and also it's consistent
time so there's less time for people to forget
what they've -- the children forget what
they've already learned.
Another question that was brought to me
was: How are teachers going to react to this?
Teachers like working 196 days. Well, I -- I
beg to differ with individuals that talk about
that. Sulphur Springs at Hillsborough had a
low performing school. They reconstituted.
Ninety percent of the teachers left.
So they opened up an application process,
and said, would you like to come to this low
performing school? And if you do, we're going

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 53 March 9, 1999 to add two weeks to your teacher contract.
They had 500 applications for that particular
school.
Now, we're also going to make an attractive
annual salary, which is going to actually
attract a higher quality teacher. And we know
that research consistently indicates that a
high quality, effective teachers, and
student-teacher contact time are the two most
important factors in improving student
achievement of all students.
Any questions?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner.
TREASURER NELSON: Governor and --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sorry.
GOVERNOR BUSH: The other Commissioner.
TREASURER NELSON: Oh, this Commissioner.
GOVERNOR BUSH: No. You're -- you're
first.
TREASURER NELSON: Well, I just want to
commend both you and Tom Gallagher for the
discussions of -- of getting us back to what
we're supposed to be, which is a policy group,
as the State Board of Education.
And so I would direct a comment and a

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 54 March 9, 1999 question to the Board as -- not necessarily to
our presenter.
What we're talking about is -- is money, as
identified in his report, 540 million dollars.
And that would be a recurring charge each year.
Okay? You want to --
MR. NAGY: I think it's important to note
that out of that money that we were talking
about, the great majority of the money is
already there. It's just used for other
purposes.
It's used for terms and conditions of
employment, it's negotiated for longevity
raises, maybe cost of living raises, things of
that nature.
So there is an additional monetary amount
that will be needed. But it's nowhere near --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I mean, it's --
MR. NAGY: -- the rough calculations show
82 million. It may be more than that, may be
less.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's used for paying
teachers more, it's used for -- our proposal
for the Legislature is that we're expanding a
pool of money to deal with remediation.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 55 March 9, 1999 That would be -- I mean, there are other --
there are other competitive -- smaller class
sizes would directly compete with this idea.
There are a lot of good ideas out there
that relate to how to spend this incremental
money that goes beyond just the maintenance of
the existing system, I would think.
Isn't that right?
And textbooks. I mean, none of this
stuff -- your proposal, as presented here,
assuming these numbers -- I think they're a
little bit more -- the good news is they're
maybe a little bit more money.
But this proposal would take a significant
percentage of the increase in the collective
bargaining -- there wouldn't be money left for
teachers to get additional pay increases,
except for working longer. I mean, they get
more pay --
MR. NAGY: Right.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- for working longer days.
That would be the tradeoff.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This wouldn't --
MR. NAGY: Governor --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- affect

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 56 March 9, 1999 textbooks at all. That's a separate --
MR. NAGY: Governor, that's an excellent
point as far as -- but --
GOVERNOR BUSH: It does -- Tom --
excuse me. It does -- it does affect textbooks
on the ideas in the Legislature now of having a
textbook for every child, which would be
incremental new dollars to -- to fulfill that,
right?
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, your budget
and the Legislatures in the last three years
has funded 100 percent of the requests from the
districts for textbooks. And what we're
finding is --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. But --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- they're not
spending it. They're holding -- many districts
are holding it back, waiting for a new approval
of textbooks, or waiting for -- I'm not sure
what some of them are waiting for. But I'll
give them the benefit of the doubt, that's what
they're waiting for.
So --
GOVERNOR BUSH: All I know is some people
were critical of our 100 percent funding

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 57 March 9, 1999 request because they said that that didn't deal
with the deficit that existed or something.
So there are --
MR. NAGY: They're not --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It --
MR. NAGY: We have taken into account that
though, because we've -- we've taken --
86 percent of the money right now we know is
being used for salaries and benefits. And we
only brought in -- factored in the 86 percent
of that 533 million.
All the rest is used for all the other
items as far as the textbooks and things like
that. But salaries and benefits make up the
86 percent.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I do know that
Senator Sullivan is here --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- and would like
to --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Senator, do you want to --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- talk to us,
too.
TREASURER NELSON: And while he's coming
up, let me just finish the thought.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 58 March 9, 1999 I think that there's some disagreement here
as expressed as to what would -- whether or not
it's as offset as is indicated by the
presenter, that we're only talking about a net
of 82 million dollars.
And I'd like to hear some discussion as to
this, as a matter of policy, as a goal as
compared to the reduction of class size.
So --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, here's the leading
protagonist in the --
TREASURER NELSON: Do you want to --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Florida Senate on one
side of that issue.
TREASURER NELSON: Do you want to discuss
that?
This is a policy goal, as compared to the
reduction of class size, assuming that we don't
have the money to do all of the above.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, let me say that
yesterday we had some testimony from Miami and
Broward County that no matter how much money
you give them in the next few years, they will
not be able to reduce class size.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No matter how

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 59 March 9, 1999 much.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: No matter how much.
Now, if you give 100 million dollars to
Palm Beach County, they can bring first grade
down to 18 in a class. And if you translate
that statewide, the figures are astounding.
So I think that you really have to ask
yourself whether reduced class size is a viable
proposition in a state that has 1.2 billion
dollars in bonds of which they're spending it
as fast as they can, and when there's another
400 million dollars left to build more schools,
and then you throw money into class size
reduction in a time when there's a teacher
shortage, and when people are using the class
size reduction money for teacher's aides.
And so if you want 32 people in the
classroom with a teacher's aide and a teacher,
if that's your idea of a good buy with
300 million dollars, okay. But it -- in my
humble estimation, it's a bad deal.
And so I'm not a fan of class size
reduction, especially since I can't look the
people from Dade and Broward in the face and
say, we're not going to give you -- we're not

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 60 March 9, 1999 going to hold you accountable for what you do
with your share of the money. If we're just --
if we're not going to hold them accountable,
and they're using it for whatever they want,
why don't we just give it to them.
I mean, I think there's better things you
can do with your money.
TREASURER NELSON: Well, are you --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Do you have an opinion
on that, or not?
TREASURER NELSON: Does that mean that
you're in favor of this proposal as an
alternative to class size?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, I would say this:
That under some circumstances, some school
districts will be able to use class size
reduction money effectively. And I think under
some circumstances, the school districts will
make that choice.
Do I think that it is the highest and best
use if you want to get some result in
performance? No, I don't think it is the
highest and best use of the money.
But some school districts under some
circumstances might be able to use it

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 61 March 9, 1999 effectively.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's on class
size reduction you're talking about.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: That's on class size
reduction.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think
Commissioner Nelson was wondering where you are
on Wayne Nagy's presentation.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, I think that
Mr. Nagy's presentation deals with the idea of
a longer school year. But it really doesn't
get to the heart of -- there's more to this
business than just more time in school.
If you look at the opportunity to extend
the school year just as a time to keep people
there, and give them more of the same, I think
you're going to be a loser.
And if we could go back -- and let me give
you a historical background -- and I'm a little
bit nervous about this, because, you know, in
the Senate, the first time you address the
Senate, everyone gives you a hard time.
This is my first time addressing the --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you want us to give you
a hard time?

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 62 March 9, 1999 SENATOR SULLIVAN: Yeah. Sure. Why not.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We haven't gotten
to that point yet.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Okay.
TREASURER NELSON: You're so likable, we
can't give you a hard time.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, let me just tell
you where we've been, because then I think
you'll understand where we need to go.
In 1993, I got Pinellas County a planning
grant of $100,000, and they agreed to set up a
study. And what they did was they took four
schools, and they matched them: Student's
population, free lunch, all that kind of stuff.
And they said, okay, we've got three
students, identical populations, we're going to
try and create an experience to see what we
could do if we extended the school year to
210 days.
And that idea is the result of something
that happened in Polk County, the
Nabisco School, which took disadvantaged
students, kept them in school a longer time,
and those children performed at a much higher
level than anyone else in their cohort.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 63 March 9, 1999 So they came up with this. And what
happened was the teachers got together and they
planned, and they chose to have not only the
same curriculum, but a different curriculum.
And they chose to teach not only the usual
standards, but they decided they would teach it
in a different way, and they would let students
advance through the system as fast as possible.
And to make it brief, in 1994, they opened
and they set up the study, and if -- in 1999,
we finally got the results.
And as Mr. Nagy indicated -- and I don't
have a projector to show all this -- but in
every single test that they designed, the
students did better.
Okay. Now, that's just the bottom line as
far as student. Is -- in every single test,
they did better. But there were other things
that happened that -- that kind of build on
that.
First of all, the fact that the kids were
in school all year long, they developed a sense
of community. And this became their community.
GOVERNOR BUSH: When you say "all year
long," how many days -- I'm sorry?

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 64 March 9, 1999 SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, what they do is
they take a week off -- when everyone else gets
out of school in the end of May, they get a
week.
Then they come back, and they go to school
in June through about the third week in July.
Then they're off from the third week of
July up until the start of the
regular school --
GOVERNOR BUSH: So how many work -- school
days is that?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Comes to 30 days,
which --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- number then.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: -- is an additional
six weeks.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Two ten.
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's how you got to the
210.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: That's how we got to the
210.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: So that gives them time
for vacation, everything.
Well, the other thing that happened was

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 65 March 9, 1999 that when this school opened in
Pinellas County, there was a rush for the
doors, because everyone wanted in.
And when people found out that they had --
they could not stay in that school, there was a
great deal of parent -- parental
dissatisfaction, the school got a little bit
overcrowded.
But what also happened --
GOVERNOR BUSH: But moving the class sizes
don't have much to do with -- no, go ahead.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But the scores
went up. That's right.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: So -- but the -- the
thing that was striking was the parental
satisfaction was so high, and the involvement
in the school was so high, because mothers did
not have to worry about their kids all summer
long, working parents and that.
The other thing that happened was that
Pinellas County provided the teacher with
additional days of -- for teacher coordination,
preparation, development, and that. The
teachers became much more satisfied. So it was

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 66 March 9, 1999 a very successful thing.
Now, what we're proposing in the Senate
goes beyond just a 210-day school year, because
I think that if you limit yourself to
curriculum changes, and you limit yourself to
additional time, you're probably not going to
get as much as you can get for your money.
So what the Senate is proposing is that,
number one, that every school that does this,
it be -- would be a choice for the school.
Parents would have to choose it, teachers would
have to choose it, the school districts would
have to choose it.
Secondly, we are proposing that teachers --
they -- the school districts would have to sign
a contract with the teachers for a twelve-month
contract. This accomplishes several things.
First of all, it keeps your teachers there
and gives them the time in which to plan, it
gives them the time to plan with each other; it
gives them the time to do their professional
development. It makes them professionals.
And, Governor, you've been through the
schools, you know that that's one of their
requests. They want to be professionals.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 67 March 9, 1999 And how can we draw teachers into the
profession unless they are joining a profession
instead of a full-time -- a part-time job?
GOVERNOR BUSH: So, Senator, you're --
apart from the 210 school days, how many extra
days of work time --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: In exchange for the
one/sixth increase in time, they would get a
one/sixth increase in salary, and become
full-time employees.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- and --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: I have talked --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Three weeks off basically.
Or two weeks off --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: They would have -- they
would have a working day just like everyone
else in this world.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So if the average salary is
forty, they're going to get --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: One-sixth more.
GOVERNOR BUSH: One-sixth-- point one --
1.16 times the -- where's the math -- where's
the nice girl that --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, one-sixth of
forty-two would be another 7,000.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 68 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Fifty-six thousand, or
something?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Yeah. Forty-nine.
GOVERNOR BUSH: We're all --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: We're proposing that
they would -- we would also provide, just like
we did with the other schools, we give them
$100,000 to plan this, and we're proposing that
any school district that decides to do one of
these schools, that they would have to come up
with their measurement.
Now, the -- we started off -- and you
may -- the thing that started all this was we
sent a fax out to the school districts, and we
said, well, how many people are interested in
doing this. And the initial response was about
39 schools.
But right now, there are 240 schools, or
coming close, we're headed towards 10 percent
of the schools in this state are interested in
doing this.
When we had 199 schools, there were
131 elementary schools, 36 middle schools,
21 high schools, two tech centers, two
SE schools. Every one of the lab schools

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 69 March 9, 1999 wanted to do it; the Florida School for the
Deaf and Blind wants to do it; and one of the
charter schools also stepped up and said, we
want to do it.
The response has been overwhelming.
And I know I'm about to be asked how do you
fund this. And to be honest with you, when we
were talking about 40 people, it was a
different problem than when you have
240 schools now volunteering for this.
But let me tell you, in the first year, the
funding's easy. It's the second year that's
hard.
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's because you're going
to build --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: And I think that what we
really have to do is -- if we decide to do
this, I think you're going to have -- we're
going to have to make this a pilot project.
And you're going to have to go back and
require the school districts to match to see
what we're getting. And I don't think we can
do 240 schools all at once. I'm not so sure
that it's desirable to convert the whole system
over all at once.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 70 March 9, 1999 But I do think it's desirable to say, we
need some. And what that number is, we can
argue about.
But the response has been overwhelming. So
I -- the cat is kind of out of the bag, and
I think there's going to be a monkey on your
back to -- to really make an effort to -- to
make this a go.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Now --
TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: -- let me just say about
the money part of it.
Because this year -- in this year's budget,
all you have to do is fund three extra weeks.
It would be next year when the nut hits,
because now you've got to fund -- and probably
most schools will take a year to do this, so
there probably would not be any -- many
schools, if any, that would come on beyond
before a year from next fall.
And what we're proposing is that we give it
options on the -- and -- and have the dropout
prevention money -- they could use dropout
prevention money, they could use summer school

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 71 March 9, 1999 money, they can use class size reduction money,
and they can use their remediation money.
Because this is remediation, this is
dropout prevention -- and I see the Governor
gritting his teeth. But we could also use some
of the money you've given in tax breaks --
GOVERNOR BUSH: No. I -- Senator Sullivan.
TREASURER NELSON: Now you want to get a
hard time.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You've done
stepped --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Those people back in
Pinellas County I was with yesterday were
cheering me on. So --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Okay.
TREASURER NELSON: May I ask the Senator.
You're someone who understands the budget very
well, having served as Chairman of Ways and
Means.
What are we looking at in total additional
costs in the second year to go to 210 days?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: The study that was done
on the cost of the Frontier School indicated it
would be about one/sixth more. You could just
figure.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 72 March 9, 1999 In the education budget, that probably
comes to eight or nine hundred million dollars.
For -- that's -- I'm sorry. That's eight
or nine hundred million dollars for the entire
system.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: So if you decide to do
50 schools, you know, you have to go back and
calculate it for high schools, grammar schools,
all the rest of the stuff, and just figure
one-sixth more.
TREASURER NELSON: Is -- is the Senate
planning to move down this path with a -- with
a pilot study?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Yes, we are. Yes, we
are.
TREASURER NELSON: And what will your pilot
study cost?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, we have kind of
got our breath held, because the number of
schools that keep wanting to do this keeps
increasing.
And we're going to -- originally we were
just going to do anyone that wanted to try it.
But it's kind of become staggering now. There

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 73 March 9, 1999 seems to be a flood.
I mean, as of last Wednesday, which is six
days ago, and, what, four working days ago,
there were 199 schools. So between then and
now, we've picked up another 40.
And --
GOVERNOR BUSH: This won't hurt either.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Pardon?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Having our little
conversation here won't hurt you either.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: I know.
TREASURER NELSON: And on the pilot study,
is -- is that you're anticipating going to the
210 days, not just the six days, as was
suggested on the previous presentation.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, my concern with
the six days is, number one, are you going to
know where you're at four years from now or
five years from now.
Number two, with six days, can you change
the curriculum. And I believe that the
additional curriculum allows you to take
science and incorporate it into the curriculum,
it enables the teachers to take what they've
seen in art class and incorporate it in the

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 74 March 9, 1999 curriculum.
Some of our school districts are six -- six
periods a day, and they're really cramming to
get the main courses in, and this allows them
to add -- incorporate those things.
So I would -- I would rather see you go in
the direction of setting up a certain number of
schools as a pilot to -- as something that you
want to know four years from now, five years
from now. It worked in Pinellas County, but
does that mean it's going to work in other
places.
And -- so I would -- I wouldn't favor the
incremental approach.
TREASURER NELSON: Well, I want to commend
you for what -- the leadership that you've
personally taken in Pinellas doing it, which
I'm sure you had a hand in, as Chairman of the
committee that controls all the funds.
And -- and then -- one of his turkeys. But
it was a good turkey.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: It's good to be
Chairman, Mr. Commissioner.
TREASURER NELSON: I'm sure it is.
And I want to commend you in your

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 75 March 9, 1999 chairmanship now for the leadership that you're
taking --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Thank you.
TREASURER NELSON: -- because if -- if a
pilot study like this did show the marked
improvement over four years, then drill's over.
GOVERNOR BUSH: And I -- the idea of the
incremental approach won't be scientifically
based. We'll never know. I mean, there --
there the assumption is that it works, and all
we have to do is to fund it gradually over time
to get there.
Your proposal is much more -- will be much
more -- will be held to a higher standard, be
more transparent, and we'll be -- we'll be able
to know. I mean, it's much more accountable.
And that's basically my only point in all
this is my vision for this policymaking entity,
and for the Legislature, which is a partner in
making policy. And as my -- as being Governor,
it ought to be to set the standards and the
accountability measures, and have rigorous
assessments, and kind of establish what we're
expecting, and not ultimately tell school
districts and schools how to do it.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 76 March 9, 1999 We ought to have a much more flourishing
system so that these good ideas can be tried,
and so long as we have meaningful
accountability standards and people know what
the expectations are, let them -- within,
you know, certain boundaries, let them try
100 different things.
I -- I just --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's good,
except for one little problem. And I fully
agree with everything you said.
There's only one problem is that whether we
like it or not, when it gets to more time,
30 days additional is a tremendous known
pointed out fixed cost that districts can't
just do on their own. It does take --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, sure. Well, then our
job is to fund.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- put it there.
Exactly.
GOVERNOR BUSH: And this is -- education is
going to be the top priority. And how we spend
it ultimately if we have a meaningful
accountability system will -- you know, will
create a market of ideas, and -- and the best

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 77 March 9, 1999 ideas will emerge over time.
This is not going to take -- we operate on
legislative session mentalities here. But how
long -- this pilot program that you just showed
the results of was done in '93 you said?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: The school --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Started?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: -- opened in '94. The
actual grant -- actually the first discussions
occurred in '92 when I was first elected. The
proposal was given to the Legislature in '93,
they got the school off the ground in '94, and
it's five years later, and that's how long it
took.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The -- I just
would like to mention one thing is that if we
did do this pilot and we found out it worked,
we'd be 10 percent of the way funded to do it
everywhere else. Because he's talking about
10 percent of the schools that are interested
in doing it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Heck, we're 10 percent away
from funding the Everglades restoration, too,
and no one seems to be stopping --

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 78 March 9, 1999 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I guess
10 percent's better than no percent.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Exactly.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's the
90 percent I get worried about.
TREASURER NELSON: May I ask another
possible question.
How would this fit with the concerns that
we have, Senator Sullivan, about the new F-CAT
and the low scores that we're projecting on so
many of the schools in the state?
Talk that through. What does this do to
your -- your ability to measure your students'
performance in -- in F-CAT?
Are you assuming that you're going to see a
commensurate rise immediately?
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, that's what I'm
anticipating, yes.
TREASURER NELSON: Well then, in that
regard, you might well have some savings then
over the long run. Because if F-CAT does
determine that, let's say, half the schools in
the state are low performing, we're talking
about a huge amount of money being invested in
them to bring them up, or in your proposal

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 79 March 9, 1999 through vouchers to --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Opportunity scholarships.
TREASURER NELSON: -- opportunity
scholarships, then you're talking about a huge
amount of money if it suddenly applied to half
the schools in the state.
So maybe Senator Sullivan has given you a
way out.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: He's a great American.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I -- I will
tell you this: That if you all do this,
Senator Sullivan, I would recommend that you --
obviously you're not going to be able to fund
every school that has an interest at this
point, because it's in -- after -- as
Governor Bush says, after this meeting, there
might be a whole lot more, when the parents
find out about it, too, right? But to date,
the parents haven't been involved yet.
But I would suggest that we might have to
have some kind of a process by which those
schools would qualify.
And I would lean toward a process that --
to recommend that you allow us to look at those

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 80 March 9, 1999 schools that are in the most need in regards to
their scores, so that they would have the
opportunity first to grab onto this extended
day, rather than just have any school that
wanted to.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Well, I would agree that
one might prioritize in that way. But it would
be my idea that whatever you -- whatever method
you chose, that we do it with the sense that we
want to know five years from now whether it
works.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I would
definitely --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Because, you know,
it's -- this is -- once again, I want to say,
you know, I went up to this Mayerson Academy in
Cincinnati. And the thing that struck me was,
this place is a success because teachers are
given the time to get in there and take all
these courses.
We spend $260 a year on professional
development for our teachers, which is a --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- teacher --
SENATOR SULLIVAN: -- tiny, tiny amount.
And this is more than just the extra days and

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 81 March 9, 1999 the different curriculum. This is setting the
stage for teachers to have a little bit more
development, too.
So I would -- I would really like to see
it -- we can target those groups and
everything, but we must be careful to make sure
that five years from now, we know what we've
got. Because it's going to take us five or
six years.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I will tell
you this, if we did target those, and it does
work, we would see the most increase
percentage-wise than you'd find if you took the
kids that are already doing very well.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So that's why I
want to see us -- I mean, the public education
system is a -- is a system that historically
has delivered a wonderful education to those
whose parents already had one, and we have
failed those children whose parents were
already illiterate.
And so we need to aim on the -- that group
of our society that the public education system
has not done as well as it should.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 82 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Here here.
Any other conversation on this subject?
Senator, we appreciate you coming.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Thank you very much for
having me.
TREASURER NELSON: Thank you for the
discussion, Governor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: This is good.
TREASURER NELSON: Appreciate it.
SENATOR SULLIVAN: Thank you.
MR. PIERSON: Item 4, appointments to the
Education Standards Commission.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, we have
three names: Dr. John Long,
Marguerite A. Atkins, and Martha Moore Pepper.
(Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Incidentally, for
whatever it's worth, because of the Secretary
of State's Office availability of allowing this
Cabinet meeting, and all Cabinet meetings, to
be on the Internet, as well as being -- people
being able to go back and looking up past
Cabinet meetings, that I understand
Marguerite Atkins, a part of the staff at the
largest high school in the state,

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 83 March 9, 1999 Holmes Braddock, with 5,300 students, they are
on the Internet and listening to our Cabinet
meeting today.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, very good.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And I would like
to move approval for their appointments.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. PIERSON: Item 5 is 147 appointments to
the Florida District Board of Trustees, and you
have the names in your agenda packet.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion for Item 5.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
Thank you very much. I hope I'll never
have to do that again.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Oh, it's an
interesting process.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All 142 all at once I mean.

