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T H E C A B I N E T S T A T E O F F L O R I D A Representing: REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION VOLUME I Pages 1 through 157 The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, December 14, 1999, commencing at approximately 9:17 a.m. Reported by: LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter Registered Merit Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 APPEARANCES: Representing the Florida Cabinet: JEB BUSH Governor BOB CRAWFORD Commissioner of Agriculture BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General BILL NELSON Treasurer TOM GALLAGHER Commissioner of Education * * * 3 December 14, 1999 I N D E X ITEM ACTION PAGE REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000: (Presented by Scott McPherson, Statewide Y2K Coordinator) 1 Report 7 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION: (Presented by Tom Herndon, Executive Director) 1 Approved 13 2 Approved 20 3 Approved 20 4 Approved 20 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE: (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III, Director) 1 Approved 21 2 Approved 21 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES: (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III, Executive Director) 1 Approved 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 4 December 14, 1999 I N D E X (Continued) ITEM ACTION PAGE ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION: (Presented by Sandra Sartin, Policy Coordinator) 1 Approved 29 2 Approved 29 3 Approved 29 4 Approved 39 5 Approved 43 6 Approved 43 7 Approved 44 8 Approved 44 9 Approved 44 10 Approved 45 11 Approved 47 DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS: (Presented by Robin Higgins, Executive Director) 1 Approved 48 2 Approved 48 3 Approved 57 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 5 December 14, 1999 I N D E X (Continued) ITEM ACTION PAGE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND: (Presented David B. Struhs, Secretary) 1 Approved 58 2 Deferred 58 3 Approved 58 4 Approved 76 Substitute 5 Approved 98 6 Approved 99 7 Approved 99 8 Approved 100 9 Approved 100 Substitute 10 Approved 100 11 Approved 100 12 Deferred 101 13 Approved 101 Substitute 14 Approved 102 15 Approved 102 16 Approved 103 Substitute 17 Approved 105 Substitute 18 Denied 130 19 Deferred 137 Recess 138 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 6 December 14, 1999 I N D E X ITEM ACTION PAGE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson, Deputy Commissioner) 1 Approved 139 2 Approved 139 3 For Information Only 141 5 Approved 139 6 Approved 140 7 Approved 140 8 Approved 140 9 Approved 141 10 Withdrawn 141 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 157 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 7 December 14, 1999 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:44 a.m.) 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: We now have an update on 4 Team Florida 2000, a Y2K update. 5 Scott, you here? 6 MR. McPHERSON: Yes. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: There he is. 8 MR. McPHERSON: Thank you very much. And 9 good morning, Governor Bush, and distinguished 10 members of the Cabinet. 11 With 17 days until the year 2000, we wanted 12 to give you our final report on the readiness 13 of the State of Florida. 14 You should have in front of you a 15 spreadsheet which shows the -- the final 16 results of our surveying effort. We've 17 surveyed 3,305 entities. In this particular 18 report, we are reporting the progress of 19 3,273 entities, both public and private, with 20 an aggregate completion percentage of 21 97 percent. 22 And there are literally hundreds of 23 entities that are doing the same thing that the 24 State of Florida is doing, and that is 25 reporting our completion percentage at just ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 8 December 14, 1999 1 under 100 percent. It's an old engineering 2 rule. 3 But the State of Florida, the 32 agencies 4 that comprise State government, are reporting 5 an aggregate 99.998 percent complete, which is 6 extraordinary. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who's the .002? 8 MR. McPHERSON: It's -- it's just some -- 9 just some mop up in a couple of systems. 10 And -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I wouldn't want to be 12 that -- 13 MR. McPHERSON: And the engineers would 14 tell you that that's just their safety margin. 15 There are 2142 entities across Florida that 16 are reporting 100 percent; and then once again, 17 several hundred which are reporting anywhere 18 from 98 to 100 percent complete. 19 Since the last time I briefed you all, the 20 Department of Environmental Protection issued 21 their final report, indicating that Florida's 22 drinking water, wastewater, chemical companies, 23 and hazardous waste processing companies are 24 all moving forward splendidly for the 25 millennium. And they -- and the Department of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 9 December 14, 1999 1 Environmental Protection does not expect there 2 to be any Y2K problems of any consequence in 3 any of those areas. 4 Last week, with the lead of the 5 Attorney General and the participation of the 6 Comptroller, the Deputy Commissioner for 7 Consumer Affairs, and the Commissioner of the 8 Florida Department of Law Enforcement, we held 9 a press conference just reminding Floridians of 10 the possibility of being a victim of a scam 11 regarding the year 2000 problem. 12 And we're very happy to report that 13 those -- those incidents seem to be reporting 14 in single digits right now. We have been very 15 proactive on this front, and we think we've 16 nipped that problem in the bud. 17 We have also produced some new television 18 commercials which are designed to just remind 19 Floridians in a -- in a humorous way that -- 20 that if there are any problems regarding Y2K -- 21 or any problems at the stroke of midnight, that 22 they may not be Y2K problems, but they may be 23 caused by other things which happen every 24 single day of the year. 25 Very similar to the White House report ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 10 December 14, 1999 1 which was issued yesterday reminding Americans 2 that computers malfunction and ATMs quit 3 365 days a year, and that's not the exc-- the 4 exclusive license of Y2K. 5 One of those commercials also reminds 6 Floridians to keep their money in the bank 7 where it's safe, because you never know what 8 can happen if you pull that money out. 9 And we've also produced with the -- in 10 conjunction with the Florida Association of 11 Broadcasters, a half hour TV special which is 12 going to be distributed to every broadcast 13 station in the state; which is also being sent 14 to every bowl committee for the use of the 15 teams that are going to be participating in the 16 bowl games, letting them know just how well 17 prepared the state of Florida is. 18 The grocers have additional stocks of food 19 to last for weeks. The American petroleum 20 industry has found that 98 percent of its 21 participating members are Y2K compliant. The 22 Florida Department of Law Enforcement continues 23 to work with local law enforcement agencies for 24 monitoring millennium celebrations and other 25 special events such as concerts and parades. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 11 December 14, 1999 1 We have some concern about the increased 2 geomagnetic and solar activity that's going to 3 be occurring between now and the end of the 4 year 2000. We want Floridians to know that 5 those activities may be misinterpreted as Y2K 6 related events. 7 We're currently at the State Emergency 8 Operations Center in a Level 1 monitoring 9 activation status. That will change at 10 6:00 a.m. on the 31st of December to Level 2. 11 And we're going to be watching what happens 12 around the rest of the world. We're going to 13 be making some decisions and making some 14 judgment calls based on what happens in some 15 other industrialized nations overseas. 16 We'll be handling live media briefings the 17 31st of December at 8:00 a.m., 5:00 p.m., and 18 8:00 p.m.; we'll go live January 1st at 19 1:00 a.m. and then again at 2:00 a.m., 20 because -- just to remind everybody, Florida 21 enters the year 2000 twice, once in the eastern 22 time zone, and once in the central zone. 23 We plan -- if everything goes according to 24 our plans, and there are no disruptions, we 25 plan to stand back down to Level 1 at 2:00 a.m. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 12 December 14, 1999 1 on New Year's morning. 2 And then we will come back up to Level 2 3 again at 6:00 a.m. on the 3rd, which will be 4 the first business day of the new millennium. 5 And if there are no related issues at that 6 point, then we'll stand back down to Level 1 at 7 12:00 noon on the 3rd. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions? 9 No questions, no comments? 10 Scott, you've done a fantastic job, and I 11 hope I don't get a call at 2:00 a.m. on 12 January 1st because -- 13 MR. McPHERSON: I hope not either, sir. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I need the sleep. 15 MR. McPHERSON: We'll do our best. 16 Thank you very much. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 18 (The Report: Team Florida 2000 Agenda was 19 concluded.) 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 13 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: The next Cabinet meeting 2 will be January 25th, the year 2000. 3 State Board of Administration. 4 Good morning, Tom. How are you? 5 MR. HERNDON: Good morning, Governor. How 6 are you? 7 Item Number 1 is approval of the minutes of 8 the meeting held November 9th, 1999. 9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the minutes. 10 TREASURER NELSON: I'll second it. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 12 Without objection, it's approved. 13 MR. HERNDON: Item 2 is a resolution of the 14 State Board approving the fiscal sufficiency of 15 a hundred and thirty million dollar, State of 16 Florida, Department of Transportation Turnpike 17 Revenue Bonds, Series 2000A. 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it. 19 TREASURER NELSON: Second. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 21 Without objection, it's approved. 22 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 3 is a 23 recommended set of new asset class targets, and 24 allocations and benchmarks for the 25 Lawton Chiles Endowment Fund. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 14 December 14, 1999 1 And, Governor, with your permission, and 2 members of the Board, I'd like to just spend a 3 minute, walk you through our recommendations. 4 As you know, we have had responsibility for 5 investing the Chiles Endowment since July 1st 6 of last year. 7 We are anticipating essentially what is our 8 second installment of Chiles Endowment monies 9 on or about January 1st. Pursuant to your 10 direction, we have completed an asset 11 allocation review -- 12 (Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.) 13 MR. HERNDON: -- of the potential use of 14 these funds, and are recommending some 15 additional investment strategies for those 16 purposes. 17 The first additional strategy that we're 18 recommending is that we move into the 19 international equity arena, and fund at a 20 12 percent level an international allocation 21 using our existing benchmark for the Florida 22 Retirement System, which is the Morgan Stanley 23 Capital Index All Country World Free, excluding 24 tobacco, and I want to make that point, because 25 that -- as I think at least two of the members ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 15 December 14, 1999 1 know -- 2 Governor, I know you're familiar with -- by 3 extension. 4 -- causes us to have a little bit of an 5 increased cost, because we're excluding 6 those -- those tobacco products in our 7 benchmark as we go out and try and buy that 8 index. 9 The second item, which is also in the 10 recommendations as a new investment is that we 11 move in the fixed income arena to an allocation 12 for high yield bonds. Approximately 6 percent 13 of the total fixed income portfolio, or about 14 1.3 percent of the total endowment. 15 Now, that high yield bond recommendation is 16 contingent on the receipt of a favorable 17 opinion from outside counsel, which we have 18 engaged to opine as to whether or not we can 19 commingle Chiles Endowment monies with the 20 Florida Retirement System monies, which would 21 allow us to acquire those high yield bond 22 products at a much lower cost than we could 23 achieve them on the greater market. 24 In addition, we're also recommending also 25 in the fixed income arena that we move to an ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 16 December 14, 1999 1 allocation of 11 percent in the Treasury 2 Inflation Protected Securities, or TIPS. These 3 are the inflation index bonds that the U.S. 4 started -- 5 (Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.) 6 MR. HERNDON: -- marketing about 18 months 7 ago. We're pretty optimistic about this 8 product. And, in fact, as this market for the 9 TIPS broadens and deepens over the next couple 10 of years, we may come back to you with a 11 recommendation to expand our holdings in this 12 particular asset. 13 Finally, we're recommending a 4 percent 14 allocation to real estate using the 15 Wilshire Real Estate Securities Index as the 16 primary benchmark. 17 And here my note would be that we do not 18 anticipate having any direct owned properties 19 in this portfolio, unlike the Florida 20 Retirement System. In this case, they'll all 21 be equitized products like REITs, and REOCs, 22 and pooled investment fund. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: What was the second thing 24 you just said? 25 MR. HERNDON: REOCs. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 17 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: What are REOCs? 2 MR. HERNDON: Real estate operating 3 companies. Essentially a pool of products. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that your -- as the year 5 ends, I -- I have to admit that while I'm -- I 6 will fight on for the fight against acronyms, 7 I'm losing the battle. 8 I'm not going to surrender though. 9 I've never heard of that one. 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Your name 11 though. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, of course, I am -- 13 one more thing, Tom. 14 The Attorney General is polite to point out 15 that I am an acronym myself. 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This is true. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. 18 MR. HERNDON: Well, the net -- the net 19 result of these recommended changes is that we 20 would reduce our current domestic equities, 21 fixed income, and cash allocation by 4 percent, 22 19 percent, and 4 percent respectively. 23 So the fund will be essentially fully 24 diversified and fully invested. We'll hold a 25 1 percent cash level in the fund. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 18 December 14, 1999 1 We anticipate a second, third, and 2 fourth tranche of dollars the following 3 January 1st of each year for the next 4 three years, which would bring the principal of 5 the endowment up to the target of 1.7 billion 6 dollars. 7 Two other comments, if I might. We 8 unfortunately, by virtue of the timing, were 9 not able to take this recommendation to the 10 IAC. Our Advisory Council meets this Friday. 11 We do anticipate going through this with 12 them in some detail. And if there are any 13 substantive concerns that they express, we 14 would bring those back to you, and possibly 15 modify our implementation strategy accordingly. 16 The final comment, and I hate almost to 17 make this following right on the Y2K 18 presentation. But we are anticipating getting 19 these monies on or around the 1st of January. 20 They are targeted for investment immediately 21 thereafter. 22 We have been surveying all of our 23 investment managers and our large 24 relationships. They are telling us that they 25 think it probably is advisable that everybody ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 19 December 14, 1999 1 keep a weather eye out on the markets those 2 first few days. 3 We know, for example, that one of our 4 strategies, which was to move some of this 5 money of the international arena following the 6 recommendations, we have been advised by one of 7 our consultants that they would strongly 8 encourage us to stand down for a few days until 9 the international markets, especially the 10 emerging nations, stabilize a little bit. 11 So my point in saying this is, with your 12 permission, give us a little bit of -- of 13 tactical discretion here as the first few days 14 of the new year unfold. 15 We also recognize that that potentially 16 impacts our performance measurement a little 17 bit. And with your leave, give us a little bit 18 of -- of latitude there as we try and make the 19 best decisions for the disposition of these 20 funds. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 22 TREASURER NELSON: I move it. 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move it, or second 24 it. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 20 December 14, 1999 1 second. 2 Without objection, it's approved. 3 MR. HERNDON: And Item Number 4 is the 4 annual report on corporate governance for the 5 period July 1st, 1998, to June 30th, 1999, for 6 your information and review. 7 TREASURER NELSON: And I'll move that we 8 accept the annual report. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Do we need a motion 10 on that? 11 TREASURER NELSON: I don't know. 12 MR. HERNDON: Just to accept it. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. That's fine. 14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 15 MR. HERNDON: Thank you very much. 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second the 17 acceptance. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'll vote for it. 19 Thank you, Tom. 20 (The State Board of Administration Agenda 21 was concluded.) 22 * * * 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 21 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the 3 minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 6 second. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 Item 2. 9 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is a resolution 10 authorizing competitive sale of up to a hundred 11 and thirty million dollars of Turnpike Revenue 12 Bonds. 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MR. WATKINS: Thank you. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Happy holidays. 19 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was 20 concluded.) 21 * * * 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 22 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Department of 2 Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles. 3 MR. DICKINSON: Governor, I have the last 4 tag of the millennium for you. This will be 5 our 51st. It's the U.S. Marine Corps tag. 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Fantastic tag. 7 Fantastic. 8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Semper Fi. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who designed this tag? 10 MR. DICKINSON: Actually the design was -- 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: 12 General Milligan -- 13 MR. DICKINSON: -- was by the General's -- 14 one of his graphic artists, I believe. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was just -- 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Actually, I took the 17 lead from the Attorney General last meeting, 18 and -- 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Used that pen? 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- used a 21 magic marker and whipped it out. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Who gets 23 that plate, Fred? 24 MR. DICKINSON: The money? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 23 December 14, 1999 1 MR. DICKINSON: This -- this particular 2 one? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Who gets 4 number 1? 5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Number 1 -- USMC 1, 6 which is still available, is going to go to 7 General Chapman, who is a former Commandant of 8 the Marine Corps, lives here in Florida. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And where 10 does the Lieutenant General -- what number 11 plate does the Lieutenant General get? 12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: He is not asking for 13 any particular number at this time. He will 14 take whatever might possibly be available. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And Fred has 16 that discretion to give whatever number he 17 thinks might be -- 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No, no. There are a 19 lot of people that have already, you know, kind 20 of got their oar in the water. 21 I'd be happy with one that maybe reflected 22 my infantry background. But we'll see how it 23 works out. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Since you're 25 one of four votes that he needs every ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 24 December 14, 1999 1 week-to-week, I would assume you'll do 2 all right. 3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, you know, one 4 of -- one of the things that ought to be 5 mentioned here is that this money -- and -- and 6 I think we will raise considerable money with 7 this plate -- goes to scholarships for young 8 people here in Florida to support the 9 Junior Marine Corps ROTC program in 10 high schools. 11 And I'm going to go back in to the 12 Legislature and ask that they include the 13 Young Marines Program, which I think you saw a 14 number of people here the past month, which is 15 a very strong mentoring program, to -- to help 16 that program. 17 So it's for a very, very good cause. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doesn't it also go to the 19 veterans -- 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. The first 21 50,000 goes to support the veterans nursing's 22 home -- nursing home. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll move it. 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 25 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 2 Any more comments? 3 General Butterworth -- 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- you satisfied? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'm finished 7 for the -- for the day, Governor. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: For the day? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. I'll 11 tune back in again around 3:00 o'clock this 12 afternoon. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been moved and 14 seconded. 15 Without objection, it's approved. 16 MR. DICKINSON: Governor, we did certify 17 yesterday to the Legislature, and to your 18 staff, that there were no qualifiers for any 19 additional tags this year. That deadline came 20 and went last week. So this'll be it for at 21 least a two-year span. 22 We did have a couple -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: How many years? 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What's our total? 25 MR. DICKINSON: Well, they've -- they've ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 26 December 14, 1999 1 got to qualify again next year. But it'd take 2 us an additional year to get them out. So -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: So the Legislature -- 4 MR. DICKINSON: We're at 5-- 51 right now. 5 We've got two more -- two more that'll be 6 coming to you early next year. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 8 MR. DICKINSON: The wildflower and the 9 Florida Memorial College. So -- 10 Also I'd like to report that since Scotty 11 did a good job on the Y2K, we've canceled our 12 leave again for our troopers over the 13 millennium celebration, or whatever's 14 forthcoming. 15 And, of course, we'll be there -- staff at 16 the -- at the EOC also, and look forward to 17 everybody having a safe and -- and happy 18 holiday. And appreciate it, the last Cabinet 19 meeting of the millennium, it's momentous, to 20 say the least. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Fred, I thought it was nice 22 to see the article where Mothers Against Drunk 23 Driving ranked Florida -- gave us an A- on our 24 efforts to deal with young people -- I guess in 25 general -- I guess it was just our laws against ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 27 December 14, 1999 1 alcohol induced accidents, and -- 2 MR. DICKINSON: We've had very nice success 3 in alcohol related fatalities over the last 4 decade. And -- and the MADD groups, the 5 support we have, law enforcement, the 6 judiciary, the Legislature, everybody's to be 7 commended. 8 It's certainly no time to let up, but we 9 have reduced alcohol related fatalities I think 10 by 30 percent in ten years. And our 11 statistical gathering has gotten stronger in 12 that ten years, so it really should have gone 13 up a little bit, but it hasn't. 14 And if we can -- if we can get fatalities 15 in general to slip down, we're -- we're a 16 little bit high right now on the national 17 average -- we'll be real pleased. 18 And I know you have a problem sometimes 19 with our primary seat belt enforcement. That 20 is something we'll probably be pushing again 21 this year. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm for it. 23 MR. DICKINSON: Well, I mean, you -- you 24 supported us last year, and we appreciate it. 25 We all -- I'm sorry. The Legislature -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES 28 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's what you 2 meant to say. 3 MR. DICKINSON: We almost -- we got it 4 through one, we're working on the other right 5 now. But I think it's coming back, Governor. 6 I'm -- 7 But anyway, thank you so much. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: You bet. 9 (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor 10 Vehicles Agenda was concluded.) 11 * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 29 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Administration Commission. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the 3 minutes. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 Item 2. 9 MS. SARTIN: Item 2 is a request of a 10 transfer of general revenue appropriations for 11 Department of Children and Families. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 Item 3. 18 MS. SARTIN: Item 3 is a request of 19 approval of an information technology project 20 for Department of Children and Families. 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 24 Without objection, it's approved. 25 MS. SARTIN: Item 4 is request approval of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 30 December 14, 1999 1 transfer of general revenue appropriations for 2 the Board of Regents within the Department of 3 Education. 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I have a 5 question on that, Governor, or a comment -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- maybe or more 8 important. I had a chance, either last week or 9 the week before -- 10 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I've forgotten, 12 to meet Mrs. Nina Ovieda, who -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- runs your 15 operation in Washington, D.C. 16 And during her conversation, she made it 17 quite clear that, in line with your One Florida 18 philosophy, that that particular office would 19 be used to be the focal point of dealings in 20 Washington, both with Congress; and for that 21 matter, any other evolution. 22 And I -- I guess I have a little bit of a 23 problem with the idea that -- I agree with it 24 fully, that we ought to do that. 25 And I have a little problem with this, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 31 December 14, 1999 1 which is saying we're going to hire some 2 contractors to represent Florida, and lobby for 3 Florida another stovepipe operation with no 4 real coordination in the One Florida context. 5 And if we are really serious about trying 6 to have that office be the focal point, we 7 might want to reconsider what we're doing here, 8 and perhaps expand the capabilities of that 9 office using Floridians to support Florida. 10 And so I'm concerned about it. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, this is, I guess -- 12 as I understand it, this is the way it has been 13 done, which doesn't mean -- you know me, 14 I mean, it doesn't mean we have to be doing it 15 the way we have been doing it. 16 This is -- I think the university system 17 has hired lobbyists over the years. I'm more 18 than happy to talk to the Chancellor about 19 this. We have -- you're absolutely right, we 20 have moved to try to create more of a team 21 approach to Florida's efforts. 22 We've gotten the Legislature more engaged 23 in helping us and fully -- more fully briefing 24 them, because it's their office as well. 25 We are working with Spaceport Florida to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 32 December 14, 1999 1 have someone assigned that we will partially 2 pay for out of general revenue dollars, and 3 Spaceport Florida will secure other money 4 I believe for an employee of theirs to work out 5 of our office. 6 So I'm -- in general, I'm supportive of 7 this concept. We've not taken it to the 8 university system. I'm more than happy to do 9 it. 10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- I just 11 think that -- I just hate to see a quarter of a 12 million dollars going to some contractor to 13 lobby for -- for us when we, I think, can find 14 qualified people to work for us, and -- and 15 provide flexibility, even in the things that 16 they are doing, and do it in a coordinated, 17 unified way. 18 And I -- I just have a problem with it. 19 So I hope maybe we can do something with 20 it. And I -- I will probably vote against it. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I guess I'll make 23 the motion for it, and I'll do that because I 24 am a member of the Regents, and we have 25 negotiated a contract based obviously on a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 33 December 14, 1999 1 hopeful approval of the Administration 2 Commission to fund it in regards to university 3 lobbying, which has been a contracted service 4 over many, many years for different people 5 to -- to have carried this out. 6 So in good faith, I'll -- I'll move this -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, is this part of the 8 settlement that been -- we've been -- 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- reading about in the 11 paper? 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's a little 13 bit of it, too. This is a new contractee, and 14 there's a settlement with the last person that 15 was -- had had that contract. 16 So this funds both the new, and I think 17 whatever the settlement is with the other 18 contractor. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: And there's been -- 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I guess it's really 21 a question of the way we ought to be doing 22 business. 