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 84 March 9, 1999 I would though, if there are anybody here
from the Commission on the Status of Women,
that 55 percent of those appointments were
women, 22 percent were African American, and
11 percent were Hispanic.
And hopefully that will set a tenor that
will continue over the course of at least my
part of this bargain of getting to appoint
people to boards and commissions.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A mirror of our
citizenship.
(The State Board of Education Agenda was
concluded.)
*

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 85 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
Administration Commission.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What happened to
Donna?
MS. TINKER: Good morning.
Recommend approval of the minutes for the
meeting held February 23, 1999.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion, Item 1.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 2, recommend approval of
transfer of general revenue appropriations for
the Department of Children and Family Services.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion, Item 2.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 3, recommend approval of
transfer of general revenue appropriations for
the Department of Children and Families.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 86 March 9, 1999 Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 4, recommend approval to
establish five positions in excess of the
number fixed by the Legislature for the
Department of Highway Safety and Motor
Vehicles, Florida Highway Patrol.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 5, recommend approval of
transfer of general revenue appropriations for
the Justice Administration Commission.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 6, recommend approval of
transfer of general revenue appropriations for
the Department of Management Services.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 87 March 9, 1999 MS. TINKER: Item 7, recommend approval of
transfer of general revenue appropriations for
the Judicial Branch Administered Funds.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Move.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MS. TINKER: Item 8, request authorization
to enter the draft final order dismissing the
petition for declaratory statement due to lack
of jurisdiction.
Governor, there are two speakers here this
morning for this item. The first speaker is
the petitioner, Helen LaCount.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning, Helen.
MS. LaCOUNT: Indeed, this is an honor to
have an opportunity to address you.
Greetings to the Governor --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you -- I'm sorry. Can
you speak up just a little bit? We have a
little mus-- background music, and -- right
into the --
Thanks.
MS. LaCOUNT: I was saying, it is, indeed,
an honor to have an opportunity to address you,

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 88 March 9, 1999 to meet the heads of the state.
Greetings to the Governor, distinguished
members of the Cabinet.
By way of introduction, I'm Helen LaCount,
a qualified lay representative based in
Hillsborough County.
I have a bachelor's degree in criminal
justice, an AA degree in police science and
administration, I have attended
Stetson College of Law seminars, I've served as
an education consultant to Bay Area Legal
Services, I've served on several boards of
directors in Hillsborough County, I am the
recipient of the Tampa-Hillsborough County
Human Rights Council Award for Outstanding
Humanitarian Services to Mankind.
I am the recipient of the Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr., Unsung Hero Award for Outstanding
Contributions to Youth Development and
Voluntary Services. I am a Vietnam era
veteran, and a former law enforcement officer.
I have a three-inch notebook of articles
denoting my advocacy over the past ten years.
I received a letter of commendation from the
NAACP general counsel for outstanding services

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 89 March 9, 1999 rendered as the education chairperson.
In addition, I served as their legal
redress chairperson.
I stand before you today seeking a
declaratory statement based on the following
facts: Said request is pursuant to 120.565(1),
Florida Statutes, which states:
Any substantially affected person may seek
a declaratory statement regarding an agency's
opinion as to the applicability of a statutory
provisions, or of any rule or order of the
agency as it applies to the petitioner's
particular set of circumstances.
Petitioner's request for declaratory
statement meets the above stated criteria.
Said request seeks to resolve questions as to
how FS 120.62(2), and 120.57, formal and
informal substantial interest hearings apply to
predisciplinary hearings; respectively,
Kelly Cannon's predisciplinary hearing.
Hillsborough County School Board is a
component of the Florida State DOE, Department
of Education, and has authority over
respondent. Thus the Commissioner of Education
is one/seventh of this body.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 90 March 9, 1999 The Administration Commission, by vested
statutory authority, grant waivers to all
agencies subject to APA, from APA, and the
Florida Administrative Code.
The question: Did respondents obtain an
exception from the Uniform Rules of Procedure,
or APA, to conduct hearings contrary to
existing law?
Substantial interest hearings are an
intricate part of the Uniform Rules of
Procedure. Certainly this body has the
authority and expertise to interpret APA, and
the Florida Administrative Code.
Particular set of circumstances:
Kelly Cannon was employed by respondent as a
Storekeeper I. On September 9th, 1997, Cannon
retained petitioner as a qualified lay
representative. Cannon was charged with policy
violation G66.21, failure to maintain
competence or legal capacity to perform duties
required by an incumbent in the classification.
An evidentiary predisciplinary hearing was
held on September 24th, 1997. Janice Valez was
the presiding officer, which is not her
supervisor, nor was this a meeting with her

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 91 March 9, 1999 immediate supervisor.
At this hearing, statements were taken, and
witnesses were heard. As a result of said
evidentiary predisciplinary hearing, Cannon was
demoted effective October 6, 1997.
On October 28th, 1997, Cannon's appeal
hearing was held. Presiding officers consisted
of Dr. David Binnie and Richard Martinez.
On November 6, 1997, Dr. David Binnie
entered into a settlement agreement with
Miss Cannon.
Now, the background to this is that on
July 7th, 1997, Dr. David Binnie solicited a
letter from Thomas Gonzalez, labor attorney for
respondent. Said letter alleged that
Hillsborough County School Board had the right
to choose the kinds of representations its
staff used. And they were only going to
allow --
Sir?
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm listening. I'm just --
MS. LaCOUNT: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: My knees are hurting.
MS. LaCOUNT: Okay.
-- and they were only going to allow union

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 92 March 9, 1999 members and attorneys to represent parties in
the District.
Now, how they thought they had the
authority to make such a decision is beyond me.
Now, they took on a second post-hoc defense
by stating that the District did not have
standards and criteria. And in the packet, I
provided you with information that showed that
that was not accurate.
Then they took on a third post-hoc defense,
which claimed that the quote, unquote,
meetings, hearings were not subject to APA.
Thus I am forced to chase one rumor, one
allegation, and one false defense after
another, which is unfair to me.
Said letter violated -- and this letter was
also adopted by the Board as their position.
Said letter violated FS 120.62(2); 120.57,
substantial interest hearings, both informal
and formal; FAC 28-106.106, which is the
governing State authority on criterion
standards for qualified lay representative; due
process clauses of the Florida Constitution and
the United States Constitution.
In addition, it was arbitrary, capricious,

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 93 March 9, 1999 and callous, all of which is expressly
prohibited by APA.
FS 120.62, Section (2) states that any
person who is compelled to appear, or who
appears voluntarily by -- before a presiding
officer or agency in an agency investigation,
or agency proceeding, has the right to be
accompanied, represented, and advised by
counsel, and by other qualified lay
representatives.
Pursuant to the Florida Administrative
Practice, Chapter 11, substantial interest,
cases under APA have been given broad
interpretations of the substantive interest
test for applicability of Section 120.57.
The First District Court of Appeals has
stated that substantial interest contemplates
rights more --
(Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
MS. LaCOUNT: -- expansive than those
afforded by predecessor Statute 120.22 --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead.
MS. LaCOUNT: -- and by the due process
clause of the Constitution.
The example given is a teacher and a

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 94 March 9, 1999 School Board's adoption of a reorganization
plan, which among other matters, abolish the
teacher's position.
And the second example is that teachers who
allege that the school superintendent have
failed to carry out the statute and the
School Board policy regarding periodic
evaluation of teachers.
Certainly the argument could be made that
if a teacher's interest is -- in a
reorganization plan is subject to 120.57,
substantial interest, an interest of one's
disciplinary proceedings are also subject to
APA.
Then there is another example that was
included in the packet that gave an example of
where -- when school boards are -- it states
that school boards are covered by the APA, at
least when performing quasi-judicial functions,
such as imposing discipline against teachers.
And then I have here two books that are
union contracts which also states: And define
what a predisciplinary hearing is. And it,
in fact, describes it as an evidentiary
hearing.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 95 March 9, 1999 There's another passage that also states
that anytime management schedules a meeting
hearing with an employee and has reason to
believe that disciplinary actions may result,
the administrator shall inform the employee the
right to union representation and, of course,
that equals out to qualified lay
representatives.
And since I was given this note that I'm
timed here, I will cut this short and conclude
by saying that I have been adversely affected
tremendously by arbitrary, capricious, and
callous actions of a District, who is
responsible for their actions, as they hold
their staff accountable for their actions, as
they hold their students accountable for their
actions.
We're in excess of two years now over this
issue. And certainly there are people with
information -- specific information that will
denote that, in fact, their actions are
contrary to the Uniform Rules of Procedure, as
David Schwartz provided a letter over the issue
of standards and criteria prior.
And I seek that declaratory statement. It

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 96 March 9, 1999 is no different than the statement that have
previously been rendered in terms of whether or
not they are violating the Uniform Rules of
Procedure. They are conducting hearings
outside of that.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
MS. TINKER: The next speaker is
Arnold Corsmeier, representing the
Hillsborough County School Board.
MR. CORSMEIER: Good morning,
Governor Bush, members of the Cabinet.
I'll be brief, because I believe that the
Commission's draft recommended final order that
you have before you sets out the -- the issues
well and sets out why the petition should be
denied -- well.
And the primary reason that -- I believe
that the Commission put for denying the
petition is a -- is a lack of jurisdiction.
And that is based on -- that this statute,
upon which Ms. LaCount bases her petition, is
intended for people to come before the agency
before which they are affected, which in this
case is the Hillsborough County School Board,
and not some other agency, to get a

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 97 March 9, 1999 determination about whether -- how a rule
applies to them, or -- or interpretation of
that rule.
And so it's the School Board's position in
this case to make that determination. You
should know that Ms. LaCount's filed such
petition with the Hillsborough County School
Board, an almost identical petition to the
petition that's before you.
And that basically has been denied by the
School Board for this reason: The two
different state courts -- two different state
court judges -- the same state court in Tampa,
the Thirteen Circuit in Tampa -- have ruled on
the issues that Ms. LaCount is attempting to
bring before you today.
And that -- my -- my main point that I want
to make on behalf of the School Board is that
Ms. LaCount has had a full and fair opportunity
to have these issues determined by a -- more
than one state judge. She has an appeal
pending currently before the Second District
Court of Appeal on these issues, and she has
been heard on this.
You are the -- merely the latest forum in

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 98 March 9, 1999 which she's attempted to prevail on an issue
that she is -- has lost in other contexts, in
other courts, in other forums.
And you should also be aware that this is a
very narrow issue. Ms. LaCount contends that
she should be able to represent employees in
pre-- what are called predisciplinary hearings
with employee -- administrative employees of
the School Board.
The School Board does not contend that
employees don't have a right to full
representation at full-blown evidentiary
hearings where a discharge or other
disciplinary matter is being considered.
And unless there are any questions, I'll
end it there.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. CORSMEIER: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, this
truly -- the county School Districts are
constitutional bodies, as are we. And we
aren't in a position to take a side on this
one, where the other -- especially with the
fact that it has gone through the court system
and it is now in appeal in that court system.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 99 March 9, 1999 So for us to even -- if we had authority,
which we don't, to get involved in this,
would -- would be wrong.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a recommendation?
MS. TINKER: Yes, sir.
I request authorization to enter the draft
final order dismissing the petition for lack of
jurisdiction.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move it.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved and
seconded.
All in favor.
THE CABINET: Aye.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's approved.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for coming.
MS. TINKER: Item 9 is the issue relating
to the Florida Keys area of Critical State
Concern.
The staff recommendation has several
components. And what I'd like to do is present
that recommendation to you, and then we have
several speakers.
And, Governor, I've asked the folks to

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 100 March 9, 1999 limit their remarks so that we can kind of move
through this as timely as possible.
GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- are you limiting,
like, remarks to -- to any particular time that
I can maybe enforce, or --
MS. TINKER: Maybe a couple minutes per
person.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Good.
MS. TINKER: The staff recommendation is to
extend the area of Critical State Concern
designation for the Florida Keys for the next
year; determine that substantial progress
toward the overall objectives of the work
program has not been achieved; initiate rule
making to amend the Monroe County
Comprehensive Plan, and the Village of
Islamorada Comprehensive Plan; to reduce the
total number of residential units that could be
developed over the next 20 -- I'm sorry -- over
the next year by 20 percent.
We also recommended, Governor, that
sanctions not be imposed against Monroe County
or the Village at this time. However, we
recommend that the Commission retain
jurisdiction to look at the need for sanctions

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 101 March 9, 1999 at some future time if you determine that that
would be appropriate.
We're also recommending that you adopt a
resolution supporting Federal legislation
designed to provide financial assistance to
assist with the restoration efforts in the
Keys; and to specifically seek dollars from the
Federal government for the Federal fiscal year
2000 budget.
And last, we're recommending adoption of a
resolution supporting State legislation to
establish adequate standards for wastewater
treatment facilities in Monroe County.
The first speaker is Secretary
Steve Seibert from the Department of
Community Affairs. As Secretary Seibert's
coming up, I was handed this morning a package
that Representative Sorensen has asked me to
distribute to you. So while the Secretary's
speaking, I'll pass these out to you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Nelson, you --
TREASURER NELSON: Yes. For clarification,
I did not hear in there any statement with
regard to a toll facility. Is that off the
table now?

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 102 March 9, 1999 MS. TINKER: Yes, sir. We withdrew that
this morning.
TREASURER NELSON: All right. And why --
what would replace that toll revenue for the
local government in this kind of package?
MS. TINKER: We don't have a replacement
right now. The -- the toll, we felt was a good
source of revenue. We will pursue looking at
the toll issue, we'll do the cost benefit
analysis, and try to determine what a toll
might generate. We'll look at the impact of
that toll on tourism, and we'll try to proceed
down a different path in terms of the toll.
We -- we are trying to go after Federal
dollars still, Treasurer Nelson. And
Commissioner Williams from Monroe County will
speak to that issue a little bit this morning.
She has been in Washington on several occasions
recently talking with our members of Congress
and Senate there. And there are also some
initiatives at the local level for funding
possibilities.
The Governor has included in his budget
recommendations to the Legislature for the next
fiscal year, 1.7 million dollars, and also has

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 103 March 9, 1999 supported a supplement to that. That would
bring that total up to about 3 million dollars
of general revenue for the next fiscal year for
Monroe County.
TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
MR. SEIBERT: Good morning.
Governor, distinguished members of the
Cabinet, I'm Steve Seibert. I'm the Secretary
of the Department of Community Affairs.
We urge you to adopt the recommendations as
they have been presented to you by Ms. Tinker.
As most of you know, the five-year work
program is the torrid of solving the problems
in the Keys. It was adopted by rule by the
Governor and Cabinet in December of 1996, and
was later made part of the Monroe County
Comprehensive Plan.
The work program was the result, frankly,
of litigation, and dealt with specific findings
of the administrative law judge. It sets forth
specific projects for each year. And its
primary purpose is to deal with water quality
issues and habitat protection issues.
Each year we are obligated to come to you

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 104 March 9, 1999 with recommendations as to whether substantial
progress on that workplan has occurred; and
secondly, whether the area of Critical State
Concern designation should be continued.
Substantial progress on the plan was
completed during the first year. But as you
see in your package, by the incomplete projects
that are listed, substantial progress, in our
opinion, has not been made in the second year.
Now, if you find that that is the case,
then your own rules tell you that the new
residential units that would be allowed to be
built must be reduced by at least 20 percent.
And that's why your recommendation in the
package is for a total unit amount to be
reduced by that 20 percent down to 204 total
units.
We do believe that the area of Critical
State Concern designation is still appropriate.
As a side opinion, I will tell you that it
would be my greatest joy, while I serve as
Secretary of the Department of Community
Affairs, someday to come to you and tell you
that that designation is no longer appropriate
because the problems are being solved. That

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 105 March 9, 1999 day is not --
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's our objective.
MR. SEIBERT: That is our objective. There
are other places --
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's how we measure your
performance.
MR. SEIBERT: What's that?
Yes, sir.
Today, we're asking you to deal with a
couple of fairly complex issues. The first is
to adopt a resolution to allow us to initiate
rulemaking. That is to allow us to go into the
community, hold informal meetings, engage the
community into discussion, have public
hearings.
And our hope is to make better, to make
more realistic, and to make more effective that
five-year work program. And, Governor, I
understand your time, but I will very quickly
go through some of the key elements to that
that Teresa did not mention.
It would include elongating the time frames
for the completion of some of the studies. We
just can't get there in the time frames that
have already been established. So we're going

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 106 March 9, 1999 to allow some more time.
It would suspend -- this is important. It
would suspend enforcement of some of the
cesspit replacements until the wastewater
studies are done. The one thing you don't want
to do is require a citizen to go in and remove
the cesspit, at great expense, put in a septic
tank; and then two years later, have to pay the
great expense of tying into a central sewer
system.
So we're kind of holding back on that a
little bit until we can deal with the bigger
question.
We're trying to refocus some of the
scientific efforts to improve wastewater
treatment right now from all individuals to
really focus on what's called the hot spots,
those areas where there is -- there is nutrient
loading, for example, particularly inshore.
We would guarantee some absolute number of
permits that would be able to be issued by the
local governments, getting you somewhat past
that taking law question, and to give some
breathing room.
And we are asking for some standards, both

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 107 March 9, 1999 by rule and by legislation, some water
treatment -- wastewater treatment standards
that will make them more equitable, and more
attainable.
Frankly, the standards for septic tanks are
virtually unattainable for folks that live in
the Keys. So we'd be kind of lowering that
level, but yet at the same time raising the
level of the large treatment plants.
And I just heard this morning a new concept
that although we don't have wording for, we
would like to at least have considered during
the rulemaking process -- and that is if,
indeed, progress is made and you all find that
there is substantial progress on these
programs, that that number -- that 20 percent
reduction we're recommending, would go back up,
because the -- the rules of the law and of your
requirements actually have been met.
As Teresa said, we're seeking your adoption
of the resolution to Congress, looking for some
financial assistance. And that is the nut of
this very complex issue.
I would ask -- I would suggest, as I'm
trying to understand this, that this

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 108 March 9, 1999 ambition -- ambitious program by no means deals
with all of the very difficult issues facing
the Keys. And we are committed to dealing with
this in concert with the other State agencies;
and more importantly, with that local
community. And Commissioner from -- Williams
is here today to talk to the local community's
view of all of this.
Thank you, Governor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Steve.
MS. TINKER: I'm going to go ahead and call
the next two or three speakers so they can be
waiting and we won't waste time with people
coming up.
The next speaker is Steve Helfman, and he
is representing the Village of Islamorada.
He'll be followed by Chris Schrader, and then
Tom Sawyer.
MR. HELFMAN: Good morning, Governor,
members of the Commission.
Steve Helfman. I'm the attorney for the
Village of Islamorada, which is, as most of you
know, a newly incorporated city, municipality
in the upper Keys within Monroe County. The --
the Village was incorporated in December of

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 109 March 9, 1999 1997.
They have a Comprehensive Plan. It happens
to be those applicable provisions of the
Monroe County plan that were in effect on the
date that the Village of Islamorada was
incorporated.
While we think that that plan is
appropriate to carry us through to our own
comprehensive plan, which is due in about a
year-and-a-half, we also feel that any rule
that you would seek --
(Secretary Harris exited the room.)
MR. HELFMAN: -- to adopt would be
appropriate, so long as it is tailored for our
particular community.
The draft rule attempts to do that, and is
making progress towards that. But it still is
broad in its scope, because it really is a
product of trying to plug in the name of the
Village into a rule that is drafted for the
greater county.
But we're prepared to work with your
staff -- Teresa's been terrific -- and move
forward, and come up with some interim
regulations that can control the development

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 110 March 9, 1999 into our own comprehensive plan.
And just so you know, you're -- you're
dealing with a very responsible government
which has, on its own, recently adopted a total
moratorium on any further development, other
than that that is in the pipeline when we
incorporated.
But otherwise there's a complete moratorium
on any further development until we have our
own comprehensive plan in place.
We appreciate the time in being here. We
hope that we can develop a rule with your staff
and bring it back to you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. HELFMAN: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
MR. SCHRADER: Good morning, gentlemen.
My name is Chris Schrader. My education is
in biology by background, Marquette University.
I've lived in the Florida Keys since 1971. And
I've been involved with water quality -- and
matter of fact, I was -- I was -- I sat on the
first water quality committee that was ever --
ever organized in Monroe County.
I currently sit on the Technical Advisory

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 111 March 9, 1999 Committee to the National Marine Sanctuary.
I've been present for a lot of the history of
what's happened in the Keys.
I own a company that specializes in the
operation of small wastewater treatment plants
known as package plants. Okay? And we've been
doing that for 28 years.
Early on in the game --
(Secretary Harris entered the room.)
MR. SCHRADER: -- with water quality
committees, the issue of nutrients having an
effect on the environment was brought up and
was pushed very heavily by environmental
advocates.
It is important to note -- it is important
to note that to that date, no State agency or
Federal agency had ever voiced any concern
about the effects of nutrients on the -- on the
waters around Monroe County. This was a -- not
a new idea in biology, but this was a new idea
as it pertained to our particular area.
The science brought to bear on the effects
of sewage treatment produced nutrients came
from very limited sources, very few people, for
years. The general understanding of the public

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 112 March 9, 1999 was, and still is, that the entire ecosystem
was threatened.
By far, the greatest threat was perceived
to be the damage nutrients were doing to the
reef, our most precious asset.
One legal action within the last
year-and-a-half known as Abbott versus
Chiles --
(Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.)
MR. SCHRADER: -- brought more science to
light in a few months than all the previous
discussions and years of water quality
committees.
This information came from people with
expertise in coastal and ocean engineering and
hydrographics, physical oceanography, marine
biology, biologic oceanography, chemical
oceanography, and statistical analysis.
And there were some very interesting things
that came out of these hearings. And I'd ask
you to pay close attention.
The evidence presented indicated that
nutrients discharged from Keys' wastewater
practices were unlikely to be degrading
Florida Bay or the coral reef tract.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 113 March 9, 1999 Unnaturally elevated levels of nutrients
had not been found in the studies of Keys'
water. No evidence was found of alarming rates
of loss of sea grass in Keys' waters. The
small volumes of sewage produced in the Keys
are rapidly diluted to background levels if,
in fact, they enter the surface waters.
Statistical examination of existing data
does not show that significant levels of
nutrients are being exported from the canals to
nearshore waters.
Nutrient levels of the waters flowing
through the Keys do not represent thresholds of
degradation, as previously claimed, but are
actually baseline of naturally occurring
levels.
And that was quite a mouthful. But I don't
think the public ever heard that, and I don't
know if y'all ever heard that.
It was good news. Unfortunately Abbott
versus Chiles did not question the nutrient
scenario with the canals and the nearshore
waters. The shorelines, basically.
Scientific knowledge is very scarce in
telling us how much these waters are affected

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 114 March 9, 1999 by sewage nutrients. We don't know what
portion of the nutrients in the system come
from sewage practices, as opposed to other
sources of nutrients, which are considerable;
probably be the largest contributor being the
thousands and thousands of tons of weedrack
that blows up along the shorelines and into the
canals every year.
It is important to have a better scientific
basis to support or not the land use plan's
premature requirement for nutrient removal and
sewage treatment. This is particularly true of
the new package plant requirements, the
effluent standards being proposed in this -- in
this bill -- contained in -- and I don't call
it a bill -- a document. Whatever we call it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Rule.
MR. SCHRADER: The key to good package
plant operation is simplicity, and the DEP
rules and regs actually say that. For small
plants, keep it as simple as you can.
Attempted nutrient removal is the -- as --
as far as you can get from simplicity in a
10,000 gallon per day package plant.
Okay. I give you cost benefit questions.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 115 March 9, 1999 If you were to take the reduction that this
rule would achieve by doing all these extra
processes on the sewage plant in the northern
Keys, the upper Keys, from Key -- from
Ocean Reef to the end of Long Key, which is
about a 70-mile run, you would save about
200 pounds of nitrogen a day.
So it's just -- kind of picture getting in
your boat, and go all the way down
Longshore Line from Ocean Reef, all the way
along Long Key and back up again, you're going
to be distributing 1.4 pounds of nitrogen per
mile, and we haven't gone into the bays and the
canals yet.
Now, how much money is that worth,
gentlemen?
With -- we could do the same example with
phosphorus, and it would be even less.
Also there is encouraging results from
sanctuary funding, which is now only beginning
to trickle in. But we have particular
information now that we've had on the table for
about six months that the core rock is greedily
absorbing phosphorus.
Our -- our treated waters go into boreholes

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 116 March 9, 1999 in the ground, and it percs out through the
boreholes wherever it's going to go. And the
indication that we have at this point -- every
indication is that that -- that ground strata
are taking the phosphorus out.
So -- and understand that phosphorus is the
limiting nutrient in the immediate vicinity of
the islands, which means that phosphorus is the
one you've really got to get out. It's -- it's
called the limiting nutrient.
It may be that our package plants to date
operating with properly constructed Class V
injection wells -- which is just jargon, but
what we've got -- have already been removing
nutrients, if, in fact, the nutrients were that
important to begin with.
Also studies at -- at Key Colony Beach
indicate -- and that's a big plant --
probably -- I mean, big, relative term,
two hundred to three hundred thousand gallons a
day -- indicate that what does perc to the
adjacent canals is diluted in the neighborhood
of one hundred million to one.
So this -- there's -- there's science that
needs to be done here. Since nutrient removal

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 117 March 9, 1999 is the most expensive part of the sewage
solutions, the science is very important.
A cesspit cannot be replaced with a septic
tank, which would be cost effective. Instead
it needs an $18,000 aerobic treatment unit,
with additional nutrient stripping -- stripping
capabilities -- this is on an individual
home -- which has to be individually
engineered, just like the structure of this
building, by a professional engineer.
And package plants are going to be required
to remove nutrients. This is -- this is
questionable at best. In their studies, the
engineers had to go far afield to find about
20 examples of this technology in the entire
country --
I'm almost done, gentlemen.
-- about 20 examples of this technology in
the entire country. And the operators around
the state of Florida are chuckling, wondering
how we're going to really achieve this.
Simplicity is the key, and small plants
cannot afford. They have men in white coats
with a laboratory at every location. Okay?
It is my opinion after ten plus years

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 118 March 9, 1999 participating in, and observing the proceedings
of various Keys water quality committees, that
the science available to address the remaining
sewage related water quality issues is
insufficient and leading to -- to flawed
conclusions.
Thank you very much. And if you have any
questions.
I -- I don't know what you're going to do
with this today. I did -- I do have a -- a
more comprehensive report here, which I'm going
to give to the proper person. And --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. SCHRADER: -- and I just ask that you
consider it.
Thank you, gentlemen.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
Thanks for coming.
MR. SAWYER: Good morning.
GOVERNOR BUSH: You got it. Still morning.
MR. SAWYER: Governor and members of the
Cabinet, my name is Tom Sawyer. I'm a lifelong
resident of the Keys and Key West; and one of
the endangered species, the conch.
GOVERNOR BUSH: You got all dressed up for

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 119 March 9, 1999 us though today.
MR. SAWYER: I sure did. Put on my tie.
Even got up early this morning.
This issue that we're talking about started
some 27 years ago when I was a much younger man
and didn't have any white on my temples. And
the real issue here is water quality. And
I think we'll all agree with that.
When I first ran for Mayor of Key West in
'85, that was my big issue, and it was
difficult to get anybody to talk about it. But
we built a sewer treatment plant.
And one of the things that I support is
what the Secretary has asked for, is to getting
some Federal assistance. Because at that time,
the Federal government paid 80 percent of that
cost; and the State 10 percent; and the City
held up for the other 10 percent.
There was a breath of fresh air to hear
Secretary Seibert speak earlier, and I think a
change has come about. And I think we'll all
agree that common sense needs to prevail.
Do we want a county that only the wealthy
can afford? I don't believe so. I wouldn't be
able to live there. A number of my friends