23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I think that 24 that -- that that issue probably should be 25 discussed. What our wishes are here, I will be ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 34 December 14, 1999 1 most happy to take to the Regents, basically 2 saying that we should use -- that if you all 3 feel that we should look at using our own 4 employees, as opposed to hiring some 5 specialists on it. 6 I will tell you that the job that's done by 7 these -- the lobbyists in Washington and the 8 university system is specific to getting 9 grants, working the legislative process, and 10 getting special dollars for large -- large 11 grants, which you'll notice that Florida's 12 doing very, very well in. 13 I think we saw some articles, and press 14 releases released by Florida State University 15 on how well they've done with their research, 16 and how much money that they've gotten based on 17 some of the outcomes of research. 18 So it all fits in together, and I -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Has the -- 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- will be glad to 21 deliver the message. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Has the contract been 23 signed? 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm sure if it -- 25 I don't know -- I can't answer that question. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 35 December 14, 1999 1 But I'm sure that it's signed based on our 2 approval here, because if they can't deliver 3 the money, nobody's going to deliver a 4 contract. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, can we -- can we 6 defer this item to the next Cabinet meeting so 7 that the Chancellor can come speak to 8 General Milligan to either accommodate his 9 concerns, or we'll modify the -- we'll consider 10 going to Plan B? 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It's really not just 12 the Regents. I think it's a philosophy that -- 13 the one -- one face of Florida philosophy. 14 That's what -- really what I'm talking 15 about. And this just happens to be an example. 16 But it is -- it goes well beyond the Regents, 17 and -- and having somebody in Washington 18 represent the -- the Regents. 19 Are we going to have one face in Florida, 20 are we going to have some person or group that 21 is really the focal point of -- of actions and 22 activities in Florida, and knowledgeable in 23 what's going on, instead of stovepipe 24 operations? 25 And -- and if I understand what you are ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 36 December 14, 1999 1 trying to achieve in many areas, not just -- 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- in this specific 4 area, that we need to put one face on Florida. 5 And this just kind of flies in the face of 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I -- I would sort 8 of -- I would request that we go ahead and 9 approve this, and I'll tell you why. 10 What General Milligan's saying is true, and 11 if this was the only one, we could fix this 12 here by holding it off and getting it worked 13 out. 14 But, bottom line is that there are many 15 agencies that have contracted people in 16 Washington, D.C., from the state of Florida. 17 And if that is something that we should do, it 18 should be done on an across-the-board basis, 19 not just pick on the university system right 20 now. It should be done across-the-board. 21 And I -- and I think it -- the message 22 should be sent, and probably should be a 23 legislatively sent message, or -- maybe from us 24 sent. 25 But to pick on just this one that has been ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 37 December 14, 1999 1 through administrative procedures, has been 2 through a tremendous amount of publicity, and 3 everything else, to cut it off now, based on 4 a -- a good reason, but at the same time, we're 5 not -- we're not stopping them all, we're just 6 picking on this one, I don't think would be a 7 good thing to do, unless we pretty much did it 8 across-the-board. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, as 11 you know, you have a very fine office in -- 12 in -- in Washington, with a number of employees 13 there working on issues. 14 Approximately four years ago, I saw fit to 15 put a full-time attorney in Washington because 16 of the interests of the State, and I think that 17 we should all look at -- at what we are doing, 18 and we may be able to have a much more 19 influential office in Washington by a more -- 20 of the -- of people operating out of your 21 office there. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, and that's -- that -- 23 that has been our intent. 24 Tom, is the contract that is -- that is 25 signed, waiting -- subject to approval here, is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 38 December 14, 1999 1 it a one-year contract? 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I -- I believe it 3 is. All -- all contracts basically have to be 4 because they're based on the Legislature 5 approving dollars. So it can't go bey-- 6 I mean, if, in fact, the dollars aren't there, 7 it's not paid. 8 I -- I would tell you that you would find 9 it very interesting if you total up the number 10 of dollars spent in Washington, D.C., by 11 agencies getting things done. And it would be, 12 and my guess, in the millions. 13 And if we count this, it would be -- that's 14 without counting this particular one. 15 So I -- I don't think that it's fair to 16 pick on one that has done a good job in the 17 past, will do a good job for this next year, 18 unless we have something else there for them to 19 do. 20 And we don't at this point. And I think it 21 would put our university system at a 22 disadvantage, compared to others in the -- in 23 the country that do have people up there like 24 this doing the job for them. 25 So I would urge you to let this one go ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 39 December 14, 1999 1 through, and -- 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- work on the 4 whole thing, as opposed to just -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a -- there's -- 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- this particular 7 one. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a motion. 9 Is there a second? 10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I would second it. 11 I think -- I think the Commissioner is 12 right, that there -- there may be a better 13 system. But until we have that in place, I 14 think, you know, these services are needed. 15 Sometimes they're very specialized, and it's 16 not always as easy to achieve what you like to 17 achieve as you think it is. 18 And -- so I would second the motion, hope 19 we could go ahead and move it today. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. There's a 21 motion and a second. 22 All in favor, say aye. 23 THE CABINET: Aye. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I am not opposed, I ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 40 December 14, 1999 1 am opposed to the principle. And -- and I will 2 accept this one for the very -- reasons given. 3 But I ask you, Governor, to take a hard 4 look at -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely. 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- what that office 7 is doing up there. 8 And Tom is right, there are lots of 9 agencies that have lobbyists in Washington that 10 are non-coordinated in terms of overall State 11 policy. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- I appreciate your 13 comments, General, and -- and while I -- I'm -- 14 I'm trying to be a little more cautious these 15 days about -- because I'm -- there's a 16 perception that we're trying to do too much at 17 once. 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So? 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, we're plen-- 20 I'll just tell you this, Governor, we're plenty 21 loaded over at Department of Education. So 22 don't -- we don't need much more to do over 23 here. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You're 25 telling a Marine General that -- that you -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 41 December 14, 1999 1 that you can't do more? 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- on the hill? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right. 4 Can we get a report back, Governor, as to 5 how much money actually we are spending in 6 D.C., because -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Maybe -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: We may actually have a 10 problem in our own particular office, General, 11 about the office space as well. It's pretty 12 full. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Oh -- 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It is full. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- yes, sir. I 16 understand that. And I'm not talking about the 17 facilities. I -- I'm talking about the 18 principle of one face of Florida in 19 Washington, D.C. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: We will get -- how about if 21 we do this: I'll get Nina Ovieda to come to 22 one of the next Cabinet meetings and give a 23 summary of the State's involvement in 24 Washington by different agencies, and give a 25 briefing on what she does as well. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 42 December 14, 1999 1 She's done it personally to you. But it'd 2 be nice to see the composite. And we can move 3 towards that over time in a -- in a -- in a 4 thoughtful way. 5 I appreciate your comments. In fact, this 6 is the most conversation we've had about 7 Administration Commission -- 8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It's a big one. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- item than -- 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: In over 11 13 years. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We -- one of the 13 things we will have to take into consideration 14 when we do this is specialties that are needed 15 for certain things. And there are expertise 16 areas that need to be hired maybe on an interim 17 basis as opposed to a full-time basis when 18 needed, or those kinds of things. 19 So there's lots of things that fit into 20 this -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, contracting out 22 things doesn't necessarily mean that you -- you 23 can't work as a team. 24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's right. 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Exactly. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 43 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: And that's the point. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And one thing's 3 for sure, somebody ought to be coordinating 4 what the State of Florida is saying in all 5 aspects to Congress and to the agencies up 6 there. And that is -- that definitely isn't 7 happening. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item -- Item 5. 9 MS. SARTIN: Item 5, request approval of a 10 transfer of appropriations to implement a 11 reorganization for the Department of Education. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second. 16 Moved and seconded. 17 Without objection, it's approved. 18 MS. SARTIN: Item 6, request appropriation 19 of transfer of general revenue appropriations 20 for the Department of Elder Affairs. 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 24 Without objection, it's approved. 25 MS. SARTIN: Item 7, request approval of a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 44 December 14, 1999 1 transfer of general revenue appropriations for 2 the City of Miami Financial Oversight Board. 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 MS. SARTIN: Item 8, request approval of a 9 transfer of appropriations to implement a 10 reorganization for the Departments of Health 11 and Labor and Employment Security. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 15 Without objection, it's approved. 16 MS. SARTIN: Item 9, request approval to 17 establish five new positions for the Department 18 of Legal Affairs. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 22 Without objection, it's approved. 23 MS. SARTIN: Item 10, request approval to 24 transfer general revenue appropriations to the 25 Department of Elder Affairs. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 45 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 4 Without objection, it's approved. 5 MS. SARTIN: Item 11 is request approval to 6 revise a rule pertaining to the Senior 7 Management Services for the Department of 8 Management Services. 9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I've got to make a 13 comment on this, too, Governor. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yep. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The -- I guess I 16 always have a problem with actions that favor 17 one group of people against another group of 18 people. 19 And particularly in this case, the highest 20 paid group of people are receiving this -- this 21 particular benefit. And -- and I guess really 22 my -- my hope is that we will try to recognize 23 the career service people and their salaries 24 and -- and with opportunities with 25 discretionary pay and recognize some of their ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 46 December 14, 1999 1 needs in terms of services such as dental care 2 and -- and medical care. 3 And so I -- I just -- I have a problem with 4 the -- with the principle here. And it bothers 5 me, and I just have to say it. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments? 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I understand 8 where General Milligan is coming from. I 9 happen to agree with him. 10 I asked for what the costs would be for us 11 to do this for all of our employees, and it's 12 about 51 million dollars annually. So it's a 13 number that the Legislature obviously would 14 have to -- to appropriate. 15 And I think that that's something that we 16 should find out if our career service employees 17 would be interested in it, and it should maybe 18 be something we look at. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: There has been 21 one -- 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Made a motion -- 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and seconded. 24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: And there's a second, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 47 December 14, 1999 1 I'm sorry? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor, say aye. 4 THE CABINET: Aye. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. 7 MS. SARTIN: Thank you. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 9 (The Administration Commission Agenda was 10 concluded.) 11 * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 48 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Veterans' Affairs. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion. 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- on the minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 8 Without objection, it's approved. 9 Item 2. 10 MS. HIGGINS: Item 2 is the -- I request 11 acceptance of our quarterly report for the 12 first quarter of 1999-2000 fiscal year. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MS. HIGGINS: And before I go on to Item 3, 18 I would like to thank you, Governor, and 19 General Milligan, and Commissioner Gallagher, 20 for all being there on Saturday for the 21 dedication of the Korean War Memorial. 22 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 23 MS. HIGGINS: We don't always all get a 24 chance to get together and thank so many 25 really -- really important people for what they ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 49 December 14, 1999 1 have done. 2 And I've got to tell you that every veteran 3 I talked to since that time has been very, very 4 proud, and very pleased with the gift that we 5 were able to give them. So I thank you very 6 much. 7 As I go on to just tell you a little bit 8 about our budget, I'm going to try to be very 9 brief. 10 And I want to tell you, Governor, that I 11 will not be quoting Winston Churchill or 12 George Washington. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: It'll be a first then. 14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Still leaves a lot 15 of people. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 17 MS. HIGGINS: Yes, sir, that's true. 18 As -- as you know, the -- this state has 19 1.7 million veterans. And, in fact, our 20 veterans population, unlike many of the other 21 states, is actually growing. And I think 22 during the -- during the census, we would be 23 able to point that out. 24 We have 600,000 World War II veterans 25 alone, and 300-- over 300,000 Korean war ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 50 December 14, 1999 1 veterans. So we have about 1 million veterans 2 in the state of Florida. More than -- more 3 than half of our veterans population are over 4 the age of sixty-five. 5 So it becomes very clear that what we need 6 to do with our limited assets, and certainly 7 all the attention we can give them, is to look 8 to what are the needs of that aging veterans 9 population. 10 We currently have 407 people in 11 22 different locations around the state. Our 12 strategic issue is just one: Florida's 13 veterans, a major and growing sector of whom 14 are elderly, expect, deserve, and require 15 advocacy, healthcare, information, education, 16 and services to mitigate significant health and 17 economic threats. 18 We are a good deal for -- for the State. 19 Our budget comprises about one-half, or 20 somewhere less than 1 percent of Florida's 21 State budget. Much of that, this year 22 17.7 million dollars of that is self-generated, 23 and that is our trust funds, our Federal trust 24 funds. 25 We leverage in excess of 56 million dollars ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 51 December 14, 1999 1 in direct Federal U.S. Department of 2 Veterans' Affairs benefit dollars. 3 Overall, our Benefits and Assistance 4 Division brings in 46 million dollars -- 5 Federal dollars each year. 6 Each of our veterans claims examiners -- 7 and we normally pay them about $36,000 a year 8 in salary -- each one of those brings in about 9 $734,000 annually for the veterans that we can 10 help. 11 We are in the process, as you know, of 12 building out to six veterans homes. When we do 13 that, we will have garnered more than 600 -- 14 60 million dollars in Federal construction 15 funds alone. Each home brings in about 16 10 million dollars per home. 17 The homes themselves, of course, are a good 18 deal, as you know. The per diem rate for each 19 veteran in the -- in each home has been raised. 20 This last -- and -- I guess in October to 21 $51 per diem. 22 And, of course, because of that, and other 23 Federal benefits that we can accrue in the 24 homes significantly reduces the State's 25 healthcare costs while being a good deal for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 52 December 14, 1999 1 the veterans of Florida. 2 And except for the home -- except for the 3 homes, and our small Tallahassee office, the 4 rest of our employees are in Federal facilities 5 rent free and utilities paid. That equates to 6 about 11-- 11,500 square feet at a cost of 7 about 2-- a cost savings of about $231,000 a 8 year. 9 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.) 10 MS. HIGGINS: Our Department has grown. 11 In -- ten years ago when the Department was 12 formed, we had about 50 people. 13 In 1991, because of the start of -- 14 start-up of the homes pro-- building homes 15 program, we grew to about 149 employees. 16 We now have 407. And as we build three 17 more homes, we will grow again by half. 18 My budget basically consists of three -- of 19 some -- three cogent and overarching issues. 20 First of all, in 1991, 62 percent of the budget 21 was comprised of GR. Today, only 26 percent is 22 GR. 23 We're taking money out of our trust funds, 24 and we're becoming way too lean, and we can't 25 continue doing that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 53 December 14, 1999 1 Secondly, we can't increase the size and 2 the scope of our Department four-fold without 3 some increase in administrative -- in 4 administrative and support capabilities in 5 order to support that growth, and make sure it 6 happens correctly. 7 And -- and the third issue is that we have 8 not received any general revenue funding for 9 any of our information resource management 10 improvements and upgrades in over -- 11 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.) 12 MS. HIGGINS: -- four years. 13 My goal when it comes to IRM, and I've said 14 this before, is to try to bring our Department 15 into the 20th century sometime before the 16 21st century. 17 Specifically, we are asking for 131 people 18 for the start-up of our third veterans nursing 19 home, which is now being built in 20 Broward County. 21 We're not asking for any -- any building 22 funds, construction funds, because that's all 23 happening right now. We expect to open this 24 home and be ready to accept residents in 25 Pembroke Pines in Broward County sometime ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 54 December 14, 1999 1 during the winter of 2000. 2 We're asking for a small organizational 3 increase in -- in our administrative and 4 support staff of nine people. We're asking for 5 a few for benefits and assistance staff 6 increase. 7 We've got a huge backlog, as you know, in 8 Florida, and we're actually making some 9 inroads. And the Department of Veterans 10 Affairs, the U.S. Department of 11 Veterans' Affairs is working very closely in a 12 partnership. They're opening up more 13 outpatient clinics, community-based outpatient 14 clinics, and I'd like to be able to support 15 those outpatient clinics with some outreach of 16 our people. 17 We've got a request for -- for information 18 resources, management upgrades of about a half 19 a million dollars. 20 And two significant items relating to 21 World War II memorials that -- that people seem 22 to get confused about. One is I've asked for 23 $248,000, which is Florida's contribution to 24 the national World War II memorial being built 25 in Washington. $248,000 equates to $1 for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 55 December 14, 1999 1 every veteran who served in World War II, 2 during World War II. 3 We've -- we've kind of gotten a little 4 lucky on this one, because, as you know, we 5 have more than twice that many World War II 6 veterans living in the state now, which is a 7 testament to how wonderful our state is, and 8 how accommodating we are to our veterans. 9 We have the -- the National Memorial 10 Foundation is trying to get at such -- a like 11 kind of donation for each dollar for each 12 veteran from every state. I think more than 13 twice the states now have either done that, or 14 are submitting legislation to do that. 15 So that's one request. 16 The other is that we're moving forward on 17 planning and coming up with a time line for our 18 state World War II memorial. And although I 19 haven't asked for money to build that memorial 20 in this year's budget, I still think that's 21 probably premature. 22 I'm hoping that, when we come up with the 23 plan, that we can raise a lot of it, if not all 24 of it, through private corporate donations and 25 such. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 56 December 14, 1999 1 But we do need a little bit of money for 2 fund raising. And I think that was part of the 3 problem with the Korean War Memorial, is that 4 we were not able to use any money for fund 5 raising, and we just didn't raise the money 6 that I think that we can raise. So I've asked 7 for $12,000 to -- to raise that money. 8 As far as the capital improvement plan, 9 we're not asking for any money this year, or 10 authority to spend any money for the Broward 11 home. That's being built. 12 We are, in fact, asking for the -- the 13 one half of the 35 percent, that's the State's 14 share, for the next two veterans nursing homes. 15 We discussed that at a previous Cabinet 16 meeting. We're going to build one in north 17 Florida and one in southwest Florida. 18 That equates to about -- a little over 19 6 million dollars. We're requesting a little 20 bit -- bit of money for maintenance and repair 21 for -- as part of our master plan, and for 22 emergency repairs in the already existing 23 homes. 24 And that's about it. If you have -- if you 25 have any questions, I'll be glad -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS 57 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions? 2 MS. HIGGINS: -- to answer them. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move it. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor, say aye. 8 THE CABINET: Aye. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: I withhold my vote as 10 Governor in order to make my own budget 11 recommendation. 12 Thank you, Robin. 13 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you, gentlemen. 14 (The Department of Veterans' Affairs Agenda 15 was concluded.) 16 * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 58 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Struhs. 2 MR. STRUHS: Good morning, gentlemen. 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 Item 2. 9 MR. STRUHS: Recommending a deferral on 10 Item 2. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded to 15 defer. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MR. STRUHS: Recommending approval of 18 Item 3 subject to special lease conditions and 19 a lease payment of $7,784. 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 3. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 25 Without objection, it's approved. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 59 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 4, gentlemen, is 2 an interesting situation. I have studied it 3 personally and have concluded that it is in 4 many respects a -- a dispute among neighbors. 5 What makes this one interesting though is 6 that one of the neighbors happens to be the 7 United States Government. And I'd like to just 8 give you a little background on it. 9 Florida citizen, Mr. Gerry Beaumont, lives 10 on the St. Johns tidal creek, and he has been 11 working to get the Jacksonville Port Authority 12 to dredge that creek. That is something that 13 the Port Authority is happy and willing to do. 14 However, the other abutter is the National 15 Park Service, who owns and operates the 16 Fort Caroline National Monument. The National 17 Park Service opposes the dredging of this tidal 18 creek. 19 We have determined that, from an 20 environmental perspective, strictly speaking, 21 that dredging the creek as planned would cause 22 no important environmental damage. 23 However, our rules, the DEP rules that we 24 have adopted, require us to recommend a denial 25 whenever one of the riparian property owners, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 60 December 14, 1999 1 in this case, the National Park Service, 2 opposes the dredging. 3 So our -- our proposal -- or recommendation 4 is to deny, but, in fact, that's just something 5 that's required by our own rules, and the 6 decision is really in your hands. 7 With that as background, we have a number 8 of speakers. Barbara Goodman is here from the 9 National Park Service who manages that 10 property. And then we also have 11 Mr. Anthony Orsini, and -- from -- from the 12 Jacksonville Port Authority; and then 13 Mr. Beaumont, in that order. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. 15 MS. GOODMAN: Good morning, and thank you 16 for giving me the opportunity to speak here. 17 My name is Barbara Goodman. I am the 18 Superintendent of the Timucuan Ecological and 19 Historic Preserve. The Fort Caroline National 20 Memorial is a -- one small part of the broader 21 46,000 acre preserve, of which this creek is 22 inside. 23 It's located next to National Park Service 24 lands, but it's also within the -- the broader 25 context of this larger preserve, and is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 61 December 14, 1999 1 designated as outstanding waters. 2 I am charged with protecting these 3 resources in such a manner, and by such means 4 as leaves them unimpaired for future 5 generations. 6 That's important to say because that is our 7 whole purpose for being there. And we have a 8 wonderful interface between natural resources 9 and the urban existence in the Timucuan 10 preserve. 11 Governor, you were there when you signed 12 the Florida Forever legislation. You saw what 13 a wonderful integration we have going. 14 But it's also a very delicate balance. And 15 in order to protect that balance, it's critical 16 that we are very careful to not manipulate the 17 environment, unless there is strong scientific 18 reason to manipulate. 19 The previous speaker commented that they 20 could find that there would not be damage if 21 they did. But the other side of that is there 22 needs to be reason to do it. 23 The National Park Service does not believe 24 that there is sufficient scientific data to 25 support the dredging of this creek. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 62 December 14, 1999 1 We base this on the fact that at this time, 2 the creek is healthy and functioning; there 3 exists several species of birds, fish, 4 invertebrates; there is positive flushing 5 action; and the surrounding marshlands are 6 healthy. 7 There is some contention that the creek has 8 gotten worse over time, and we do not agree 9 with that statement. This is a small, shallow 10 creek, and has had very low water at low tide 11 for many, many years. 12 And please understand that just by -- 13 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 14 MS. GOODMAN: -- being shallow, that is not 15 a reason to dredge. 16 In 1977, during a study from the original 17 permit request, it was found, and I'll quote 18 from that: That at near low tide in the creek 19 in the area of the bridge revealed the creek to 20 be virtually teeming with aquatic life. This 21 reflects the healthy, stable condition of the 22 marsh at that time, and demonstrates that it 23 constitutes a valuable biological resource. 24 The current DEP officials state that there 25 is little change in the creek from that time. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 63 December 14, 1999 1 The shoaling and the creek sedimentation is 2 a natural process. Hydrographic studies 3 indicate that dredging would not increase water 4 velocity. Therefore, the shoaling at the mouth 5 of the creek would continue, as would the 6 natural process of sedimentation, meaning that 7 once dredged, the natural siltation process 8 would just begin again. 9 The National Park Service has, over the 10 course of this dialogue, identified many 11 questions and concerns regarding this dredge. 12 But most importantly, we find no reason and no 13 benefit to the dredge. 14 It is not biologically necessary to do it. 15 And it is NPS policy to not try and fix 16 something that doesn't need fixing. 17 Others have claimed that damage has been 18 done to the creek as a result of spoil being 19 deposited nearby. 20 The fact that the creek is healthy and 21 functioning now indicates that, if damage was 22 done in the past, that time has healed those 23 wounds. 24 Every scientist who has visited and looked 25 at the creek in its current state has agreed ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 64 December 14, 1999 1 that the creek is currently healthy and 2 functioning. 3 Therefore, the National Park Service 4 requests that, based on our riparian rights, 5 and as professionals in the business of 6 managing and protecting public lands, that it 7 is in the interest of the broadest public to 8 deny this request to dredge. 9 Thank you. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 11 MR. ORSINI: Governor Bush, members of the 12 Cabinet, thank you very much for allowing me 13 the opportunity to speak this morning. 14 I represent the Jacksonville 15 Port Authority. I am their Director of Marine 16 Engineering and Construction. 17 And to start off with, I want to restate 18 the position of this small tributary. It -- it 19 runs north and south from the St. Johns River 20 to the -- to the tidal marshes of Chicopit Bay. 21 It is bordered on the east by Buck Island, 22 which is a spoil deposit island; and bordered 23 on the west by a residential community of 24 St. Johns Bluff and the National Park Service. 25 I would presume that the first question in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 65 December 14, 1999 1 your mind is why is the Jacksonville 2 Port Authority interested in this, because it 3 is -- it is not a navigable waterway, it won't 4 be a navigable waterway after the dredge, it 5 has no commercial impact on the City of 6 Jacksonville or northeast Florida. 7 And the number one answer of that question 8 is, in our view, it is the right thing to do. 9 The Jacksonville Port Authority has 10 conceded that over the years, beginning back as 11 far as 1940, the Corps of Engineers has been 12 using Buck Island as a depository for -- for 13 dredge spoil. 14 Over the years, the -- the pumping of 15 dredge spoil onto this island was done without 16 benefit of any retainage dikes. And up until 17 the year 1987 when the state of Florida bought 18 the island, and then the Jacksonville 19 Port Authority became managers of that island, 20 still material was being put on this island 21 without benefit of substantial dikes. 22 And the residents there can -- can point to 23 events where the dikes were breached, they were 24 overflowed, and material flowed into this 25 little tidal creek. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 66 December 14, 1999 1 The -- one of the biggest culprits in what 2 we view as the -- as the siltation of this 3 creek is a bridge. There was a bridge 4 installed by the original developers of the 5 island. The bridge was made of some old -- 6 well, what appears to be railroad timbers. 7 It -- the timbers were separated, it had 8 no -- no side boards on it, and if you had made 9 that bridge out of speed bumps, you couldn't 10 have made it anything more rough to travel 11 over. 12 Well, since the sand in Buck Island is a 13 natural resource and is -- can be used for 14 public projects, the extension of State Road 15 9-A around the east of Jacksonville used 16 about -- about 2 million yards of sand out of 17 Buck Island, and truckers were taking this sand 18 out. 19 Since the truckers were paying only a small 20 access fee to the island to the Port Authority, 21 and they were paying per truck, it was to their 22 advantage to put as much sand into these trucks 23 as they possibly could. 24 They put additional side boards up on the 25 side of the trucks, the backhoes loaded the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 67 December 14, 1999 1 truck up with as much sand as it could hold, 2 and then it would bounce across this washboard 3 bridge. 4 And as it did, it would drop sand off these 5 trucks, onto the bridge, off of the bridge, and 6 into the creek. I've seen that myself. 7 The Port Authority recognizing this, we 8 budgeted for a new bridge, and did install a 9 new concrete modern bridge with nice 10 side boards on it to keep anything from falling 11 into the creek, but the damage had already been 12 done. 13 We had documented since 1991, there had 14 been over 30,000 truck trips one way carrying 15 sand off that island and depositing sand into 16 this creek. 17 The results of all this activity, 18 of course, were brought to us by -- by the 19 residents of -- of the Bluff. And our Board of 20 Directors of the Jacksonville Port Authority, 21 after listening to the evidence presented to 22 them, agreed that this was a responsibility 23 that we owed to the residents and to the 24 environment, and budgeted precious capital 25 funds to dredge this creek and restore it back ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 68 December 14, 1999 1 to its original condition. 2 So here we are. We have accomplished all 3 that the State law has required of us. The 4 initial objections of the Park Service was that 5 they were concerned that this dredge would 6 possibly hurt the monument, the 7 Ribault Monument, which sits on a high bluff 8 above this creek. 9 And hearing that, I sent engineers and 10 geologists out there to take a look at it. The 11 Port Authority was willing to add reinforcement 12 to this Ribault Monument bluff, if necessary. 13 My engineers came back and said, nope, 14 there was -- was no possibility that this 15 dredge would affect the bluff. It couldn't 16 happen. Physical impossibility. So that was 17 reported and went away. 18 The next objection that I heard was that we 19 were going to damage the shoreline vegetation. 20 Well, we revised the dredging plan to eliminate 21 any dredging anywhere near the shoreline 22 vegetation. And, of course, the last objection 23 is that there's no scientific data that the 24 sand in the creek was put there by man. 25 Well, again, we sent the engineers and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 69 December 14, 1999 1 geologists out, and I gave them instructions to 2 find out where the sand came from. And their 3 response to us was that, well, Port Authority 4 would love to take your money, but the plain 5 fact is that the sand that's in the creek is 6 the same sand that's in the river, is -- it's 7 the same sand that's in the Buck Island, and 8 the same sand that's on the bluff, and there's 9 just no scientific way of proving where that 10 sand came from. It's here. 11 But where it came from is -- it's not 12 feasible to -- to prove that. 13 So I -- I submit to -- to you, Governor, 14 and to your Commissioners, that the proof is in 15 the eye of the public and the -- and the 16 residents who live along that bluff. 17 We have 15 residents along the bluff -- or 18 15 property owners that -- 14 of which are in 19 support of this project, and have given their 20 consent of riparian rights. The Park Service 21 has withheld theirs for the reasons they have 22 stated. 23 So we feel that we've done all that -- that 24 the law has required of us, there are no 25 environmental impacts to this project. It is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 70 December 14, 1999 1 judged clearly in the public interest by the 2 Department of Environmental Protection. And we 3 look forward to restoring this creek back to 4 its original condition. 5 And I ask that this -- this body approve 6 the permit and allow us to perform the project. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 8 MR. ORSINI: Thank you. 9 MR. STRUHS: Mr. Beaumont. 10 MR. BEAUMONT: Good morning. I'm 11 Gerald Beaumont, and I -- I've been -- to 12 represent the people on St. Johns Creek. They 13 appointed me because I'm the oldest and been 14 out there the longest, and have had witness to 15 this thing. 16 St. Johns Creek is not healthy. How can it 17 be healthy when at low tide, you look down 18 there, and there -- you see sand and no water 19 in the creek? 20 Now, the -- we live on the creek. There's 21 no Park Ranger that lives on the creek. 22 In fact, if you go up the Ribault Monument, you 23 only see the river, you don't even see the 24 creek. So we have witnessed this over the 25 years. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 71 December 14, 1999 1 Before the Barbara Goodman administration 2 came here, they were dredging without dikes, 3 and we could visibly see the -- the filtration 4 of the sand into the creek. You know it comes 5 out in liquid sand when they dredge, tons and 6 tons of it, and it spreads everywhere. And we 7 have witnessed that. 8 We -- we live down the creek all the time, 9 the Park Service doesn't. We saw the trucks go 10 over the bridge and bounce the sand into the 11 creek. 12 The reason we wanted water in the creek, 13 because we bought property out there. It 14 wasn't our fault. We look down there, and 15 we're disgusted to see sand there. 16 Now, when there was water in the creek 17 at -- at low tide, there were thousands of 18 mullet swimming down the creek. And because 19 there were a lot of fish there, there were a 20 lot of birds, and the ospreys would be flying 21 up and down. It was just beautiful. 22 But -- but now there's only a few fish, a 23 few birds. We want it restored. All the 24 people out there, they have written letters, 25 they -- they've requested restoration of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 72 December 14, 1999 1 creek. 2 Now, I'm an environmentalist. I was 3 Chairman of the Nature Conservancy in 4 Jacksonville for many, many years. And I was 5 Chairman when we gave the Roosevelt Preserve to 6 the National Park Service with the provision 7 that they keep it in its natural state, no 8 buildings, no roads, or anything else. 9 And I'm amazed that they don't want to 10 restore that beautiful creek the way it was -- 11 the way God created it. 12 So we are pleading with you to restore that 13 creek the way God created it. 14 Are there any questions? 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 16 Any other speakers, Secretary Struhs? 17 MR. STRUHS: That concludes the speakers, 18 sir. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Explain to me the rule, if 20 you could, that requires you to deny but -- 21 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- allows you the qualifier 23 for us to overrule it. I'm -- I'm a little -- 24 MR. STRUHS: Well -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- confused by that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 73 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, what -- 3 what I would like to put on the table for 4 discussion would be a motion that would approve 5 this as soon as the National Park Service signs 6 off on it. 7 And he can address that also, if he would. 8 MR. STRUHS: The -- the DEP rules which 9 govern our -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: We'll come back to you, 11 Commissioner. 12 MR. STRUHS: -- the DEP rules that govern 13 our responsibilities to the Cabinet require us 14 to recommend a denial in the event that there 15 is a riparian owner who objects to a proposal. 16 And in this case, that owner is the 17 National Park Service. So our -- our rules are 18 that we have to recommend the denial. 19 In fact, the decision is yours. And you do 20 not -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 22 MR. STRUHS: -- as you know, have to accept 23 any -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I misunderstood. 25 MR. STRUHS: -- of our recommendations. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 74 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I thought you said that 2 we -- the rules required you -- for us -- 3 required us to deny -- 4 MR. STRUHS: No, sir. No. You -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's for your 6 recommendation. 7 MR. STRUHS: The Trustees have complete 8 latitude in making any decision they want. I 9 just wanted to point out that -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 11 MR. STRUHS: -- our recommendation of 12 denial is -- is based on rule. 13 In fact, it's a close call. It could go 14 either way. We don't think there's any 15 significant environmental damage from going 16 forward with the project. 17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Oh, then I might 18 change my motion to approve it. 19 In fact, I will change it to -- I move to 20 approve it. 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to 23 approve, and a second. 24 Any other comments? 25 Generals? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 75 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: (Shaking head.) 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor, say aye. 4 THE CABINET: Aye. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. 8 So -- 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It fails. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it fails. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How about if I try 12 my other motion that it -- we approve it based 13 on the National Park Service changing their 14 objection? 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: I would second that. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. But 17 you can't. You're Governor. 18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'll second it for 19 you. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Hint, hint. 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to I guess 23 give a contingent approval subject to signing 24 off by the -- 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- National Park ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 76 December 14, 1999 1 Service. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- National Park Service. 3 And there's a second. 4 All in favor, say aye. 5 THE CABINET: Aye. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 7 Thank you. 8 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I knew my first 10 idea was the best one. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: It was a good idea. 12 MR. STRUHS: Substitute Item Number 5 deals 13 with the issues of deadhead logging in the 14 state of Florida. 15 One year ago the Department promised the 16 Trustees a report. You should have a copy of 17 that report, which is a two-page summary of all 18 the individuals in Florida currently permitted 19 to engage in deadhead logging. So we have met 20 that initial obligation. 21 During the course of the last year, the 22 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could I have everybody's -- 24 can we all be a little more quiet? 25 The Governor's a little hard of hearing. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 77 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: We've met that obligation in 2 providing you the report, which you have all 3 seen. 4 During the course of the year, we've 5 received complaints or concerns by the 6 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, by a number of 7 environmental organizations, and by some 8 fishermen suggesting that the deadhead logging 9 that's going on is currently causing some 10 damage, specifically to recreational fishing, 11 and to protected muscle species that -- 12 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 13 MR. STRUHS: -- live on the banks of some 14 Florida rivers. 15 Based on that, this item recommends, in 16 addition to your acceptance of our report, the 17 imposition of a four-month moratorium which 18 would extend until April 25th of the year 2000 19 on the issuance of any new permits for deadhead 20 logging. 21 And, thirdly, to limit existing permits to 22 already authorized logging areas. 23 I might point out for 24 Commissioner Crawford's benefit, that while not 25 a specific part of this agenda item, we have ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 78 December 14, 1999 1 moved to designate the Blackwater River State 2 Forest, and add that to the prohibited areas 3 list. 4 So with that, we do have a -- quite a few 5 number of speakers who want to address this. I 6 would suggest that, given the number, and given 7 the fact that some of them are from the same 8 organizations, we limit the comments to no more 9 than -- than 2 minutes a piece. 10 And if I could just introduce them one by 11 one. 12 Mr. Larry Welch. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: And as we move forward, 14 if -- if people have already said it, and 15 you -- you don't think you can say it better 16 than the way it was said before, consider it 17 said. 18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And if you'll give 19 the list -- sort of go down four or five 20 names -- 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well said, 22 Governor. 23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- so they can 24 wait in line to speak, it would make -- save 25 some time. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 79 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: I'm sorry. 2 Thank you, Commissioner. 3 The order will be Mr. Welch, Mr. Fuller, 4 Ms. Gengenbach, Mr. Draper, Mr. Reid, Mr. Ard, 5 Mr. Townsend. 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If you all will 7 sort of move on up here slowly, that'll save 8 quite a bit of time. 9 Thank you. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. 11 MR. WELCH: Good morning. 12 I'm Larry Welch from Crestview, Florida, 13 located in Okaloosa County. And I'm here to 14 express concern regarding activities of 15 deadheaders in the Florida rivers, and seek 16 reversal of the permit -- 17 (Governor Bush exited the room.) 18 MR. WELCH: -- which allows removal of 19 precut timber from these rivers; or at a 20 minimum, enforce the conditions of said permit. 21 The following pages -- which you have a 22 packet -- the following pages present 23 photographic evidence that deadheaders are 24 illegally taking logs from Yellow, Blackwater, 25 and Choctawhatchee Rivers in northwest Florida. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 80 December 14, 1999 1 Preceding each group of the pictures is a 2 map of the section of each river from -- the 3 logs were taken. Evidence suggests that all 4 permitted rivers are receiving the same 5 treatment. 6 Item Number 5 of specific conditions of the 7 permit in question states recovery of 8 dead fall, storm falls, or any naturally 9 occurring timber on submerged lands is 10 prohibited. 11 Item Number 9, recovery of deadheads is 12 restricted to 10 to 15 feet waterward of steep 13 banks along the outside bends of the river. 14 Item Number 10, recovery of deadheads 15 imbedded within the banks of the river is 16 prohibited. 17 All the following pictures represent 18 blatant violations of the above-stated 19 conditions, and should be enforced. 20 It should also be noted that they represent 21 only a very small percentage of the many miles 22 of affected rivers. 23 It appears that the Department of 24 Environmental Protection has neither the 25 manpower nor proper equipment to enforce the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 81 December 14, 1999 1 very permit for which they lobbied. 2 The main concern of the fishing public is 3 this provision -- 4 (Governor Bush entered the room.) 5 MR. WELCH: -- destroys fish habitat. When 6 each piece of wood debris is removed, it is 7 replaced by sand, therefore, no fish can 8 survive. 9 A prime example of this is the log jam on 10 Yellow River which was producing fish for over 11 50 years as verified by Harold King, a lifelong 12 resident. This log jam no longer exists. It 13 was pulled from the steep river bank bend, and 14 what is left of it now lies across the river on 15 the sandbar. 16 The revised proposed reports wants 17 additional scientific investigations on the 18 environmental impact of recovery, and 19 importance of deadheads to the ecosystem. 20 I've included one such report prepared by 21 the Florida DEP. It references many other 22 already completed studies on the removal of 23 deadheads. All state the importance of leaving 24 them alone, not only for the fish, endangered 25 species, but the very life of the rivers. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 82 December 14, 1999 1 Are we going to let private enterprise 2 remove the woody debris from the already 3 starved rivers, and let taxpayers replace them 4 as DEP recommends? 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir. 6 MR. WELCH: Thank you. 7 MR. FULLER: Governor and Cabinet, I'm 8 Manley Fuller representing the Florida Wildlife 9 Federation. 10 We have concerns about removal of the 11 deadhead logs from the -- from the rivers in 12 the state. We've expressed -- expressed these 13 previously to the Secretary. 14 We share the concerns of the gentleman who 15 just preceded -- preceded me. We would -- 16 regarding your recommended agenda item, we 17 would suggest consideration of -- of a -- some 18 additional conditions. 19 While the -- we'd like to participate in 20 the working group that the -- that is 21 envisioned by the proposed agenda item, so that 22 the issues of fisheries habitat can be fully 23 addressed and enforcement, et cetera, which 24 are -- we think are valid questions. 25 But -- but from a practical standpoint on ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 83 December 14, 1999 1 the ongoing permitted operations, we would 2 suggest, and have -- and I've spoken with 3 Mr. Ard, who's counsel for some of the deadhead 4 loggers, that a practice be added or a 5 condition be added to the activity that -- such 6 as is practiced with dredge and fill permits, 7 or construction permits where the permit is 8 actually posted above -- upstream and 9 downstream of the activity so that the public 10 going up and down the stream can tell whether 11 or not this has been a permitted activity; the 12 number -- the phone number, et cetera, of the 13 Department if there's a question; and the 14 actual -- the actual permit is shown so, if 15 anyone wants to get out and look at the permit 16 and see whether the activity is allowed or not, 17 this would -- would suggest within 100 yards of 18 the activity. 19 We think that that would allow for a -- the 20 concerned member of the public to -- to check 21 it out. 22 And then also with that -- with -- absent 23 those posted permits, then one could eas-- one 24 could assume that the activity was in 25 violation. We think that this might facilitate ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 84 December 14, 1999 1 enforcement while the -- while the review of 2 the activity and the working group goes 3 forward. 4 Also Mr. Ard indicated last week that, for 5 his clients, he informs the Department weekly 6 of where they'll be conducting the activities 7 so that -- that this would allow -- this might 8 make enforcement or review of whether permit 9 conditions are being met easier. We think that 10 that should be applied statewide to other 11 extractors. 12 So we're -- we think that there is -- we 13 think that there is legal and habitat issues 14 that should be addressed. We'd like to see an 15 increased involvement of the Fish and Wildlife 16 Conservation Commission with the Department in 17 addressing this issue, and we look forward to 18 be -- participating in that working group. 19 Thank you. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Manley. 21 MS. GENGENBACH: Good morning. I'm 22 Marianne Gengenbach with the 23 Nature Conservancy. 24 I'd like to say that we're pleased to see 25 this modified proposal out here calling for the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 85 December 14, 1999 1 moratorium, while new recommendations are 2 created. We do think there are conditions 3 under which this practice can be permitted 4 and -- without causing damage, and that we can 5 come to some kind of solution. We look forward 6 to being part of that process. 7 We're also heartened to see that the 8 proposal seems to call for some increased 9 monitoring during that time, because it was -- 10 some of our scientific folks that work with the 11 gulf coastal ecosystem partnership that have 12 noted what appears to be either continued 13 illegal activity, or violations of existing 14 permits. 15 We do want to reiterate that we have six 16 basic concerns that we hope are addressed 17 during the process of developing the new 18 recommendations. 19 First of all, we think it's very important 20 to have careful and adequate monitoring before 21 and after the practices of deadhead logging to 22 assure that habitat for endangered species is 23 not harmed. 24 We also think it's important to take into 25 account that the percentage of woody debris in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 86 December 14, 1999 1 these rivers not only affects the biology, but 2 also the physical characteristics of these 3 streams, and that's important to the ecosystem. 4 Third, there are different types of rivers, 5 and some rivers are not suited, I think we'll 6 find, for the practice of deadhead logging. 7 The different types of rivers are subject to 8 sedimentation problems where deadhead logging 9 could cause serious further damage. 10 Fourth, we think it's important to 11 recognize differences in system health within 12 sections of rivers themselves, and tighten up 13 those areas where there should be no deadhead 14 logging. 15 Fifth, we think that it's important to 16 recognize the impact that other types of 17 problems on these rivers can have on the 18 deadhead logging impact. For example, if 19 there's already a lot of soil erosion going on, 20 then deadhead logging can have a further 21 detrimental effect. 22 And finally, we think that it's very 23 important to look very closely at the proposed 24 mitigation recommendations because of the fact 25 that we're not exactly sure that replacing ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 87 December 14, 1999 1 something that's not very old and deteriorates 2 a lot faster is going to provide the same 3 biological function as the current deadheads do 4 for the ecosystem. 5 Now, inherent in these concerns is the fact 6 that we think that this study conducted over 7 the next few months is likely to yield 8 information that renders certain rivers or 9 certain sections of rivers as being unsuitable 10 for this practice. 11 And since current permits are being allowed 12 to continue during this moratorium, we would 13 very much urge that this process be expedited 14 so the recommendations can be put in place 15 quickly, because we really don't want 16 irreversible damage to occur on those rivers 17 where there's practices unsuitable. 18 Thank you. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 20 MR. DRAPER: Good morning. My name is 21 Eric Draper. I'm representing the combined 22 Audubon societies. 23 I'm here to -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's your new name going 25 to be? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 88 December 14, 1999 1 What's the new name going to be? 2 MR. DRAPER: Now, that's putting me on the 3 spot. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, never mind then. 5 We'll -- we'll catch you next -- 6 MR. DRAPER: How about Combined Audubon 7 Societies? I'm going to let Stuart Charles 8 continue to arm wrestle over that one. 9 Whoever we are, we would prefer that the 10 practice of recovering deadhead timbers be 11 ended on the basis of the DEP report, which 12 finds that the practice has a negative effect 13 on fish and wildlife. 14 Nevertheless, we support the amended item 15 of accepting the report and placing a 16 moratorium on new permits, and those permits 17 without regulatory approval for a four-month 18 period. 19 We'll work with the Department to -- to 20 come up with some additional restrictions on 21 how this practice could be used in a way that 22 is completely protective of the environment 23 during that interim period. 24 Thank you. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 89 December 14, 1999 1 Good morning. 2 MR. REID: Good morning, sir. 3 Thank you for inviting us. 4 I'm Bob Reid. I'm a conservation officer 5 of the Choctawhatchee Audubon Society. I do 6 know our name. 7 I -- our Board met two days ago, and have 8 asked me to come over and express the position 9 of Choctawhatchee Audubon. 10 Choctawhatchee Audubon is a -- comprised of 11 more than 600 families and individuals in 12 Okaloosa, Santa Rosa, and Walton Counties. 13 Every indication suggests that extracting 14 these deadhead logs is doing serious damage to 15 our streams. This would be true, even if the 16 permit conditions were being stringently met. 17 But they're not. 18 In absence of on-site monitoring, permit 19 violations have become commonplace. I've 20 personally seen where logs were extracted from 21 stream banks and river bends, and within 10 to 22 15 feet of the shoreline, sites specifically 23 prohibited are made off limits by terms of the 24 permit. I believe you've seen the photos that 25 support this. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 90 December 14, 1999 1 But even if the violations were halted -- 2 if all violations were halted, damage is still 3 being done to the ecosystem. How much, nobody 4 knows. 5 To my knowledge, no survey has determined 6 how many logs exist in which streams. We 7 really have no idea of the magnitude of the 8 issue because it's only after the fact that 9 loggers report to you how many logs they've 10 recovered. 11 Studies like that done by DEP aquatic 12 biologist Donald Ray show very high value in 13 leaving deadhead logs as they are. To mitigate 14 the loss of what have become permanent fixtures 15 in our streams, DEP now proposes to replace 16 extracted deadheads with woody debris. 17 As a practicing forester with 50 years 18 experience in the wood, I have experience with 19 disposing of tree tops and limbs. 20 Such debris is remarkably short-lived. 21 While a solid chunk of heart pine embedded in a 22 stream bed can remain intact for hundreds of 23 years, the pithy tops and limbs proposed for 24 mitigation will rot away in less than a decade. 25 Since science shows our streams are already ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 91 December 14, 1999 1 deficient in woody matter -- I'm talking about 2 the streams of northwest Florida -- what do we 3 propose to do ten years from now when the 4 debris we toss in today has rotted away? Does 5 it become the taxpayers' perpetual 6 responsibility? 7 Some argue that despite there having 8 been -- their having been there many human 9 generations, the presence of these logs 10 constitutes an unnatural condition in our 11 streams. I agree. 12 But merely pulling them out can in no way 13 restore a preEuropean condition. There's a lot 14 more sediment today, especially in non-alluvial 15 streams, like our Blackwater streams. 16 Deadheads help form eddy pools in what are 17 otherwise mostly sterile, sandy bottoms. It's 18 in these eddy pools and around these logs that 19 the critters congregate. Just ask any 20 fisherman. 21 These original growth deadhead logs date 22 from another era. No one in this room put them 23 there. They were abandoned as lost property 24 100 years ago, and most I've seen do not have 25 obvious identifiable brands or marks. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 92 December 14, 1999 1 I've read the Attorney General's 1996 legal 2 opinion as to their ownership, and it certainly 3 appears such logs should belong to the State. 4 No question they do have a high market 5 value. But I believe they have an even higher 6 market val-- a higher value to the State left 7 where they are. 8 Why don't we leave these irreplaceable logs 9 in situ for now and clarify their ownership in 10 the courts. If the judge says these loggers 11 have a propriety interest, the State should 12 consider buying that interest from them, which 13 brings us back to the issue of illegal deadhead 14 logging. 