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 120 March 9, 1999 would not be able to live there.
I came really earlier to address an issue
that had been taken off the table, and that was
the toll. And when that issue does come up, I
hope we have the opportunity to speak on that,
because one thing I do not want to see is
another tax imposed on the people that work and
live in the Keys.
Because as you all well know, that's the
highest cost of living in the state of
Florida, and that's something we don't like to
brag about, but is a fact.
Twenty-seven years ago this all began. And
way back then, I still remember as a young
member of the Jaycees, and some of you remember
that, too, we thought it was going to take a
very short period of time to solve. And it
hasn't been solved.
And your comment earlier, you're right,
you're the man with the hammer, and you can
govern with the rules. And I hope that rule
will soon go away, because if everybody does
what they're supposed to do, and that's one
thing we all want to work towards.
I support the Secretary, and the comments

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 121 March 9, 1999 that he made today, and the desire to give
Monroe County back its equal representation of
being able to govern among its own citizens.
And anything I can do to support that
effort, and whether it be -- maybe we might
have an insight to the Federal level here in a
couple of years. Anything we can do there, if
I can help, please let me know. We'd like to
get it solved quickly.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Sawyer.
MR. SAWYER: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's good seeing you.
MR. SAWYER: Thank you.
MS. TINKER: The next group of speakers
are --
(Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
MS. TINKER: -- John Dolan-Heitlinger,
followed by Jose Gonzalez, followed by
Commissioner Mary Kay Reich.
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: Governor, good
morning, still. Nice to see you again.
Members of the Cabinet, thank you very much
for this opportunity to address you today.
My name is John Dolan-Heitlinger. I'm the
President of the Key West Chamber of Commerce.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 122 March 9, 1999 In the Keys, we now sense a new breeze
blowing from Tallahassee. And I must tell you,
it is one that we think is going to be more
supportive of local decision making, and we
find that breeze refreshing, and thank you.
The rule before you reduces the number of
building permits that can be issued in
Monroe County. We have some serious concerns
about this proposal.
First, it exacerbates a major problem we
have with a shortage in affordable housing.
The storm hurt us, it took away some of the
housing we had. This makes it all that much
more difficult to build housing that is
affordable.
Second, it increases the cost of housing,
and that burden falls not on the wealthy, but
on those few lower and middle income folks --
(Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: -- who still have a
shot at building a home.
GOVERNOR BUSH: How --
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: It --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- does it --
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: -- restricts their

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 123 March 9, 1999 ability.
GOVERNOR BUSH: How does it --
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: Because it raises
the price. And just quickly if I can explain.
In order to build a house in Monroe County,
you have to have points to get a building
permit. In order to get those points, you have
to have normal things, like in a platted
neighborhood, you get a point for that.
But now, you have to buy pieces of property
and donate them to the County. For each piece
of property you buy and donate to the County,
you get an additional point.
If you also --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Explain --
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: -- take out
somebody's cesspit, you get another point.
That kind of thing obviously adds
tremendously to the cost of building a home.
As you limit the number of houses to be built,
that increases the cost again.
Third, the relationship between building
permits and cesspit reduction, I think, is a
tenuous relationship at best. Even if there
were no permits issued in the next year or two,

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 124 March 9, 1999 that would still not address the cesspit
problem. We've got a problem obviously I
think --
(Attorney General Butterworth exited the
room.)
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: -- with some
cesspits that need to come out.
Whatever the science is, I feel -- still
think needs to be decided. But I think most of
us recognize that that's generally not a good
way to handle sewage.
But the relationship between building
permits for new homes, which are state of the
art, and are actually required to be state of
the art; and cesspit reduction is one that has
been fabricated.
And what we are interested in doing, as
I believe Tom Sawyer made clear, is addressing
this problem and figuring out a way to do that.
And I really question as to whether or not
restricting the number of building permits is
the way to do that.
If the decision is made to reduce the
number of buildable units temporarily for the
next couple of years until we can address some

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 125 March 9, 1999 of the hot spots --
And by the way, I should say something
right now. Having been a Keys resident for a
little short of eight years, DCA is not
generally initials that people rejoice about.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Really?
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: We are --
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's going to be better now
though.
MR. DOLAN-HEITLINGER: Well, it is. And
I -- I'd like to say a compliment, that we are
pleased to hear the openness to consider some
working with the Keys community to find a
workable solution. That is a very genuine
compliment.
We want to make sure that if we have a
reduction in units now in the next year, that
when we come into compliance, we get them back.
We want to make sure that we can then build
those later on.
And I think it's very important that if
we're going to go back to our constituents and
say, okay, listen, we've got a problem, we've
got to fix it, we agreed to do this, we've got
to do it, we get the permits back when we do

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 126 March 9, 1999 what we're supposed to do.
And I would hope that that would be part of
your -- your recommendation.
Thank you very much.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GONZALEZ: Good morning, Governor,
Cabinet.
My name is Jose Gonzalez. And being Cuban,
I've never known a Cuban to limit his comments
to 2 minutes, but we will certainly --
GOVERNOR BUSH: You can do it.
MR. GONZALEZ: -- give it a shot this
morning.
GOVERNOR BUSH: You're the man.
MR. GONZALEZ: I would be remiss, Governor,
if I didn't just simply say thank you last year
for visiting us down in Key West. As a member
of the Salvation Army board, they -- knowing I
was coming, but extending their
congratulations. We're glad to see you in the
seat that you have today.
Very briefly, a lot of comments have been
made by some of my fellow residents.
I'm a member of the Board of Directors of
Chamber of Commerce, former president of the

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 127 March 9, 1999 Chamber. And I also served as chairman -- for
five out of the ten years I served as chairman
of the Land Authority Advisory Committee for
Monroe County. So I'm working on both sides of
the equation.
Being an architect, I'm also privy to the
whole issue of how we deal with construction
and some of the dilemmas that our residents
face.
I'd like to give you something very briefly
on the big picture here. And this is -- you
as -- with a new administration, need to think
of -- along the lines of the big picture.
We are clearly aware of the inability that
Monroe County has had in, frankly, solving its
problems. But you have to think about what
Monroe County is. It's a 100 mile-long county,
which totally has a population of over -- just
over 80,000 people. That's not a very big
county to solve some fairly significant
problems.
And we have been tasked, and you've heard,
that, yes, we've not been able to perform.
And, frankly, I don't know that anyone could
have been able to perform.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 128 March 9, 1999 And so, therefore, we are caught in our own
trap that we have created. We have agreed to
in previous -- and I've stood before Governor
and Cabinets in the past here, on issues in the
Keys. Basically we can't do what you ask us to
do, because you couldn't do what you've asked
us to do.
And so, as you look at these rules and
other rules that will come down -- down the
road, I want you to think about the fact that
we have our 80,000 people. And whether we --
and one of our speakers said, if we reduce the
units to zero, if we had no more growth in
Monroe County, does that solve the problem?
Can we raise the money within our
population?
Think about that. The unincorporated areas
are only about 50,000 people. Can we raise the
so-called billion dollar price tag that it's
going to take to solve the problems that have
been indicated -- or the problems and issues of
Monroe County?
We can't. And you cannot burden the poor
working individual in Monroe County, the person
who all he worries about is getting up in the

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 129 March 9, 1999 morning and going to work.
You can't burden that person. And
unfortunately they're not here to talk to these
rules. They don't even understand these rules.
They just know that they can't build their
home, that there's committees being formed for
affordable housing, of which the Secretary and
DCA has -- has instructed his own staff, hey,
go ahead and work with the County on affordable
housing.
Hold it, folks. How can we worry about
affordable housing? We can't build any
housing, because we, on the other side, are
limiting our units.
We have to take -- stand back from
Monroe County. And in -- and in this rule, and
in others in the future, and say, hey, are we
really helping them solve it? Or are we just
simply tying them up and leaving them alone and
saying, hey, you've got a problem.
I would urge you in this rule, for now,
because this rule has gone so far along, to,
okay, adopt it. But promise to the people of
Monroe County that if they do what they're
told, at least in this component, that you'll

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 130 March 9, 1999 help them, that you'll give it back to them.
But also stand back in the future and say,
hey, in order for them to solve the problems,
they're not going to solve it themselves. They
can't. The people of Monroe County cannot
solve it.
I thank you for your time, and we welcome
you again in the Keys whenever you can.
Thank you for --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think your point is -- is
an excellent one about the fact that there
needs to be shared responsibility in this
regard. And it's right on target.
And hopefully our budget recommendation
is -- is a -- an example of that commitment,
and there's more to come to make -- to make
this work. There's -- it's a -- it's a very
good point.
Commissioner.
Is he hogging the spot?
MS. REICH: I'll share -- I'll share with
Jose. That's okay. Not a problem.
Good morning.
I'm sorry. Good afternoon.
My name is Mary Kay Reich. I'm a

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 131 March 9, 1999 County Commissioner from Monroe County,
Florida.
And I'm just here to ask for your help,
that you help us do what you want us to do
without all the threats, without all the
letters panicking my people. Because I sit
every day and listen to their --
They're afraid the minute they get a notice
to remove or replace a cesspit that they're
going to lose their home. This is the
conception. This is not what the letter said.
I have read the letters over and over. I
understand what it says. Obviously they don't.
And, of course, there's -- we have a thing
called the Coconut Telegraph which gets --
(Attorney General Butterworth entered the
room.)
MS. REICH: -- word through. Newspapers
look at it to make sure they've got their --
their editorials right.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Coconut Telegraph.
MS. REICH: But this is neither here nor
there. These people are panicking. And it's
my job to help them. And that's why I'm here.
Also Mr. Bill Smith, who was head of the

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 132 March 9, 1999 contractors association, asked me if I would
relay his remarks simply because he is still
from Hurricane Georges without a home, and most
of his stuff in storage. And he felt that he
couldn't -- he couldn't even find a suit so
that he could come up here today and address
you people. So this is part of our problems.
But I'd like to not take any more time, and
just read you his letter.
The construction industry is in a panic.
ROGO awards have been reduced to practically
zero for the year. Contractors are in
desperate need to get permits in order to
remain in business in the Florida Keys.
Some contractors only build one or two
homes a year, but they're the high end
products, and they -- but they service as many
as 50 families.
Our very highly respected contractors used
to employ 7-- a highly respected contractor
used to employ 75 people. He's now down to 12.
The rest of them can't find a place to live.
Small contractors are even worse off. The
State warned, not only by the FKCA, but by an
economic report produced by a professor from

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 133 March 9, 1999 Florida Atlantic University. He was
commissioned by the County to produce the study
with matching funds from the State.
He concluded that the industry would be
destroyed if the 255 was continued to be
reduced in the Keys.
Our work force is so depleted that we
cannot satisfactorily service our community due
to Hurricane Georges and Mitch.
And I will tell you that I had substantial
damage to my home. I had -- they began work on
the inside last week. That hit in
September 25th of 1998.
The FKCA have participated in the process
with an honest effort to solve the problem that
faced the Keys, but we have not accomplished
that.
In 1991 and '92, we entered into an
honorable agreement -- and this was taken
from -- there were people from every area
represented in this as far as the industry was
concerned, and several very good people from
the State and the Federal government.
And we entered into an honorable agreement
to accept a reduction from over 900 building

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 134 March 9, 1999 permits, to 255 single family homes to be built
annually until the year 2002. We haven't
accomplished this. It's just -- it's just not
working.
And the basic reason it's not working is
the septic tank -- we have people sitting --
the County's ready to issue the permits. They
can't get them because of the septic tank.
I realize it's being addressed. I would
ask that it -- that you -- you sincerely
address this, and please just help us.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
TREASURER NELSON: May -- Governor, may
I --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
TREASURER NELSON: -- ask: To what degree
is there unanimity on the County Commission
with regard to this revision?
MS. REICH: With regard to helping people
in Monroe County?
I would have to think it was unanimous.
TREASURER NELSON: No, no, no. I'm talking
about the specifics of what's before us today.
MS. REICH: I don't know, sir. I just

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 135 March 9, 1999 found out what was before you today, day before
yesterday.
GOVERNOR BUSH: How many -- how many homes
were built last year?
MS. REICH: There was 143 permits issued
last year.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- I mean, we -- we
imposed a -- a limit --
MS. REICH: Moratorium.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- of 255, and -- and there
were a hundred and --
MS. REICH: Because the rest are sitting
there, but they can't get them because of the
cesspit thing.
And -- and our State Leg--
GOVERNOR BUSH: So the -- this rule though,
in essence, is not the reason why homes aren't
being built. There are other reasons that are
stymieing -- I mean, because if that was the
case, this rule would allow for 255 units to be
built, and 140 were built last year.
Am I missing --
MS. REICH: Only because --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- something?
MS. REICH: -- they couldn't get the

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 136 March 9, 1999 cesspit requirement. They -- they --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
MS. REICH: -- they got their points,
they --
GOVERNOR BUSH: So --
MS. REICH: -- got everything else except
that.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess that's another
rule.
MS. REICH: Yeah. I know. Another rule.
I would just tell you that our -- our State
Legislature, Representative Sorensen, and --
and Senator Jones put together a very, very
good task force to -- to look at affordable
housing. They're going to do their
presentation to the Commission on Thursday.
But the draft that I read of it, they have
identified between two hundred -- 2,500, and
3,000 units that were either destroyed,
substantially destroyed, or uninhabitable
because of the hurricane. And we haven't
addressed that one yet either.
Thank you.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: May -- may I ask a
question, please?

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 137 March 9, 1999 MS. REICH: Sorry.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Of the 143 that were
built, how many were, quote, unquote,
affordable housing?
MS. REICH: I -- that I can't tell you,
sir. I didn't think to ask. I would be --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Zero. I --
MS. REICH: -- happy to --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I know what the
answer is. It's --
MS. REICH: Yeah. Probably.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
MS. REICH: Probably.
We have a -- a project in Key Largo, as I
understand it, ready to go, just waiting for --
and that's, I believe, 45 affordable housing
units.
But I -- those figures are just what I can
remember. I'll be happy to get you the exact
figures and send them.
MS. TINKER: I would like to add that the
rule changes that are being proposed today will
provide some flexibility for the contractors.
It provides a certain number of units up front
for development with nutrient offset occurring

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 138 March 9, 1999 throughout the year with funds that have been
made available through the State over the last
couple of years, and some local matching
dollars to add to those.
Additionally, through the rulemaking
process, we're going to look at ways of
providing credits in addition to cesspit
replacement. For example, if you upgrade
package plants to a higher better standard, you
might get credits for that. And we have
conceptual buy-in to that idea, but we need to
work out the language.
So we do expect the rulemaking process to
provide some additional flexibility to new
development.
The next speakers are Charles Pattison,
Executive Director of 1000 Friends of Florida;
Debbie Harrison, representing the World
Wildlife Fund; and Richard Grosso, representing
several environmental groups from the Keys.
MR. PATTISON: Good morning, Governor, and
members of the Cabinet. I'll be brief.
I wanted to just very briefly begin by
saying, we completely support your staff
recommendation, and that would be to continue

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 139 March 9, 1999 the critical area designation, as well as going
forward with this draft rule.
We think that's a fair compromise. It was
a package group. We had some concerns going
in. Your staff was kind enough to meet with us
and others to resolve those issues.
We think this represents the best chance to
move forward with some flexibility. It's more
incentive driven, rather than a punitive
approach, which is admittedly part of what you
have in the current form.
I -- I think, too, it is good in that it
keeps going forward with several studies that
are really part of the debate here. What is
the comprehensive wastewater need in the Keys,
what is the comprehensive stormwater solution,
what is the care and capacity there?
Those are issues that have -- that have
plagued us for the last 27 years. And until we
get some answers, I think we will continue to
be before you debating those things.
I have to suggest to you as well that money
is part of this. It's behind every issue. I
was here to speak actually in support of the
toll. But whether it's the toll or something

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 140 March 9, 1999 else, clearly there's a need for the State of
Florida to help become part of the solution on
a financial basis.
There, I'm sure, are other options other
than a toll. But that to me must be something
that Congress would have to look at before they
can realistically expect to provide some of
those dollars that the County needs there.
So very -- very briefly, I would just ask
that you continue to move forward. This rule
does have the ability to be amended and coming
back to you before adoption. We think the
workshops will help do that.
And it does provide some additional
flexibility for the County to address these
many pressing issues. We would very much hope
you can support that.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MS. HARRISON: Thank you. It's a pleasure
to be here before you today.
For the record, my name is Debra Harrison,
and I'm here today on behalf of World Wildlife
Fund.
For those of you that I have not spoken

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 141 March 9, 1999 before, I want to tell you a little bit about
myself.
I'm a 20-year resident of Monroe County. I
serve on the Governor's Commission for
Sustainable South Florida, the South Florida
Regional Planning Council for the past
eight years, and the Florida Keys National
Marine Sanctuary Advisory Council.
I have testified before the Governor and
Cabinet on a number of occasions in the past
regarding the Comprehensive Land Use Plan for
Monroe County, and remain actively involved in
trying to find solutions to the many challenges
that face our county.
First of all, I'd like to recommend to you
that the area of critical state concern status
remain for Monroe County. I think you'll get
to a point -- I've explained this to
Secretary Seibert -- that we may get to a point
where we don't let you de-designate us, because
we find that it provides us with avenues for
understanding of the many problems we face, and
that Monroe County cannot face alone, cannot
solve alone.
I also want to state that in our previous

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 142 March 9, 1999 transmittal letters to the previous Governor
and -- and Cabinet regarding the five-year
workplan for Monroe County, World Wildlife Fund
believes we have not been in substantial
compliance with either Year 1 or Year 2 tasks.
It was an ambitious program. It was set up
to try to comply with the final order that was
adopted by you that stated that there must be
no net nutrient increase of the nearshore
waters of the Florida Keys.
The Florida Keys have reached their
carrying capacity on a number of items, and
that being one.
So we have tried to craft a plan that would
move the County forward in a positive way,
in part, based on the challenge of the task
before us, and, in part, based upon the history
of what we had to -- had previously
accomplished or not.
We had recommended a 40 percent reduction
for failure to comply.
We entered into rulemaking discussions with
some of your staff members, with Commissioner
Nora Williams from Monroe County, and sought to
try to define a more realistic approach to what

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 143 March 9, 1999 needed to be accomplished, while again trying
to protect the environmental integrity of the
Florida Keys.
We have agreed that we will continue with
the identification of cesspits and the
acceleration of removal of cesspits located
outside of the identified hot spot areas, that
we will undertake funding initiatives in
Monroe County that will allow the County to
move forward with wastewater alternatives that
will provide higher levels of nutrient
reduction through package treatment plants, and
other alternatives.
We have agreed to accelerate land
acquisition, particularly within the CARL
program. And we have revised dates for those
issues that we have not been in compliance
with.
We believe -- World Wildlife Fund believes
that this is a -- a series of tasks on a
time line that can be accomplished. It will
take actions and initiatives to move us
forward.
And I would share with you that one of the
greatest concerns that I have, and the reason

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 144 March 9, 1999 that I believe that Monroe County has failed to
be in compliance for the last two years, is
because it is an extremely expensive program
that we're talking about undertaking.
For many years now, I have been in
Washington, D.C., speaking with various
congressmen, and trying to establish funding
initiatives to assist Monroe County on the
Federal level.
I know that there are members of this
Cabinet who have supported, including the
Florida Keys and the restudy, so that we could
secure some level of funding to be able to
address water quality improvements in the
Florida Keys through that whole south Florida
ecosystem restoration initiative.
I would share with you that so far we have
been extremely unsuccessful, and I'm afraid
that in the coming year, even with the support
of the Governor and Cabinet, that it will be
a -- very much an uphill battle.
And so funding continues to be a critical
issue. It's one of the reasons that I
personally am disappointed that the toll
initiative on U.S. 1 has been withdrawn from

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 145 March 9, 1999 your consideration today.
Yes, I think we need to have consensus
around that. I think that everyone needs to
understand what we're trying to accomplish.
But the more funding initiatives that we
withdraw, particularly as a local partner, when
we're trying to seek a Federal match, the more
critical the implementation of the goals and
tasks that are before you today become, and the
more unwieldy they become in terms of
implementation.
I am committed to working with you. I
understand that affordable housing has been
raised on a -- on a -- by a number of speakers,
and I think it's important for you to know that
we have chosen not to address that in this
negotiation on the proposed rule.
The South Florida Regional Planning Council
is working diligently, and has established a
task force to address affordable housing issues
in Broward, Dade, and Monroe Counties, and we
will continue to work through that avenue, and
I would be happy to have our Executive
Director, Carolyn Dekle, keep you all informed
of that.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 146 March 9, 1999 We also have the Affordable Housing Task
Force that Representative Sorensen has
established that has provided what I consider
to be a brain storming list of issues.
But it is a critical issue, and more
importantly, in terms of what you're dealing
with today on the Comprehensive Plan, we must
make sure that whatever initiatives we
establish to relieve the affordable housing
crunch in Monroe County are consistent with the
goals and the policies of the
Comprehensive Plan. So it is a big challenge
that awaits us also.
Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
And, again, I support the proposed rule that's
before you today.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
MR. GROSSO: Good morning, Governor Bush,
members of the Commission.
I apologize for my voice. I'm very sick,
but I -- I needed to come up anyway because
this is so important.
My name is Richard Grosso. I'm with the
Environmental and Land Use Law Center. We're a

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 147 March 9, 1999 nonprofit law firm. We represent environmental
groups in the Keys and south Florida. I'm here
today representing the Florida Keys
Environmental Fund.
I've personally been involved in regulatory
and planning issues in the Keys for my entire
13-year career. And I've been immersed in this
comp plan since at least 1991.
We're here basically to support the
proposal that's in front of you. We supported
it as a comprehensive approach to kind of
tinker with the -- to say -- tinker with, the
approach we've got now, make it a little more
effective, little more thoughtful and
long-term.
By the way, Teresa Tinker is an incredibly
talented person. There's an --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't tinker with her.
MR. GROSSO: There's an unprecedented
amount of agency coordination, and shared
responsibility in the Keys. And she's one of
the reasons that it's really begun to work very
well over the last few years. I think people
on both sides of these issues would all agree
on that. And I just really needed to say that.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 148 March 9, 1999 I think one of the things we're doing is
we're kind of shifting emphasis to hot spots
away from cesspits.
But I think it's very important that this
Commission make it clear for the media and the
public, that we are not backing off of the
cesspit replacement program. I've already seen
the media in the Keys start to say that. We
can't be sending those mixed signals.
We're doing away with the one-for-one
cesspit replacement for the first 88 units;
we're giving them a guaranteed 88 units for the
first three years.
But we're not saying it's okay to have
cesspits. And I hope y'all understand what a
cesspit is.
I think you do by now.
As part of the comprehensive package that
we were prepared to -- to accept and agree to,
we see a couple of things we're losing that
we're very concerned with. Number one is the
toll road. The money is critical. We've got
to have a toll road.
We need it for land acquisition, we need it
for water quality. We have absolutely got to

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 149 March 9, 1999 have it.
We can work with some of the changes about
residents and maybe they don't have to pay too
much and that sort of thing. We need to work
on that. We've got to have it in the very near
future in the Florida Keys.
And then the -- adding permits. It's been
a huge leap of faith that there's been
255 permits a year, and a conned commitment out
of commercial before we even know if we should
have anymore.
This ecosystem could be on the verge of
collapse. We've already lost 20,000 of the
60,000 acres of this ecosystem. It's a very
complex problem.
We're losing tropical hardwood hammocks at
an alarming rate. They don't grow anywhere
else. It's -- it's not just water quality.
And so to allow what we've allowed has been
huge. It's part of the package for us that we
were going to permanently --
(Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)
MR. GROSSO: -- cut the rate of growth by
20 percent, at least until those studies are
done.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 150 March 9, 1999 So we're not going to be real supportive of
increasing that number again until those
studies are in.
And remember, we are not tearing up the
hammocks in the Florida Keys to provide
affordable housing for conchs over the last few
years. We've been doing it to build second and
third homes for wealthy people from
Fort Lauderdale.
We need to directly subsidize conchs and
getting them into --
GOVERNOR BUSH: You have a problem with
Fort Lauderdale? I'm just --
MR. GROSSO: I'm from Fort Lauderdale.
That's why I singled those folks out.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I want
rebuttal --
MR. GROSSO: But we need to subsidize the
people -- the conchs who need affordable
housing. We don't need to let the land and the
habitat and the environment subsidize it
through a numbers game that the more permits
translates into affordable housing, because it
hasn't worked that way.
And so that's how we would support getting

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 151 March 9, 1999 to the affordable housing problem.
So we ask you to go to rulemaking. We'll
support this. The problems we have, we'll hope
that they get fixed as we go through the
rulemaking problem, then we'd support the rule.
We wouldn't challenge it.
I'll close by saying, we don't have a big
margin for error in the Florida Keys. As you
can see from the billions of dollars that are
having to go into Everglades restoration.
We have a fighting chance to keep that from
happening in the Keys if we don't let the
problem get much worse. But we can't back off
of the progress that's been made. We can't
renew the debate, do we have a water quality
and habitat problem. We do.
People will always debate that they're not
the problem. But this Commission knows full
well where we've been, and we've got to keep
moving.
Thank you very much. Be happy to answer
any questions.
Thank you.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Could you -- could
you elaborate just a little bit on the -- on

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 152 March 9, 1999 the affordable housing that you -- you're
talking about, how it would work in your
concept?
MR. GROSSO: I'm not an expert on the
mechanics of providing affordable housing --
providing affordable housing.
I know through 1000 Friends, their
program -- and I used to work for them -- that
there are -- the concept of direct subsidy,
vouchers, low interest loans to the people.
And my basic concept is not just by
building more permits in the Keys on the theory
that more will be affordable, that won't do it.
Because we've been doing that, and it's still
only more wealthy people who can afford second
homes that --
I've got -- my wife's fifth generation
conch. And her family, they got -- they're
leaving the Keys, not because of growth
management, but because of the
commercialization of Key West, and because it's
so attractive to everybody else. They are just
getting priced out of the market just because
of supply and demand, there's such a limited
supply.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 153 March 9, 1999 And so I think -- and I'm not an expert --
but we've got to directly subsidize those
people with dollars, and power them to go and
buy the houses or rent the units. That's what
I think.
But I would defer to people who are better
technicians on that, Commissioner.
Thank you very much.
MS. TINKER: Next speaker is Representative
Ken Sorensen.
And while Representative Sorensen is coming
up, I just want to make it clear that if you
approve the staff recommendation today to go
forward with the rulemaking process, the next
steps will be to hold some public workshops in
Monroe County, and then go into the formal
public hearing stage.
And then we would come back to you with
hopefully a final rule that everybody can
embrace and agree to --
GOVERNOR BUSH: When -- when that will be?
MS. TINKER: It probably will take about
three months --
GOVERNOR BUSH: How long will the sewage --
MS. TINKER: -- process.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 154 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: How about the -- the
studies that have been mentioned --
Secretary Seibert mentioned to begin with? How
long were those -- this -- when will those
studies be complete?
MS. TINKER: They're staggered. The
Wastewater Master Plan should produce some
information this month that will tell us where
homes are or commercial businesses that will
not be targeted for any kind of centralized
systems. We'll try to go after those first for
cesspit replacement.
We also want to try to target at least
three hot spots over the next couple of months
that we can seek some dollars to actually
retrofit those hot spots.
The Wastewater Master Plan officially will
com-- will be completed about a year from now.
But we believe we have enough preliminary
information from that, along with the water
quality protection program documents, to start
moving forward.
The Stormwater Master Plan is not underway
yet. We're waiting on some dollars to actually
be able to begin that planning process.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 155 March 9, 1999 The carrying capacity study we have begun.
The Federal government has provided 3 million
dollars. We're matching that 3 million dollars
at the State level to do the carrying capacity
study. And we expect the results of that
within two years.
Representative Sorensen.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Thank you,
Teresa.
Well, I hope I'm the last speaker, and
will -- I -- I might go a little over
2 minutes, but I won't go much more.
My name is Ken Sorensen. I'm State
Representative from District 120, south Dade to
Key West. I'm a former County Commissioner,
and Mayor of Monroe County.
And I -- my neighbor, who lives 100 miles
away, Tom Sawyer, spoke earlier about being
dark haired and so forth.
Let me just draw a quick picture if I can
for you. When critical concern came to
Monroe County -- and I've been living with it
the full period of time -- Lyndon Johnson had
just stepped down as President, Watergate had
not occurred, the war in Vietnam was raging.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 156 March 9, 1999 That's when critical concern came to
Monroe County. Let's put this in perspective.
Let me start by a comment. I looked at the
budget for this year. I have strong hopes, and
I am -- had a great meeting with the Secretary.
And I -- he has my commitment to work with him
as closely as possible.
I'm going to conclude in a few minutes by
saying, I'm asking for two or three things to
be done.
But in the meantime, the cornerstone of
what's going on here is environment. The
cornerstone of this plan is cesspits.
When I look at nearly a billion dollar
budget for the DCA, probably prepared last
year, I'm looking at $100,000 allocation for
cesspit work. And this is the cornerstone of
the environmental problem. It makes no sense
to me.
Do they -- do the people really think that
someone's going to drive down the street and
say, hello everybody, would you let me know if
you've got a cesspit.
Yes, I've got a bad cesspit here. Would
you come in and give me a bill for fifteen or

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 157 March 9, 1999 seventeen or twenty thousand dollars.
The process is wrong. It's not going to be
answered the way it's being addressed.
To date, we have no idea what the true cost
of the Land Use Plan is: 2 million, 4 million,
6 million, 8 million dollars, we have no idea.
We've been promised monetary help through
the State and the Federal Government for years.
But there is nothing forthcoming.
Let me answer Commissioner Nelson's
question on the toll. You heard all this
wonderful talk about a toll.
Sir, a 3 billion dollar debt used to
amortize over 30 years at five-and-a-half
percent on a one-way toll coming in and out of
the Keys would be $80 a car. That's the
practicality of what you're hearing here today.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Where do you get the
3 billion, Ken?
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Huh?
Three billion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Well, we know for
a fact that -- that basically the sewer cost is
going to be 1.3 billion. That's the low side

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 158 March 9, 1999 estimate that I'm hearing out of the numbers
that -- that have been forwarded so far. We
don't know about wastewater.
My point here, Governor, is we need to get
the number out to find out what it is, because
nobody knows. We'll deal in realities, and I
know you're that kind of a person.
Monroe Countians are vitally and personally
and individually dedicated to protecting their
environment, including a Keys-wide sewer
system, if necessary. It's the cost of that of
forty to fifty thousand dollars per household
that's scaring the death out of them right now,
because they don't know where that's going to
come from.
The carrying capacity is going -- study is
going on. We don't know what happens to those
people who have a lot, and never be able to
build on it.
ROGO mandated by State is currently under a
major challenge. I don't hear anyone
mentioning that in the Third DCA. And it's a
serious challenge.
In fact, what is the problem we're trying
to address here? It's pollution. We've talked

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 159 March 9, 1999 about it again.
If it's pollution we're trying to stop, why
is it that the -- the stick that we're using is
a completely environmentally engineered house
can't be built. I don't understand the logic.
You can't put in a house that will do no
environmental damage. So we're reducing it to
88. I don't really see the difference. Why
not reduce it to zero.
I agree with some of the previous speakers.
It's -- its' -- there's some judgmental issues
here.
And I believe that the -- the reduction
from 250 to 88 will end up in additional
lawsuits because of economic discrimination.
Right now, only a rich person can ever build a
home in Monroe County. That's just simply the
way it is. If anybody wants to ask about it,
I'll be glad to talk about it later.
It seems for years, the same intervenors
and their lobbyists have had an unusually
strong effect on DCA. Seemingly, they are the
real directors of policy. I know that's going
to change.
While the working man and woman are busy

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 160 March 9, 1999 trying to put food on their table, unaware of
public meetings and public notices that are
influencing their lives, I assure you, they do
care about their environment.
An example of some of the quick things that
happen -- I think it was Wednesday last week
that this landed on my desk. I had no
knowledge of this. None. Zero. And nor do I
know anyone in the Keys that had any knowledge
that this hearing was coming up, or was it
discussed out there.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that -- can I stop right
now, because --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Sure.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that -- that would give
me some cause for concern.
Teresa, can you comment on lack of notice?
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This is the
predeal to go out and do all of the hearings
and all of the other things that are --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, but it's significant.
I mean, this is --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- going to take
place. So --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Because that's not --

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 161 March 9, 1999 frankly, that's not my -- I don't believe
that's the case, Ken. I want to make sure
that -- on the record --
MS. TINKER: We have been working with the
County, Commissioner Williams -- Nora Williams,
who's the County Land Use liaison
commissioner -- for several weeks now, maybe
even a couple months perhaps, talking back and
forth about bringing this to the Cabinet.
We had provided notices to those people
that would be affected by this action. We've
invited folks to come to Tallahassee and
participate in this process.
We've had several meetings over the last
several weeks, conference calls, et cetera.
I've talked to all of the
County Commissioners personally over the phone
to say this is coming.
The County's report was presented to the
Administration Commission in January, along
with the Department's report.
So I believe that notice has been provided.
We've also talked to the newspapers. I know
there have been several articles as early as
two weekends ago about the action getting ready

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 162 March 9, 1999 to come to the Cabinet and some of the
preliminaries of what the recommendation might
be.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Gallagher's
correct that these are rules that will begin
this public formal process, which we will take
very seriously.
But I -- I just wanted -- wanted to
clarify -- now, I may have been -- I apologize
if you didn't get proper notice. And that --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that is a problem, since
you're the duly elected --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: I think it was
Wednesday, was it not, Ms. Tinker, that you
came by my office and gave me the data?
MS. TINKER: One day last week.
Probably --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Yes.
MS. TINKER: -- Wednesday. I don't
recall --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Thank you, sir.
MS. TINKER: -- right off the top of my
head.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Okay. And I

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 163 March 9, 1999 heard Commissioner Reich say that she had not
been made aware of it.
But that's not the issue. Let's -- let's
try and -- you know, let's not fight old issues
out here. Let's try and see if we can't find a
way to solve the problems.
If all of our combined efforts to protect
the environment, which is good, will become a
reality, on -- we can go ahead here.
But unintended consequences from great
environmental movements are happening. I think
you just need to hear this for a few minutes.
Federal programs, Preservation 2000,
Florida Communities Trust -- all of which are
great ideas -- have now combined to purchase
and own 94.7 percent of Monroe County,
including the Everglades. Ninety-four point
seven percent of Monroe County.
I provided some data up there for you,
which are on your desks.
The remaining 5 percent of Monroe County,
certified by the tax appraiser, only 20 percent
of that is left to be developed. The rest is
either mangrove, salt marsh, and so on.
So the reality of the issue is that

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 164 March 9, 1999 Monroe County is basically, for the most part,
built out. Take a look at those numbers.
Those are real numbers.
As a result of what's happened, our tax
base in Monroe County has been destroyed, and
that takes the same concept.
I know of a piece of property just recently
that one of the land trusts paid $525,000 for,
which went on the tax rolls for $1,000 as -- in
PILTS, Payments in Lieu of Taxes.
I would hope that next year we'd be able to
take a look at doing something about this. But
I have to make that comment.
But the 95 percent ownership now,
government -- the system economics as we know
it in America has been destroyed. This
government is in direct competition with the
private sector and people for land.
Land is sold out now. It's gone. In fact,
if you were to sell your house in
Monroe County, you have to leave. You're
history. Because you're not going to get
another permit. Because right here today we're
talking about giving out 88 permits. You're
gone.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 165 March 9, 1999 Estimates also indicate that 40 percent of
Monroe Countians have moved out in the last
ten years because of radical increases. If
your taxes were $1,000 a year ten years ago,
they are $5,000 today on the same house with no
improvements.
This is because competition has bought the
land, resultingly reduced the land, there's
nothing left, and driven the prices up as a
result of well intended environmental issues.
If we were to take the resource away from a
farming community, take away the resources of
rich farmland, take it off the tax rolls, and
then increase their taxes, it would be a
similar situation.
What I ask -- what I ask to be done -- the
decision is yours, and I understand that
because I'm missing an important tort reform
vote, and the Speaker's going to have my
head --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Go with --
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: -- if I'm not in
the right place at the right time.
But let me say to you that what's important
here to me at this moment is I'm going to ask

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 166 March 9, 1999 that you ask the DCA to establish real costs.
What are the costs of this program? Put it
down on paper, and let's find out where we're
going. Give me the cost of this program.
Ask how they propose to do this funding,
which has really been promised to the people of
Monroe County for years.
That -- I've worked with the senators and
our -- and our representative in Washington
also. I don't see anything forthcoming.
I'd ask that an exit strategy be made. For
27 years, this bar has moved up and down, and
nobody seems to know where it is. And -- and
we have a lot of suggestions. But they change
almost by the day.
When I went home last night at 9:00 o'clock
from my office, tolls were on. Apparently
sometime at daylight today, tolls went off.
And I don't quite -- but, you know, I'm
trying to work with the process.
I'm asking that you would take those three
issues of costs; and exit strategy; and good
science, which has been an issue. If we could
get the people of the Florida Keys convinced by
good science that a water quality study that

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 167 March 9, 1999 actually went all the way around the Keys
sampling the water, sampling the nearshore
waters, if we could prove that that water was
degradated, the argument would be over. It'd
be done. No one would fight the process
anymore.
But the question is out there on the
quality of science, and that's it.
So the quality of the science I'm asking
you to take a look at; the costs; ask the
Director to develop an exit strategy. And I
promised Secretary Seibert --
I know. I'm the last speaker. Let me just
look at --
MS. TINKER: Actually we have one more.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Oh. I thought
you told me I was last.
MS. TINKER: Well, I thought you were.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Okay. I would
assume that would be someone other than the
County Commissioner.
But, Secretary, I will be more than happy
to work with you in any way or shape I can --
we can get those three things done that I'd
asked.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 168 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Thank you, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
Get back to vote.
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Okay. I need to
hear what the results are here.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
I think that all of the concerns are
well-founded, and it's -- it's part of this
process. And Commissioner Seibert's going to
take his job very seriously. And he's
tailor-made for this.
MS. TINKER: We do have one last speaker,
Governor. Commissioner Nora Williams.
Commissioner Williams is the Land Use Liaison
for the Board of County Commissioners.
And while she's coming up, I will add one
note to the record. There -- part of this rule
requires a cost analysis of the
Comprehensive Plan.
We've been working with any -- the
economist group from the Environmental
Protection Agency. They've done things like
this before. They would like to assist with
that analysis. And we expect to get their

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 169 March 9, 1999 proposal within the next few days.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
Commissioner. Welcome.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: You're batting clean-up.
MS. WILLIAMS: And it is a pleasure to
appear before you today. And apologies to all
the Aides who heard part of this before.
I am Nora Williams, Monroe County
Commissioner and Land Use Facilitator. And I
am officially, as I stand before you today, a
little chagrined; a little distressed; and a
whole lot hopeful for the future we face
together.
A little chagrined because, once again,
Monroe County stands before you with little
progress made. And for the first time, I'm not
one of the people yelling about how shameful
that is. I am actually the face of that
failure.
I can hardly express to you how painful
that is to me, or how deeply I feel the weight
of that responsibility. Not a happy place
being the face of failure, and not a face I
intend to wear before you ever again.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 170 March 9, 1999 But there's some nice parts about failure,
and here's the hopeful part. The nice part
about failure is that everybody comes back to
the table with the awareness that it's time to
face reality, that it's time to deal with a
plan gone awry.
Failure forces us to put aside some of the
political gamesmanship that is always part of
this process, and return to the essential
question: Can we still piece together a plan
to improve water quality in the Keys that is
achievable, that cripples neither the local
government or the people who live there, that
makes sense.
The answer is, of course, that we have not.
But that we can. I believe the rule you see
before you, while not exactly everything I
might have hoped for, is the first step in that
process.
And gathering every agency involved, every
intervenor in Monroe County at the same table
to piece it together was an enormously
rewarding experience. I can't tell you how
much I enjoyed working with them, all of them,
even the really nasty ones.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 171 March 9, 1999 But no matter how reasonable the path that
has been laid out, you've got to have at least
one really troubling question yet before you:
Is there the political will in Monroe County to
actually make it happen?
I will be the first to admit that not
everything you have heard today is reassuring
on that score. And knowing Monroe County
history as well as you do, I can't blame you
for sweating on that issue just a little bit.
Goodness knows, we are uniquely cranky.
But failure has given us, at least most of
us, one gift. We have been forced to
acknowledge that vacillation and avoidance,
much as we adore them, have not proven to
actually solve our problems. We must find a
path that makes sense, and we must stick to it.
The people of Monroe County already know
the path laid out in this rule is a better one.
You may have heard today, they don't know,
they're not getting it, the science is beyond
them. I will tell you, that is not true. And
I'll give you an example of exactly what I
mean.
There's a working class island in the Keys

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 172 March 9, 1999 called Big Coppitt; hundreds of cesspools and
picturesque canals that can only be described
as pea green. They know they've got a problem.
They got a lot of the first letters that went
out.
And rather than standing alone and facing
huge costs, they began to gather together once
a month at the local Baptist church to
determine what they could do to help their
neighbors come up with a reasonable solution
that would help water quality.
They found a wastewater facility near them
that was underutilized, and with the leadership
of our Mayor, Wilhelmina Harvey, they passed a
referendum to do something about the problem.
This rule change that makes such an
approach the rule rather than the exception
isn't a new direction for any of us. It is,
in fact, a return to the path originally laid
out in our Comprehensive Plan.
Already supported by our BOCC, the State
and Federal agencies involved, we veered from
that path. And that veering has had
devastating consequences.
I mentioned being distressed. I'll spend

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 173 March 9, 1999 just one more quick minute telling you what
distresses me.
It's the people who cling to failure,
rather than learning from it and moving on.
It's the people who won't accept any
responsibility for the failure that, in fact,
we all share. It's the people who won't even
allow for the possibility of a new day in
Monroe County, given a plan that makes sense,
and our sticking to it.
With this rule change, we leave behind the
hounding of individuals, a politically and
socially unbearable process that left many of
our oldest, poorest, and most voiceless
citizens standing alone and frightened, facing
a possible expensive financial double hit.
And we're moving toward a more holistic
approach, facing our problems as communities
with the maximum impact for every dollar spent
that the concentration on hot spots implies.
Sure, it's not a perfect rule. I'd love it
if you spelled out how we can win back our
permits lost. We wish lots of things. But
it's your rule, not Monroe County's, although
we will have a voice in its shaping.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 174 March 9, 1999 And I believe it is a reasonable rule that
we can support. This rule is about nothing
more than if what we do makes sense is
achievable, actually improves water quality and
does it without crippling us.
I stand before you today with the
County Administrator and the County Attorney to
tell you that there can be a whole new day in
Monroe County. But we will need your help to
make it happen. And we will welcome your
support.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
Teresa, any other --
MS. TINKER: No more speakers.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we have a rule in
front of us. Is there a motion to accept it?
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: May I clarify
something, Governor?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The -- we have
rulemaking going on, but we also have some
statements of -- that are critical. And we are
saying if we approve the recommendation, that
the area of critical concern is continued; the

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 175 March 9, 1999 20 percent reduction is affected; and the
fines, as I recall, the other part of it --
MS. TINKER: That's correct.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and -- and a
couple of resolutions. There's only one piece
of it that really deals with rulemaking. There
are --
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's true. And,
in fact --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- with that,
everybody understands that.
GOVERNOR BUSH: The resolution is -- is
without -- is toll-less --
MS. TINKER: That's correct.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- as well --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- which is in your work.
So --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
GOVERNOR BUSH: There are four -- four
elements of it.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll stand
corrected on the three, Gov-- Mr. Milligan, and
Governor. But we --
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 176 March 9, 1999 Is there a second?
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Any discussion?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, I'd like
to just make a couple of comments real -- just
real briefly. It's been long, and I think
we're going to take a break.
But I think this Cabinet has steadfastly
recognized the importance of protecting the
environmentally sensitive area of
Monroe County, and I don't think we're ever
going to back away from that.
But I also see as we developed our -- our
idea about how to do that, we've kind of
developed a virtual reality model of what
Monroe County should be. And then you have the
reality here. And there's billions in between.
And -- and I can -- you know, I would love
to be able to wave a magic wand and have
those -- you know, load up the wagons and ship
the money down to Monroe County. But I can't
do it, and -- and I don't see that happening.
And so I would hope as we continue in this
process that we try to get our virtual reality
dream a little closer to reality, and for --

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 177 March 9, 1999 for that to occur, which I think would be good
for Monroe County, from -- from the
environmental standpoint, and from the -- the
people who live there, and want to have a life
there, that -- that that -- people are going to
have to give on both sides.
And I think the affordable housing issue's
a -- is a very important issue. Looking at the
price behind a lot of these questions is -- is
still very important. I don't think we need to
assume anything in that regard.
Yet at the same time, because there are
such unique problems in Monroe County, I would
hope people would open up to unique solutions.
The toll road. I mean, I wouldn't want a toll
going into Polk County. But it may be
necessary.
When I wanted to build a road from one end
of Polk County to the other, we didn't have the
money to do it, so we built a toll road. It's
just being completed and the last leg will be
open in a few months. People are very happy
with it.
Would they have preferred no tolls?
Absolutely.

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 178 March 9, 1999 So I think -- I think the toll concept
needs to be explored and make sure it will
work, and, you know, how much money it'll
produce.
Maybe we need a toll at I-75 at the Georgia
border, and just everybody pays a toll as they
come in.
But -- but I think if we kind of all put
our heads together and -- and look for unique
solutions to some of these very complex
problems, we can get there.
But I hope we get closer to reality than --
than we have in the past.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: One of the
things --
If I may, Governor.
I think one of the -- the complaints that
I think that people in Monroe County -- or a
lot of them have a very valid point is that we
have had a moving target.
And there -- we don't really know --
I think the virtual realty is where we'd like
to go. But that's not going to happen.
When -- I think they'd like to know when
does all the restrictions get lifted? What --

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 179 March 9, 1999 what has to happen for the County to get there?
And I think that should be part of the
process that you all go through in your
hearings and everything so -- so that some of
us can feel that -- that there is a goal, and
it can be reached, and we know what it is.
And for the many years that I've been
involved in this, it's changed, we find new
problems so we add it to the list. And maybe
we still have to do that. But I really think
we should try and find a -- let everybody know
where we go, and what's it going to cost to get
there? How do we get there?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Katherine.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor, I would just
like to say as a conch myself, the dying breed,
I've also been concerned as well -- I'm excited
about the new leadership that's going on there,
and the personal responsibility that they're
taking.
But I think some of the -- the specific
issues, the fact that it's 100-mile long
island, the fact that it has 12 school
districts and have all -- has all the
associated burdens from the normal -- this

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 180 March 9, 1999 normal size would only have three or four.
The fact that 95 percent of this entire
county is owned by the State or Federal
Government, it doesn't have the opportunity to
generate those kinds of -- of taxes that other
areas of similar size.
And we can go on and on, despite the fact
that they gave the Everglades, that they gave
Pennekamp Park, and weren't compensated, all
those kinds of things that have unique -- a
unique situation.
I think that Commissioner Gallagher's
suggestion is -- is very important, that we
have an ultimate goal.
I think one of the most compelling thoughts
today is the fact that we have asked
Monroe County to do something that we couldn't
otherwise do ourselves and held them
accountable.
So to the extent we can work hand in hand,
and really come up with an ultimate goal on
something that's not -- Commissioner Crawford's
virtual reality, as he referred to, I think
that's -- that's real important, because they
need to feel that they're moving forward and --

ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 181 March 9, 1999 and not constantly having to come back to us
and -- and wearing that face of failure, if you
will, but showing the progress then.
I think we've made a great deal of progress
now, and we're going to all look forward and
move ahead.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
Any other comments?
All in favor of the resolution.
THE CABINET: Aye.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed.
It passes.
And we have a break till 1:30.
How about that? Is that all right?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: All right. Let's
do it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
(The Administration Commission Agenda was
concluded.)
(Luncheon recess.)
*

DEP SITING BOARD 182 March 9, 1999 (Commissioner Crawford, Attorney General
Butterworth, and Treasurer Nelson were not
present in the room.)
GOVERNOR BUSH: If we could begin, please,
I think we now have a -- a quorum.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
MR. GREEN: Governor, we're going to start
with the Siting Board --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
MR. GREEN: -- agenda.
Item 1 is the minutes of the June 24th
meeting.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved and
seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 2 is a
recommended order that the Siting Board adopt
the Administrative Law Judge order of adoption
and related findings of fact.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion.