15 It was an acknowledged inability on the 16 part of the State to control such illegal 17 activity that led to the permit system in the 18 first place. We believe admitting defeat is 19 not a proper response. 20 In the best interest of healthy Florida 21 streams, we urge you to direct an immediate 22 halt to all deadhead logging, clarify or obtain 23 legal State ownership of all such logs, provide 24 enforcement to curtail illegal log harvest, and 25 publicize the policy so private citizens will ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 93 December 14, 1999 1 again become watchful monitors for illegal 2 activity. 3 Thank you. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 5 MR. ARD: Good morning, Governor, members 6 of the Cabinet. My name is Sam Ard. I'm 7 representing River Bend Lumber Company. 8 River Bend Lumber Company is -- is -- has a 9 permit to operate on the Yellow River. 10 We did not get our permit until September. 11 Since September in complying with the permit, 12 when -- when you float a log at the -- they 13 will not allow it to bump on the bottom. So we 14 do not have enough water to really float the 15 log yet. There's only been two days where we 16 were able to actually remove logs from the 17 river. 18 There is -- there is quite a few logs out 19 there. And what -- the point that I would like 20 to -- for you to consider is this: 21 It is not a natural condition, anymore than 22 mining limestone up the hill and taking it and 23 dropping it into the river, too. 24 What has happened was when -- when the 25 state -- when the state was clear cut between ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 94 December 14, 1999 1 1880 and 1920, longleaf pine were taken from 2 the hills, they were -- you tried to float them 3 down the river to get to the mill, they were 4 very dense, very heavy, and they sank. 5 And the longleaf pine is not -- does not 6 grow on a riverbank. I can't imagine the storm 7 it would take to take these pines off the hill, 8 remove the limbs, basic-- and roots, basically 9 make them look like a utility pole, and then 10 lay them in the river. 11 And typically how they sank is one end 12 would get heavy, hang on the bottom, it would 13 swing with the current, and sink longitudinally 14 in the river. They're not hollow, most of them 15 do not have bark. But the -- the wood does 16 have a very high value. 17 And we support the agreement that you have 18 before you, the -- the item, and I'll be glad 19 to answer any questions. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Sam. 21 MR. ARD: Thank you. 22 MR. TOWNSEND: Good morning, Governor and 23 Cabinet. My name is John Townsend. I'm an 24 attorney in Fort Walton Beach. I'm here on 25 behalf of River Bend Trading Company, Inc., who ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 95 December 14, 1999 1 holds permits in the Blackwater and 2 Yellow Rivers in the panhandle. 3 While we do not necessarily agree with all 4 the information that's been presented to 5 your -- your Aides from various speakers, or 6 here this morning, I'm not going to go into 7 refuting those for you today. Suffice it to 8 say that we rise in support of the 9 recommendation before you. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- a quick question. 14 Is -- 15 For the attorney that just spoke. 16 Either one of you actually. 17 The suggestion by Fuller that you put some 18 visible posting of the permit upstream and 19 downstream, is that a -- a feasible thing? 20 MR. TOWNSEND: Yes. We've spoken about 21 that, and we have no problem. In fact, my 22 clients wholeheartedly endorse that. 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. 24 MR. ARD: Same here, General. 25 And also we understand that Commissioner ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 96 December 14, 1999 1 Crawford would like to see some type best 2 management practices for this, and we'll be 3 glad to make that a part of it. We think it's 4 a good idea. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments? 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, I guess -- 8 Governor -- I -- I'd like to move the staff 9 recommendation, and just add a -- some 10 additional language that kind of incorporates 11 the spirit of what I think David is moving 12 anyway, we've done in forestry, put together 13 the best management practices kind of in a 14 formal basis. 15 And I'd like to move that -- move the item 16 with the additional caveat that DEP establish a 17 working group that includes -- but not limited 18 to -- the Division of Forestry and the Florida 19 Fish and Wildlife Commission. 20 This working group will be responsible for 21 identifying best management practices for 22 removal of precut timber and mitigation. 23 This working group should also design and 24 recommend a procedure for educational programs 25 that loggers would need to complete as a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 97 December 14, 1999 1 condition of -- of the user permit. 2 So with that, which I think -- I think the 3 Department's okay with that, and it kind of 4 says a lot about what you're doing anyway. 5 And -- but I think it kind of clarifies it 6 some. 7 I'd move that. 8 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion -- a 11 second? 12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Could I, Governor, 13 add an -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- amendment to 16 that? 17 I think the idea suggested by Fuller, and 18 agreed to by at least the representatives of 19 the industry here, to put the posted -- post 20 the permits -- 21 MR. STRUHS: Uh-hum. 22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- on either side of 23 the operating -- you know, permitted area would 24 serve, I think, to allow citizens to have a 25 better opportunity to monitor. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 98 December 14, 1999 1 So with that addition, I -- 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll second that. 3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I'd like to amend 4 it. 5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'd accept that to 6 the -- as an amendment to the -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion with two 8 amendments. 9 There's a second. 10 All in favor, say aye. 11 THE CABINET: Aye. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 13 Thank you. 14 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 6. 16 MR. STRUHS: We recommend approval of Item 17 Number 6, which is the acquisition of a -- 18 assignment of an option agreement to acquire 19 363 acres in the Perdido Pitcher Plant Prairie. 20 It's a part of the CARL project, in cooperation 21 with the Nature Conservancy. 22 And I would point out that this acquisition 23 is for 70 percent of the appraised value. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: You should point that out. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 99 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on 6. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 5 Without objection, it's approved. 6 MR. STRUHS: Item Number -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Congratulations on the 8 70 percent thing. 9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Maybe we can start 10 averaging these things, you know, 70 below, 11 10 above. 12 MR. STRUHS: No, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's sort of how 14 we do it. We buy high, and sell low. 15 MR. STRUHS: As a -- Item Number 7, we 16 recommend approval. 17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on 7. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 21 Without objection, it's approved. 22 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 8, recommend 23 approval. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on 8. 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 100 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 2 Moved and seconded. 3 Without objection, it's approved. 4 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 9, recommend 5 approval. 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on 9. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 10 Without objection, it's approved. 11 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 10, we recommend 12 approval. 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 11, we recommend 18 approval. 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on -- 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on 11. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 25 Without objection, it's approved. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 101 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer 2 12. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 4 MR. STRUHS: Motion to -- 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: To defer -- 6 MR. STRUHS: -- defer. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- 12. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: On Number 11? 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: On 12. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Twelve. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: To defer. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think we did 11 already. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. 16 Second. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a second. 18 There's a motion and a second to defer. 19 Without objection, it's approved. 20 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 21 Item Number 13, we recommend approval. 22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 25 Without objection, it's approved. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 102 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 14, recommend 2 approval. 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 15, recommend 9 approval. 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 13 Without objection, it's approved. 14 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 16, we recommend 15 approval. 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second it. 18 It is contingent on the appraisal update, I 19 presume; is that correct? 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary? 21 MR. STRUHS: I'm sorry, General? It's 22 contingent upon the -- 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: On the -- the 24 update -- outcome of the appraisal update? 25 MR. STRUHS: I believe that's correct. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 103 December 14, 1999 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. 2 MR. STRUHS: We actually have folks here 3 from the -- I believe Board of Regents who 4 could answer that, if you -- if you -- 5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. I -- I don't 6 have -- as long as we -- 7 MR. STRUHS: Okay. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion. 9 Is there a second? 10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 12 Without objection, it's approved. 13 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 17, I'd like to 14 add just a bit of color commentary there to 15 give it some context. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: More commentary? 17 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir. 18 At this point in Florida 2-- at this point 19 in Florida, 22 different counties have passed 20 some kind of bond initiative for locally 21 important conservation land acquisition 22 programs. These are typically what we call the 23 bargain shared acquisitions. 24 With 22 counties now engaged in their own 25 land acquisition programs, there's a growing ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 104 December 14, 1999 1 interest in how title might be shared between 2 the State and -- and counties. 3 In order to address this in a comprehensive 4 way, we have prepared a report, which we are 5 hoping you will accept. You would then, if you 6 approve the recommendation, would be to direct 7 the staff to develop procedures based on that 8 report. 9 And -- and, third, and perhaps most 10 important, direct the staff to develop for your 11 approval, procedures for resolving any future 12 ownership or management conflicts in the event 13 that the title is shared between the County and 14 the State. 15 I would add that these should be the 16 exceptions rather than the rule. But it's 17 important to plan ahead. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Have -- do we have shared 19 property? 20 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir. Most commonly, it's 21 done with Water Management Districts where 22 title is shared. But we're seeing more and 23 more where the County -- because the County 24 citizens are taxing themselves to -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: I see. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 105 December 14, 1999 1 MR. STRUHS: -- have an interest, they 2 would like some ownership of the title as well. 3 And we just want to make sure that there are 4 clear rules of the road so that that 5 relationship and partnership is a good one. 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to approve. 7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 9 second -- a second. 10 Without objection, it's approved. 11 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 18, I'm going to 12 invite Eva Armstrong, Director of the Division 13 of State Lands, to handle this agenda item. 14 I have a previous engagement I need to head 15 off to. And also would suggest that the 16 history on this is -- is -- is one that is long 17 and complex. And Eva is far better equipped 18 than I to present that to you. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning, Governor, 20 members of the Cabinet. 21 I won't stretch out the whole history, but 22 I thought there were a couple of items that 23 were important on -- out of that history. 24 Mr. Hilliard is the applicant here. He 25 came to the State most recently in '96 to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 106 December 14, 1999 1 acquire a 40-acre parcel that's -- 6.78 acres 2 is in front of you today. 3 His family had leased this site some years 4 ago, and in 1971, came back to re-lease it. 5 And at that time, the Trustees said, no way, it 6 is reclaimed lake bottom next to 7 Lake Okeechobee, and we want to make an overall 8 policy about how we handle those lands around 9 Lake Okeechobee. 10 He continued over time to pursue to 11 purchase it, and the Trustees didn't take any 12 action. 13 In '96, Glades County School Board wrote to 14 the Trustees and said, we'd like to acquire the 15 property for school -- actually it was for the 16 Future Farmers of America. 17 The staff at that time advertised it as 18 though to surplus the property. Mr. Hilliard, 19 being the adjacent property owner, contacted 20 the School Board and said, no, wait a minute, 21 my family's been interested in a long time -- 22 in this a long time, convinced them to back out 23 of wanting the property, and then pursued again 24 with the State. 25 We do have documentation to this in the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 107 December 14, 1999 1 backup. 2 So then he pursued acquiring the land from 3 the Trustees. Now, between that time period, 4 even though he had no -- had no lease, and his 5 family had leased it in the past, he decided 6 he'd go ahead and plant orange trees on those 7 6.78 acres. 8 And -- which were -- I mean, it's -- he was 9 trespassing on public property. 10 This summer enter -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: How long was he 12 trespassing? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nine years, roughly. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're right on top of 15 things, aren't we, of -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- landlords. I'll tell 18 you what. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 20 When I -- when you appointed me to take 21 over this job, one of the first issues I heard 22 about was the Hilliard property. 23 And I truly believe we ought to do 24 everything we can to get citizens in and get 25 their issues resolved, and they're yes or no. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 108 December 14, 1999 1 So staff jumped on it. 2 Reclaimed lake bottom had not been sold in 3 ten years, so we stumbled on this one a little 4 bit, I'll tell you up-front. 5 He agreed up-front also -- because the 6 Division of State Lands has no budget, no 7 spending authority for those expenses on 8 surveys or appraisals when we -- when we sell 9 land. 10 We do to buy it, but not to sell it. We 11 don't have the ability to pay that. 12 So he agreed up-front, again in writing, 13 that he would pay the appraisal costs for the 14 full 40 acres. At that point, we were talking 15 about the whole piece. 16 It goes through the LAMAC process where -- 17 which is required by law. They looked at it 18 and said, well, of the 40, 33 acres, which are 19 immediately adjacent to the lake, you ought to 20 lease, because the State may need it sometime. 21 But you could certainly sell the 6.78, because 22 it's across the road, it's not right next to 23 another parcel. 24 So at that point, we decided we would go 25 forward with that recommendation. We then ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 109 December 14, 1999 1 surveyed Water Management District twice to 2 make sure they didn't want either one of these 3 parcels, and they said, no, they didn't -- 4 didn't see a future need for this site. 5 And Office of Greenways and Trails, they 6 said, wait a minute, we really want the 7 33 acres because we're planning a trail around 8 Lake Okeechobee, and it could be one of our 9 potential trail heads. 10 So we said, okay. You know, Mr. Hilliard, 11 we're going to -- we can't do the 33, but we -- 12 let's move forward on the 6.78. 13 We came to the Cabinet Aides several weeks 14 ago. Mr. Craft, who is his representative, 15 appeared on his behalf, was very concerned -- 16 Oh, in the meantime. I'm sorry. 17 In the meantime, we negotiated with 18 Mr. Hilliard -- sorry -- for a purchase price 19 of this 6.7 acres based on the appraised value, 20 which was $19,700. 21 We come to the Cabinet Aides because 22 Mr. Hilliard's representative was concerned 23 about some item -- some -- some discussion in 24 the item. We deferred it to this meeting. 25 In the interim time as we're putting ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 110 December 14, 1999 1 together the final documents -- and keep in 2 mind, we hadn't sold one of these in 3 ten years -- staff discovers there's a 1919 law 4 that requires a deed restriction on all 5 reclaimed lake bottom that the Trustees sell. 6 And that says that, in the event the Trustees 7 need to go in and put in a canal or a water 8 structure, the Trustees can come back and use 9 the property. 10 So at that point in time, Mr. Hilliard, and 11 some other people got real excited about the 12 fact that he was being assessed full appraised 13 value for the 6.78, including -- even though 14 the deed restriction would be put on there. 15 Trying to think what else is pertinent to 16 this decision today. 17 I will tell -- oh, a couple -- one or two 18 other minor points. 19 One, when you sell reclaimed lake bottom by 20 statute, it goes into the Education Trust Fund. 21 Two, we -- I understand there's some 22 considerations for either reducing the lease 23 fees in arrears, which was what we had added to 24 the item based on Cabinet Aides' recommendation 25 the first time around. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 111 December 14, 1999 1 They were concerned that the man had been 2 using our property illegally for nine years, 3 and there ought to be some compensation to the 4 State; or, two, reducing the amount he would 5 pay for the appraisal; or, three, reducing the 6 price he pays. 7 And I would just -- whatever you decide 8 is -- is fine. I feel that it's our 9 responsibility to give you the best financial 10 deal in terms of the State of Florida. 11 And I would just urge you to consider the 12 overall impact to the purchase -- bottom line 13 purchase price, by whatever adjustment you 14 make. 15 So if I can answer any questions. 16 And I think Mr. Hilliard's representative 17 is here if you have questions of him, too. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How much did -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom. 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- the State lose 22 in lease fees for those nine years? 23 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was estimated at 24 seven hundred and two dollars based on -- 25 right. $78 a year per acre. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 112 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: $78 a year -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. For the 6 -- 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- per acre? 4 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- 6 acres, right. 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's the 6 6 acres. Wasn't -- that -- he was only using 7 6, not 40? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, he only planted 6. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The 33 across the road, we 11 understood that he had run cattle on. But 12 we -- we didn't address that in this. I didn't 13 have proof of that. What we were dealing with 14 is what we knew, which was, he had planted 15 oranges on the 6.78 -- 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. My -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- acres. 18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- my other 19 question is: We have -- a Glades County 20 property appraiser has appraised this, and 21 I guess has been -- would be collecting taxes 22 on a value of $3250 per acre. 23 Yet we are at -- at the starting point, at 24 2900 an acre. And I know that there's some 25 people that want to lower that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 113 December 14, 1999 1 Why such a -- I mean, usually the 2 appraised -- the County -- property appraisers 3 are less than the market value. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. But you'll -- 5 you'll find around the state, when -- when they 6 go in to assess property for taxes, it's a 7 different measurement -- a different reason for 8 determining value, and -- and a different 9 method for doing it than appraising for a fair 10 market value. 11 And in Glades County, which is a 12 financially economically depressed area, 13 there -- you will find with other counties that 14 many times their apprais-- their tax assessment 15 values are higher than you would find in 16 similar counties. 17 Now, the exact situation here, I can't 18 address. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But -- 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- there's 22 supposed to be -- 23 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- sometimes it's not a 24 great -- 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- the Department ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 114 December 14, 1999 1 of Revenue's supposed to make sure they're all 2 equalized. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Understand. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Another Board rule, 5 Commissioner Gallagher coming up -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not my area. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- next month. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Eva -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- you say 11 it's been over ten years since we -- we've sold 12 lake bottom? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How many 15 times has the State sold lake bottom? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Would you 18 believe that it's -- that we sold in the last 19 31 years, 14 acres? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I would believe that. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And so, 22 therefore, maybe -- maybe it's not a good idea 23 to sell lake bottom. And maybe other Boards 24 that sat up here have decided that -- used to 25 be, lake bottom, we might need it again. And ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 115 December 14, 1999 1 if we sell it, we're probably going to buy it 2 back for a whole lot more money. 3 Was leasing this thing a -- 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's what 5 usually happens. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- a factor? 7 Just -- I mean, just keep the -- why don't we 8 just lease it to him? $78 a year doesn't sound 9 like -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we -- we -- we did 11 discuss both of those issues. So let me 12 respond to both of them. 13 Let me do the $78 a year first. If you do 14 that, it's going to cost us far more in terms 15 of administering the lease than you'll ever 16 collect. I mean, from a financial basis, it 17 doesn't make a lot of sense. 18 Number two, this is an isolated parcel. 19 It's very rare. I mean, the -- the idea that 20 we would need this seems rather extreme. The 21 33 acres, absolutely, it's right on the lake. 22 This is separated from the lake by a road, 23 and it's just kind of doubt-- in our view, it 24 was doubtful that it would be needed in the 25 future. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 116 December 14, 1999 1 Checking with the Water Management District 2 twice, they had no future plans for this area. 3 So we felt it was easier just to go ahead and 4 sell the 6.38. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. I -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: On the other -- 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- okay. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- on the reclaimed lake 9 bottom, I -- I totally agree with you. And it 10 was based on -- on those decisions, the fact it 11 was separated from the lake by a road; it was a 12 very small parcel; it's not one we would go in 13 and actively manage, you know. 14 That's why we thought in this case, it 15 probably makes more sense, the man wants to buy 16 it, sell it to him. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right now 18 there's orange trees on it. 19 Is there a restriction -- do you have a 20 restriction in this to where this person cannot 21 use it for any other reason other than 22 agriculture? 23 Might be a location for a gas station? We 24 may not want a gas station there. 25 I mean, do you have any restrictions to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 117 December 14, 1999 1 where it can only be used for agriculture, and 2 if it -- and if it doesn't, it gets reverted 3 back to the State? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, sir, it's not written 5 that way now. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: All right. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It just has the deed 8 restriction for water control structures. 9 That's my words, not -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we hear from the -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Certainly. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the owner, or his 13 representative? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Mr. Craft. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Unless you don't -- guys 16 don't want to speak. 17 MR. HILLIARD: Good morning, gentlemen. 18 Governor -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you Mr. Hilliard? 20 MR. HILLIARD: I'm Ernest Hilliard. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 22 MR. HILLIARD: Thank you. 23 I appreciate you fellows hearing this thing 24 this morning. 25 It's been a long road. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 118 December 14, 1999 1 I don't intend to burden you with the 2 32 years of track that I've put on this place. 3 The biggest reason that I would like to buy 4 this property is to square up my property, 5 which this meander line, which was the original 6 edge of the lake, came around and it makes a 7 very long taper up in front of my property. 8 It's also on the watershed side of my property. 9 I'm in a -- an irrigation and drainage 10 district, and that water flows to the north. 11 Perhaps you're not familiar with it, and 12 DEP is not familiar with it probably. But this 13 is not a Lake Okeechobee watershed. This is a 14 watershed that goes to the Caloosahatchee River 15 to Fort Myers. 16 And so whatever happens on that property, a 17 gas station, as you spoke, naturally that 18 there's not much need for a gas station there. 19 But whatever you used it for would not 20 necessarily affect anything from 21 Lake Okeechobee. I seriously don't believe 22 that you believe in your life, or anybody 23 else's, that the Hoover Dike will be destroyed, 24 and decide to do something different with the 25 dike that goes around Lake Okeechobee. Many ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 119 December 14, 1999 1 millions of dollars were spent to produce that, 2 and it is complete. 3 As I said, my intention is to square my 4 property. I originally bought this property in 5 1967, and was issued a -- an assignment of 6 lease from the State. 7 I renewed it, and then in 1971 or '2, they 8 decided that they would not lease it again. 9 They told -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why did you buy the 11 property and then lease it? Was -- 12 MR. HILLIARD: I tried to buy the -- well, 13 Governor, I had the money to make the payment 14 on the -- on the property of which I bought, 15 and I -- I didn't try to buy it until 1969, at 16 which I figured that I could afford it at that 17 time. 18 The property -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did you buy the -- 20 MR. HILLIARD: -- at that time was being 21 sold around me for $300 an acre. And I decided 22 that I could have afforded that. 23 As we went forward, they said, no, they 24 wasn't going to lease it. So I pulled my 25 cattle and -- and equipment and whatever else I ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 120 December 14, 1999 1 had on that piece of property that was usable 2 across this dirt road in front of my property. 3 I pulled my stuff off. 4 The 6 acres of which we're discussing is in 5 my field, so to speak. And so it's a -- it's 6 not separated from my property in any way, and 7 was not separated ever from my property, only 8 by a survey of the meander line of 9 Lake Okeechobee. 10 When I bought it, the word riparian owner 11 was used many times, of which I qualified at 12 the time. 13 Apparently that word is not dead yet, 14 because I've heard it here several times this 15 morning. 16 But anyway, the -- the idea that I thought 17 this land sooner or later will come to me. 18 To make this story real long, I applied 19 four times. In 1979, I tried again. I wanted 20 to plant some orange trees on my property. Not 21 yours, but mine. 22 But in order to do that, I had to arrange 23 the irrigation on my property to go to the 24 north, which is across your little piece -- 25 6 acres. And so when I brought the grader ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 121 December 14, 1999 1 ditches that the trees are planted on across, I 2 didn't dig a canal, or anything like that. 3 I put the water in the road ditch, of which 4 the County had recently in the last five or 5 six years, had paved that road. So now it was 6 a paved thoroughfare through that property. 7 So I -- I brought that irrigation water on 8 through, and I planted trees on approximately 9 5 acres of your land. I left an 10 acre-and-a-half of -- of land out of which I 11 left some of my land out, because of the way 12 the taper is in this particular piece of 13 property. 14 And the fact that I didn't remove the trees 15 that were there on your property -- State's 16 property, my property, your property -- I 17 didn't remove those trees. I -- I didn't dig 18 these ditches to disturb anything. 19 But -- for I -- I felt that at one time, 20 you would deal with me, and allow me to 21 continue -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Hilliard -- 23 MR. HILLIARD: -- to work my property. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- for a second. 25 I'm -- the one part that -- we're getting ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 122 December 14, 1999 1 in a lot more detail than we probably need to. 2 Maybe -- maybe not. 3 But the one question that I -- that I 4 missed. I -- I asked Eva Armstrong how the 5 State didn't know that our property had 6 orange groves on it. 7 Perhaps I should ask you the question: How 8 did you plant orange trees on our property? 9 MR. HILLIARD: Certainly not in the dark, 10 Governor. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I didn't think so. 12 Well, that's enlightening. 13 But it wasn't your property, was it? 14 MR. HILLIARD: Sir? 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: It wasn't your property. 16 MR. HILLIARD: It wasn't. It wasn't -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did you think -- 18 MR. HILLIARD: -- my property. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it was? 20 MR. HILLIARD: But there's no separation 21 between mine and yours in that particular area. 22 So it -- it was there. 23 I didn't -- but what's across the road, I 24 didn't. The only thing I've done across the 25 road is for the last 30 years, I've -- up until ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 123 December 14, 1999 1 two years ago, I've mowed and maintained that 2 property to keep the underbrush from literally 3 taking that property. 4 It's backed up by 13 or 14 acres of 5 melaleuca swamp, of which you're spending 6 millions of dollars every day to eradicate in 7 Florida. 8 So, in -- in effect, I've probably saved 9 you a lot of money by wearing out my equipment, 10 maintaining this piece of property only for the 11 purpose of -- to keep it in reasonable shape. 12 I quit two years ago. And if -- I'm sorry 13 I didn't bring you some pictures. But now 14 the -- the Brazilian holly, Brazilian pepper, 15 Napier grass, horse nettles, all kinds of -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 17 MR. HILLIARD: -- invasive type shrubbery 18 has taken it. 19 If there's any questions or any more 20 questions you'd like to ask me in particular, 21 I'll be glad to answer them to the best of my 22 ability and truth. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner? 24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, 25 I think -- I -- I'd just like to make a motion. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 124 December 14, 1999 1 I think both sides have been trying to -- 2 to work this out. And -- and I think what I 3 have here might be fairly reasonable. 4 And I -- and the Attorney General's 5 concerned, we're not doing the 40 acres, we're 6 just doing a very small part. 7 But -- so I'd like to -- to move the -- the 8 approval of the acquisition by Mr. Hilliard 9 with the following: That we decrease the 10 original agreed selling price from 19,700, down 11 to fourteen thousand seven seventy-five, which 12 is the amended appraised value based on the 13 added deed restriction on the property, which 14 I think that deed restriction, General, would 15 probably keep any structure off -- off of it, 16 because we have the right to actually go back 17 on it if we need to. 18 So that would be the first point. 19 The second one, since we're not going to 20 lease the remaining 33.22 acres, which is part 21 of the first appraisal costs agreed to by the 22 buyer, the appraisal costs should be reduced by 23 one-third. This one third would be subtracted 24 from the selling price of the 14,775 due -- due 25 DEP. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 125 December 14, 1999 1 Additionally, I move that we charge the 2 buyer lease fees in arrears in the amount of 3 $702, which is the amount that Eva mentioned, 4 which reflects the usage of the 6.78 acres for 5 approximately ten years. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion. 7 Is there a second? 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I have a -- a 9 question of Eva, please. 10 Other than the squaring up of 11 Mr. Hilliard's property, what is the urgency -- 12 real urgency in selling this land at a price 13 that, according to Commissioner Gallagher, is 14 substantially below the tax appraisal price? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fairness to Mr. Hilliard. 16 There is -- 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Say it -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fairness. 19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- say that -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fairness -- 21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Fairness? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to Mr. Hilliard. 23 Yes, sir. 24 Because, you know, for all our fumblings 25 around, he's been trying for -- and -- and his ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 126 December 14, 1999 1 illegally using the land, he has for some time 2 tried to pursue this property. And I think in 3 fairness to him, a yes or no. 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, there -- there 5 are a lot of people that would like to buy 6 State property. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And was -- now we're 9 going to apply the fairness rule to the sale of 10 the property; is that it? State property? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well -- 12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Pretty good rule. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- fairness to a taxpayer 14 who's been trying to buy the land. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Fairness to 16 taxpayer. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no other -- 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes. That's a good 19 point. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- there is no other urgent 21 reason to -- to sell this property. 22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Other than fairness 23 to Mr. Hilliard -- 24 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Nodding head.) 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- who wants to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 127 December 14, 1999 1 square up his property. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hum. 3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hum. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: I would -- I would venture 6 to say -- I'm not -- I'm not a gambling man. 7 But I would -- if I was, I'd bet you a 8 dollar that the appraiser at Glades County 9 Courthouse has not factored in the restrictive 10 convenant that the State has on all these 11 properties that they -- that they own. 12 Being one of your soul mates on appraised 13 values and making sure we sell it at below 14 appraised value, I want to make sure that -- 15 that -- that I stated that, just so that there 16 is some consistency and people don't think that 17 I'm veering off based on what I'm going to do 18 on my vote. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- so where 20 are we now? We look -- we -- is the discussion 21 on whether we're going to -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have a -- a motion -- 23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- approve 14,000 24 or -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 128 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- 19,000 first? 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we have a motion to sell 3 the property at $14,775; lower the appraisal 4 costs, which is significant -- it's a 5 significant percentage of the entire purchase 6 price, I might add. This appraiser made a 7 pretty -- pretty good deal -- by a third; and 8 ask the buyer of the property to pay back rent 9 for the property he used over the last 10 ten years equal to the market rent. 11 That is what's on the table. There's been 12 a motion. 13 Is there a second? 14 And we need five votes. 15 I can't second it, General Butterworth? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You can give 17 the Chair to -- to the Secretary of State, 18 who's not here -- to me, and then you can -- 19 then you can -- you can second it. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I give the Chair to 21 you? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I may not 23 recognize you. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're dying here, pal. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 129 December 14, 1999 1 and, Governor, I might not give it back. 2 Yes, Governor, you're -- you're recognized. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: I second the motion. 4 We're -- we're going down in flames I'm 5 afraid here. But -- 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If I refuse 7 to give the gavel back, what happens? 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 9 second. 10 Can I have the -- the floor back to finish 11 the vote, or would you like to do it? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll give it 13 back to you, Governor. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 15 There's a motion and a second -- 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Were you 17 nervous for a while there? 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah, I'm glad I got it. 19 It's a good civics class for all the 20 educators out in the room about the dealings of 21 the Cabinet. 22 All in favor, say aye. 23 THE CABINET: Aye. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 130 December 14, 1999 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Unfortunately, because 3 Secretary of State Harris is not here, we 4 needed five votes -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and the motion is 7 denied. 8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, could I 9 make one point? Just -- if the concern is the 10 appraised value, the -- as I understand it, we 11 are paying -- we are charging the appraised 12 value. 13 The -- the appraisal was 19,700, and the -- 14 and the appraiser, upon factoring in the 15 restrictive convenant, then reduced it down to 16 fourteen thousand seven seventy-five. So 17 actually that is the appraised value. 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If -- if that 19 question is directed to me, that's only part of 20 my concern. 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay. I just -- I 22 just thought it would just -- 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The other element of 24 my concern is selling State lands without good 25 reason. And to square up Mr. Hilliard's land ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 131 December 14, 1999 1 is not sufficient -- sufficiently good reason 2 for me. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: There is a 4 way out, Governor, if you wanted -- what if we 5 agreed to lease him this land for X number of 6 years, and that will keep alive -- that will 7 keep his thing going, and it keeps the issue 8 alive for -- for another day, and we can argue 9 out why -- what we may or may not want to sell 10 it for among -- I see no reason to sell this 11 land. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, he can come back to 13 us -- the -- can't the Department -- can't 14 we -- 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'd like to move 16 to defer this issue until the first -- 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We've -- we've had a 18 motion, we've had a second, we've had a vote. 19 I would certainly support the good 20 stewardship that Mr. Hilliard has shown in 21 taking care of that land, and -- and give him 22 a -- a long-term lease, and certainly always 23 leave the option open then for him to -- to 24 come back. 25 But certainly give him satisfaction that he ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 132 December 14, 1999 1 can handle that land in a -- in a manner that 2 meets his requirements as far as his business 3 concerns are. 4 So I -- I -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll work that out. 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- if that's 7 appropriate, I'd make a motion that we bring 8 back -- or recommend that you bring back a 9 long-term lease to meet Mr. Hilliard's needs. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have one 13 question, Governor. As opposed to bringing it 14 back, why don't we just resolve it today, make 15 it into a long-term lease today. 16 And I don't even care about the rent. That 17 doesn't bother me. 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Nor do I. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: You don't care about the 20 covenants that would allow for the State to 21 maintain control -- 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No, I -- 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We still own it. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- about the 25 covenants, because we own it. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 133 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Long-term lease means the 2 guy that -- the lessee owns it if there's no 3 covenants, other than -- other than the one -- 4 you're satisfied with what we have here by law? 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, the -- 6 well, the ones we have there by law -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- and also 9 from the fact that -- I'm not -- what I mean -- 10 what I don't care about as much is the money, 11 because -- but the money issue's not what -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Hilliard, what do you 13 think about that? 14 MR. HILLIARD: What do you call a long-term 15 lease, General? 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- I 17 listened to the Attorney General, and he gets 18 very upset if we go 25 years as being a 19 long-term lease. I'd certainly put it at 20 25 years. 21 MR. HILLIARD: Is that what you -- you 22 consider -- 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, 24 I think we -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: We can negotiate -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 134 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I think 2 some of us -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- this to -- 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I think 5 some of us took the gavel. 6 MR. HILLIARD: You know, this -- this -- 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, what -- what 8 would you be willing to apply for a lease -- or 9 take a lease, for what length of time, 10 Mr. Hilliard? 11 MR. HILLIARD: Well, this is such a trivial 12 problem when you are faced with a lot of very 13 important things to do out here, and I'm sorry 14 I'm taking up your time. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. It is -- 16 MR. HILLIARD: I feel that -- 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- it is not a 18 trivial problem, because it reflects the way we 19 handle State lands. 20 And -- and you have to have been here a 21 number of times to see how we do some of these 22 things. And -- and it's a principle. It is 23 not trivial. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: In fact, I'm 25 beginning to think that maybe a trespasser ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 135 December 14, 1999 1 should not be able to get any real benefit from 2 the State, sir, if you're -- if you're that put 3 out by it. 4 MR. HILLIARD: Well, of course, that's your 5 prerogative to do whatever it -- you feel that 6 you must, or your conscience allows you to do. 7 I don't want to fuss with anybody as far as 8 the lease is concerned -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't we -- can we, 10 Mr. Hilliard, for your own sake here, you may 11 want to stand back and -- 12 What I suggest we do is we accept 13 General Milligan's motion to allow the 14 Department to negotiate a long-term -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- lease, and if it's not 17 acceptable -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we can't work it out, we 19 won't be back. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we don't lease it. And 21 you -- you leave the property. And if it is 22 acceptable to both parties, we'll see it at one 23 of the next Cabinet meetings. How about that? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That sounds 25 good, Governor. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 136 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't know if we need a 2 motion for that. Can we -- 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move to negotiate 4 a lease. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. I guess we do. 6 Is there a second? 7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 9 second. 10 Without objection, it's approved. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Hilliard, I hope you 13 have a wonderful Christmas. 14 And thank you for coming up. 15 MR. HILLIARD: You, too, Governor. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: It was not a trivial 17 matter, and it -- it is important. 18 General Milligan's absolutely right. This 19 is -- this is the most important thing we do. 20 And -- 21 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- whether it's a little 23 piece of parcel, or a big huge one like 24 Fisheating Creek, it's important to have some 25 principles that guide us. So -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 137 December 14, 1999 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Secretary -- 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move to defer 3 Number 19. 4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 7 second to defer. 8 Without objection, it's approved. 9 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 10 Improvement Fund Agenda was concluded.) 11 * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 138 December 14, 1999 1 (Attorney General Butterworth and 2 Treasurer Nelson were not present.) 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You want to take a 4 2-minute break before we hit education? 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. You want to do that? 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I think that's a 7 great -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: How about a -- we're going 9 to take a 2-minute break. 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me -- those of 11 you that want to speak, I advise you to get on 12 the list, because when we start, the list 13 closes down. 14 (Recess.) 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't we begin. 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think that's a 17 great idea. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education, 19 Item 1. 20 MR. PIERSON: Item 1 is the minutes of the 21 October 26, 1999, meeting. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion -- 23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- on minutes? 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 139 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's 4 approved. 5 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is the 2000-2001 6 Adult Fee Schedule. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a mot-- it's been 10 moved and seconded. 11 Without objection, it's approved. 12 MR. PIERSON: We would re-- we would 13 request holding Item 3 and 4 to the end. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. 15 MR. PIERSON: Item 5 is an amendment to 16 Rule 6A-6.0571, Vocational and Workforce 17 Development Education Standards and 18 Industry-Driven Benchmarks. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 22 It's been moved and seconded. 23 Without objection, it's approved. 24 MR. PIERSON: Item 6, is an amendment to 25 Rule 6A-14.030, Withdrawal and Forgiveness. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 140 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 4 Without objection, it's approved. 5 MR. PIERSON: Item 7 is an Amendment to 6 Rule 6H-1.030, Delegation of Powers and Duties. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 10 Without objection, it's approved. 11 MR. PIERSON: Item 8 is an appointment to 12 the Education Practices Commission, 13 Jerry E. Kelley. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 17 Without objection, it's approved. 18 MR. PIERSON: Item 9 is a reappointment and 19 appointment to the Board of Regents, 20 Adolfo Henriques, Reappointed; and, 21 James D. Corbin, Appointed, both terms 22 expiring -- oh, I'm sorry -- yes, both terms 23 expiring January 1st, 2006. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion. 25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 141 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 2 Without objection, it's approved. 3 MR. PIERSON: Item 10 is withdrawn. 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to 5 withdraw. 6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to 8 withdraw and a second. 9 Without objection, it's approved. 10 MR. PIERSON: Return to Item 3. It's a 11 report on the status of failing schools for 12 information presented by Andrea Willett, 13 Division of Public Schools. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon. 15 MS. WILLETT: Good afternoon. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Or good morning still. 17 MS. WILLETT: Thank you very much. 18 Sir? 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. 20 MS. WILLETT: Good morning. 21 I'll -- whatever -- I'll take direction 22 from you, sir, whichever one. 23 You have in front of you -- 24 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 25 room.) ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 142 December 14, 1999 1 MS. WILLETT: -- a packet that talks about 2 an interim update. We would like to share with 3 you some pieces of information about the very 4 positive things that are occurring in schools 5 as a result of this year's accountability 6 system. 7 On the right-hand side of your packet, you 8 have copies of the slides that you'll be 9 seeing, as well as an eight-and-a-half by 10 eleven map indicating both the F and D school 11 locations. 12 And from the map, you can see that we're 13 talking about statewide, not just concentrated 14 areas. 15 On the left-hand side, you have a map 16 that's broken out by regions, because I will be 17 discussing the activities in a regional basis. 18 And you also have some funding information. 19 That is a work in progress, not nearly complete 20 just yet. 21 We're talking about 78 schools statewide: 22 76 of them are first year schools, two of them 23 are second-year schools; 15 school districts; 24 elementary, middle, and high schools; we're 25 talking about approximately 50,000 children out ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 143 December 14, 1999 1 of the 2.5 million students in public schools 2 in the state of Florida. 3 There again, on the screen you'll see the 4 map showing the D and F schools. They are 5 concentrated in urban and rural; they are 6 north, they're south, they're east, they're 7 west, they're in the middle. They are all 8 over. 9 But statewide, we've seen a great deal of 10 movement in these schools, positive activities 11 for student learning. Schools have received 12 reading grants, and they are implementing them; 13 they've purchased more library books; they've 14 purchased other materials for the media center; 15 they've purchased supplies for after-school 16 programs; additional reading -- supplemental 17 reading materials; and additional teaching 18 support. 19 We've seen across the state an alignment to 20 Sunshine State Standards, and to a focus on the 21 kinds of activities -- performance activities 22 required by the Florida Comprehensive 23 Assessment Test, also called FCAT. 24 Districts have been very supportive, 25 particularly in the form of human resources ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 144 December 14, 1999 1 attending these schools. 2 Regional breakdowns. Talking about 3 Region I. This would be the panhandle area 4 from approximately Madison County to the west, 5 all the way to Pensacola. 6 Here there are 11 schools in this area of 7 the state. Regionally in this area, there have 8 been an outpouring of help and rallying of 9 community support for the schools, particularly 10 in the forms of mentors and tutors, and in 11 funding. 12 The in-kind contributions particularly in 13 the two second year schools -- and I think you 14 are familiar with both Spencer Bibbs and 15 AA Dixon Elementary from Escambia County. You 16 have talked with their district staff before. 17 The University of West Florida has adopted 18 these two schools, and they've really worked 19 hard to work with the schools to move the 20 children forward. 21 Schools in this region are particularly 22 conducting parent involvement activities. As a 23 result, there is steady improvement on writing 24 pretests in these schools. 25 The pretest data that they're using based ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 145 December 14, 1999 1 upon their own testing that is similar to FCAT 2 is being utilized to target benchmarks in 3 student work. And they have gains evident in 4 both reading and writing programs. 5 On this screen, you'll see Spencer Bibbs 6 and both AA Dixon, just some samples of the 7 kinds of things they are continuing to do, and 8 have begun. And some of the results that they 9 are getting. They're looking at their children 10 individually, and they're seeing definite 11 student progress. 12 Again, the University of West Florida has 13 been helping them a great deal with mentoring. 14 And Washington Mutual, which is a -- a local 15 financial institution, has been pouring 16 resources, particularly into Bibbs, giving the 17 media center a facelift, and various other 18 activities. 19 Additionally in Region I, Chattahoochee 20 High School, which is in Gadsden County, has 21 been using a training and assistance model -- 22 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 23 MS. WILLETT: -- with Florida League of 24 Teachers. These are all members who have been 25 Florida Teachers of the Year, mentoring and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 146 December 14, 1999 1 training the teachers to work with the 2 students. And you'll see other activities 3 there. 4 Thought it was particularly interesting 5 that a local military base has adopted 6 Oakcrest Elementary in Escambia County. So I 7 have -- I have visions of very tall, very 8 uniform, very heavily medaled officers talking 9 with kindergartners. It's got to be a 10 wonderful thing. 11 Region II is the other side of the 12 panhandle, moving to the east coast. Here 13 there are ten schools: Duval, which has mostly 14 an urban flavor to the schools; Marion; and 15 Taylor Counties. 16 Formative assessments are those kinds of 17 assessments that occur on a regular basis 18 throughout the year, seeing where a student is 19 in particular relation to particular standards. 20 The District has supported these schools 21 with both fiscal and human resources, and there 22 is constant and ongoing staff development. 23 The school improvement plans in this area 24 are becoming very much like a small business -- 25 business development plan, and they're very ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 147 December 14, 1999 1 much actively using the -- the plans as a way 2 to improve. 3 Also they are using funds very creatively, 4 putting small pots of money together to get 5 large pots of money to make major impact and 6 difference. 7 Americorps has been particularly helpful in 8 Duval County working with the mentoring and 9 tutoring programs. They're finding a great 10 deal of success in that regard. 11 And the focus that they have put on the 12 Sunshine State Standards is laudable and 13 commendable. 14 In particular, North Shore Elementary in 15 Duval County is an example given to you on the 16 slide. And one of the -- of all the pieces 17 that are there, you may not understand the word 18 looping. 19 Looping is a technique whereby a student is 20 assigned to a class, and stays with that 21 teacher through one grade level, and 22 potentially the next; and then the teacher 23 recycles. But the children are with the same 24 teacher for multiple years. 25 And they're -- they're getting some fairly ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 148 December 14, 1999 1 comfortable reactions and responses and 2 results, saying that this is a good thing for 3 the students that they have working with them. 4 Region III would be the east central 5 Florida area, Lake, Orange, and 6 Volusia Counties. Again, you can see the -- 7 the number of schools that are there. 8 In this region, again, staff development is 9 particularly important, and you're seeing a lot 10 of it in the area of writing, looking at 11 raising student scores above 3. 12 There's a great deal of model teaching and 13 talking about classroom routines. And in one 14 particular district, the staff meets with the 15 principals in these schools on a monthly basis, 16 and looks at -- very carefully at what they are 17 doing. 18 So the District is mentoring the principals 19 who can then mentor the teachers. 20 You'll see on the next slide some examples 21 of the kinds of things that are occurring in 22 these schools, and these are schools in 23 Orange County. 24 Region IV is the other side of the middle 25 of the state, moving to the west coast of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 149 December 14, 1999 1 Florida: Collier, Hendry, Lee, and Polk. This 2 extends all the way down. 3 Lee County in particular has put resource 4 teachers, particularly in specialized 5 discipline areas for students working with both 6 students and the teachers. 7 Blake Elementary School in Polk County is 8 in-servicing parents to help them understand 9 the kinds of requirements that are needed for 10 students to master Sunshine State Standards; 11 and, therefore, be successful on the Florida 12 Comprehensive Assessment Test. 13 And they're getting a great deal of parent 14 involvement as a result of that. 15 Also in Region IV I think is where we've 16 seen the most staffing changes. Four out of 17 the six F schools have new principals this 18 year, or have new principals within the last 19 two years. 