DEP SITING BOARD 183 March 9, 1999 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move it.
Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved and
seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: That completes that agenda.
(The Department of Environmental Protection
Siting Board Agenda was concluded.)
*

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN184 March 9, 1999 MR. GREEN: On to the Trustees.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: And I believe we're going to
start with Item Number 11, which is the
Miami Circle emergency archeological
acquisition.
We have 20 speakers, Governor, 2 minutes a
speaker.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I would -- with -- I know a
lot of you have come from south Florida. I
know how much it costs to come up, because I
used to do it quite regularly. And, you know,
you're -- it's my hometown. I'm happy y'all
are here.
But if we could try, recognizing that there
are at least 20 speakers --
(Attorney General Butterworth entered the
room.)
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and more that might
come, if we could try to stay within the
2-minute cap. Of if things have been said, if
there's a new, unique way of saying it, go
ahead and say it. But just remember that we --
we're trying to get through this, and do the
best job we can.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN185 March 9, 1999 I really appreciate all of you coming.
It's kind of exciting that this many people
would take -- take the time to come.
So, Kirby, lead us.
MR. GREEN: Okay. The first speaker is
Katy Sorenson, Dade County Commissioner.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, how you
doing?
MS. SORENSON: Thank you.
Good afternoon, Governor Bush, members of
the Cabinet. Thank you for hearing me.
I bring greetings and apologies from
Mayor Penelas, who's in New York City on County
business. But that's how it goes.
Once again, we are bringing you a matter of
great importance. And I want to just briefly
recap.
Miami-Dade County's trusty team of
archeologists, led by mild mannered Bob Carr,
was diligently conducting a routine dig on the
site purchased by Mr. Baumann -- whose name,
incidentally, means builder in German -- for
apartment towers, when they struck upon
something never before found in Miami, a young
city merely 103 years old.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN186 March 9, 1999 What did they find? Among the artifacts,
animal remains, and other archeological stuff
only archeologists could love, they found a
circle, and a community went wild.
The New York Times said on February 15th
that the Tequesta site has, quote, stirred
community pride not seen since the Marlins won
the World Series in 1997, unquote. And that
was sort of a fleeting moment.
Tequesta --
GOVERNOR BUSH: But it was a good one.
MS. SORENSON: Tequesta, by the way --
Tequesta, by the way, when mispronounced
Tequesta, means it'll cost you.
We at the County -- we at the County knew
we had to take action. We started by asking
our experienced and resourceful County Manager,
Merrett Stierheim, to establish a manager's
task force to look at options: Purchase of the
site, building around the site, or moving the
circle off the site to a different location.
We enlisted the cooperation of the City of
Miami, Mayor Joe Carollo and the Commission,
but alas, with their financial problems, they
thought it more prudent to push for an

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN187 March 9, 1999 opportunity to collect revenue for their city
rather than to buy an expensive antique.
Our attorneys approached the developer with
the idea of building around it, but that, too,
was rebuffed.
Void by a growing community spirit, the
County Commission, with the support of
Mayor Penelas, took the bull by the horns, held
an emergency meeting where a passionate public
made its case for preservation. And then in
a -- excuse me -- in a rare and unusual move,
voted to start eminent domain proceedings to
save what's now known proudly and fondly as the
Miami Circle.
How could the Tequestas have known 800 or
more -- now that we know what the carbon dating
has done -- how could they have known what kind
of uproar they would cause 800 or more years
hence?
And what will all this mean to our
descendants in 1,000 or 2,000 years?
One speaker noted dryly at our public
hearing that the Tequestas are not a major
voting block. But they are. They speak to us
from the past, and they've left us a time

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN188 March 9, 1999 capsule with messages yet unearthed.
They speak to us through archeologists,
through our eclectic group of activists who
have held vigil at the site. Their lobbyists
are school children who have implored us to
hold our history dear, they speak to us through
a current generation of indigenous people
struggling to keep their heritage.
Today the State has an opportunity to
respond to the yearnings of its people, past,
present, and future, because we are the link
between the past and the future. We stand
ready to take responsibility --
(Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.)
MS. SORENSON: -- for our action, to raise
the necessary funds.
And we ask that you become a partner, we
ask that you accept your staff's
recommendation. We think it's good. And it
will save what one citizen called the ancient
heart of Miami.
So thank you for your consideration. I
hope to bring good news back to Miami-Dade.
Thank you very much.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Commissioner.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN189 March 9, 1999 MR. GREEN: The next speaker is
Bobby Billie, followed by Barry Silvers,
followed by Susan Anderson.
MR. BILLIE: Thank you.
At the beginning of the agreement of the
United States, that's the Seminole -- Seminole
people make the agreement in their ballad to
each other for long time, and it just can't
win, and the United States, they're losing
their people.
And then they finally gave up and said,
we're going to respect your life, we're going
to respect your tradition, we're going to
respect your way of life.
But that's never been honored between --
since 18-- 1700 to 1800, and there's -- there's
time.
So since then, all of our way of life and
the culture's been destroyed time after time,
the generation to generation at this time. But
we're still here trying to practice our way of
life, the way the Creator have gave us; the way
the Creator have acknowledged us; the way the
Creator have gave us the law, our way of life,
raised on the natural life, based on the -- all

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN190 March 9, 1999 the resource that surround us.
I think it just time people acknowledge all
the nature's -- the gift from the Creators.
Because today what we see, nobody acknowledge
those anymore. The structure what we have
today killing all kinds of people and killing
our ancient gift from the beginning.
The Circle, it's important to us, not only
us, the world of the people. And us -- I'm
sure you have letters for every different
nation of the people, because their concern is
our concern.
So I -- so I suggest you to acknowledge us
because we're speaking for you also. We're
speaking for your future of the people, because
that's the way it was supposed to be. We are
caretakers of the life of the earth. And
that's the way that all of us supposed to be,
not to vanish each other, not to abuse each
other. And that's what we all acknowledge each
other, what the Creator have gave us.
And I also see when you're -- the beginning
of your meeting, you honor that person, the
Creator. So we still honor the same person,
but we have our own way of life to do what we

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN191 March 9, 1999 need to do. And you not acknowledge us that
way.
So I ask you to do that in protection our
sacred ground.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
MR. GREEN: Barry Silver.
MR. SILVER: Thank you very much, members
of the Cabinet.
Governor Bush, behind you is an insignia of
the state of Florida. And on that insignia is
a Native American. And that really talks a lot
about what the state of Florida is all about,
our proud culture.
And we have the unique opportunity right
now -- and that's why I'm very grateful to the
Cabinet for allowing us to have a moment to
reenforce the fact that the state of Florida
now, after so many years of our government not
treating the Native Americans fairly, now has
an opportunity to take one small step, to make
one small gesture in trying to correct some of
the wrongs, and saying that we will preserve a
little bit of our history.
The Native Americans have so much to teach

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN192 March 9, 1999 us about how to live in harmony with the earth,
about how to live in harmony with each other.
And hopefully, we can learn from the
Native Americans to take us into the next
millennium. Because if we don't learn some of
those lessons, our future is, indeed, bleak.
The Native Americans believe that no one
should own certain property, that the ground
was sacred.
We have an opportunity now to decide what's
sacred for us. Is it going to be another
apartment complex, is it going to be the all
mighty dollar, or is thousands of students,
their voices, is that sacred to us? Is our
past sacred to us, our other cultures and
Native Americans that have -- is their lessons,
is that sacred to us.
We have enacted laws in the state of
Florida, Florida Statute 267; Miami has a code;
we have Federal laws; and international law,
all agreeing with the Native Americans, that
certain sites, certain areas are so sacred that
no one has the authority, no one has the right
to own that property, and that this belongs to
all of us.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN193 March 9, 1999 And so I hope that you will respond to
what's been suggested here today, and to the
suggestions of the staff, to take care of that
site, and make sure that it is protected for
the well-being of the citizens of Florida, and
of the world.
Thank you very much.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Susan Anderson.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome back.
MR. GREEN: Shannon Larsen.
MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Governor.
It's a rare privilege to be in such an
auspicious gathering twice in the same month.
It's not -- not something that an ordinary
citizen like myself is accustomed to.
But I really appreciate the opportunity to
let us all speak. I -- I know your time is --
is valuable.
What I wanted to say to you was that
there -- there are a lot of -- a lot of
components to a community, to a government, to
a people to living in a multicultural
community. And when components of that
community's beliefs are consistently ignored,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN194 March 9, 1999 it works to the detriment of us all.
I am excited and honored to be a part of
the effort to save this place, because I
believe it gives us all a gift. It gives us
all a special sacred site within downtown Miami
that we -- we have never had the opportunity to
have before.
For indigenous people, it is particularly
important, but it's important for all people as
an inspiration.
I'm also, as a professional, a growth
management planner. I've worked with 163,
Part II, of the Florida Statutes for many
years, and have always felt that the provisions
within that statute for the preservation of
archeological and historical cultural resources
were of incredible importance to all the people
of the state of Florida.
When we have a site that our archeologists
are saying is the most significant site ever
found in North America, then we have -- we have
a real test of whether or not the people who
enact -- who -- who, as their representatives,
enacted this law, saying that these sorts of
resources are important, then we -- we have a

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN195 March 9, 1999 real test of whether we believe in the
cultural, historical, and archeological
preservation aspects of 163.
And if we believe in it for one group of
people, then I think it is incumbent upon us as
a multicultural community to believe in the
importance of that law for all people. And I
know that you are good people who will honor
that for us as well.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Shannon Larsen, followed by
Melody Johnson.
MS. LARSEN: I have seen the destruction --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. Can you -- can
you state your name again, and where --
MS. LARSEN: I'm Shannon Larsen.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Concerned citizen, or part
of a group, or --
MS. LARSEN: I'm a concerned citizen.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Thank you.
MS. LARSEN: I have seen the destruction of
indigenous sites throughout Florida for the
past six years, I have seen the destruction of
their village sites, I have seen the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN196 March 9, 1999 destruction of their ceremonial sites.
It's not something nice to have to
experience, but I have been there, and I have
seen it.
I have seen open graves, and I have seen
human remains being removed, and their
belongings.
I have seen them taken away. And I have
seen the pain, the deep pain, of the indigenous
people fighting to have those remains and their
belongings returned to the earth, because of
their belief that this is not the right thing
to do for their people.
I have seen their ceremonial sites just
bulldozed down without any concern or deep
feeling about what's happening.
And because those things has happened, we
have a different opportunity today. This is a
new day, I feel, a new day where the community
of people on this earth are beginning to awaken
to the wrongs of the past, and they have a deep
desire throughout this state, and throughout
the United States, and throughout the world,
begin to do the right thing, to begin to do the
right thing towards the indigenous --

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN197 March 9, 1999 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
MS. LARSEN: -- people, and for the earth.
And I think this is a wonderful opportunity
for us to take advantage of, and do the right
thing.
It's interesting. I have heard the
argument that developers do have the right.
And yet at some point, we have to look at what
does that mean? Does a developer have the
right to -- to destroy a pristine river?
This to me is the same situation, and it's
coming time during this time that we must start
looking at what is right to do. And work
things out, because we cannot continue to
destroy the earth, and we cannot continue to
destroy these sites.
Young people come to me all the time and
want to know about a sanctuary, they want to
know about what is sacred? How can we teach
our young people what is sacred and what a
sanctuary is, if we don't know ourselves. We
need to develop this.
So I appreciate -- and my time is running
out. I'm just asking us to please, please,
let's do the right thing for the future

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN198 March 9, 1999 generation. Let us say this is sacred, and it
needs to be protected.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
MR. GREEN: Melody Johnson, followed by
Louis Mejia.
MS. JOHNSON: Good afternoon, Governor, and
the Cabinet. My name's Melody Johnson, and I
am the Co-Chair of the North Florida Rainbow
Coalition. And we're standing in support --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you -- I'm a little
hard of hearing. Can you speak --
MS. JOHNSON: Yes. Can you hear me now?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Perfect. Thank you.
MS. JOHNSON: Oh. It's very unusual people
say they can't hear me.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sure it's just a brief
thing though.
MS. JOHNSON: Standing in support of the
staff recommendation, I have letters here that
I would like to present to you. I would like
to read just one statement out of the letter.
The Rainbow Coalition, we have approached
several of the legislators. And we believe
that the acquisition of this property will be a

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN199 March 9, 1999 great assess (sic) to the multicultural wealth
of Florida, a positive statement to the
Native American community, and all peoples of
color, that our spiritual beliefs, practice,
and history are respected.
A statement of this kind is long overdue,
and something we can all be proud of for many
generations to come.
We have a letter of support from
Representative Willie Logan, also
Representative Hill -- I believe you should
already have his letter -- and
Representative Dennis from Jacksonville.
So we wanted to be able to show the
statewide support for the effort as well. So I
don't know how I should get these letters to
you. I have originals and copies.
And as the Rainbow activists, and the
Co-Chair of the Rainbow for many years, we
would like to also let you know, we had a press
conference in support of the staff
recommendation yesterday, and representation
from the NAACP was also present. They could
not be here today.
So we are looking at this effort as a way

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN200 March 9, 1999 for us to celebrate our diverse history in this
state, and we look forward to the cooperation
of the Governor and the Cabinet.
And in closing, as we talk about this
situation amongst ourselves, we were reminded
that the native people were the original people
of this country, and of this state. And it is
somewhat of a satire that in effort to save
something that is sacred, that we're in a
situation where they have to buy their own land
back. But they're willing to do that.
So I hope that we're willing to have the
consideration and the patience to do what we
need to do to celebrate our diverse history.
Thank you very much.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MS. JOHNSON: Peace.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Louis Mejia, followed by
Paul McGee.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Louis. Why don't you
pronounce your name for everybody from --
MR. MEJIA: Okay. It's Louis Mejia.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- north Florida.
MR. MEJIA: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: We're -- we're going

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN201 March 9, 1999 through sensitivity training courses for all of
my new co-workers. It'll take awhile though.
MR. MEJIA: That's okay. I think you guys
are doing a great job, and I thank you for this
opportunity to be here.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm just giving Kirby a
hard time.
MR. MEJIA: Okay. I come here really with
a message of peace, and I know that we've --
have an important decision to make here today.
In the essence of time, we've collected
thousands and thousands of petition, which I
want to give as a public record here.
And also I brought a book from the
Department of Interior called Protecting
Archeological Sites in Private Lands. This
book is so valuable where -- living in south
Florida for many years, I didn't realize how
many archeological sites are here in Florida.
And for me, it's been an impressive
opportunity just to be part of this, but also
to see how many people around the world have
sent us e-mails and letters of support to show
how important this is.
So in the essence of time, I want to make

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN202 March 9, 1999 this short, and really just present this to
you, and also give this as a gift so you can
see a way to protect us.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Gracias, Louis.
Thank you for coming up.
MR. MEJIA: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Lance Little Chief.
MR. PAUL McGEE: Hello again.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome back.
MR. PAUL McGEE: Achee.
My name --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Who's with you?
MR. PAUL McGEE: In my language in Apache,
achee means thank you.
Forgive me --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Who's with you? Excuse me,
sir.
Who's -- who's with you? Who's that
beautiful girl?
MR. PAUL McGEE: This is my daughter,
Amber Little Fawn.
I brought her up here, because this is the
next generation, our next generation. My
little niece over there, she's the next

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN203 March 9, 1999 generation, she's one year old.
If we take something away from these
children, what was there for the people, then
we're destroying the next generation. We're
taking away something from them.
It's like taking her heart out, and putting
it away, and it's dead. She's no longer here.
Her values or nothing is here. She has nothing
to learn, because she's not here. If you take
that away, there's nothing for the people.
In this generation, this is the century,
there has been a lot of destruction, there has
been a lot of things that's been taken away
from the people. We're going into the new
milleneum. We're going into the new century.
Don't take something away now that could
carry on to the next generation, because if we
do that, then it's like falling off a cliff,
there's nothing there at the bottom until you
hit.
I come here with a good heart, so you can
understand that through our generation, just as
well as your generations and your children's
generation and so forth, we'll have something
that they can look back in history, they can

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN204 March 9, 1999 look back in time and say, you know, I learned
by this. This is what my fathers has taught
us, this is what was saved. I can come here to
this site, this circle, and it means something
to me. Because it represents circle -- the
life of the people.
So I ask you, with a good heart, and I'm --
I'm pleaing to you, please don't take away
something from the next generations. Don't
take it away from the people, from your
children, and their children's children.
Because they can go back to that Circle, and
they can learn, and they can see what is in the
heart -- or what was in the heart of those
people at that time.
And I ask you, please.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
MR. GREEN: Lance Little Chief.
MR. LANCE McGEE: Hey, everybody. I'm
back.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I know. Welcome back.
MR. LANCE McGEE: Thank you.
About two weeks ago, I came and I spoke to
y'all. And I spoke directly through my heart

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN205 March 9, 1999 to your heart.
(Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
MR. LANCE McGEE: And through what I read
in the paper from the testimony that was given
to the journalists of all of the Cabinet
members, it seemed as though my tactic had
worked, that we had all opened your hearts and
spoken to you.
We understand that you must listen to both
sides of the story, because that is the
position that you hold. But today you must
make a decision, and you must side with either
side, by either granting Dade County the
resources that you have, or denying it to them.
If you grant it to them, as my dad said,
you are ensuring the future of our children,
that they shall learn and know and our
traditions may be pushed a little farther. And
the United States government and the State
government will be one step closer to holding
the stand-- holding the hands of the native
people, and being somewhat united in a way.
I would like to thank the Cabinet members
for hearing us, and for paying attention to us,
because this is the dawning of a new age for

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN206 March 9, 1999 the native people, the seventh generation of
the native people, that white and red can
finally look at each other eye to eye, and
smile and shake hands and say that we are
friends, instead of enemies.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you again.
MR. GREEN: Jose Black Eagle, followed by
Roy Two Feathers.
MR. TWO FEATHERS: I'm Roy Two Feathers. I
am Cherokee.
Thank you for hearing us.
It takes great courage to make history in
this way for all of the children, all of our
children.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for being here
again.
MR. BLACK EAGLE: Good afternoon.
I thank you for allowing me into this
country and this land. I'm an international
student from Miami-Dade. I study.
Five minutes away, the Circle is there, and I'm
sure you've been in a boat and you've seen the
Circle and -- I mean you felt the wind and --

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN207 March 9, 1999 you've been there.
I find myself speaking from my heart,
trying to speak truth. There's so many UM
students, children. Blind -- I spoke to a
blind person. They don't see, but they feel.
They feel something about it, and they say,
people need to know about it. There's essence,
there's truth in it.
I find myself speaking here. In my
country, I would not be able to speak --
GOVERNOR BUSH: What country are you from?
(Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
MR. BLACK EAGLE: Peru.
I probably be in jail, or I'll be dead.
God knows.
I have opportunity to speak to everyone
here, and I really thank you for that.
And beautiful native people, they know
truth. They -- they're the closest to the
Creator has been always since centuries. And
I'm sure you have to make political and moral
judgments. At the end we're moral persons, and
you always make moral judgments.
And I will thank you. Everyone thanks you
for making the right decision.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN208 March 9, 1999 Good day.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Jose.
MR. GREEN: Mayor Joe Carollo.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon, Mayor.
MR. CAROLLO: Good afternoon, Governor.
Thank you.
And good afternoon to all the members of
the Cabinet. Thank you for the opportunity to
be able to address you today. And we'll try to
be as brief as we can within the 2 minutes.
GOVERNOR BUSH: No. You can go a little
bit longer, I think, since --
MR. CAROLLO: We -- we appreciate it.
I have --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Since Commissioner Sorenson
did.
MR. CAROLLO: I have a great responsibility
to preserve our past, along with preserving the
memories of past generations.
But I have even a much larger
responsibility through the present generation
and future generations, present residents of
the City of Miami today.
The City of Miami, as you all know, has
been a city that its residents have sacrificed

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN209 March 9, 1999 more than just about any other group of
residents anywhere in the state of Florida in
the last few years.
We're the fourth poorest city in the
country; and at the same time, we're one of the
top five cities in the country that 30 percent
of our properties are tax exempt because
they're either nonprofits, or they're owned by
governmental agencies.
Many of our properties are owned by
Dade County government. So we've lost a
tremendous amount of revenue by carrying the
responsibilities of not only the City of Miami,
but also of Greater Miami-Dade County.
Let me try to briefly give you a brief
outlook as to what has transpired in the last
six months since the Circle was discovered.
We received a copy of a letter that was
sent to the Brickell Pointe Construction
Company, to Angelo Accetturo from Robert Carr,
on September 21st that basically outlined what
Miami-Dade County wanted the developer to do in
order for the County to give the City the okay
to give permits.
On January 21st of this year, Robert Carr

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN210 March 9, 1999 sent another letter to the developer,
Michael Baumann, with copies to the City of
Miami, that ends by saying this:
I want to again reiterate that it is our
agency's position, that of Miami-Dade County,
to not obstruct or interfere in the normal
process of your company's obtaining the
necessary permits to develop the Brickell Point
parcel.
Our goal is to maintain a balance between
the County's obligation to investigate and
preserve as much material and information about
this important site and your company's right to
develop this parcel, as allowed by current
zoning and permitting.
Lastly, a letter dated January 26th, 1999,
to Michael Baumann, again from Robert Carr. It
states the following. I'm going to go to the
key points of this letter.
It says: This is provided as a letter of
completion of our archeological investigation
effective as of February 26th, 1999. Building
permits should not be delayed relative to the
archeological issue since the remaining
recording tasks will be accomplished by

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN211 March 9, 1999 February 26. Work to be accomplished until
that date will include completing a cast of the
Circle, and possibly cutting and removing some
portions of stone.
Up to this point, there were no objections
from --
GOVERNOR BUSH: What was that date, that --
the letter you just read, what date was --
MR. CAROLLO: This last one was January 26,
1999, Mr. Governor.
Up to this point, there were no objections
from Miami-Dade County in this development in
going forward.
Up to this point, there was no mention that
the site was sacred, or any of the other
theories that have been promoted after this
letter was issued.
Some days after this letter of
January 26th, the City of Miami reached an
agreement with the developer trying to find the
medium ground on being respectful to past
residents, and at the same time being
responsible to the present residents.
And we had an agreement with the developer
that at his cost, he would excavate the -- what

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN212 March 9, 1999 is called the Circle from that site, and that
the City of Miami would be the owner of this
Circle, and that after -- we would store it so
that it could be studied, and we could truly
determine how significant it was. We could
then decide where we would want it -- to
display it, possibly Bayfront Park, right on
the other side of the Miami River where it is
presently at.
After that, we received a letter that was
sent on February 12th from Mayor Penelas of
Miami-Dade County. It was addressed to me,
with copies to the City Commission.
I'll read the key paragraph of the letter:
The Circle is not within the unincorporated
areas of the County. It is within the City of
Miami. Accordingly, it is the rightful place
of the City of Miami to take the lead on this
issue and decide how to protect its past. It
is not our intention to dictate to your
municipality what should or should not be done
at the site.
The City of Miami made clear our position
to Dade County government.
The week after this letter was sent, we had

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN213 March 9, 1999 a City Commission meeting that was attended by
the County Mayor; my friend, the County
Manager; and other members of the County
government, all friends, all neighbors.
We were told at that meeting that the only
mention when we asked -- and told them, look,
our City Attorney is telling us we will have
great liability if we get into discussions on
any of these issues, including what we think
you're here about, eminent domain.
On the record, I was told by the
County Manager that the only people that had
mentioned eminent domain were myself and the
County Attorney.
The very next day, in a press conference,
Mayor Penelas announces that he is recommending
to Miami-Dade County to take eminent domain
action on this site.
Keep in mind that the County sends this
letter to the City, they come to a meeting on
the Tuesday after this letter is sent, to tell
us that they're only there to do whatever we
want them to do, to be our partner in whatever
decision we want to make.
Within 24 hours later, they're saying

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN214 March 9, 1999 they're going to take eminent domain action on
this property.
Within 48 hours after, they, in fact, do go
into court and take and present an
eminent domain lawsuit against the developer.
But even more, to my disbelief, without
informing the City that they were going before
a judge that evening, they also filed a suit
against the City of Miami.
And they filed a suit claiming that after
all these letters that I have read to you have
stated that we should issue the permits, at no
time did they say to us not to issue the
permits.
On the contrary. If we would not have
issued the permits, we would have had great
liability. They issued and presented a lawsuit
against the City of Miami because of all
events, they're claiming that we did not issue
the permits accordingly to the intent of the
law.
On that issue, I -- Tom Tew will address
you.
But I thought it was important for me to go
through this history, because the City of Miami

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN215 March 9, 1999 has a tremendous amount at stake here. The
real main victim here are the residents of the
City of Miami that have sacrificed tremendously
with the promise that things will get better.
We have worked so hard to bring
developments to the City of Miami. You all
know how few developments there are from the
private sector, not just in Florida, but
throughout the whole country, that are
126 million dollars, like this one.
But my biggest concern is not just losing
this development, not losing the 2,000 jobs
during that construction period for this
development, not losing the approximately
million dollars or more that we would receive
every year from this development in new taxes,
not losing the multiplying effect of the
additional millions of dollars that we would
have every year from the 1500 or so new
residents that would move into the City of
Miami, into this part of downtown Miami.
But my biggest concern is the chilling
effect that this action, that has never been
seen in this fashion before, will have on
future development in all of downtown, and all

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN216 March 9, 1999 of Brickell Avenue, in the key areas that Miami
needs to survive as a city for the present
generation of Miami.
We don't know what effect it's going to
have, frankly, negative effect, on financing
institutions with other developments. And
particularly, right across the river, right
across this very site, there is a project that
is a 1 billion dollar development that Miami
needs badly that could be very much jeopardized
by the consequence of whatever might end up
happening in this particular site.
And the site across the Miami River, that
was the site that the Indians actually had
their villages. That was the -- the key sites
that history has shown that the Indians truly
spent most of their time, lived there. And
most of what went on, went on the other side of
the river.
So what -- what I'm here to -- today is to
explain to you what we have gone through. We
have done everything that the County had
requested of us. We have been good partners,
up until the point that this became, frankly, a
political circle.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN217 March 9, 1999 We have always worked well with
Dade County. I have -- personally have had a
good relationship with the County Mayor,
County Commissioners, County Manager. But we
really were not given the opportunity to deal
with this in the way that we have worked with
the County in the past.
We were told, City of Miami, this is your
city limits, it is up to you to decide which
way you go. We decided -- the rest is history
right now.
Governor, members of the Cabinet, all that
I am here is to ask for fairness for the City
of Miami residents, for the silent majority
that has sacrificed so much, that has worked so
hard to keep your flagship city of Florida as
one of the best cities, not only in this state,
but of -- in this whole country.
Miami is a city with a tremendous future.
Governor, you know that more than just
about anybody here.
It's a city that has a lot of pride, has a
lot of future. But I am truly concerned that
Miami is going to be crippled if we take the
actions of eminent domain on such a key project

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN218 March 9, 1999 such as this.
Finally, I would say that while I very much
respect many of the speakers here today, many
others in their feelings that I think they're
very sincere, we also have a responsibility to
truly ascertain what has been discovered there.
Up to now, I haven't heard with facts just what
is it that has been found here.
Obviously there are artifacts in this site,
just like there are all over downtown Miami,
just like there were in other projects that we
have built in Miami in the last couple of
decades.
But we also have a responsibility to
ascertain what is there.
And having said that, I'd like to ask, if I
may, Tom Tew, who is the legal representation
for the City on this particular issue, to come
up and to address the issue of the permitting,
which I think needs to be addressed here.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Mayor.
Tom.
MR. CAROLLO: Thank you.
MR. TEW: Governor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you do it in 2 minutes?