20 And, again, District staff meeting very 21 intensely with the teachers, and with the 22 principals. And they have in Lee County what 23 they call an Achievement Coaching Team that 24 works with the -- with the schools. 25 This slide will again show you some of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 150 December 14, 1999 1 school level examples of the kinds of 2 activities that are occurring. 3 Auburndale Central Elementary has student 4 teachers at the neighborhood Episcopal Church, 5 and they're working on targeting 45 children to 6 help them write a 3.5 Florida Writes paragraph. 7 They -- they're not satisfied with 3.0, they 8 want to be above the average. 9 Those kinds of activities are occurring 10 across the state in these schools. 11 Region V is by far the most population 12 dense, and, therefore, has the most number of 13 schools. Broward, Dade, and Palm Beach are the 14 three districts in Region V which is, again, 15 the south part of the state. 16 Here there are additional monetary 17 resources available to them sometimes, and 18 Annenberg Foundation is one of those. 19 Annenberg and Title VI monies, which is a 20 Federal fund-- a federally funded staff 21 development program, has been put together with 22 some local match to assist the schools in the 23 Palm Beach areas particularly. 24 Miami-Dade has redirected a great deal of 25 its own Federal funding available to it, to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 151 December 14, 1999 1 work on lowering class size even further than 2 we've asked them to do in grades 1, 2, and 3. 3 Miami-Dade has also focused on the 4 principals as leaders, and worked a great deal 5 on redirecting District staff has -- as had 6 Broward and Palm Beach. Both of them have very 7 active District assistance teams for the 8 schools. 9 And on the next slide, you'll see some of 10 the school specific kinds of things that are 11 working for the schools in Region V. 12 And finally, on the last slide, three 13 particular schools. All of these are in -- all 14 these are in Dade. 15 Charles Drew Middle in particular has an 16 integrated curriculum. Middle schools, we 17 oftentimes think of them teaching the subjects 18 in isolation or separate from one another. 19 They're trying a different approach, putting 20 several subjects together, give students a very 21 wholistic view of -- of what education is all 22 about. 23 Miami Edison Senior has writing coaches, 24 which is something they've never had before; 25 broken up a very large school, into a school ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 152 December 14, 1999 1 within a school and academies, to more 2 personally address the needs of the students 3 there. 4 Overall, on a statewide level, you're 5 seeing a great deal of change, a great deal of 6 resources aligned and focused on 78 schools, as 7 well as the 613 schools that are also on your 8 map. 9 If you have any questions, I'd be glad to 10 answer them for you. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Nope? 12 We thank you very much. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just one 15 question, Governor. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: General Butterworth? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes. 18 This is -- I was impressed with the number 19 of -- I was impressed with a number of the -- 20 the charts here. 21 You weren't dealing with Escambia, AA Dixon 22 where it says your writing pretests have 23 improved from 20 percent to 60 percent. That's 24 pretty good. 25 MS. WILLETT: Yes, sir, it is. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 153 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Have we gone 2 to the outside and test the 50 students who 3 have -- who have gone into the -- into publ-- 4 into private schools to see how they would 5 compare to where -- it may very well be that 6 the students that stayed at AA Dixon, with all 7 the assistance that the Escambia District 8 provided for it, that the students -- and a 9 longer school year, and having the principal 10 run the school, that the students may be better 11 off, those who stayed, than the students who 12 left. 13 Is there -- is there a way of determining 14 that for our next presentation possibly? 15 MS. WILLETT: I don't have that information 16 for you available at this time. But we can 17 certainly work with the school -- the private 18 schools and see if we can get that for you. 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Even 20 students who went to other public schools, 21 I think there were a few that also did that, to 22 see what the effect would be. Maybe some just 23 regular migration what -- with students. 24 I know it'd be difficult to do. But it -- 25 I think that right there would be very ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 154 December 14, 1999 1 impressive if -- and shows that it can be done. 2 MS. WILLETT: Sure. 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: General, I 4 personally believe that -- and I've said this 5 as I speak across the state -- that if I had a 6 child that needed remediation, Bibbs or Dixon 7 would be where I'd want them to be because they 8 truly have geared in on remediation for 9 students and to get them up to grade level. 10 If I had a child that was probably at grade 11 level, I would be extremely tempted to move 12 them to a C school or better, or to a private 13 school. 14 So I would probably agree with your 15 guesstimate that students in those two schools, 16 with all the additional assets that have been 17 put down, are -- are making a lot of 18 differences. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Also I think that there 20 is -- although you -- I don't think we'll be 21 able to get the data in the immediate future. 22 But over this first year, there will be 23 research done that will answer your question 24 since, as you recall, the 56 children that go 25 to the private schools, and the -- whatever it ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 155 December 14, 1999 1 is, 75 or 80 children that go to the public 2 schools, will also be taking -- at least the 3 fourth graders, will be taking the FCAT test. 4 And as we move to the full implementation 5 of the plan, grades 3 through 10 will be taking 6 the tests that we will be able to measure that 7 and -- and measure student achievement over a 8 period of time. 9 And I know that Superintendent May is here. 10 And in the past, he has -- and -- and the 11 principals have been here, and they have spoken 12 with a lot of passion about how those schools 13 have shown improvement. 14 And we've encouraged them and -- and -- and 15 believe that they're right. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But also the 17 school teacher -- 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: And the -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- also the 20 teachers also, Governor, I think have -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- gone way 23 out over and above at those two schools. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely. And they've 25 been getting a lot more money, which ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 156 December 14, 1999 1 Commissioner Nelson and Superintendent May in a 2 conversation about a month ago that the Cabinet 3 pointed out for us, which we were happy to get 4 the specifics on. 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you very 6 much. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 157 December 14, 1999 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 1 through 156 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 27TH day of DECEMBER, 1999. 18 19 20 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR 100 Salem Court 21 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. T H E C A B I N E T S T A T E O F F L O R I D A Representing: REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION VOLUME II Pages 158 through 341 The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, December 14, 1999, commencing at approximately 9:17 a.m. Reported by: LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter Registered Merit Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 159 APPEARANCES: Representing the Florida Cabinet: JEB BUSH Governor BOB CRAWFORD Commissioner of Agriculture BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General BILL NELSON Treasurer TOM GALLAGHER Commissioner of Education * * * ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 160 December 14, 1999 I N D E X ITEM ACTION PAGE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson, Deputy Commissioner) 4 Continued 161 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 341 * * * ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 161 December 14, 1999 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. PIERSON: Item 4 is an amendment to 3 Rule 6A-1.09981, implementation of Florida's 4 System of School Improvement and 5 Accountability. 6 Prior to starting the presentation, we'd 7 like to advise you that the information was 8 provided to Cabinet Aides at the last 9 Cabinet Aides meetings, which was Workshop 10 Planning and Notification Information; the 11 press packet that was available at each 12 workshop; sign-in sheets, speaker cards and 13 materials from each of the regional -- the five 14 regional workshops; the public input that was 15 sent to DOE; and the tapes of the workshops. 16 Prior to the Department's presentation, we 17 have -- like to have some comments from 18 Senator Phil Lewis. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Senator Lewis has 20 asked to speak. He has an airplane to catch. 21 And so prior to our presenting the 22 amendments to the rule, if we could, I'd like 23 Senator Lewis, who is a member of PEPC, was a 24 member of the Accountability Commission, and is 25 a member of the State Board of Regents, among ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 162 December 14, 1999 1 other -- 2 SENATOR LEWIS: What he's telling you is 3 I'm a big has-been. 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Very involved in 5 education, even as a Senator and a President of 6 the -- 7 SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you -- 8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- Senate. 9 SENATOR LEWIS: -- Commissioner, Governor, 10 and members of the Board of Education and the 11 Cabinet. 12 It's a pleasure to be here, and I wish you 13 all a very happy holiday season on this very 14 important subject. 15 You are in your -- last of your millennium, 16 and I urge you to pass this rule. 17 I think it is very important -- I've been 18 around now 30 years, and probably -- maybe 19 longer. And every time we go to increase rules 20 on education in -- increase the standards, here 21 come the complainers. And some of them are 22 very well meaning, well intentioned. 23 But there's no rule ever been passed that 24 doesn't -- can't be amended, can't be changed. 25 So I urge you to pass this -- I don't urge ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 163 December 14, 1999 1 you -- I beg you to pass this rule in this 2 millennium, not next. 3 When the Jack Critchfield Governor's 4 Commission, the first day we were -- met, they 5 adopted a sort of a mantra. It said don't 6 flinch. And I urge you not to flinch. 7 This is a tough subject, and one that I 8 can't believe we even have any complaints, even 9 though we always can have them. I don't 10 question anybody's sincerity, but I can tell 11 you going back to the functional literacy test 12 when we had the Debra P., or whatever it was in 13 Turlington, the CLAST test, I was on that 14 commission, and we made six months of work, and 15 then somebody came up and stopped that; the 16 Accountability Commission, we had complaints 17 stem from day 1, and we went ahead and passed a 18 lot of the stuff that you're talking about in 19 his rule. 20 I can't tell you how -- and there's just 21 not going to be any perfect rule. I urge you 22 to pass this thing. And we'll have some 23 complaints about it. And you'll not -- by the 24 way, you ain't going to stop meeting in 198-- 25 or 2000, are you? You can come back. But pass ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 164 December 14, 1999 1 this this time for the kids. 2 And I want to tell you a little story. We 3 went -- the Account-- the last -- one of the 4 last meetings we had with the 5 Accountability Commission, we went up to 6 Havana High School I guess it is -- it's called 7 up in -- it's a predominantly black school. 8 We get in there, and the teacher said, what 9 are you all doing here? 10 And this is imprinted on me. 11 Commissioner Gallagher knows what I'm about 12 to say. 13 And she -- we told her why we were there. 14 And she said, well, you're wasting your time 15 here. 16 She said, by the time the kids get here, 17 they're in deep trouble, because they haven't 18 learned even the basics. 19 You need to go down into the K-- way down 20 in the lower grades, because they're just not 21 learning. 22 And she said, the first thing you ought to 23 do is stop social promotion. That was from 24 that teacher. And that just sort of imprinted 25 here. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 165 December 14, 1999 1 And then Commissioner Gallagher invited me 2 to go up in a carload of people he had to 3 Gadsden County. I think I was the outlaw in 4 the whole crowd. There were about 30 of us. 5 And I saw those beautiful children, and I 6 thought of what that woman said. We're passing 7 them. 8 They're heading for two places: Welfare 9 role or the prison system. And I urge you -- 10 this may not be the last thing, but pass it. 11 Thank you. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Phil. 13 Happy holidays to you. 14 MR. PIERSON: For the Department, 15 presenting the rule will be Betty Coxe, the 16 Director of Public Schools. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon, Betty. 18 MS. COXE: Good afternoon, Governor, 19 members of the Cabinet. 20 I wasn't nervous enough, Commissioner? I 21 got to follow Senator Lewis. 22 Appreciate that. 23 It's a pleasure to be with you today and to 24 have the opportunity on behalf of the 25 Commissioner to present to you the Department's ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 166 December 14, 1999 1 amendment to the rule. 2 And I must say up front, this is a 3 complicated matter. The rule was 26 pages long 4 when we advertised it, and yesterday it was 5 necessary to put forward several amendments in 6 compliance with a ruling by the 7 Joint Administrative Procedures Committee. 8 So I'm going to do the best I can this 9 afternoon to explain the language that you have 10 before you without getting all wrapped up into 11 rules and regs, but rather from a perspective 12 of here's what we are presenting, and here is 13 the rationale that got us to this point. 14 First of all, as has been stated repeatedly 15 today, Florida can be very proud of the fact 16 that it has a standards based accountability 17 system. But what does that mean? 18 That means that a team of professionals has 19 come together and decided exactly what it is 20 that children should know and be able to do in 21 various grades in Florida, and that we hold all 22 children to that same standard. 23 That is really an important concept. As 24 you look at accountability, we have to 25 constantly say to ourselves, do we know what ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 167 December 14, 1999 1 the expectation is? And now that we have 2 clearly done that, through the work, of course, 3 of this prestigious body in adopting the 4 Sunshine State Standards in 1997, we can be 5 clear to people. 6 Now, my husband and I have four kids, and 7 we wish we had had the standards when our kids 8 were going through school. Maybe you do, too. 9 Because it clarifies for us what it is children 10 should know in various grade levels. 11 But it isn't enough to say simply, this is 12 what the expectation is. The State has a 13 compelling interest in finding out who meets 14 those standards. And the way that we do that 15 is through assessment. 16 Florida has a Florida Comprehensive 17 Assessment Test. We've had it for a very short 18 amount of time. But as we go further into this 19 presentation, we will develop for you the link 20 of that test to the standards. And that's the 21 crucial piece. 22 We've said what it is we need kids to 23 learn; we have a system by which we measure 24 whether they've learned it or not; and, 25 finally, we have an obligation to report ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 168 December 14, 1999 1 those -- the success. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: When was the -- excuse me, 3 Betty. 4 When was the test tied to the standards, 5 when was that approved by the Board of 6 Education? 7 MS. COXE: I believe in 1998. Yes, sir. 8 So it's a relatively new policy. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: But it -- I just want to 10 put it in the historical perspective. There 11 was a different Governor -- 12 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- different Cabinet -- 14 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and a commitment across 16 the board with lots of input by teachers, 17 principals, committed people to education to 18 create the standards and to create the 19 assessment that we would measure how children 20 are doing to those standards. 21 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 22 It's my understanding that the Department's 23 original recommendation to the -- to the 24 Cabinet, which came about through, as you know, 25 Governor, meetings with literally hundreds of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 169 December 14, 1999 1 interested people, teachers, administrators. 2 The Department's original recommendation 3 turned out to be one that was even higher than 4 what the Board of Education indicated at the 5 time that it was comfortable doing. 6 So they created instead a phase-in system 7 for the standards in the hope that it would 8 give people more time to reach the mark. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 10 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 11 The -- the FCAT basically tests, of course, 12 the performance of -- of each child one by one. 13 But kids go to school in groups, and those 14 groups are found in -- in schools, and there 15 has to be some way of compiling the results of 16 the testing for school determinations of how 17 well are our schools doing. 18 Now, it's important that we do that. We 19 have to know how the kids in schools are doing, 20 because we have to quantify school success. 21 We need to quantify that success for a 22 number of reasons, not the least of which is, 23 when you set a standard, you figure out who's 24 meeting it; you need to know who's meeting it 25 well beyond the -- the minimum expectation; and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 170 December 14, 1999 1 it's good public policy to reward those 2 schools, to let people know that their success 3 is recognized. 4 And it's also important to note those 5 schools that make dramatic improvement for 6 children, because it is harder in some schools 7 than in others to get kids up to the mark. And 8 those that -- that make strong gains in that 9 regard, they need to be rewarded. 10 And regrettably, you have some situations 11 where the kids aren't learning to the degree 12 that you would like. And in those 13 circumstances, we need to make sure we provide 14 the kind of assistance that makes children do 15 better. 16 But probably most important from a 17 comprehensive viewpoint is this: We are in a 18 constant state of continuous improvement, all 19 of us, as individuals, as schools. No matter 20 where you are, you can get better. 21 My dad used to say, strive for perfection, 22 settle for excellence. That's the way we are 23 looking at all schools. And you need a 24 measurement system to do that, to help people 25 determine the level of their success. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 171 December 14, 1999 1 I would be lying if I told you that what 2 you have before you today is a simple, perfect, 3 all encompassing process for doing what we need 4 to do in grading the schools. 5 But we know it is a good start at 6 implementing the A+ bill as was last passed, 7 and that it carries the State forward on its 8 mission of -- of holding schools accountable, 9 and providing the best kind of education for 10 all children in the state. 11 According to the law that was passed in 12 last session, schools in Florida are to receive 13 grades, and those grades are A to F. And that 14 was done out of a spirit of public truthfulness 15 I guess you'd say. 16 As y'all know, schools have been rated for 17 a long time on a tier level. And we switched 18 from level 1 to 5 to A through F for a more 19 honest presentation to the public of how 20 schools were doing. 21 And further in the law, it states that the 22 centerpiece really for accountability has to be 23 student achievement, and that the -- the one 24 thing, since that's the primary mission of 25 school is to educate kids, the primary thing ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 172 December 14, 1999 1 upon which children -- schools must be held 2 accountable is the achievement results. 3 The law went on to say, it shouldn't be the 4 only thing. And there was a listing of other 5 factors to be considered in the grading of 6 schools. Those other factors you see on the 7 screen. 8 Now, some people will tell you that this 9 was not the Department's original position that 10 you see in the rule now, and that is true. So 11 I'd like to take a second to explain that. 12 If we hold with the premise that the most 13 important things that schools do are to teach 14 children to read, to write, to cipher, as they 15 used to say, then you -- you would have to say 16 that that needs to be the primary focus. 17 But there are other things about schools 18 that are important. And under the one year 19 that we graded schools, we decided to use these 20 other factors to distinguish between an A 21 school and a non-A school. And that was the 22 rule as it was publicized last week. 23 But JAPC found that the law did not allow 24 for that degree of flexibility, and, in fact, 25 that the other factors were to be considered in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 173 December 14, 1999 1 all passing grades of D through A. 2 So the amendment to the amendment that you 3 have received from Commissioner Gallagher does 4 do that. We believe we've done it in a way 5 that gives -- here's a very nonstatistical 6 term -- a bit of wiggle room for schools so 7 that it doesn't hold them inappropriately 8 accountable in these areas, but it does give 9 them a standard, and an expectation. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- can I -- just 11 another historical perspective here. 12 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: I remember in transition 14 after the election, I came to 15 Commissioner Brogan, now Lieutenant Governor 16 Brogan's last Cabinet meeting where the school 17 recognition program was -- the rules were 18 passed. 19 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: And in those rules, as I 21 recall, which unanimously passed the -- the 22 Cabinet, there was an inclusion of school 23 discipline and attendance in those rules; were 24 there not? 25 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 174 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: And as I recall, I was told 2 this -- I didn't know this at the time -- the 3 reason why they were included, because they 4 weren't included to begin with, was a similar 5 kind of process of what we've gone through over 6 the last four or five months, to seek public 7 input that educators across the state wanted to 8 include school discipline and attendance as 9 part of that. 10 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. That is all true. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: And so when the bill was 12 passed, attempting to be true to the existing 13 school recognition program so that we could 14 have a smooth transition in our grading 15 program, that those things were included in the 16 passage of the law. 17 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Thank you. 19 MS. COXE: That is -- everything you have 20 said is accurate. And we would never maintain 21 at the Department that any accountability 22 system should be one dimensional. 23 We just believe that in terms of 24 translation of most important, you have to keep 25 your eye on the prize. And let's make no ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 175 December 14, 1999 1 mistake, the prize is reading, writing, math, 2 and other content areas. 3 If children are allowed to exit our school 4 system incapable of being productive citizens 5 because they don't know content, we have made a 6 tremendous mistake in their education. A -- a 7 horrific one. 8 Now, these attendance factors and other 9 considerations you see there are important. 10 Obviously kids can't learn if they're not in 11 school, if they quit school, if they go to 12 school in a situation that there's chronic 13 chaos. 14 So you do want schools that are organized 15 to promote strong attendance; a feeling of 16 children staying there; of -- of good, sound 17 discipline. Kids need to do all of these 18 things. 19 So the new rule does reflect those, and 20 does have a -- a vehicle by which schools 21 are -- are held accountable to a certain 22 standard in that regard. 23 But the rule as amended in your proposal 24 this -- is basically concentrating on 25 achievement, and for very good reasons. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 176 December 14, 1999 1 I'd like to take a second to talk about 2 that assessment of student achievement. If we 3 roll the tape back to the Sunshine State 4 Standards, then the most important thing that 5 we can do as a State is figure out which of our 6 children have met the -- the requirements of 7 the standard. 8 And historically we have done that by 9 having children take our achievement test, and 10 issuing a report of that child's success. And 11 that report is a one-time status measure. 12 You get a report as a parent, says little 13 Junior took the test, here was his score in 14 reading, writing, math. 15 And that's a very good -- good system. I 16 don't think we need to apologize for that 17 system. It's important for families to know 18 where their kids are in terms of proficiency. 19 But the new law asks us to go a step 20 further, now that we have better systems for 21 measurement. It has asked us to develop a 22 system of annual learning gains, which 23 basically says this: Not just what did Junior 24 do in terms of demonstration of proficiency, 25 how much did he learn in the past year, which ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 177 December 14, 1999 1 is what we call annual learning gains. 2 What was the growth, what was the bang for 3 our buck in education over the past year for 4 the investment made? 5 And the big change in annual learning gains 6 is that it tracks the success of the same 7 student over time. So you get that picture. 8 I think of it sort of like my family 9 photograph at home with the kids at every 10 Christmas. One thing you do, you look at the 11 picture, and you see that your children have 12 changed. But annual learning gains let you 13 quantify how much they've changed: They're 14 6 inches taller, they -- they can tie their -- 15 they're wearing a tie now, whatever it is. 16 It's a different system of looking. 17 But the annual learning gains model will 18 give you both pieces of information. I think 19 that's important. Doesn't eliminate the one, 20 it tells you about the gains. And this is 21 going to be important, particularly for kids 22 who struggle. 23 If you've got a fifth grader who came to 24 school starting at second grade, and he is 25 tested again, and is now at fourth grade after ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 178 December 14, 1999 1 one year of instruction, that child is still in 2 the fifth grade, functioning at fourth, but has 3 gained two years. And that's a crucial piece 4 of information. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: The -- the rule does not 6 address this, as I understand it, because we -- 7 the law was changed to allow for grading of 8 students, instead of four, eight, and ten, now 9 we are four -- three through ten. 10 MS. COXE: Right. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: And in doing so, we'll be 12 able to measure those annual learning gains. 13 And the law -- 14 MS. COXE: That's right. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that was passed that -- 16 that I -- that we advocated -- some of us at 17 least here -- 18 MS. COXE: Right. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- had from the very 20 beginning included that as an element of the 21 ultimate grading system, which we can't -- 22 MS. COXE: That is right. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we can't get to quite 24 yet, can we? 25 MS. COXE: No, sir. And that will come up ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 179 December 14, 1999 1 later. It will take us a couple of years. We 2 are starting right now, and you'll see that in 3 an upcoming slide, that in order to do what 4 you're talking about, we do have to expand the 5 FCAT. 6 Students have to, of course, be assessed. 7 And -- and in -- in accountability, the 8 grouping of those scores from kids has to be 9 packaged to make decisions about schools, how 10 have schools done. 11 And in the rule language that you have, 12 there is some talk about the reporting of 13 student achievement. And these are important 14 things, because these are the factors upon 15 which judgments are made about school 16 performance. 17 First of all, in the proposed language, you 18 see the FCAT performance criteria for schools 19 to be rated grades A through F. 20 And those, of course, are different, 21 depending on the subject area being tested, and 22 some other factors. 23 Now, because your decisions are important 24 when assigning a grade to a school, the 25 Commissioner has to be assured that enough ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 180 December 14, 1999 1 students have been tested to give him an 2 accurate picture of the learning. 3 And this language proposes that 90 percent 4 of students who are eligible for testing have 5 their grades counted for school purposes, 6 95 percent for an A. 7 And I'd like to stop here a second, because 8 this gets real confusing to people, and -- and 9 we can understand why. 10 All kids are tested. I mean, there is 11 provision under Federal law that disabled 12 children are tested. They're not necessarily 13 tested on FCAT, but they have to be tested for 14 accountability purposes. 15 Then the question becomes: Whose scores 16 should count. And that gets a little trickier, 17 because there are kids in certain situations 18 where you wouldn't want their FCAT scores 19 necessarily to count for grading purposes. 20 An example might be a child who is new to 21 Florida, doesn't speak English, has only been 22 in our program for a year. You want to test 23 him to see where he is and how he's doing, but 24 you don't want to really hold the school 25 accountable yet. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 181 December 14, 1999 1 So there is a certain represent-- 2 representativeness about this. When you remove 3 certain disabled children, certain LEP 4 students, and whatnot from the mix of counting 5 for school grading of the kids that you have 6 left, 90 percent need to be there for testing. 7 And that's what's in the rule. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, 10 this is very confusing, as you say. 11 MS. COXE: It is. Very. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So what 13 you're -- so what you're telling me, that a 14 student who is IQ challenged, they'll take the 15 test, but -- but that it may not count if -- 16 if, let's say, they have -- 17 MS. COXE: Right. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- a 70 IQ. 19 So they're -- 20 MS. COXE: They have an IQ of what? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Of 70 -- 22 MS. COXE: Okay. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- let's 24 say. So -- so that child take -- will take the 25 test, but that test will not count against the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 182 December 14, 1999 1 school. 2 MS. COXE: That is correct. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. Now, 4 a child who starts in school this year, 5 let's say, in the fourth grade, must stay in 6 the school the whole year, or for six or 7 eight months before that child is tested. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're getting to that. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Oh. 10 MS. COXE: Yes. 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Again, I'm 12 ah-- 13 MS. COXE: To have their's -- I need to 14 address that ESE question because, of course, 15 everybody knows that ESE children, exceptional 16 students, are always judged on an individual 17 basis, as Federal law would require. So your 18 70 IQ I answered in general. 19 But children involved in emotionally 20 handicapped programs are somehow viewed to -- 21 to have a disability that pronounced, in 22 general, their grades will not count. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, many 24 times, as you know, the IQ challenged child 25 could be -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 183 December 14, 1999 1 MS. COXE: Yes. 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- your 3 hardest working -- 4 MS. COXE: Absolutely. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- child in 6 your classroom. And -- 7 MS. COXE: That's right. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: And the Federal law, as -- 9 as we -- we know, because the State is obliged 10 to pay for the portion of the money that they 11 were supposed to put up to take care of these 12 precious children, Federal law is quite 13 stringent upon creating individual achievement 14 plans that would be a mini accountability 15 system for each child that is uniquely given to 16 them, as it should be. And so -- 17 MS. COXE: Uh-hum. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- they are not included in 19 this grading system. 20 MS. COXE: And that was, frankly, a point 21 statewide that was misrepresented over and 22 over, the ESE kids. 23 Well, the -- the way the language and the 24 rule reads, ESE kids are not automatically 25 included nor excluded since decisions are made ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 184 December 14, 1999 1 on the individual basis. 2 Obviously, if you're gifted, you're 3 included. I mean, there are certain 4 categories. 5 But by in large, these are decisions that 6 have to first be driven at the individual 7 level, and then transformed to the school. The 8 language in the rule says students in a 9 standard curriculum course of study will have 10 their scores counted. 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But many 12 times, the low IQ child will be in a standard 13 curriculum. 14 MS. COXE: But modified for the IQ. And 15 once you get that modification in, then their 16 scores would not be counted. 17 Finally, two more quick points. 18 Statistically, you have to have enough kids 19 in a grade to be fair. And the determination 20 from the researchers has been we need 30. If 21 you only have five, that's too much weight 22 going on one child's movement. 23 And something you just mentioned, General, 24 on stability factor. 25 Yes, this was a major issue in the state. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 185 December 14, 1999 1 Schools want to be accountable for learning, 2 but they want to be accountable for the 3 learning of kids that they've had the 4 opportunity to teach. 5 So in the rule, the Commissioner has 6 recommended that we hold schools responsible 7 for kids who are there for both the October and 8 February reporting periods. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, just 10 one question on this. 11 A number of teachers and administrators 12 told me that they think you'd be fairer if that 13 child was there the year before. But you have 14 a child just coming in, so you only had the 15 person for a few months. I know you have to 16 draw the line somewhere. 17 MS. COXE: Yes, sir. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But from the 19 standpoint of really being able to evaluate a 20 school, if that child was there for a longer 21 period of time -- I wasn't -- let's take 22 Orange County, who I believe the mobility 23 factor in the F school is over 55 percent. 24 How does that work? I mean, you may not 25 end up at some of these -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 186 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- schools 3 with -- with 30. 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: There's a reason 5 that says stability instead of mobility. And 6 if I can, I'd like to address that. 7 You can have a mobility factor of 8 60 percent. One would think that that meant 9 that if there were 1,000 children in the school 10 in the beginning of the year, and there were 11 1,000 children in the school at the end of the 12 year, that 600 of them would be different. 13 That is not true. 14 What we find when we do runs is that -- and 15 looking on a stability side, is even though you 16 may have a 60 percent mobility factor, that 17 factor can be driven by a group of students 18 that come and go. And maybe they only have a 19 20 or 30 percent -- should I say changes. 20 And yet at the end of the school year, you 21 end up with 800 of the same students, only 22 200 are different. 23 So we believe that it's more accurate and 24 fair to look at the stability side, as opposed 25 to a mobility side. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 187 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, 2 then -- then just follow-up then. If a child 3 leaves for a few months -- let's say, he leaves 4 from November to February, is that child 5 counted or not -- 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- because 8 he's there in October, and he's there in -- the 9 second time you test. 10 What happens to those children? 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That -- that 12 child, if he was in the -- if -- if the school 13 system counted him in October, and they counted 14 him in February, I don't know where he was in 15 between. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But at 17 the -- 18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If he was -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- school -- 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- if he was ill, 21 if there were -- if there were extenuating 22 circumstances that would put him on a 23 critically ill, there is an existing rule and 24 law that -- that takes care of those children 25 and exempts them from being counted. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 188 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah. 2 But -- but from the standpoint -- let's say he 3 goes from one school to another in the same 4 system, or a different system, then goes back 5 into that same public school, but the child was 6 only there maybe two days, the two important 7 dates, how is that one going to be counted? 8 I mean, it -- it's just things like that 9 which -- 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I'm sure, 11 as -- as Mrs. Coxe started out with, there -- 12 there is no perfect grading system. And I can 13 guarantee you that we could sit up here and 14 come up with individual circumstances like that 15 that would sound like the whole system isn't 16 any good because of that. 17 But the truth of the matter is, there are 18 very, very few students that that would happen 19 with. And so you can't fix every single little 20 thing. And that -- that would be my answer to 21 that question. 22 And, again, it -- it would be -- it is one 23 student or two students. That's why we have a 24 minimum of 30, so that those kinds of 25 aberrations would not affect the school. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 189 December 14, 1999 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So a -- a 2 school can actually challenge maybe some -- 3 they can actually, I guess, go to you and 4 challenge certain -- certain students' grades 5 because they might not have been responsible 6 for teaching that child that particular year. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We allowed -- last 8 year we had a number of incompletes because 9 they were less than 80 percent tested. We now 10 have in the rule 90, so everybody knows in the 11 front end that 90 has to happen, or you can 12 lose a grade. 13 We also allowed a 30-day period which 14 schools could give us data and appeal the grade 15 that they got based on any circumstance they 16 wanted to bring to us, which could include that 17 kind of a circumstance. 18 And we had a committee within the 19 Department that looked at each one of those 20 appeals, and made decisions based on what they 21 thought was the right thing to do. 22 And so that -- that is therestill there to 23 allow extenuating circumstances to be looked at 24 so a grade could be changed based on unusual 25 situations. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 190 December 14, 1999 1 I'm not saying that we'd do it because of 2 one student like that. But if there -- 3 you know, if the school closed down for 4 three months, and none of them were there, that 5 might be a problem. I don't know. 6 But there could be extenuating 7 circumstances. 8 MS. COXE: In order to go forward with the 9 accountability process, we have to expand FCAT, 10 as the Governor indicated. 11 FCAT has currently been given in grades 4, 12 5, 8, and 10. And for accountability purposes, 13 that will be true this year as well. 14 However, additionally this year, we are 15 adding the field test level to fully implement. 16 And that -- that will take place for grades 3 17 through 10 in every area we haven't tested so 18 far. 19 Now, the field test is -- is a situation 20 where every kid in Florida will take those 21 tests, but they will not be taking the same 22 test items. 23 The purpose for field testing is test 24 development. So the Department and the company 25 will get together and look at the -- the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 191 December 14, 1999 1 results of the field test, they will determine 2 which items appear to be appropriate, which are 3 off kilter, and from that experience will 4 develop the first test for next year. 5 In the year 2000-2001, all students in 6 Florida will be taking grades 3 through 10 as 7 identified in law, reading and math, FCAT, for 8 a baseline year. 9 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 10 MS. COXE: And then finally, the subsequent 11 year is when we'll have the growth available to 12 make those very important decisions about how 13 much learning took place in a year's time. 14 Other parts of this rule talk about rewards 15 and recognition. This is an important 16 principle for people once you've said the 17 standard and you want to recognize those who 18 exceed it. 19 You see in the rule the criteria -- or 20 excuse me -- not the criteria, but the 21 authority for the Commissioner to grant 22 financial awards to A schools, and schools that 23 improve one grade, or schools that make 24 dramatic gains. 25 And we need to stop there a second about ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 192 December 14, 1999 1 that part, because that's for F schools. 2 Now, most of us in the Department, 3 including me, are old teachers at -- at heart 4 and taught for many years, and are used to the 5 system of -- of A to F. 6 And as y'all will know, there's a huge 7 range in an F, typically zero to 69. That's a 8 giant range of numbers. 9 So if you make dramatic gains, you can well 10 make more gains in that zero to 69, than you 11 made from the whole system of D to A. 12 So there does seem to be an appropriate 13 rationale for recognizing schools that make 14 dramatic gains in reading and mathematics, but 15 don't get from F to D. 16 And you -- you know already -- I know y'all 17 do -- that we have 78 F schools this year, so 18 there are a large number. And many of them 19 well may make dramatic gains, but not get clear 20 to the D in one year. 21 So the Commissioner definitely wanted a 22 vehicle by which to recognize that success. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: General Butterworth. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Let me ask 25 you one question on this. Because this is -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 193 December 14, 1999 1 this is an important issue, because let's say 2 we see what's happening with the two schools 3 in -- in Escambia, and the other 78 that are -- 4 that are F schools. 5 Let's say you have a school that's doing -- 6 let's say, you say with your zero to 69, 7 let's say it's at a 2. And they bring it up to 8 66. 9 To give that school a double F would be so 10 demoralizing to the teachers, the 11 administrators, the system, this -- the kids, 12 is there a way -- is there -- is there some 13 type of safety valve here to where, if the 14 Commissioner believes or the committee believes 15 that a school has made such great progress, it 16 would be just fundamentally unfair to give that 17 school the second F, and, therefore, they will 18 not fall within that -- the two Fs within a 19 four-year period. 20 That way I think you'd -- you'd have the 21 incentive out there, even for the school that's 22 way down low, to bring the students up to a 23 much higher level. 24 MS. COXE: General, I wish it were that 25 easy. But, you know, any time you have a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 194 December 14, 1999 1 number, you have to get here, there are always 2 those who are one little bit below it; and one, 3 of course, little bit above it. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Let's say 50 5 then to -- from 2 to 50, which is still 6 20 points below. I mean, I'm -- I'm saying 7 that -- 8 MS. COXE: Two to three. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- is there 10 someone out there that could put fairness into 11 something that, when people work so hard, and a 12 District does so much, and -- and a business 13 adopts a school, and children are feeling 14 wonderful about themself -- 15 MS. COXE: I know. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- for the 17 first time in their lives, school teachers are 18 feeling great, and to still say, I'm sorry, you 19 failed. 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, what -- 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yet you made 22 more progress than any other school in the 23 state of Florida. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Because you 25 have -- you have spoken what I -- I think is -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 195 December 14, 1999 1 is true, that we should have a method by which 2 we recognize those schools that have done such 3 a great job, even though their students have 4 not yet earned a D, that is why we added to 5 this rule recognition for that gain. 6 But we don't remove them from what grade 7 they are, because that would not be fair 8 either. And the lines are pretty well drawn, 9 and they were drawn back before I was on this 10 Cabinet as Commissioner of Education, on what 11 were -- the levels were going to be. 12 So that's why we say that if -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well -- 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- you have, 15 in fact, a substantial gain, we will recognize 16 those schools that are Fs with monetary 17 rewards, the same as we do ones that would gain 18 a grade, and the same as we do with the ones 19 that would be an A school. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Which is over and above the 21 amount of money that F schools, as the report 22 showed by the anecdotal stories of all the 23 different strategies being developed. What 24 wasn't stated was there's more money going to 25 the F schools already. So this would be in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 196 December 14, 1999 1 addition to that. 2 MS. COXE: Uh-hum. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, just again, I'd -- I 4 want to make sure, because I -- one of the 5 frustrating things about this very important 6 issue, and I know that there's disagreement -- 7 trust me, I know that there's disagreement 8 about this -- is the lack of understanding of 9 the historical development of our standards and 10 grading. 11 Perhaps you could describe what it is 12 that -- that designates -- I don't even know if 13 it was a 1 or a 5, because -- and that was the 14 problem with the old grading system, is 5 may 15 have been the lowest, or may have been the 16 highest. Very few people could tell you that. 17 But based on those standards and the 18 current standards, what -- what makes -- 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a school be designated 21 either a 1 or a 5, or whatever it was, or an F? 22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It is interesting 23 to note that this Board, prior to your being 24 Governor, and prior to me being Commissioner of 25 Education, basically voted the standards that ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 197 December 14, 1999 1 would be set for the grading system. 2 Now, at that time, the grading system was 3 in levels, Level 1 through Level 5. 4 Truly, the educators understood which was 5 the better one and which was the worst. It 6 started, and you'll see -- you'll visit schools 7 periodically, and they'll say, this is a 8 Level 1 school. Some people might think that's 9 an A, but the truth of the matter is, a Level 1 10 was an F; and a Level 5 was an A. 11 The same criteria that was used for Level 1 12 through Level 5 is the basis of the criteria 13 used now from A through F. 14 We have -- one of the things that was asked 15 for in our meetings as we went around the state 16 is stability in the grading system. And we 17 worked very hard to have stability in the 18 grading system. 19 These new rules that we're actually putting 20 in are implementing the A+ plan, but we are 21 doing that, which includes putting level -- 22 grades on, as opposed -- letters as opposed to 23 levels. 24 But the basic criteria for how you are at 25 what level is basically there from the rule ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 198 December 14, 1999 1 that was -- was set by this Board before you 2 and I got here, Governor. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: And what was it? 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And so -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sixty percent of reading, 6 math, and writing -- and writing. All three. 7 MS. COXE: Uh-hum. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sixty percent of the 9 students had to be below that level -- 10 MS. COXE: Right. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the minimum level, not 12 the median level -- 13 MS. COXE: Right. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- but the minimum level. 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's right. 16 It -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Put it in perspective. 18 I mean -- 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If 40 percent of 20 the students are not at the minimum level -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Say it once. 22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- expected, then 23 that school is rated an F. And that is a -- 24 that is a -- a -- a very low level. And, 25 in fact, when you look at a D, you're saying ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 199 December 14, 1999 1 all three of those subjects, except for one. 2 That's -- that's a pretty low standard, in 3 all honesty. And it's a concern that it's that 4 low. But the truth of the matter is, we have a 5 long way to go across this state, and we want 6 to have it -- gains shown, and -- and levels 7 that -- that I think we should consider an 8 absolute minimum, and that's what that is. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I 10 don't -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I don't 13 mean to prolong this. Maybe I'm not -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, this is important. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- maybe I'm 16 not making myself clear here. 17 I -- I don't mind that school getting 18 another F. That doesn't bother me, because 19 they have -- because they have not reached 20 the -- the D level yet. 21 What -- what bothers me is that if you 22 receive two Fs, you then go into a different 23 category to where then vouchers do check in, 24 and a lot of other things do check in. 25 So my question would be: If a school makes ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 200 December 14, 1999 1 such great progress, why provide them with the 2 double F negatives where they -- as they start 3 losing enrollment, they will then -- the 4 school board then loses the money. 5 Is there a way to still give them an F, but 6 not put them into the double F category, like a 7 Dixon right now, to where the vouchers check 8 in, everything else checks in, because I -- I'm 9 concerned about stability, too. 10 And I'm also -- I think everything that's 11 been done here has been tremendous of putting 12 education first, and -- and putting education 13 on the front pages of the papers. And the 14 teachers that are motivated -- and also in the 15 courtrooms. 16 -- the teachers are motivated, the 17 administrators are motivated, and -- and 18 just -- I think we'd be doing a terrible 19 disservice if there was just not some mechanism 20 for the Commissioner or a committee to 21 designate that particular school made so much 22 progress to put them in a double F category 23 would just be inappropriate -- 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I can -- 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- not fair. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 201 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- tell you that 2 the law is very clear that a school that 3 receives an F in any two out of four years, the 4 parents and students have the right to an 5 opportunity scholarship, which would allow them 6 to move to a C school or better; or to a 7 private school, if there was room for them. 8 And I don't think that we have the 9 authority to change that. That is -- that is 10 pretty much in law. 11 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But then we 13 can change it though in the rule that's before 14 us by may -- putting factors in. 15 And -- and this is one thing that concerns 16 me is that a lot of discussion has been on the 17 issue of could be on poverty, a neighborhood 18 feeding into schools, that something like that 19 should be maybe phased in, as opposed to where 20 it's now. 21 I mean, I -- I think every child can learn, 22 and there are many schools in this state that 23 are here that -- there are some schools that -- 24 that have Ds that only have 8 percent poverty. 25 So it goes both ways. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 202 December 14, 1999 1 But -- but the thing is, my concern is that 2 there has to be some fundamental fairness here 3 to where the teachers and the principals and 4 other administrators will not go into that 5 double F category if they've done so much good. 6 That's just -- it's fairness. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It really 9 is. And I think it even helps the court cases. 10 It's something there that -- that helps us in 11 that regard. That's -- 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: General, let me 13 just give you a little history, if I may. 14 This has been moved in in phases. Although 15 the opportunity scholarships is new, 16 recognizing that there were problems with low 17 performing schools is not. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: In 1995-96, 20 158 schools were designated as critically low 21 performing. In 1996-97, there was a 55 percent 22 reduction in those because of the stigma of 23 being a low performing school. 24 Seventy-one schools in 96-97. 25 In 97-98, there was another 59 percent ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 203 December 14, 1999 1 reduction, and we saw 30 schools designated as 2 low performing. 3 Now, in 1997-98, 51 percent of all schools 4 had no scores -- scores below the State 5 criteria. 6 In 98-99, four schools were designated as 7 school performance Level 1, or F. 8 So there was a tremendous gain made. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Now, I will tell 11 you that the standards were not high for low 12 performing. They were very low. 13 If we were honest, we probably would have 14 known there was five hundred and some schools 15 that should have been on that list, if you 16 really took to what we're talking about today. 17 In fact, probably more like seven or 18 eight hundred. 19 In 1998-99, this Board adopted a new 20 criteria, prior to me being here. 21 And in 99-2000, we designated schools by 22 letter grades, equal to low performing would be 23 the F. There are 78 schools so mentioned. 24 This year, I would expect, hopefully -- 25 I've -- truly hopefully expect, that we would ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 204 December 14, 1999 1 see a reduction in those critically performing 2 schools that are Fs, by -- I'm not going to 3 guess, but I would hope that we'll see a -- a 4 good improvement, because I know a lot of work 5 is happening in those schools. 6 That's why -- and knowing that some will -- 7 will improve a lot, but may not get to where 8 they need to be, that's why we wanted to reward 9 those ones that showed that tremendous 10 performance gain with cash awards to be used 11 for the school as the teachers and principals 12 and SACs want to -- want to do it. 13 But to basically say that because -- that 14 they should not -- that the parents shouldn't 15 have the opportunity to have the same choices 16 that so many other parents have that may not be 17 in the lower socioeconomic area I think would 18 go against what the -- what the law says. 19 MS. COXE: Okay. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 21 MS. COXE: The law also requires that we 22 address the issue of deregulation and budget 23 authority for those schools that do exemplary 24 jobs. And you'll see that mentioned. 25 We have to give assistance and intervention ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 205 December 14, 1999 1 for D and F schools, and we would want this. 2 There needs to be intensive efforts to get 3 everyone up to the standard. And if we don't 4 waiver from that, if we say everybody can get 5 there, given the right resources, then we will 6 get everybody where they need to go. 7 The law requires, and the rule supports a 8 two-year district plan for assistance; that the 9 Commissioner grant preference for State and 10 Federal grants in funding D and F schools; that 11 where necessary, school boards can declare 12 contractual emergencies to assist them in 13 providing a different delivery model of 14 instruction; and finally, you, sitting as 15 State Board, have the power to make differences 16 in these schools. 17 That is the rule in a very cursory fashion. 18 We would like to state that there are many 19 people going to come for you to-- before you 20 today, and they're going to say some really 21 good things about the rule, they're going to 22 say some things that they very much don't like. 23 We would like to let you know that the 24 primary responsibility is for us to develop for 25 you a rule that is statutorily compliant, and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 206 December 14, 1999 1 that speaks to the intent and the heart of the 2 law. And we believe that we have done that. 3 That doesn't mean we have developed for you 4 a rule that is flawless, or a rule that will be 5 universally accepted. We do think it is one 6 that serves the greater good, and puts the 7 focus on kids and their learning; that keeps 8 the attention on standards, which is what our 9 system has to have, stability on the standards, 10 with an underlying belief that all children can 11 reach them. 12 And finally, we've tried to give you today 13 a rule that reflects your wishes as leadership, 14 as they have been translated to us, that 15 reflects the honest input from the public to 16 the degree we had the statutory authority to do 17 so; and that bears in mind that these are 18 difficult, important, and challenging 19 decisions, and need -- need our full effort. 20 And to that end, we have a large team of 21 people here that have helped work this rule, 22 and there are quite specific areas that they 23 have far more expertise than do I. So they are 24 here at your disposal, and eager to provide you 25 any additional information you may have. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 207 December 14, 1999 1 Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you, Betty. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think probably, 5 Governor, we've heard the presentation. I'm 6 going to ask those that -- we know that people 7 have signed up. I'm going to ask Wayne to go 8 through the list that's signed up. 9 And I'd like to do it this way: If you 10 want to talk about -- there is -- there is one 11 area that I'd like to hold till the last, 12 because it has -- it is by itself a -- an area 13 that should have discussion, and that would be 14 the poverty factor included in the school 15 grading system. 16 Those that would like to speak to that 17 alone, I'd ask you to hold off until we go 18 through the rest. Those that would like to 19 speak of that, and everything else, feel free 20 to come in -- in line as we come through the 21 list. 22 Thank you. 23 MR. PIERSON: How many of these do you want 24 me to identify to start with? If I go through 25 this whole list, they won't remember where they ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 208 December 14, 1999 1 are. 2 We've got -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't you just do, 4 like, five or six at a time then. 5 MR. PIERSON: Okay. The -- the first 6 speaker will be Mary Compton from 7 Sarasota County; second, Catherine Kitto from 8 Sarasota County; next, Maureen Dinnen from 9 FTP-NEA; Beth VanVranken from Braden River 10 Elementary School, Manatee County; and 11 Jenny Limbacher from Braden River Elementary 12 School Advisory Council, Manatee County. 