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN219 March 9, 1999 MR. TEW: I'll move quickly.
Governor, other Cabinet members, I have two
issues to address.
The first thing I'm passing out is a
pamphlet put together by one of my staff
members, who's an MBA, on the historical
precedent for relocation of very priceless
artifacts.
As the Mayor has outlined, the initially --
worked with the developer to relocate this --
this item, the circle, for the observa-- to
preserve it, to house it, and to an
infrastructure that would support the visitors
with their comfort and well-being such as
restrooms, food service, parking, et cetera.
And the reason that's put together, and --
with those pictures is those are some of the
world's most important artifacts. They range
from Abu Simbel, which is on the front cover,
which was moved 500 feet up a mountain.
One thousand sixty blocks were taken apart and
moved up to avoid it being flooded when they
dammed the Nile River with the Aswan Dam. That
was because you had a conflict that we have
here between development and historical

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN220 March 9, 1999 preservation. The resolution of that conflict
was to move it.
Now, the reason I have included very
religious artifacts is to avoid the ethical
question of whether we're being short stripped
to something that may be a religious monument,
may be a religious circle, and may have
significant information.
Now, there's several others. I won't bore
you with all of them.
The Temple of Dendur --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that what this is?
MR. TEW: No. Inside you've got the
Pergamon Altar that's in the Pergamon Museum in
Germany -- East Germany, now united Germany.
All of those are worldwide artifacts that
have been taken apart, relocated for
preservation to avoid being swamped by the
Aswan Dam, or to provide for their viewing at
the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you've been
into the -- one of the major rooms there that's
used for all their philanthropical fund
raising, you will see the Temple of Dendur that
was basically taken apart and reconstructed in
the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It's where all

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN221 March 9, 1999 their major functions are carried.
These are some of the options that the
Mayor was discussing with the developer. And
it's only to make the point of the historical
precedent for relocation as a practical
solution.
Now, I'd like to move briefly to what the
Govern-- Mayor mentioned about the permits.
I want to put firmly on the record that
this municipality met all of its requisite
zoning ordinances and laws as a result --
regarding historic preservation.
In 1981, the County invited its
municipalities to adopt a Historical
Preservation Code. Miami did so.
In 1988, Miami contracted with the County
to use its architectural -- I mean,
archeological people to help them with sites
that are under question. That happened.
Here, what exactly was contemplated by the
permitting process in the City of Miami worked.
The City of Miami's Master Use Plan required
the developer to monitor the site and to advise
archeologists of any finding.
They did that. Mr. Carr was invited on the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN222 March 9, 1999 property, spent months on the property. And as
you heard from the Mayor's recital of that
letter, basically said, quote, building permit
should not be delayed relative to this
archeological issue. That's January 26, 1999.
The system worked. We have complied with
our zoning matters.
What the County would now do is to reach
out and tell us how to enforce our own zoning
codes. They would reach out and retreat from
their public position that if it was a part of
unincorporated Dade, they would have the
jurisdiction.
Now they would like to enforce our zoning
codes for a very transparent reason. The
reason they sued us is to drive the price down
in the eminent domain, in my humble opinion.
We have been sued, and -- and they have
basically argued that we have not complied with
our own zoning.
I would cite you only to the letter that is
Exhibit 1 in my handout from Mr. Carr.
In closing, this municipality has
rigorously, on numerous occasions, worked with
Mr. Carr on other sites, and have essentially

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN223 March 9, 1999 used the process of subcontracting to the
County the archeological needs that we had.
This worked, the developer was scrupulously
honest in dealing with the County, he invited
them on the premises, they dealt with it. And
now we are named as a defendant in Count Two of
the eminent domain suit.
I submit only for the purpose of trying to
effect value.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Tom.
We may have -- after we finish, I think
there'll be some questions about that
particular couple of points that were made. If
the County's prepared to answer them, I'd be
grateful.
MR. GREEN: Vicky Garcia.
MS. GARCIA-TOLEDO: Good afternoon.
I have been involved as a developer's
attorney on this project since 1994, where
Michael Baumann and his partners came and said,
we have a vision, and we want to follow the
City of Miami code in order to get this project
approved.
The project -- and I believe that some

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN224 March 9, 1999 handouts are before you -- is two towers of
residential rental property consisting of
600 apartment units.
That process required in the City of Miami
several months of public hearing. To be exact,
the procedure known as a major use special
permit, which is the all-encompassing highest
ranking permit in the City code.
That process calls for four to five City
public hearings. And because of the waterfront
aspects of this project, it also required
review by Dade County. Dade County, as well as
the City of Miami, approved this project at
each and every step.
It is important also in your deliberations
for you to be aware that a building permit was
issued, that this project is fully vested, that
in order to obtain that building permit, the
developer paid impact fees to Metropolitan
Dade County, as well as the City of Miami, of
approximately 1.3 million dollars.
There is another issue here by this
challenge of what we refer to as Count Two of
the lawsuit, which has some very tremendous
public policy issues.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN225 March 9, 1999 The City of Miami has followed this process
with each and every major project in its city
for the last 20 years. Were the County to
prevail in this veiled attempt at challenging
those permits for the sake of lowering the
valuation, every permit that has ever been
issued by the City of Miami under this
procedure would be questioned.
I don't need to tell you the nightmare that
we're talking about with all of those
certificate of occupancies that are out there
on these buildings that create our skyline of
Miami, and the questions that bankers, mortgage
holders, insurance companies are going to have
as to what they now have in hand.
And I don't think the City, the County, or
this state can withstand the liability, the
open-ended liability that would be raised by
that issue.
I would ask you to think about these
issue -- these very real public policy issues
in any deliberations you take today.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: The next speaker is

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN226 March 9, 1999 Alan Eichenbaum, followed by Richard Weiner.
MR. EICHENBAUM: Good afternoon, Governor,
members of the Cabinet.
My name is Alan Eichenbaum, and I'm an
attorney. And I represent the South Florida
Electrical Workers Pension Plan.
And our pension plan is one of four pension
plans that actually provided the capital to buy
this particular piece of property.
We invested in this piece of property for
two reasons. One, it's the retirement money of
our pensioners, and we use this money,
hopefully with a return, to pay their benefits
and to provide them increased benefits.
The second reason, the ancillary reason,
was to put our members to work, which also
builds our pension plan.
Just to tell you who we are, we are a trust
fund governed by ERISA, which is the Employees'
Retirement Income Security Act. It's a Federal
law, and we are trustees and fiduciaries, and
we have the duty to administer the plan.
Really who we are though is essentially
four electricians and four electrical
contractors who manage all the monies of -- of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN227 March 9, 1999 our particular beneficiaries. Essentially our
participants are people whose legacy of labor
essentially is building the buildings in south
Florida, and providing the electrical circuitry
for the light, heat, and power in all of these
buildings. That is the legacy they leave.
Our responsibility as trustees is to make
sure that their pension benefits, that their
retirement benefits are paid. And what -- all
we're trying to accomplish here is to get our
pension benefits protected; to have a return on
our investment; and if there's a determination
made that this property's going to be sold,
that we be given the fair value for it.
Our preference is to put our people to
work. That's our job, and the other part of
the job is to get a return on our investment.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. WEINER: Richard Weiner,
Sugarman & Susskind. We also represent, our
law firm, three different sets of pension funds
that have invested millions of dollars in
this -- in this process of Brickell Point.
Mr. Governor, members of the Cabinet, I

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN228 March 9, 1999 echo the sentiments which have been aired by
Mr. Eichenbaum regarding the jobs, the
retirement investments. And I sat here
listening. With all due respect, you hear the
term sacred bandied about. No question.
Whether it's sacred, we don't know. We don't
know what is on that property at this point.
But what is sacred to our clients, which
our pension funds have invested their monies,
in excess of 10 million dollars on this
project, is to get a return investment for
working people, working people that have sweat,
toiled, bled for the City of Miami and the
County of Miami-Dade to build that town, to
keep it going.
They have their families there, they keep
their jobs, they feed their families, they send
them to schools locally.
We have people that are dedicated to Miami
and Miami-Dade County. And we have to provide,
it is our sacred duty, our clients as trustees,
to provide retirement so that they can retire
and stay in the same standard of living there.
We ask you, while you're deliberating, to
consider those working people, consider those

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN229 March 9, 1999 people that are retired, consider the impact of
this whole process on them so that we can get
this project going forward, and we can earn a
reasonable return on our -- on our investment
in this project.
We want to get jobs, and we need to make
sure, as fiduciaries, our sacred oath to those
retirees, that we earn reasonable returns on
their investments so they can retire.
Thank you, Mr. --
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
MR. GREEN: Phil Trucks and Toby Brigham.
MR. BRIGHAM: Your Honors, my name is
Toby Brigham. I'm an eminent domain trial
lawyer.
And if it is determined that it is
important and reasonably necessary to acquire
this property to preserve historic values, then
it is also necessary to preserve the
constitutional principles that there's a right
way to do it.
And the right way to do it is not to seek
to depreciate the property by attacking the
permits. The right way to do it is not to

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN230 March 9, 1999 villainize the owner.
But the right way to do it is to proceed to
have the necessary money in hand before you
file the condemnation suit, and not to use a
slow taking which could destroy the project,
and which could visit upon the public treasury
the damages that would be caused to the owner
by the delay.
So, Your Honors, we ask whatever decision
you make in this matter, that you do it
quickly, and you decide so that the parties can
sort out the way that would be right to do it.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Toby, can I ask you a
question?
MR. BRIGHAM: Certainly.
GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- what would you --
help me out here, being new on the job, on what
the -- how value would be established in a
eminent domain proceeding. Real quick.
MR. BRIGHAM: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: And I know this is right up
your power alley. But --
MR. BRIGHAM: You have pictures of the
600 unit apartment building project. That

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN231 March 9, 1999 is -- while it has not broken ground, or the
skyline image has not -- is not visible, much
of the work to its accomplishment has been
achieved. And, therefore, much of its value
has been earned.
So that this owner should receive what
market evidence would indicate someone would
pay to take over the position of the owner and
complete the project.
And that depends upon two things: Are
there sales of properties that are purchased in
the course of construction that you could
compare to this and reach a value; or will the
income stream that this building will produce,
when completed, brought to a present worth,
less the cost of completing it, and the
discounts for the marketing and the time it
takes, equal a -- a given sum which the market
evidence would show that -- that these --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't you also discount for
risk?
MR. BRIGHAM: You discount for risk.
That's in the capitalization rate. Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
MR. BRIGHAM: And that is what the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN232 March 9, 1999 thousands of investors in this project, through
the labor unions, are expecting to receive.
They're not seeking public money. They believe
they can earn this themselves in the
marketplace.
But if it is determined that others should
own this property, they have the choice of
completing the project and earning that money;
or if they wish to devote it to historic
preservation, then that money should be paid to
these owners.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. TRUCKS: Governor, members of the
Cabinet, thank you.
My name is Phil Trucks. I'm a -- the
President of the Miami Building Trades Council,
and also business manager of Plumbers Local 519
in Miami. And also Chairman of the pension
fund which is a partner in this.
I'm here to speak just for -- on behalf of
the workers of Dade County that are sitting,
waiting on this job. As you know, Dade County
has one of the highest unemployment rates, not
only in the state, but around the country.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN233 March 9, 1999 And as a right to work state, I'd like to
remind you, it is not limited only to union
workers. That anybody's allowed to come out
here and work on this job.
So on behalf of the workers, let's --
there's been an offer by the developer to move
this, build the building, which helps the
workers, helps the people that would like to go
see this, and also helps the City of Miami. So
there's an offer on the table by the developer.
And I just thank you for your time.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Merrett Stierheim, followed by
Bob Carr.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome, Merrett.
MR. STIERHEIM: Thank you, Governor.
Distinguished members of the Cabinet,
Governor, it's a pleasure to be with you.
I was going to be brief, but with some of
the things that I've heard, I -- I need to just
offer a few, I hope, corrections.
This all began with the County Commission
on I believe it was January 26th. They asked
me to head up a task force at a Commission
meeting. I gathered a group of people together

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN234 March 9, 1999 rather quickly that day, that afternoon about
2:30 or 3:00.
I called Mayor Carollo at 4:00 in the
afternoon that same day to advise him of
everything that was happening, because I
thought it was important that the City be
informed and advised.
The -- we had a second meeting at which the
City of Miami was represented. There were
three people there from the City. The owner of
the property, or the developer, was
represented.
We asked four questions at that meeting:
Could we have our structural engineers meet
with your architects to possibly redesign the
building or build around the Circle.
Could we bring archeologists in to look at
the remainder of the land outside of the
50 feet to determine if there were other
circles, if there were other archeologically
significant remains there, and so forth.
And other questions.
The answers to all of those questions was
categorically, no. You may not go beyond the
50 feet, you may not bring other architect--

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN235 March 9, 1999 archeologists in, you cannot meet with our
architects or engineers to explore these other
options.
So we were sort of given an ultimatum. And
the clock was ticking on how soon equipment
would be on the site, and -- and the project
would begin.
Mayor Penelas, Commissioner Sorenson, and I
went to the City Commission, and we went there
seeking cooperation, and -- and --
(Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)
MR. STIERHEIM: -- and hopefully to join
forces on this what we think is a -- is a very
significant --
I wish that your staff or you could see the
tape of that meeting. Candidly, it wasn't the
best meeting.
We were essentially sent home with the
direction that they would not cooperate with us
unless the County gave the City a total hold
harmless clause, totally hold harmless, and
some other caveats. Okay?
Time was closing in. There was equipment
going on the site.
We then had a Commission meeting, and the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN236 March 9, 1999 Commission, with the Mayor, the next day --
Mayor Carollo is correct -- after we heard the
City's position, and we realized that time was
closing in, we had to move.
And the Commission, with -- I mean
tremendous unanimity, there was one no vote,
ten -- ten or eleven yes votes, and the Mayor
voted overwhelmingly to proceed with
condemnation and a slow take.
And they acted out of a sense of emergency,
or otherwise the developer had made it clear,
he was going on -- he'd hired a stone mason,
they were going to cut this up and haul it up.
Okay? So you have to understand the atmosphere
within which all of this took place.
Now, I think I'm somewhat qualified on the
City's finances. As some of you may not be
aware, I -- the good Mayor Joe invited me over
there for what I thought would be a short turn
holding the tiller. They'd already adopted a
budget on first reading.
Within 24 hours, I found a
35 million dollar shortfall. And then shortly
thereafter it was 68 million. I -- I had the
pleasure of -- of giving the City a recommended

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN237 March 9, 1999 recovery plan, which they are still following,
and the Oversight Board is still using, and I'm
happy about that.
And I'm very sensitive to the need for
additional revenue. So I can empathize with
Mayor Carollo. And yet, in my mind, we're
talking about apples and bananas here. We have
something that is priceless. Absolutely
priceless.
And I -- I'm not going to repeat the
testimony you've already heard. I know there
were people up here speaking from the heart.
But we can also speak from the brain about the
importance of what this is for future
generations.
We tried to cooperate with the developer;
we tried to cooperate with the City; and,
candidly, the door was shut.
There are serious questions. Whatever that
permit process is is a matter of public record.
Either it was correct or it was incorrect.
But I can tell you, after sending --
spending nine years on Brickell Avenue, just a
few hundred feet from this site, the traffic
coming out of that hotel, 600 rooms, at the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN238 March 9, 1999 foot of the Miami Avenue bridge, where we have
monumental traffic tie-ups, the bridge is --
even though it was raised, elevation, still
goes up all the time.
And you're going to have another
1200 people in this development. So I don't
know what traffic analyses were made. But
I think that's a -- a legitimate question.
And the Heritage Trust is the one that
raised the question when they filed their
lawsuit, with no knowledge of -- of the County.
None of us were involved. That issue is still
before the Court. And, you know, I don't know
where it's going. But I think it's a valid
question.
The Commission debated at length slow take
versus quick take. Overwhelmingly, there was
no question in our mind that we needed time
here. We were being pressed. We needed time
to raise the money, we needed time to determine
what else is on that site.
We have petitioned the Court for the right
to go on that site and look, either with
seismological, x-ray equipment, and to see what
else is there so we know what we're dealing

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN239 March 9, 1999 with.
I mean, we can always mediate, we can
always discuss at some point down the road.
But right now, we're trying to find out what
we're dealing with beyond the Circle. We think
there's more there. We don't know for sure.
I want to say that on the subject of the
money -- and we're very enthusiastic about your
staff's recommendation. We heartily endorse
it. We hope that you do, too.
I have had discussions with two
foundations, which -- and very positive, both
with the principals of the foundation and their
attorneys, as recently as two days ago, with
both groups, that would generate, if approved,
and I know -- I don't like unfulfilled
expectations, but there's every encouragement
that we could raise between nine and
thirteen million dollars from those two
foundations.
We are organizing other fund raising
activities. There is an effort that -- that's
about to get underway in the schools. And
these things take time. Not something can be
happen -- you know, happen overnight.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN240 March 9, 1999 We really want to partner with the State.
We think there's a wonderful opportunity. We
want to partner with the Native American
leadership foundations, the private sector, and
preserve this for posterity.
Thank you, Governor, and --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Merrett.
MR. STIERHEIM: -- members of the Cabinet.
MR. GREEN: Bob Carr.
MR. CARR: My name is Bob Carr. I'm glad
to be back. I'm the Director of the Miami-Dade
Historic Preservation Division.
And I'm here to present the scientific
aspect of this discovery. You heard much of
this the last time, so I won't reiterate it.
What I will tell you today is that the
first two radio carbon dates were finally
determined by Beta Analytic Lab in Miami.
Those results were provided yesterday morning.
And specifically one of the dates of
charcoal, which came from one of the basins
within -- or characterizing the Circle -- and
this is important because there have been some
statements made by other people suggesting
perhaps that the Circle was much more recent,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN241 March 9, 1999 and not at all prehistoric.
That particular radio carbon date
indicated -- it represented a range of 365 B.C.
to A.D. 415. In other words, an average mean
date of A.D. 25, almost 2,000 years ago.
The second date that we used was another
piece of charcoal that was from within the
Circle. That piece of charcoal came out to
represent a range of dates of high probability
of falling in between 45 B.C. to A.D. 245, with
a mean date of A.D. 145.
So, again, statistically, the two are
actually the same. But it certainly affirms
the antiquity of the site and reenforces the
fact that this site is certainly of some
chronological significance.
I can tell you again that experts have
looked at the site, and the question of
significance really is not going to be a
complex one in terms of indicating what is
there.
Obviously we don't know exactly what's on
other parts of the site, and that may happen as
a result of this process, or other things that
may be part of this agreement.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN242 March 9, 1999 And I would like to add, don't be dissuaded
by what seems like the County and the City's
dirty laundry being brought up here in terms
of -- of these apparent disagreements, because
I can assure you that beneath -- beneath the
laundry is -- is the real true gem. And that
is the Circle.
And that is -- to remind you again, that in
this process of approving and moving forward
with this Emergency Acquisition Act, that as
you know, within that ordinance, there is the
provision that all of these differences, all of
this litigation, has to be resolved before that
money can be released.
And to me, that will be part of the impetus
for helping resolve some of these differences
of perspective and opinion.
Obviously the public need here has been
identified, but we don't lose sight of the fact
that there are private rights, property rights
that need to be respected as well.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Carr, can --
MR. CARR: Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- have this -- these dates
are incredible.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN243 March 9, 1999 MR. CARR: Well, I was pleasantly surprised
that they were --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I have to --
MR. CARR: -- so consistent.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- in any other testing
done on any other sites that you're -- in
Dade County you're aware of, those kind of
dates come --
MR. CARR: Well, there have been other
sites in Dade County that have been as old, if
not older. So I don't want to mislead you --
GOVERNOR BUSH: They have been as old?
MR. CARR: Yes. So I don't want to mislead
you and make you think that this is the oldest
site in Dade County.
No. What -- what this is is just powerful
scientific testimony that this particular site
is very, very ancient, and that this Circle may
be as old as --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a peer review
process that one goes through in these
archeological --
MR. CARR: What will happen --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is someone validating this?
MR. CARR: Yes. That's a good question.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN244 March 9, 1999 We have invited other scholars to come out
there. Now, because of the controversy, many
of the ones that have shown up at the site have
not been allowed to come on it and visit.
But up through January, we had Dr. Bill --
Dr. William Sturtevant from the Smithsonian,
Dr. Widmer from the -- from Houston University,
Dr. Gifford --
(Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
MR. CARR: -- from the University of Miami.
And when things become more or less open
again, you'll see other scholars going out and
reviewing it.
So far the three scholars who have been
there, have been fanatic -- fanatic for
scientists in reenforcing the significance of
the site.
We will generate an interim report within
the next 30 days about what we have found, and
eventually there'll be much more extensive
reports. And all that will go through
different levels of peer review, including your
own State archeologists, who have also reviewed
the information that we have provided them.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How old is the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN245 March 9, 1999 coral that this is carved out of?
MR. CARR: The limestone is actually
one hundred to one hundred and twenty-five
thousand years. It is a geologic formation.
You know, it has nothing to do with the
antiquity of the site.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I know that.
It's carved in there, right?
MR. CARR: Right.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And so it's --
it's age is what?
MR. CARR: One hundred thousand to a
hundred and twenty-five thousand years old.
It's called Miami oolitic limestone.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay.
MR. CARR: Okay. Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MS. MATKOV: Good afternoon, Governor Bush,
and Cabinet members. I'm Becky Roper Matkov,
Executive Director of Dade Heritage Trust,
Miami-Dade County's largest historic
preservation, nonprofit organization.
The last two months, we have been working
virtually nonstop to spearhead grassroots
efforts to save our Circle, to preserve this

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN246 March 9, 1999 one-of-a-kind archeological site.
The support for the Circle has come from
every direction. The miamicircle.com web site
has received 10,000 hits a day. And Dade
Heritage Trust has been deluged with calls from
around the world, from Finland, from Australia.
A lawyer will call from California offering
free legal advice, Zuni dancers want to come
and give a benefit performance.
We have students from New Orleans coming
down to Miami for the first time just to see
the Circle. We have volunteers staging
candlelight vigils every Tuesday night.
And we even had an ad agency donate a
slogan for t-shirts saying: Histry,
H-i-s-t-r-y, It's Not the Same Without the
Complete Story. Save the Circle, the O.
Seldom has a preservation issue --
I have more t-shirts for the Cabinet
members.
Seldom has a preservation issue granted --
generated such an outpouring of concern, and
caught the imagination of so many.
I'd like to present to y'all a packet of
newspaper clippings from the hundreds of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN247 March 9, 1999 articles that have appeared in local media, as
well as across the country, and from the
countless television and radio shows that have
all featured the Circle.
And I'd like to present to y'all these
petitions signed by 2,585 people of all ages
and places. And these are only the beginning.
Hundreds more we are receiving every single
day.
If I could give you those.
School children, historians, businessmen,
spiritualists, even pro bono attorneys, people
of all races and cultural backgrounds have
united in efforts to preserve the integrity of
this mysterious circle --
(Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
MS. MATKOV: -- that dates back centuries
before Europeans reached the shores of this
continent.
We so appreciate the courage and vision
displayed by Mayor Penelas and
Commissioner Sorenson and the Miami-Dade
Commission for taking a strong stand to
preserve this site.
And we appreciate Secretary

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN248 March 9, 1999 Katherine Harris for coming down to Miami to
represent the State and address the
County Commission.
We appreciated your doing that.
And we are grateful for you, Governor Bush,
for your taking the time to devote personal
attention to this issue. And for your staff's
recommendation today to help fund the
acquisition of this site.
Historic preservation projects across the
country and throughout the state of Florida
have enhanced the cultural riches of countless
communities, and their economic bases as well.
In fact, Florida's historic preservation
program is a national model, acclaimed at
national trust conferences I've attended
everywhere from San Francisco to Boston, put up
as a beautiful example of the effectiveness and
its economic revitalization benefits.
Saving historic sites; incorporating them
into the texture of our modern lives; leaves a
legacy for our children and gives us all,
newcomers and old-timers alike, a feeling of
roots, a sense of community.
And in the long run, in the big picture,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN249 March 9, 1999 it's good for business.
You all today have an incredible
opportunity, perhaps a once in a lifetime
opportunity, to save an historic site that is
quite simply irreplaceable.
We urge you all to make a vision a reality
today by providing funds that will save the
Circle for future generations. To lose it
forever to concrete would be a tragedy.
Thank you.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Becky.
MR. MEJIA: Governor Bush, Cabinet, I
wanted to make one other point that's kind of
important.
When we see what we're doing here, and I --
hearing the lawyers and the different people
that spoke, I want to make just a point that
the City of Miami, Dade County, the State of
Florida is not alone in this fund raising
effort.
I want to make a commitment here that our
organization, along with other people -- even
Susan has agreed also to help in the fund
raising efforts for this.
I want to point something out.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN250 March 9, 1999 I'm -- I'm a journalist. And I got a call
from National Geographic. They had brought --
one of their archeologists had seen this site,
a man named George Stewart out of
North Carolina.
They were in shock -- I'll tell you shock,
when they heard what I was telling them --
what's the potential reality of what would
happen to this site.
So I just want to just really point out
that we're going to make an important decision
here -- or your Cabinet will make an important
decision.
And I think it's important that we give a
message to the world, and to everybody in the
future what the State of Florida, City of
Miami, the County really thinks about our
history, and also the point of view from the
Native American.
But more important, just realize that
you're not alone in this fight, and I think
we'll do the right thing.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MS. ANDERSON: Just briefly to add my voice
to that.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN251 March 9, 1999 I've worked as Executive --
Executive Director for nonprofit organizations
and raised funds for less enthusiastic
projects, shall we say, than this one.
And I've made a personal commitment as a
representative of the Native American community
to act as a fund raiser, and to raise funds for
this. And make a dedication to that. It
doesn't -- it won't be a hard thing to raise
funds for. As the County has already
determined.
Just wanted to let you know that.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Governor, that completes the
speakers.
And we're on the item.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, if I
could make a -- just a couple comments, then
I'd like to maybe make a motion.
First on the -- on the -- the rule -- the
role of the City. I -- I haven't studied the
permitting process, but my gut tells me the
City did everything correctly, and this person
has a valid permit.
And I wish -- I wish the County had not

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN252 March 9, 1999 filed the lawsuit. I think that was probably
ill-advised. I'm sure they had quick legal
strategy in that.
But property rights are important, they can
be trampled on, just like I think we can't
trample on our heritage. And so while I may
differ with the City on some things, I think
the criticism of them not following the permits
is correct.
I was -- I was -- I was terribly moved at
the last meeting we had when the speakers came
here and -- and at that point we were talking
about Katherine Harris had a --
Secretary Harris had a 2 million dollar
proposal.
And when I came to that meeting, I wasn't
sure about the 2 million. But by the time I
got out of that meeting, I was ready for the
2 million and a lot more, because I -- I saw
the importance of it.
Then you get to a question of how much is a
lot more. And I'm hearing a lot of big numbers
around. And at some point, you know, you've
got to -- you've got to be sensible about this,
you've got to make sure everything is -- is

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN253 March 9, 1999 balanced. We don't have an unlimited checkbook
with our land purchases. And a lot -- a lot of
great projects that we're trying to acquire in
this state. And I'd like for -- like for this
to be one.
But I'd like to move the staff
recommendation with -- with a caveat. And the
caveat would be that the LAMAC Committee
approves the addition of the Miami Circle -- if
the LAMAC Committee approves the addition of
the Miami Circle to the CARL list, the State
will pay up to our appraised value, or
50 percent of the purchase price, whichever is
less.
Additionally that Miami-Dade County and the
Native American communities financially
participate in the acquisition, the restoration
of the site.
The item is likely to be scheduled to come
back to the Governor and Cabinet on the
May 25th Cabinet meeting. By that time, I'd
like to see Miami-Dade County and the
Native American community financially commit to
the partnership in the form of a resolution or
agreement, whichever is appropriate.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN254 March 9, 1999 This might lead us to a discussion of quick
take process, and we might want to discuss that
as well as this -- as this motion.
But that would be, I think, the financially
responsible way for the State to proceed, and
I think it makes a commitment, gets the ball
rolling, and makes this happen.
GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion.
Is there a second?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
And also a question, Governor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Bob, are you
saying that -- that for right now, it stays as
a slow take, which is what the County wants,
but they only -- we can readdress it later
for -- for perhaps a -- a quick take, is
that --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think a quick
take. I mean, this has -- this has got to move
quickly. The -- you've got a landowner out
there who's kind of at the mercy of what's
happening here. And so the faster this comes
together, the better it is for everybody.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But you

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN255 March 9, 1999 don't mind a -- a slow take for now, because --
that's -- as the County Manager stated, he
wants to see what he has there, and then when
we find that out, hopefully pretty quickly,
we --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- can make
it a quick take. But for right now, I feel
more comfortable keeping it as a slow take.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right. That's --
that's -- that's what I was thinking.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
That's --
I second it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion?
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: A little -- a little
bit of a concern. I -- I have a note to myself
here that staff is not comfortable with how
much money might be available. Doesn't know
how much money might be available.
I -- I guess -- I guess we ought to at
least caveat it with the idea of providing it
that the -- that the funds are available.
I mean, the Lord knows where this thing may
lead. And we better not commit ourselves to

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN256 March 9, 1999 more resources than we have in the -- in the
pot right now.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Kirby, would you like to
comment on that?
MR. GREEN: Well, in the current year's
workplan, the funding that would be available
would be funding that was not attributed to
another project that we weren't in negotiations
on, or -- or hadn't moved forward in the
appropriation process.
So in this -- in this year's funds, this
current year's funds, there may be a limited
amount available. Maybe -- maybe 10 million,
maybe 15 million.
If we get into next year's funds, and after
July, there may be the ability to -- to put
much more funds into the program up-front
instead of after -- after we look at all the
other acquisitions. So we can factor that into
next year's workplan, to put a reasonable
amount of money in it.
But, you're right, at this point in time,
if we were -- if we had to commit funds at this
date, it would be a small amount. It would
probably be in the 15 million dollar range.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN257 March 9, 1999 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That might have an
impact then on the quick take and what you
might want to -- or not --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well -- go ahead, Tom.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What -- I didn't
hear anything in this motion about who's going
to be owning this property.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Green.
MR. GREEN: Well, if -- if we commit money
to it, normally the State would take title --
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's what --
MR. GREEN: -- to the property.
COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- I thought. And
I just want everybody in the audience to
realize that that's normally what happens,
unless there's some other agreement or other
thing done.
So it's real hard to get money out of this
place without ownership coming to it. So --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I would suggest that we
think outside the box here on this, because
this is not the typical real estate that the
State purchases. And I also think that we
ought to make this resolution a catalyst for
the City and the County and the community to

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN258 March 9, 1999 work together.
My hometown is -- I will say, with great
prejudice, I'm very prejudiced towards Miami, I
love it dearly. It is the most difficult place
for consensus to be built than any place on the
planet.
And it is time for people to start working
together on this, and not have this be
constantly where there's friction all the time.
And if people think that the State is going
to bail out everybody just because you guys
can't get together, I think that would be a
mistake.
And I -- I -- so I think this resolution
does that. It provides a catalyst hopefully
for the local community to get together.
And I had a question that related to --
Merrett, you made a statement about how you
first proposed to the developer that perhaps
a -- redesign the building and build around
this. And the developer rejected that notion
because they had a -- he had a binding permit
and wanted to go forward.
Have -- have you asked that question now
that there's an impasse? And is that something

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN259 March 9, 1999 that would be a viable option where there may
be a win-win.
MR. STIERHEIM: As I -- as I said, even
though we are in court, motions have been
filed, nothing precludes the parties from
sitting down and talking about alternatives.
I mean, there was collegiality out in the
hall, we all know each other. I mean, I think
we would be happy to sit and review
alternatives.
I think our position right now is that we
really want to know what's on the rest of the
land. And I would think the Cabinet would want
to know that --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely.
MR. STIERHEIM: -- your officers. And that
would have an influence on what options were
available.
And so the answer is -- and my counsel is
here.
Would you disagree, Tom, that we are
prepared to sit and talk? I think there have
already been informal discussions with Toby
and -- and some of the parties.
Tom Goldstein is the Assistant County

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN260 March 9, 1999 Attorney.
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Governor, members of the
Cabinet, Tom Goldstein, Assistant County
Attorney for Dade -- Miami-Dade County.
We have from the beginning said that we
want to move this along as quickly as possible,
including getting together with them as soon as
possible to discuss whatev-- whatever it is.
All the issues are on the table. Every
issue we have is on the table, including those
issues that were discussed prior to the action
taken by Miami-Dade County.
In fact, we've said from the beginning --
right after we filed the suit on Thursday, I
sent them a courtesy copy Friday of the Request
for Production for all the information we would
need to give to our appraiser so he could make
a really good fair market value appraisal of
the property so we would have something to sit
down and discuss.
I sent it formal on Monday, requested that
they please respond as soon as possible. And
I've been indicated -- although it's been
two weeks since I've made that request, that
that information would be forthcoming in a very

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN261 March 9, 1999 quick manner.
In dealing with the quick take issue,
you know, there's nothing preventing us from
going to the Court early on in this process.
And in the same time a quick take normally
takes to get in front of a judge, we could
actually probably have a jury trial if it gets
to that.
So we're trying to proceed as fast as
possible, as fast as responses we get from the
other side, and work with them.
MR. STIERHEIM: One quick footnote. We
were aware of the State ownership. Many times
the State then leases it to a county or a city
or some jurisdiction that the State is
comfortable with.
One of the foundations that we're dealing
with -- and I hesitate to say who it is -- but
is very actively involved in the antiquities,
has a -- a natural affinity for what the
Circle, what this property represents. And
when I said partnering, there could be other
partners --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
MR. STIERHEIM: -- and we could really do

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN262 March 9, 1999 something very exciting. Then in the end,
I think the opportunity is there that something
that the City would be proud of. I believe
that opportunity is there. And is real.
Thank you.
MR. GREEN: Governor, Barry Silver also
has --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
MR. GREEN: -- something to add to this.
MR. SILVER: Mr. Governor, I represent the
Native Americans, many of whom have asked me to
represent them in litigation.
And I would like to say that categorically,
every Native American that I have ever spoken
to is absolutely against any compromise of this
project in which someone will build around that
circle.
That -- that suggestion is totally
unacceptable to my clients. The
Native Americans have had so much of their land
misappropriated by the government. That
2.2 acres is a very, very small amount of land
to leave to them.
And the laws of the state of Florida that
have been crafted to protect historical sites,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN263 March 9, 1999 the City code, the Federal laws that protect
archeological sites, and international law, all
of them require that this astounding site be
preserved.
And with so many times laws having been
broken in regards to the Native Americans, we
have an obligation now to say, we can be
trusted, the government officials can be
trusted, our laws mean something.
And when the United States tells other
people in other countries how they should deal
with their indigenous peoples, that we should
be able to speak with moral authority by saying
that we respect our laws and our indigenous
peoples, and, therefore, we will be able to
speak out on other issues as well.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
Mr. Tew.
MR. TEW: Just very briefly.
I -- I think the olive branch has certainly
been extended both ways. But the thing where
the rubber meets the road is when the County
has brought a suit against the City alleging
that it failed to follow its historical
preservation option.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN264 March 9, 1999 Now, that exceeds just this project. That
brings the whole question of municipal
sovereignty with the County. That's the
sticking point. It's not the sticking point
because we're not involved.
We did not bring an eminent domain suit.
We can't afford it. We step back. We went to
the solution we could afford, relocation,
because the developer offered that.
We talked about redevelopment, because
that's what we could afford. But now that
we're in it, they don't want to pay my fees to
come up here and argue about this. The City
doesn't want to be involved in being sued over
the administration of its own code. That's
what's brought this to a boil within the City's
perspective.
If they want a quick take or slow take, let
it be between the County and the developer, and
let them hold us harmless. It just happens to
be in our jurisdiction. Let them hold us
harmless if they're in good faith about wanting
to get to the bottom line value and make a
decision.
Because the County has the right, you know,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN265 March 9, 1999 and you all have the right, if you want it, for
the citizens of the state of Florida, and for
perpetuity, write the man a check, and don't
sue us.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, one more comment.
That -- I want to emphasize this, because
out of respect of the -- the people that have
spoken, not on the dollars and cents of this,
but about the spiritual side of this.
I think it is really important that
given -- if this site has the kind of
historical significance that it appears to, and
it's appropriate to really make sure that we --
we do use whatever means we have to determine
that, that all the parties, the State, the
City, the County, the developer be cognizant of
the fact that this is a powerful thing.
And from my perspective, I'm going to take
that part of this as seriously as the dollars
and cents. First point.
The second point, we've been talking about
heritage and tradition. There is a very
important tradition in this country, which is
the Bill of Rights. And embedded in that Bill
of Rights is the respect for property as well.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN266 March 9, 1999 And I cannot imagine that we cannot figure
out a way together, with a little bit of
patience, we cannot figure out a way to solve
this problem, being respectful of both
heritages at the same time.
If we can't do that, then we're going to
end up failing a historic opportunity.
And so that's -- end of -- end of spiel.
Someone likes that. Toby Brigham likes it.
So there's a motion and a second.
Any other -- any other comments?
All in favor?
THE CABINET: Aye.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed.
Motion carries.
Thank you all very much. We appreciate you
coming.
MR. GREEN: Back to Item 1.
(Commissioner Gallagher and Treasurer
Nelson exited the room.)
GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 1.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. GREEN: Item 1 --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
MR. GREEN: -- consideration of a

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN267 March 9, 1999 settlement agreement.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 2, deferral
until April 27th.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion,
defer.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's
approved.
MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 3, application
for a five-year special event sovereignty
submerged land lease.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there motion?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's
approved.
MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 4, recommend
deferral.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN268 March 9, 1999 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Item 5, request to issue a
quitclaim deed.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Item 6, agree with a modified
restriction to allow the Florida Department of
Transportation to improve State Road 600, and
issuance of a nonexclusive easement to the
Florida Department of Transportation.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 7, recommend
deferral.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN269 March 9, 1999 Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Item 8, acceptance of
assignment of an option agreement.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Item 9, two purchase agreements
to acquire 1.41 acres.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's approved.
MR. GREEN: Item 10, purchase agreement to
acquire approximately --
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's a nightclub --
MR. GREEN: -- 9 acres.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we're shutting down
here.
Excuse me.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: The
microphone is on, Governor.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN270 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. What was the
item we're on?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It's on the
Internet --
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been a long day.
MR. GREEN: It's Item 10 --
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
Holmes Braddock High School is listening to
this.
MR. GREEN: -- purchase agreement.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
GOVERNOR BUSH: You think they're still
listening?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I don't
know.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
Without objection, it's --
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We'll find
out when you get your e-mail tonight.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, Lord.
MR. GREEN: And Item 12 is a presentation
on Conservation and Recreation and Land --
Lands selection and acquisition process.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll be
right back, Governor.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN271 March 9, 1999 MR. GREEN: Deputy Struhs.
GOVERNOR BUSH: David.
MR. GREEN: Secretary Struhs. I'm sorry.
MR. STRUHS: Kirby introduced me as
Deputy Struhs. I'm not sure.
MR. GREEN: It's been a long day.
MR. STRUHS: It has.
Well, thank -- thank you. I know it's been
a long meeting.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Great timing for this
presentation. I'm --
MR. STRUHS: I --
(Attorney General Butterworth exited the
room.)
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah, we all look
very attentive.
MR. STRUHS: Would you -- would you rather
postpone this?
GOVERNOR BUSH: No, I think we should do
it, because --
MR. STRUHS: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we've postponed it
twice, and we're getting into the session, and
there's actually some serious policy questions
that are going to be discussed in the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN272 March 9, 1999 Florida Forever --
MR. STRUHS: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- or whatever version --
whatever the new name is.
And -- and I think it's important to go
through this.
MR. STRUHS: All right.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm -- I'm sticking around.
I've cancelled --
MR. STRUHS: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the rest of my
afternoon.
MR. STRUHS: Well, as -- as you all know --
you should know, Governor Bush directed us to
review land acquisition practices in the state
of Florida, and to make some suggested
improvements.
Clearly this is an appropriate time for
that kind of instruction, because we have a new
Cabinet; you have a new Secretary at DEP; and
most important, we're wrapping up the final
year of P2000, and on the brink of a new
10-year commitment to land preservation and
management. So the timing is good.
I would suggest that as the Cabinet

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN273 March 9, 1999 considers possible reform or streamlining of
our land acquisition operations in the future,
I think it's helpful to keep in mind that
principally what this is about is striking a
balance between, on the one side, providing
oversight and accountability that you have as
Trustees on the one hand; with our ability to
be nimble and strategic and timely in the
actual real estate marketplace on the other.
I was told in -- in learning about Florida
that about 20 years ago, there was a problem
with some fraud and abuse in the State Land
Acquisition Program. That consequently led to
some reforms that has today made Florida's Land
Acquisition Program far more accountable and
far more structured.
Today we're celebrating the success of
acquiring 100 million acres of land under
P2000, with no hint of anything other than the
very best business practices.
In fact, I was delighted to learn that the
average purchase price of Florida's negotiated
land acquisitions is 94 percent of the
appraised value. So the average purchase price
is 6 points below market price. And I think

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN274 March 9, 1999 that's a record to be proud of.
To the extent that there has been
criticism, however --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Stru-- David, do you
think that market price and -- and appraised
value are the same thing?
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Equal?
MR. STRUHS: No, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Just checking.
MR. STRUHS: Thank you.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Six points below market,
or six points below appraised?
MR. STRUHS: Appraised.
SECRETARY HARRIS: Appraised.
MR. STRUHS: Appraised.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. STRUHS: Thank you for catching that.
I meant appraised.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I feel like I'm in a court
of law here. I shouldn't do that.
MR. STRUHS: To the extent there has been
some criticism of the current program, it's
been that it's been a bit slow, a bit
bureaucratic, perhaps we haven't been as nimble
or as quick as we should be in -- in making

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN275 March 9, 1999 acquisitions.
What we'll be presenting to you today is
some recommendations -- preliminary
recommendations for improvements. I would --
we would offer for your consideration.
I believe that the kinds of recommendations
we're going to be making to you will allow our
land acquisition program to work faster,
better, and cheaper, without compromising the
Cabinet's oversight and trust management
responsibilities.
So with that, I'd like to introduce the
Director of our Division of State Lands,
Pete Mallison; who will be followed by
John Santangini, the Chief of our Bureau of
Appraisals.
And if I could ask you to direct your
attention to the screen, there's quite a few
slides, but they go very quickly.
MR. MALLISON: Thank you, Secretary Struhs,
and thank you, Governor Bush, for the
opportunity to make this presentation.
We do have this set up as a power point
presentation, but I would also tell you that
you should have a folder like this in front of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN276 March 9, 1999 you, which has each one of the slides that
we're going to be going over in that.
So if you prefer or can't see the -- the
screen very well, you can certainly follow
along in your booklet.
As Secretary Struhs mentioned, the Governor
had asked about a month ago that we prepare a
briefing about our land acquisition process for
the Governor and Cabinet's information. And
that occurred when we were presenting our
annual CARL report, Governor, for -- for your
consideration.
Before we get into that presentation, I
know that probably the other Cabinet members
who are not with us --
GOVERNOR BUSH: They're all coming though.
MR. MALLISON: -- know this. But since
you're new and Secretary Harris is new, you may
not.
And that is that in Florida, title to all
land that the State owns is held by you in your
capacity as the Board of Trustees of the
Internal Improvement Trust Fund, with the sole
exception of the State Highway System, which --
title to which is held by the Department of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN277 March 9, 1999 Transportation.
Now, of course, you had asked us to do a --
a presentation on the CARL process, and so
that's what we're going to focus on. But I
just wanted to mention that there are other
lands that you hold title to.
There are agencies, for example, today
I think we had Florida State University and the
Department of Children and Family Services that
had proposed acquisitions on the agenda.
Those acquisitions are handled largely the
same way that we're going to describe today in
terms of the acquisition process. They don't
go through the same kind of a selection process
that we go through for the CARL process. But
the actual acquisition process is pretty much
the same.
The Conservation and Recreational Lands
Program, as I mentioned, we want to talk about
six different things today. We want to talk
about the project selection and ranking
process. How do we identify those lands that
are going to be acquired under the CARL
program.
The workplan development. How does the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN278 March 9, 1999 Division of State Lands go from the project
phase down to the parcel phase when it comes to
identifying specific acquisitions that we're
going to do.
The -- the acquisition process itself:
Appraisals, negotiations, closing; and then a
little bit about process improvements.
There is legislative criteria in the
statute, 259.032, that talks about what lands
are eligible to be purchased under the CARL
program. This slide shows those.
I would highlight environmentally unique
and irreplaceable lands, endangered and
threatened species, habitat and protection,
archeological and historical sites.
The Legislature has created a commission to
actually review proposals and to determine
whether they comply with these provisions of
the law and to determine whether particular
projects ought to be purchased by the State.
That Commission is known as the Land
Acquisition and Management Advisory Council.
It has two representatives of the Department of
Environmental Protection, the Director of the
Division of Historical Resources, the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN279 March 9, 1999 Executive Director of the Game and Fresh Water
Fish Commission, the Director of the Division
of Forestry, and the Department of Agriculture,
and the Secretary of the Department of
Community Affairs.
I would mention that historically, prior to
the creation of the CARL program in 1979, there
was not a formal process for identifying lands
to be bought by the State. But since 1979 --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do they -- when -- when --
how do you pronounce this acronym, LA--
MR. MALLISON: LAMAC --
GOVERNOR BUSH: LAMAC.
MR. MALLISON: -- is what we refer to it
as.
GOVERNOR BUSH: The Land Acquisition and
Management --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It's French.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Advisory Council --
It's French.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. LAMAC.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- when it meets, does it
meet -- does -- do you -- are there typically
representatives here, or are the principals
that are shown on this chart actually the ones

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN280 March 9, 1999 that show up?
MR. MALLISON: It is fairly common for the
principals to be there. They have -- sort of
like the Cabinet meets, Governor, they have a
staff meeting in advance of the actual meeting
of LAMAC. And it's typical for staff to be
there. Most of the time the actual members are
there at the actual meeting.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
MR. MALLISON: This slide shows you the
process that they follow for evaluating --
considering and evaluating and ranking
projects. That is a one-year process. They
have an application deadline of December 31st.
They go through a series of public hearings.
And ultimately they come up with the list
which, as you know, was submitted to you in
February of this year for your consideration.
The CARL list today consists of six
separate lists. At one time it was only one
list, but it got to the point where from a work
perspective, we could not deal with 60 or
70 projects and try to bring any order and
priority to our acquisition. And consequently,
we developed a primary list, which was called

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN281 March 9, 1999 our priority projects list.
And then there were some exceptions to the
priority category for such things as shared
acquisitions with water management districts;
bargain purchases -- for example, the
Miami Circle where you may only want to pay
50 percent of the -- of the price; and other
types of exceptions.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Would that be a bargain
because we're not paying for all of it, or is
it a bargain because the price is good?
MR. MALLISON: It could be either one.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
MR. MALLISON: I can tell you that I can't
remember very many where it was that the price
was 50 percent. But --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I didn't get a sense that
there was going to be, like, any bargains --
MR. MALLISON: There aren't --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Miami River and
Brickell Avenues.
MR. MALLISON: After the CARL -- or as the
CARL priority list is being developed, the
Division of State Lands begins to develop our
annual workplan. I think Kirby mentioned that

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN282 March 9, 1999 a minute ago.
This is how again we go from the project
level to the parcel level. We have been using
this process since about 1990. And this is
done as we will coordinate that with the
managing agencies.
The Division of Forestry, for example,
Commissioner Crawford, we would get together
with the Division of Forestry, we would go over
a project that is slated for management by the
Division of Forestry, we would review the
parcels that we have already acquired, and then
we would attempt to identify those that we want
to acquire during the next year.
And that's how we would go about
identifying the actual categ-- or the actual
parcels that we are trying to buy in a
particular project.
This gives you an example of -- this is an
example of a project where these two par--
there are -- all of these are parcels that have
not been purchased, and in -- in discussions
with the agency, we would identify these two
right here, we would estimate the value of what
those are going to cost, and then we would

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN283 March 9, 1999 assign that amount of money to this project.
We would do that for virtually every
project on the list, and that would -- that
would be how we would translate this into our
annual workplan.
This shows you the existing allocation of
money. As I mentioned, there are five or six
different categories. And you can see on here,
the priority projects is -- gets the
lion's share of the money, about 40 perc--
46 percent this year. This is a number that
varies every year, depending on our discussions
with our partners in the managing agencies.
We also put a substantial amount of money
into the bargain purchase category, as you can
see. And the mega parcel this year, which is a
lot of projects that have thousands of smaller
parcels located in them.
Now I would like to discuss the actual
acquisition process. From the time that the --
the workplan is developed and the list is
approved, we begin working on this process.
You can see that --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we stop here a second?
So we have a -- have a year to create the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN284 March 9, 1999 list --
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and then -- then there's
a workplan -- how long is that workplan?
MR. MALLISON: The workplan -- we start
working on that typically in December, which is
when LAMAC actually creates the list. You
approve it in February; we actually implement
it in July, which is the beginning of the
fiscal year.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- so now we're a
year-and-a-half plus a month.
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Now we're now to the land
acquisition.
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
And as you can see, the land acquisition
process, generally speaking, is a linear
process, beginning with the appraisal process,
the negotiation process, and the closing
process.
I would point out that there are several
steps, like right here, for example, that we
are able to overlap some of our work so that we
are not waiting for one process to be done

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN285 March 9, 1999 before we get into the next process.
The first thing that we do is we order an
appraisal map and preliminary title information
so that we can actually get an appraisal done.
Appraisal mapping is done to define the
appraisal assignment, graphically depict the
ownership of the property, and to identify
issues that may impact value.
These are all -- this is all information
that we want to provide to the appraiser so
that he can do the best job that he can.
Preliminary title information we order from
the title companies that we have under
contract. Again, it would identify potential
encumbrances on the property, and it provides
both the appraiser and the negotiator with more
information.
The next thing we do after we get that
preliminary information is we actually give it
to the appraiser. And as you can see, again,
we don't wait for this to be done before we
contract with the appraiser. But he can
actually start working on the appraisal before
we provide that information, as long as he can
get that information before his assignment is

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN286 March 9, 1999 done.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Have we gotten to a
contract yet?
MR. MALLISON: Yes -- to the contract for
the land?
GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
MR. MALLISON: Not yet. We're trying to
determine the value of the land now.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
MR. MALLISON: I would point out that all
of the appraisals that we do are performed by
private sector real estate appraisers. They
are not performed by State employees.
We contract with over 140 private
appraisers, and they are required to file --
follow -- I'm sorry -- the Uniform Standards of
Professional Appraisal Practice, which is the
industry standard for appraisals.
(Attorney General Butterworth entered the
room.)
MR. MALLISON: We ask the appraiser to
determine what the highest and best use of the
property is. Those are uses which are legally
permissible, physically possible, financially
feasible, and maximally productive.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN287 March 9, 1999 Again, we do not direct the appraiser on
how to appraise the property. We ask him to
determine the highest and best use, and tell us
what he thinks the value of the property is.
We also have those appraisals reviewed.
This is the quality control step that we make
sure that the appraisals that are submitted
appear to be well thought-out and are accurate.
Once the appraisal review is completed, my
staff -- I have nine review appraisers on
staff, Governor -- and they review that
appraisal when it comes in, and they then
determine what the maximum value is that the
State can pay based on those appraisals.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: How often do they
change that price at that point?
MR. MALLISON: The statistics,
Commissioner Crawford, seem to suggest that
there is a break between $500,000 and under,
and $500,000 and over. And that's one of the
things that we'll talk about a little bit
later.
But there does not appear to be very much
change in the appraisals under $500,000, and
there --

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN288 March 9, 1999 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
MR. MALLISON: -- does appear to be a fair
amount of change in those above $500,000.
The next step after the appraisal is
completed, Governor, is to actually start the
negotiation.
The first thing that we do is we develop a
negotiation strategy. The acquisition is
assigned to a particular agent. They're
required to review the appraisal, and to
develop a negotiation strategy.
As the slide indicates, it is typically not
our practice to try to negotiate acquisitions
that are less -- worth less than $50,000, but
rather to spend our time on those that are
worth more than $50,000.
The negotiation strategy considers many
factors, including other purchases that we may
have already made in the area; if we know it,
what the owner's expectation is.
There is, again, oversight and approval of
the negotiation strategy by management within
the Division to make sure that it is done
appropriately.
Once the negotiation strategy is approved,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN289 March 9, 1999 then the agent is free to conduct negotiations.
And again, there is oversight, both by
management within the Division, and our
General Counsel's Office as that process goes
on.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have -- are we going
to catch up with the time line again later on
in this --
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
MR. MALLISON: Fairly quickly, in fact.
I would mention that we also have many
acquisition partnerships with, for example,
water management districts, nonprofit
organizations, and local governments. And when
we deal with them in a -- in a partnership,
they are also required to develop a acquisition
strategy so that we can keep track of the
acquisitions.
And I think as Secretary Struhs mentioned a
minute ago, the statistics that we have
compiled would demonstrate that over the last
three-and-a-half years, our average negotiated
contract price has been 94 percent of the
appraised value, which has resulted in a

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN290 March 9, 1999 savings of 30 million dollars, compared to the
appraised value.
Here is our time line again.
Did you have a question on that, Governor?
GOVERNOR BUSH: I can't read it, so I've
got to look at it again.
So now we're --
MR. MALLISON: Now we are -- we have a
signed contract, and we are ready for today's
meeting; that is, the Cabinet approval process
is the next stage in our process.
GOVERNOR BUSH: But -- but to get from
the -- for the land acquisition process, we've
gone a year-and-a-half. And then the
appraisal, preliminary title work starts. So
there's another 270 days, the way it looks like
here?
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: To get to approval.
So year-and-a-half plus three-quarters of a
year?
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't know. I'm not good
on math --
MR. MALLISON: Nine months I think is

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN291 March 9, 1999 270 days.
GOVERNOR BUSH: That's a lot of year --
that's, like --
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: A lot of
time.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- three years now we're
into this before we have purchased --
MR. MALLISON: Well, I think we would be
about -- let's see. One -- one-and-- up to
one-and-a-half years, plus nine months. So a
little over two to two-and-a-half years.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And is that -- is
that standard, do you think?
MR. MALLISON: Well, it's standard for our
process.
Keep in mind, Governor, as you mentioned,
the first year to year-and-a-half of this
process is the evaluation process.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, in -- in -- someone
said at one of these last meetings we had that
half of the contracts -- half of the
attempts -- we close on half of the deals which
we pursue.
MR. MALLISON: I'd say that's --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Deals that --

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN292 March 9, 1999 MR. MALLISON: -- probably close to
accurate.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So we spend -- I mean,
there's a whole infrastructure in place to buy
land where we have a success rate on closing of
50 percent, and a time line here that is
extraordinarily long. I mean, very long, I
would think. I mean, this is --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It's incredibly
long.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It's long.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You don't have any
money available though until day zero here.
MR. MALLISON: That's true. The --
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- on this chart here.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes, sir.
MR. MALLISON: That's right.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So really the time
before that can be changed any way you want to.
But I guess really you're kind of bound to when
money is available before you can really get
serious about going after property.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess -- if -- how long
is a typical contract closing date once we put
it under contract.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN293 March 9, 1999 MR. MALLISON: Most of the ones that you
see on the agenda will have an estimated
closing of 120 to 150 days. But there are lots
of things that can happen as we go through that
closing process that can cause that to be
extended. And we'll go into some of those in a
minute.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So that's over and above
the two-and-a--
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Geez. This is like -- his
kid's going to graduate from high school.
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But they have some
good ideas. They're about to hit you with
some --
GOVERNOR BUSH: I know. I'm just -- I'm
trying to set the --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
GOVERNOR BUSH: -- set the stage for all
these good ideas to make them look really good.
MR. MALLISON: The -- on the Trustee's
agenda process, Governor, if I can go ahead,
the -- the law allows the Governor and Cabinet,
the Board of Trustees, to delegate to the

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN294 March 9, 1999 apart-- the Department the ability to approve
contracts with values up to a million dollars.
Right now, the delegation from the Governor
and Cabinet is only at $50,000, and only in
mega parcel projects.
The Board of Trustees process itself adds
45 to 60 days to our process, and we go through
seven levels of review, including internal
reviews, as well as the Cabinet Aides, and the
Cabinet meeting itself.
After the contract has been approved,
either by the Governor and Cabinet, or under a
delegation, we enter the last phase, which is
the closing phase.
And again, I would point out that this does
overlap to some extent with the Board of
Trustees process. We don't wait until the
Governor and Cabinet actually have voted to
approve it, because in our experience, almost
without exception, the Governor and Cabinet
approve these contracts.
And in order to try to accelerate the
time frame, we try to start the closing process
as soon as we have a signed contract.
The closing process consists of three

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN295 March 9, 1999 steps: Due diligence, problem -- problem
resolution, and then actual closing.
Due diligence phase is the phase in which
we identify issues. And those are done through
the securing of a title commitment, a survey,
and an environmental site assessment.
The title commitment identifies exceptions
that the title insurance company will not
insure. Those are typically problems that then
require us to evaluate and resolve.
It also, of course, provides insurance
coverage after closing and legal defense in the
event that we end up in some kind of a quiet
title or boundary suit.
The final survey, of course, the surveyor
is required to cut and blaze the lines. This
helps us identify encroachments and other
physical occupations, and it also for
accurate -- accurate acreage calculations for
payment purposes.
The environmental site assessment assesses
the risk of contamination on the property. And
if there is contamination, then it helps us
identify the extent and the seriousness of the
contamination.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN296 March 9, 1999 It also provides us with a innocent
landowner defense in the event that we do not
find the contamination, but it turns out after
closing that, in fact, the property is
contaminated.
Once the problems have been identified,
it's time to try to resolve those. This is a
coordinated effort, among my Division; the
man-- the identified managing agency; the
contractors that we have under contract,
for example, the surveyors; the environmental
site assessment contractors; and, of course,
the seller.
Some of the typical issues that we run into
during this time frame could be outstanding
mineral interests, development orders that may
burden the property, survey problems.
We run into property where the owner has
died and the estate has not gone through
probate. There may be boundary disputes with
adjoining neighbors, and there may be trash and
other debris on the property.
All of these things again, Governor, are
issues that -- that we typically resolve before
we close.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN297 March 9, 1999 Let me show you a couple of examples of
some of those.
This shows you a waterline -- if we were
buying that property and we were doing the
survey, we would figure out whether that
waterline actually is within the easement area
that it's supp-- does it have an easement, to
begin with; and if so, is it within the
easement area.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Is it as -- do you have a
person that looks -- on the -- I think you
called them agents, the -- someone assigned to
each property that actually -- they've seen
every property?
MR. MALLISON: This -- this would be
something that would come up when we get the
final survey done. So you would have a
surveyor who would actually go out and -- and
run those lines.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I understand. But has the
person who is -- working at DEP who has the
responsibility to be -- to manage this -- this
process that you're describing, have they --
are they required to see the --
MR. MALLISON: As -- as a general rule, I

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN298 March 9, 1999 would say the answer is no. In the last
three-and-a-half years, we have probably bought
in excess of 10,000 pieces of land. So it is
not possible for us to look at every one of
them.
We do try to get out on the major
acquisitions. But I can't tell you that --
that we're even successful with that.
But anyway, what I was just saying is if it
turns out that the waterline is not within the
easement, we would have to get a new legal
description for the easement, go back to the
utility company, and have them sign a new
easement agreement that would locate the
waterline within the -- a different boundary.
Now, that is certainly not a problem.
Utility companies don't have a problem doing
that. But it does take time.
Here's an example of an acquisition that we
were doing for property that was going to be
managed by the Division of Forestry. And
sitting on about 5 acres of it was this
communications tower.
So we had to, again, make sure, does the
communications tower have a lease or an

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN299 March 9, 1999 easement, or some right to be there? Or are
they actually within the area that they're
supposed to be.
And then finally, in this case, the basic
question was, do we want -- do we even want
this property. And -- and after our
discussions with the managing agency, the
Division of Forestry, it was determined that we
did not want the responsibility for this tower
site, so we cut out the 5 acres where the tower
sat, and went ahead and closed on the remainder
of the property.
GOVERNOR BUSH: But --
MR. MALLISON: Here's an example that is
not atypical. When we buy a piece of property,
the red line would represent the actual deed
line, but the fence does not sit on the deed
line.
And so when you go to get title insurance,
the title insurance company is not going to
insure title to that area because there's a
potential of an adverse possession claim by an
adjoining neighbor.
GOVERNOR BUSH: The next one looks even
more interesting.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN300 March 9, 1999 MR. MALLISON: Yes. The next one is a
situation, of course, where the adjoining
neighbor constructed a lean-to or a carport
across the line. And again, that's something
that we would have to get cleared up before
closing.
A lot of times, we buy rural property that
has got a lot of trash and other stuff on it.
The managing agencies are not particularly
interested in getting responsibility for it,
and then immediately having to turn around and
spend a lot of money to clean this stuff up.
Our contracts typically require the owner
to do that. And so before closing, we would
insist that they remove the trash.
After the problems have been resolved, we
finally get into the actual closing phase. And
that means that we have to get our survey, the
appraisal, the environmental site assessment,
and the managing agency to all give us a final
sign-off.
We get final legal review. If any title
issues have come up that are of a serious and
significant nature, they may need to be brought
to your attention since you will be holding

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN301 March 9, 1999 title to this property.
And that would be done either through the
submission of a memo, or sometimes we even
bring the items back to you. Typically things
like contamination issues, and things like
that, would be actually brought back to you for
your consideration.
We get the warrant from the Comptroller's
office, and we then close, and we get the deed
to the property.
As I mentioned, Governor, we do privatize
much of what we do. All of our appraisal
mapping, all of our boundary surveys are done
through private surveying companies.
We have all of our appraisal work, the fee
appraisal work, is done through private fee
appraisers.
Most of the review work, most of the
mapping review work is all done through private
companies that we have under contract. We
could not possibly keep up with this work with
the limited amount of staff that we have.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, how big is the staff?
MR. MALLISON: We have about 75 people in
total within the Division that work on all of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN302 March 9, 1999 these various stages that we have talked about
of the acquisition process, from selection
through appraisal --
(Secretary Harris exited the room.)
MR. MALLISON: -- surveying, negotiations,
and closing.
Talk a little bit about some of the process
improvements that we have already implemented.
There -- each of the CARL projects contain what
are called essential parcels and nonessential
parcels. The essential parcels being those
that are considered to be critical to the
success of the project; the nonessential ones
being those that would be nice to have, but not
critical.
We have already begun the process of
getting appraisal maps and title works on all
of the essential parcels, and are not waiting
necessarily for the activation of acquisition
to do that.
We have instituted deadlines for
negotiations to try to focus our negotiation
efforts and not waste a lot of time. And as I
pointed out through the process, we have
overlapped where we can the various processes

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN303 March 9, 1999 that are part of our overall process.
We have started, as I mentioned, ordering
the environmental site assessment survey and
final title at the time a contract is closed --
is signed, without waiting for Board of
Trustees approval.
We are using task assignments to do all of
our private work that I mentioned, as opposed
to doing RFPs. We used to do RFPs, and that,
frankly, took probably another 30 to 60 days,
because we had to competitively bid every one
of those.
Now what we do is we go out once a year
with the competitive bidding, get all these
people under contract, and then when it's time
to actually do the work, it's just a matter of
doing a task assignment, and we can get them on
the job fairly quickly.
And then, finally, we do a lot of
partnering with water management districts and
nonprofit organizations that allows us to
significantly expand our limited staff
resources.
Some other potential areas for improvement.
And this is what the Secretary has indicated

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN304 March 9, 1999 that we will be coming back after we have
finished analyzing this, and any other ideas
that we get, and bring you some specific
recommendations.
Do we need to review every appraisal? That
takes 30 to 45 days during the process. We
have seen statistically that for those parcels
that are worth less than $500,000 -- and that
constitutes 84 percent of the -- of our
workload -- that it costs us about $300,000 a
year to get those appraisals reviewed.
And yet in the last three-and-a-half years,
the net change in value that has occurred as a
result of that nine hundred to a million dollar
investment has only been $99,000. And that,
frankly, went up, Governor, it didn't go down.
So in our way of thinking, that is not
particularly value added.
GOVERNOR BUSH: So if we -- if we stop
doing it, you can ensure that there'd be
less -- less money that we would have to buy --
MR. MALLISON: We would certainly spend
less money.
We had the opportunity last week to meet
with General Milligan. He came out and we

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN305 March 9, 1999 talked to him about our appraisal process. And
this is one of the things that we talked to
General Milligan about.
And he had a real good suggestion, that if
we were going to pursue that initiative, that
we ought to maintain some kind of a statistical
review in there anyway so that we're still
reviewing some of those, but we're not
necessarily reviewing all of them.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Why does it take 30 to
45 days to review an appraisal?
MR. MALLISON: Part of it is the
contracting process. And I'd say, on a simple
one, it's a 30-day process.
But on a lot of the stuff that we're
buying, Governor, we're talking large tracts of
land, and the -- the review process actually
requires the review appraiser to not only go
out and look at the property we're trying to
buy, but he also has to evaluate all the comps
and everything else.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm saying -- so this --
the -- the review of every appraisal is done by
our staff, right?
MR. MALLISON: No, sir. We hire private --

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN306 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Contract out the reviews,
too.
MR. MALLISON: -- appraisers to do that.
We used to do --
GOVERNOR BUSH: You hire appraisal --
appraisers to look at appraisals?
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir. We -- at one
time, it was our practice to do those in-house,
but we have a staff of nine review appraisers.
And when we got into the Preservation 2000
program with the incredible workload, we just
could not keep up with it, and we were falling
way behind.
And so it became our practice to contract
out most of the appraisal review work. We
still do probably 5 or 10 percent of it
in-house. But most of it is done out of house.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Hmm.
MR. MALLISON: Do we need to negotiate
every acquisition? I think I mentioned early
on that it is not our standard practice to
negotiate small ticket items.
In our mind right now, that's under
$50,000. But we may want to look at upping
that value to another value somewhat higher,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN307 March 9, 1999 and just make offers that whatever the
appraisal is for those parcels. It would
certainly save staff time, and I think that the
reaction from the -- the seller community that
we're dealing with would probably be very
positive.
Does the Board of Trustees need to approve
every contract? As I mentioned before, that's
a 45- to 60-day process at the end.
In the last three-and-a-half years, we have
entered into approximately 4500 contracts to
purchase land. Now, 3500 of those were
approved under delegation to the Department.
Those are those that are $50,000 or less, in
the mega parcel category. A thousand though
were submitted to the Board of Trustees for
approval. And that 1,000 out of the total of
4500 constituted 97 percent of the total dollar
figure.
We have looked at breaking that down. If
you were to delegate, for example, under
$500,000 to the Department to approve, you
would still be approving 87 percent of the
total amount of money that we spend, but
97 percent of our workload would be then

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN308 March 9, 1999 delegated to the Department, and we would not
have to bring it through this process.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Three percent --
three percent of the contracts generate --
MR. MALLISON: -- eighty-seven percent of
the money.
Now, as I mentioned before, the legislation
allows delegation up to a million. We also
looked at that figure. If you approve just
those over a million, that's 82 percent of the
dollars, and it would be 98 percent of the
one -- the -- of our workload.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Pete, you
could -- if we were to give -- give more
delegation, you could still at least circulate
amongst the members, and give us 48 hours, if
we have any questions. If not, it'll
automatically happen --
MR. MALLISON: Yes. I'm sure that -- that
we would do some kind of a reporting mechanism.
Yes, sir.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So any one
of us could just pull it out and put it on
agenda. And if no one -- no one puts it on
within so many hours, it just happens. That's

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN309 March 9, 1999 just a check and balance.
GOVERNOR BUSH: That'd be fine, yeah.
MR. MALLISON: And a couple of issues in
the closing process.
Do we have to get legal marketable title on
every parcel. Today it is our practice to do
that.
There are a number of issues that come up
there, Governor, that are really risk
assessments. And the question is, is the State
willing to accept any level of risk. Right now
we are not. But it results in us spending a
lot of time clearing up things that --
(Secretary Harris entered the room.)
MR. MALLISON: -- in the private sector,
people would not worry about.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Give me some examples.
MR. MALLISON: Probate is a good example of
that. We run into -- especially on the small
parcels, the lawyers advise us that if it has
not gone through probate, it creates a
situation where the title legally is not
marketable.
But we're dealing with situations where the
cost of an out of state error to go through

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN310 March 9, 1999 probate in Florida costs more than what we can
pay them for the parcel.
And the chances that anything would ever
come up that would create a problem in the
future are probably extremely remote.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But in that case,
what do you do now?
MR. MALLISON: Now we typically have to ask
them to go through probate. And a lot of times
they don't want to do that.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Or that 50 percent success
rate.
MR. MALLISON: Exactly.
And then finally, can we move some of the
tasks to post closing. And I guess a good
two -- two good examples there would be the
trash issue. Why do we have to get all the
trash cleaned up before we close, as opposed to
why don't we take care of that after closing.
And there are some sort of bureaucratic
answers to that because right now, we --
because the way the contract is structured,
the -- the seller is obligated to do that. If
we moved it to close posing -- clost posing --
close -- no.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN311 March 9, 1999 GOVERNOR BUSH: Post.
MR. MALLISON: Post closing. That's right.
-- if we moved it to -- to post closing,
we'd either have to create some kind of an
escrow agreement, which has been very
difficult; or we would have to assume the
financial obligation ourselves.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Or you discount the price.
MR. MALLISON: Exactly. That's another way
to --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Why -- why would
the escrow be difficult?
MR. MALLISON: Well, we have -- we have
worked -- and I don't mean to put the
Comptroller on the spot. But we -- or maybe it
was the Treasurer since --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Since he's not
here, we'll put him as --
MR. MALLISON: Well, he is here.
I can't remember. It was either the
Comptroller's office or the Treas-- I think it
was the Treasurer's Office, who's -- who by law
is -- is responsible for actually managing all
these escrow accounts.
And it just became -- there's a lot of

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN312 March 9, 1999 paperwork, and things like that, that you have
to go through, and it just seemed like it was a
lot of trouble.
Another post closing issue, an example of
that would be the -- the easement issues. When
you have the waterline, which is not actually
in the easement, and there's not a real problem
in moving it, it just takes time to do it, can
we move that to -- to post closing.
So those are some of the suggestions that
we have that we will be looking at over the
next month or so before we bring back specific
recommendations.
Governor, I would comment on the -- the
amount of time that the -- the first phase
takes, which is the evaluation and ranking.
They are the wild card, I think, as you
mentioned.
We have opportunities, for example, with
the Miami Circle, where you tell us to go look
at it, and within a matter of a couple of
months where there is reason, we can bring it
back. But there is a standard process that you
go through with the general variety
application.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN313 March 9, 1999 So there is some flexibility there.
I think it's important that we maintain that
flexibility.
That concludes my part of the presentation.
I would like --
Okay. All right.
And I guess it concludes the presentation
in its total. And if there are any questions,
I would be happy to try to respond to them.
Again, we intend to bring back specific
recommendations. And if any of you have any
suggestions for us, we would be more than happy
to consider those between now and -- and then.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Nelson.
TREASURER NELSON: Governor, as part of the
policy discussion here, recently there has been
legislation that has been proposed that would
basically take this land committee that has
ranked the CARL projects for years, and totally
change it by -- instead of five agencies,
appointees, being the ones that comprise the
selection on the CARL list. And, as you know,
the CARL list comes to us, we can't alter it.
We -- we either accept it or reject it.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Uh-hum.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN314 March 9, 1999 TREASURER NELSON: We can't reorder --
GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
TREASURER NELSON: -- the -- the priority.
And since I came here, the one thing that
consistently has been told to me is that this
is a process that works in the selection of the
CARL list properties. And that it is not a
political process.
So I want to take the opportunity of this
forum, and thank you again for this policy
discussion, just to register my concern that
the Legislature, in fact, might alter this
selection committee to a point at which it
might become much more political than it is.
And I think it has been one of the crown
jewels of Florida that the properties that
ultimately come up high on the CARL list are
there on their merits, not because of political
considerations.
And so I wanted to take the opportunity
of -- of this forum in which to state my
concern that the Legislature might change that.
And I would hope that they will not.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I saw that last week, that
that was a -- I forgot which, the Senate or

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN315 March 9, 1999 House, but --
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Senate.
GOVERNOR BUSH: The Senate is?
TREASURER NELSON: I think the Senate's got
it coming up next week for a vote, don't they?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: They're going to
change it --
SECRETARY HARRIS: Florida Forever.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I've been told
they're going to change it in the fiscal policy
committee.
We're on top of it.
TREASURER NELSON: You mean you still run
the Senate?
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I wish.
GOVERNOR BUSH: It sounds like it.
TREASURER NELSON: I'm glad you've taken
care of it, Bob.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Latvala does
anything I want him to do.
TREASURER NELSON: Do I still refer --
COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Is that on the
record, please?
SECRETARY HARRIS: Maybe he'll run up on
me.

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN316 March 9, 1999 TREASURER NELSON: Should I refer to you as
the Senate President Emeritus?
GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't see anybody from
the press, but the TV cameras are normally on.
So Senator Latvala will be happy to hear that,
Commissioner Crawford.
Any other --
CABINET AIDE: On the Internet.
GOVERNOR BUSH: On the Internet, of course.
That's true.
Holmes Braddock has already gotten out.
And they probably didn't stick around. They
probably went home, do you think?
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'm sure --
I'm sure they've gone home.
GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other -- David, do you
want to add anything?
MR. STRUHS: No, sir. But we very much
appreciate the Cabinet's interest in -- in this
issue. We think that these are some -- some
preliminary ideas. But there -- they have
merit.
And we would look forward to working with
you, and also with your Aides, who have been
very helpful in -- in this process and

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN317 March 9, 1999 developing these kinds of ideas.
What we'd like to do is -- is come back in
a few months and let you know how -- how we're
doing.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I would add to the possible
recommendations to consider, looking at
incentives to deal with the success rate
that -- in the private sector, with -- with
people that buy large numbers of tracts. It
would be impossible.
The costs associated with a 50 percent
success rate on closing is -- is extraordinary.
And -- and time is the other element that --
those are the two issues.
And looking at people who truly want to
sell their property, and treating them perhaps
differently than the folks that aren't so
interested might be a means by which we can
accelerate the purchase of lands and complete
these -- these very valuable tracts before
they're purchased or developed or there's
outside pressures that make it more difficult
to do -- or that the prices get higher, which
is the other big -- you know, big challenge we
face. Because the more we delay in areas

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN318 March 9, 1999 particularly near development, the higher the
price will be when we have to -- when we get to
buy it. Time is money.
So I would include that -- when you can
create an incentive where sellers and buyers
are on the same page, it just happens a lot
faster. A lot faster.
So I appreciate the presentation.
MR. MALLISON: Yes, sir.
GOVERNOR BUSH: And I appreciate
everybody's patience today.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You had us
spoiled, Governor. Those first few meetings
were really great.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It's all downhill.
ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It's all
downhill now.
GOVERNOR BUSH: I think we're finished.
Isn't that it?

BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUN319 March 9, 1999 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
*
(The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
4:06 p.m.)

320 March 9, 1999 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

STATE OF FLORIDA:
COUNTY OF LEON:
I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
pages numbered 1 through 319 are a true and correct
record of the aforesaid proceedings.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
or financially interested in the foregoing action.
DATED THIS 26TH day of MARCH, 1999.

LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR 100 Salem Court Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221