13 MS. COMPTON: Good afternoon. 14 My name is Mary Compton, and I'm a 15 fourth grade teacher at Gulf Gate School in 16 Sarasota, which has been identified as an 17 A school. 18 I am speaking on behalf of five educators 19 who have accompanied me to speak to this 20 important issue. 21 We believe that Rule 6A-1.00998, or better 22 known as the school grading rule, is having a 23 detrimental effect on our schools. 24 This rule misuses the Florida Comprehensive 25 Achievement Test and subjects our schools to an ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 209 December 14, 1999 1 unfair grading system, which is both 2 demoralizing, and counterproductive. 3 There is simply no way of fixing this rule, 4 because the very foundation of this rule is 5 both shallow and faulty. 6 First of all, this rule measures student 7 achievement solely on the basis of the FCAT 8 test. Now, we have all fallen under the spell 9 of the FCAT test today. The FCAT is a good 10 test. It was designed to measure how well 11 teachers were teaching the Sunshine State 12 Standards. 13 In order to meet these high standards, 14 schools across the state were adopting programs 15 which developed higher order thinking skills. 16 And these skills are the backbones of our 17 excellent State standards. 18 The fault with this rule lies in the fact 19 that it uses only the FCAT to measure student 20 achievement. And when you use only one tool to 21 measure accountability and student achievement, 22 you're asking for trouble. 23 The effect is that our schools have become 24 centers for test preparation. As teachers and 25 administrators are now adopting programs which ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 210 December 14, 1999 1 promise that their schools won't end up on the 2 wrong side of the bell curve. 3 The curriculum in our schools have been 4 narrowed to teaching for the test. Subjects 5 which are not tested, such as the fine arts, 6 civics, and extracurriculum activities, are 7 being squeezed out of our schools, as more time 8 and money is dedicated to getting ready for the 9 big test. 10 In my hand, I hold a children's classic, 11 Johnny Tremain. This book burns forever in the 12 hearts of my students. It's about the freedom 13 we enjoy in this country. 14 These kinds of books are being replaced by 15 test prep workbooks. Now, I ask you, and I ask 16 the audience, what do you want your 17 fourth grader learning about in our schools? 18 And as long as I'm talking about freedom, 19 under the current rule, it appears as if 20 legislators are mandating exactly what will be 21 taught in our classrooms. 22 I'm sorry. There is something ominous 23 about children learning only what the State 24 wants them to learn. Textbooks, only covering 25 what the State considers to be important. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 211 December 14, 1999 1 And if a teacher, or student, should stray 2 from this path, they will be found out at the 3 time of testing. The result has been a loss of 4 creativity on both the part of teachers and 5 students. Fear is doing away with any original 6 thoughts in our schools. 7 Finally, we do not approve of the grading 8 of schools. This is a simplistic way of 9 evaluating schools, and does not measure how 10 much progress each child makes. 11 Because of this misuse of data, we have 12 seen several fine schools and hardworking 13 teachers who are dedicated for -- to working 14 with the poor and disadvantaged children 15 receive a grade of D or F. 16 As a professionals -- as professionals, we 17 cannot endorse a program which treats our 18 colleagues in such an unjust manner. 19 So we ask you today to begin to rethink 20 your accountability program. Accountability is 21 necessary, and part of a good education system. 22 But the goal of accountability should always be 23 to improve our schools, and not hurt them. 24 And speaking to accountability, my 25 principal, Ms. Kitto, will address that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 212 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 2 MS. KITTO: Thank you. 3 Governor and Cabinet, thank you for 4 listening to us today. Indeed, it has been for 5 us -- or at least for me, a lesson in civics 6 just being here, and I -- I appreciate that. 7 I would like to address just some -- some 8 personal views that I have. I consider myself 9 on the front line, although I know my teachers 10 are the real front line people. 11 But I'm -- I'm watching them, and I'm very 12 concerned about what is happening, a lot of 13 which Mary spoke about. A couple of points 14 in fact. 15 Last Friday we had our annual arts day. 16 And it's something we all look forward to. 17 Community artists come to our campus and share 18 not only their visual arts, but the performing 19 arts. We have dance groups and musical groups. 20 And all day, the students are out about campus 21 appreciating the arts, and participating in 22 them. 23 And at the end of that wonderful day, a 24 teacher came up to me and said, well, another 25 day shot not practicing for the FCAT. And it ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 213 December 14, 1999 1 broke my heart. It -- it doesn't feel good 2 when teachers feel that way. 3 And I -- I see that happening in other 4 instances as well. We developed a beautiful 5 state of the art science lab at our school, and 6 it's for third, fourth, and fifth grade 7 students. And the teachers asked me last month 8 if they could please disband the schedule for 9 the month of January so they could prep for the 10 FCAT. 11 The -- what goes on in that science lab is 12 unbelievable learning. But it isn't tested 13 directly on the FCAT, and so -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: You didn't let them, did 15 you? I'm sorry. 16 MS. KITTO: Excuse me? 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: You didn't -- 18 MS. KITTO: Well, as a matter of fact, I 19 didn't let them. But -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good for you. 21 MS. KITTO: -- but they asked me if they 22 could deviate from the curriculum, and -- and 23 practice on scientific experiments and 24 activities that will address the FCAT. 25 So there -- there's that -- that sense of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 214 December 14, 1999 1 nervousness for -- for the FCAT. 2 What we would like to offer, I -- I 3 certainly am not against testing. And as Mary 4 said, the FCAT is a -- a good test. It has 5 wonderful potential. If it's used for what it 6 was designed to be used, and that's to help us, 7 to inform us, about what we need to be doing 8 better. And not to grade us with rewards and 9 punishments. 10 And that's what we see happening with the 11 FCAT, which -- which, again, narrows the 12 curriculum, and that worries me a lot. We -- 13 we are very focused on what is on the test. 14 And that's what happens when high stakes 15 testing occurs. And it will be high stakes as 16 long as schools are receiving grades, and 17 money. 18 What I would like to see instead -- and 19 I think we're heading in the right direction 20 when we talk about individual student gains. 21 That's a good thing, and I'm glad that's going 22 to happen. 23 But also accountability systems must take 24 in other factors. They must not be driven by 25 one single indicator, one single test. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 215 December 14, 1999 1 They must include community, teacher, 2 student, and school based indicators, as well 3 as test scores. 4 They must include monitoring and support 5 for equitable and substantial learning for all 6 students. And I could give you an example 7 where focusing on the FCAT doesn't necessarily 8 do that. 9 We must not use punitive methods for 10 students and teachers. And I think grading Ds 11 and Fs is punitive. It makes people feel 12 terrible. And it causes people to want to 13 leave D and F schools, not -- not students, but 14 teachers. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we stop a second on 16 that? Because that's an excellent point. 17 And I've looked at data that shows that 18 that was going on the -- we're going to use 19 stability or mobility rates, one of the two, 20 was either higher or lower, in the schools that 21 were lower performing long before the grading 22 system was in place. 23 Has that been your experience? 24 MS. KITTO: That low SES schools are lower 25 performing, is that what you're saying? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 216 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Lower performing schools 2 have always had higher mobility rates for -- 3 MS. KITTO: Oh, yeah. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- teachers. 5 MS. KITTO: Oh, I think that's certainly -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 7 MS. KITTO: -- our experience, right. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. I'm not sure if 9 the -- that's why I was asking is I'm not sure 10 the grading system is the cause for that, or 11 the factor is that maybe -- and different 12 counties have different ways of doing it, but 13 the collective bargaining agreement -- 14 MS. KITTO: Uh-hum. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- allows teachers with 16 longer service -- 17 MS. KITTO: Right. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to be able to move to 19 schools -- 20 MS. KITTO: I -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- of their choice. 22 MS. KITTO: Yeah. 23 I think to a degree, that's true. For one 24 thing, the burnout rate in those schools is 25 very high. It's very exhausting. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 217 December 14, 1999 1 And I think that that, coupled with the 2 fact that you get labeled with a D or a F, 3 increases that humil-- humiliation, I think. 4 I just see teachers in our two D schools -- 5 and I hate to call them D schools, because it 6 acknowledges that I believe they are, and 7 they're not -- but those teachers feel awful. 8 And it has made our teachers at, quote, an 9 A school feel badly, too, because we know that 10 they're working just as hard as we are. And 11 we -- we come up with a bonus. 12 So -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: If you know that they're 14 getting more money at the D schools, then 15 you -- 16 MS. KITTO: Yeah, we -- we know that. And, 17 as a matter of fact, they -- they actually -- a 18 lot of those schools get more money anyway. 19 I mean, they get the title funds and -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Notwithstanding the Title I 21 money -- 22 MS. KITTO: I understand that. Right. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the D schools are 24 getting more money than your school -- 25 MS. KITTO: Correct. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 218 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the $100 per student -- 2 MS. KITTO: We know that. I -- I think -- 3 I think my point would be that, rather than go 4 with the reward system, we need to put adequate 5 funding into all schools so that we don't have 6 to -- to struggle with this competition factor. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If I may, just one 8 second. Recognizing that this has been an 9 issue. 10 I took the -- the county that does have the 11 largest number of F schools, and I had graphed 12 a -- teacher transfers for five years, both 13 transfer requested, as well as transfers 14 received. 15 And I'll -- the top line is the transfers 16 requested -- 17 MS. KITTO: Uh-hum. 18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- the bottom one 19 is the transfers received. And you'll see that 20 this year, when they had a grade, truth of the 21 matter is, it was the lowest of those years. 22 Now, maybe it's all -- everybody that 23 wanted to leave, already left. 24 But the bottom line is that all of this 25 talk about -- you know, all the teachers are ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 219 December 14, 1999 1 leaving just isn't true in this county. 2 Now, I haven't done -- 3 MS. KITTO: Uh-hum. 4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- a cross, but I 5 will tell you that we have seen teacher 6 transfers across the board at about a 7 15 percent level, and it's pretty much still 8 there. 9 MS. KITTO: Uh-hum. 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So although that 11 is an argument that people like to talk about, 12 I think this sort of refutes that somewhat. 13 MS. KITTO: Right. 14 Well, and -- and I don't have statistics, 15 but I can only speak from the experience that I 16 am hearing from teachers, teachers who are 17 calling me and asking if I will have 18 openings -- openings next year. 19 I think the -- the last factor in 20 accountability system, and that's what we've 21 just been talking about, must ensure that 22 teachers are compensated at levels commensurate 23 with their critical importance -- with the 24 critical importance of their work. 25 And I think, you know, when that happens, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 220 December 14, 1999 1 then the -- the reward system won't be as big 2 an issue. 3 Now, all of those things, and -- and 4 probably many more, should be in an 5 accountability system, and not -- not heavily 6 related to just one test. And all of these 7 elements would, of course, be very complex and 8 costly and difficult to implement. 9 But, look, this state has done a wonderful 10 job so far with the Sunshine State Standards. 11 They're fantastic. 12 And our school district welcomed them. 13 We -- we worked hard to create a curriculum 14 that was in line with the standards. 15 And along with that, we have put in staff 16 development that -- that is again aligned with 17 the standards and with our curriculum. 18 And our teacher evaluation system is also 19 aligned with the standards and the curriculum, 20 and our administrative evaluation system as 21 well. 22 All of these things are fitting together 23 very, very nicely in a very complex sort of 24 play. And I think it's time to make sure that 25 our accountability system is just as complex. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 221 December 14, 1999 1 It shouldn't be simple, it shouldn't be 2 simplistic. And we need to work on it until we 3 get it right, because it's -- it's just not 4 right the way it is. 5 Now, last year, as you have heard, we were 6 declared an A school. And I can guarantee you, 7 we worked very hard, as we do every year, to 8 ensure that all of our students reach their 9 potentials. 10 However, we don't believe that we worked 11 harder or better than our sister schools in 12 Sarasota, or throughout Florida, who received 13 lesser grades. We think every school has a 14 difficult job to do. I don't know that -- of 15 one school that's slacking in its effort. 16 Every school needs more funding, every 17 teacher needs to be compensated better. And 18 that's why we are returning the bonuses that we 19 received for being an A school. 20 We'd like you, please, to just add this as 21 a very small token, we know it is, to the 22 general fund, the education fund, until we're 23 able to adequately fund all schools in Florida 24 and implement an effective accountability 25 system. Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 222 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: You may have to give this 2 to General Milligan. You're the Comptroller, 3 aren't you? 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: This week. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: We -- we gave out, I think 6 30 million dollars this year for improving 7 schools and schools that were A rated. And -- 8 so we'll subtract that from the -- the 2,500 9 from the 30 million. 10 MS. LIMBACHER: Hi. My name is 11 Jenny Limbacher. I'm a parent of a 12 fifth grader at Braden River Elementary School. 13 It's an A school. I'm also a SAC committee 14 member. 15 We have probably the biggest SAC. I'm not 16 sure about that, but we have, like, 52 members 17 on our SAC. We tried to get at least one 18 representative from each classroom. So we're 19 trying to represent the majority of our 20 schools. 21 So far we're doing pretty good with it. 22 Let's see. I was brought -- it was brought 23 to the attention of the SAC that parents were 24 unhappy with the emphasis put on the 25 standardized tests. They felt their children ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 223 December 14, 1999 1 were not getting a well-rounded education, and 2 that teachers were having -- 3 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 4 MS. LIMBACHER: -- to teach to the test. 5 As we investigated the matter further, it 6 was discovered that an overwhelming amount of 7 parents felt the same way. And SAC formed a 8 legislative committee, which I'm chairing and 9 brought here today. 10 We held an open forum at our school, and 11 this was open to everyone, not just our school. 12 A few other SAC reps came and stuff from other 13 schools. 14 We started the letter writing campaign and 15 petition drive. We obtained around 16 150 signatures. And this was just in a short 17 time. This was around Thanksgiving time. 18 And we have several letters from -- a few 19 from parents -- or quite a few from parents, 20 and a few from children. 21 And I have some of them here today. 22 I am here today representing those parents 23 and children, and would like to read a small 24 part of some of the letters. 25 Patricia and Michael Harshbarger state -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 224 December 14, 1999 1 this is what they say in their letter: 2 Please realize that the A+ plan grading 3 system does have an effect on our children. 4 An exceptional amount of pressure comes 5 down from the State level, through school 6 boards and administration, to the teachers, and 7 ultimately to the children. 8 From the first week of school, children are 9 gearing up for the Florida Writes test, the 10 FCAT, and SATs. 11 Emphasis is being taken off understanding 12 the subject matter itself and being placed on 13 test performance. These are tests that do not 14 reflect as directly on the students as they do 15 on the schools. The A+ grading system places 16 the stress on the child to uphold the integrity 17 of the school. 18 Please don't spend Florida educational 19 dollars on more standardized testing, but 20 rather on quality academic opportunities for 21 students. 22 We have a piece from Kathryn Boudreaux. 23 She says that: 24 I am writing to ask for your help in 25 changing the way the Bush-Brogan A+ plan for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 225 December 14, 1999 1 schools is being implemented in our school 2 system. While I agree that schools and 3 teachers must be held accountable, and there 4 should be checks and balances in the system, I 5 don't think the legislator --slature realizes 6 what effect this plan is having on our 7 children. 8 I feel that too much emphasis is being 9 placed on the standardized test scores. Many 10 bright children simply do not do well on 11 standardized testing. The children know they 12 can be held back if they do not perform well on 13 the tests. 14 My own child, who makes straight As on his 15 report cards, was unable to sleep or eat before 16 last year's fourth grade standardized test. He 17 was certain he'd do poorly and never make it to 18 the fifth grade. This year he's already 19 worried he'll never make it to the middle 20 school. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. I just -- 22 MS. LIMBACHER: Of the 180 -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I want to -- before -- 24 before I forget. Please -- is that your child, 25 or do you know the child? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 226 December 14, 1999 1 MS. LIMBACHER: Yes. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please tell that child that 3 that's not possible, that there won't be social 4 promotion based on the FCAT test -- 5 MS. LIMBACHER: That's what they're -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and if they're doing -- 7 MS. LIMBACHER: -- being told. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I just not -- it's 9 not -- 10 MS. LIMBACHER: Okay. I will. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please tell him -- 12 MS. LIMBACHER: But that's how they -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I want to make sure he 14 knows that before Christmas. 15 MS. LIMBACHER: Okay. 16 Okay. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Straight A students. 18 MS. LIMBACHER: Of the 180 days of school 19 this year, the first 100 are devoted to the 20 FCAT test. 21 Until recent protests from parents, our 22 school had a 100-day countdown televised each 23 morning in the classrooms. 24 I compare that to being warned every day 25 for 100 days that you're going to be hit by a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 227 December 14, 1999 1 train. Ninety-nine days till the train hits, 2 seventy-three days till the train hits. 3 Our principal finally agreed to remove the 4 countdown broadcast. 5 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 6 MS. LIMBACHER: In turn -- these are coming 7 from children. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Smart principal. 9 MS. LIMBACHER: In turn, the stress of 10 knowing their school's grade and their 11 teacher's bonus, depending on how well their 12 scores -- they score, makes many children 13 anxious. 14 Young children want to please. They feel 15 like they're letting down their teachers and 16 parents if they don't score well. 17 They are endlessly comparing themselves to 18 their peers. Johnny got a higher grade on FCAT 19 than I did. In a ten year old's mind, the 20 quick -- that quickly translate to -- that 21 quickly translates to, I must be dumber than 22 Johnny. 23 If we teach our children to obsess about 24 their grades, they will lose interest in what 25 they're doing. The fear of failure could ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 228 December 14, 1999 1 ultimately lead to that child dropping out of 2 school altogether. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I make another point 4 real quick, just for information purposes, 5 to -- when you -- when you go back to -- 6 MS. LIMBACHER: Sure. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Manatee County? 8 I -- I think that the majority of the 9 money -- the schools that have accepted this 10 money, the majority have not given bonuses to 11 teachers. They have put the money in to 12 technology, a lot of times; or after-school 13 programs for remediation. 14 They've -- they've used it as -- some have. 15 Some have done bonuses, and -- and -- but 16 I believe the majority have not. 17 And so the point about this money is that 18 it -- it's the discretion of you all to decide 19 how that's spent, the principal and the -- 20 MS. LIMBACHER: Well, that's part of the 21 problem, too. And I don't know where that 22 comes from exactly, because we're just now 23 getting our money and starting to spend it. 24 But this is -- I'm saying this off the top 25 of my head. But when we got our 108,000 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 229 December 14, 1999 1 I think it was for being an A -- A school, 2 there was a Board formed to decide what to do 3 with that money and how to split it. 4 The Board consisted -- I don't have it in 5 front of me -- but I would say 12 to 6 15 teachers, and -- and administrators, and 7 three SAC representatives. 8 We had no chance of voting it the way we 9 wanted to as parents. 10 Now, where that comes from, some people 11 think that maybe you guys, or somebody up 12 higher should be deciding how that's split, 13 or -- or making sure that there are an equal 14 amount of SAC or parents -- somebody -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good point. 16 MS. LIMBACHER: -- on that Board -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: That -- 18 MS. LIMBACHER: -- because -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- you're advocating my 20 position -- 21 MS. LIMBACHER: -- it's out of our control. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- in front of the 23 Commissioner right now. 24 MS. LIMBACHER: Yes. We have parents right 25 now and teachers fighting over this now. It's ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 230 December 14, 1999 1 a big fight. We're all -- they're all unhappy. 2 They don't -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: The point is -- 4 MS. LIMBACHER: -- want the money anymore, 5 the parents -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: The teachers -- 7 MS. LIMBACHER: -- you know. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: The -- the children 9 shouldn't worry about the teachers not getting 10 a bonus, when, in fact, they may not be getting 11 a bonus anyway, because it's -- it's for the -- 12 whatever the format is, really it's -- it's not 13 at anybody's discretion here how the money is 14 spent. 15 And it can be spent on, as I mentioned, 16 anything that would enhance student learning. 17 MS. LIMBACHER: Right. Except from -- 18 you know, from your end. But they're getting 19 it from the principal. You know, she's mak-- 20 we're making Board members, like I said, 21 you know -- where it makes it impossible for us 22 to get what we want for even a part of that 23 money. 24 We already gave seventy to the -- 25 70 percent to our teachers and staff. All we ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 231 December 14, 1999 1 wanted was 30 percent for the parents and 2 teachers to help, you know, decide what to do 3 with that for the classrooms. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Senator Cowin's here 5 watching. That might be something we could 6 look at through the Legislature to provide a 7 little guidance since these rules are a 8 reflection of law. 9 MS. LIMBACHER: Okay. And then I have just 10 a -- a couple here, small ones from children. 11 This is Rhonda Makki. 12 I am an eighth grader at Braden River 13 Middle School. I'm in the advanced language 14 arts class, and I will be taking the 15 Florida Writes this year. 16 Since the beginning of the year, students 17 have been under pressure, as well as the 18 teachers, about the Florida Writes. The only 19 thing that we do in English class is practice 20 for the Florida Writes. We haven't done any 21 poetry, grammar, or literature. These courses 22 also need to be taught. 23 I'm nervous about this test. And so are 24 all my friends. 25 How about if I, or anyone, gets put in the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 232 December 14, 1999 1 wrong level due to one test? That would maybe 2 make it easier if it was lower than before, but 3 they wouldn't be learning anything at all. 4 Many kids are being put under some 5 pressure. If not some, lots of pressure. The 6 teachers are stressed out, and are stressing us 7 out, and the students are already stressed out 8 as it is. 9 Grammar, poetry -- these were written by 10 these kids -- grammar, poetry, literature, and 11 much more are all essential to anyone's life. 12 So we should all try to make it happen. And 13 then maybe we could pass a grade without it 14 depending on the Florida Writes. 15 Then there's one from a fifth grader, 16 Aubrey Helm. She signs it: A Bored 5th 17 Grader. 18 All we do is math and reading and writing. 19 I love to read, but math is just okay. 20 I am so bored in school. We are preparing 21 for the test. They tell the kids -- oh, 22 I'm sorry -- when we are preparing for the 23 test, they tell the kids who don't know the 24 answers, the answers so they can remember them 25 for the test. I don't think that's fair. It ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 233 December 14, 1999 1 is too easy that way. 2 We aren't doing any social studies or 3 science. We only did one project on endangered 4 species, which I really liked. I have begged 5 my mom to home school me, but she says we are 6 in walking distance from a good school and 7 won't let me. 8 Please help. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You know, I think 10 I might need to know what school that is where, 11 in fact, they know the questions -- 12 MS. LIMBACHER: They are -- 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- and the 14 answers -- 15 MS. LIMBACHER: -- Braden River -- 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- of the test. 17 Because really -- 18 MS. LIMBACHER: I think -- I think what she 19 means by that is that apparently they are 20 drilling them. And they were -- you know, they 21 are telling the kids -- if the kid can't figure 22 out the -- the answer by himself -- instead of 23 making them think for themselves and come up 24 with that answer somewhere, they're eventually 25 telling them the answer. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 234 December 14, 1999 1 And I don't mean on a real test, like on 2 pretes-- 3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let -- 4 MS. LIMBACHER: -- you know -- 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- but that isn't 6 going to help -- 7 MS. LIMBACHER: -- in preparing them. 8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That isn't going 9 to help a child if you're talking about the 10 reading test who has to read, comprehend what 11 they wrote, and be able to extrapolate that 12 information into -- 13 MS. LIMBACHER: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- into the answer 15 to a question. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So the bottom line 18 is, what we're looking for is -- and what we're 19 measuring is the ability for children to read 20 and comprehend any subject -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we -- 22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- any time. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm -- I'm -- I'm really 24 sorry, because this goes against my basic 25 principal of high air fare or high costs of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 235 December 14, 1999 1 travel to get -- to get up to Tallahassee. And 2 I want to make sure everybody has a chance to 3 speak. 4 But we have a couple of Cabinet members 5 that may be having to leave in the afternoon to 6 go out of -- out of town. And if we could 7 encourage everybody to stay within an allotted 8 time, it would be great. 9 I'm more than happy to hear -- this is my 10 favorite subject. I could stay here till 11 midnight, but I think others may want us to 12 move on. And plus we have a lot of people that 13 have been waiting a long -- long hours since we 14 had a long -- a long morning. 15 So if we can -- I promise I won't ask 16 another question. 17 MS. LIMBACHER: Do you want me to just -- 18 do you want me to just end it then; is that 19 what you're saying? 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we've got two more 21 teachers, and we've got about 20 other people 22 that are against; and we've probably got 10, 23 15 people that are for; and it's going to take 24 about 3 hours. 25 So you can keep talking, but just -- I'm ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 236 December 14, 1999 1 just -- 2 MS. LIMBACHER: Well, we traveled a long 3 ways up here, too. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's why I'm telling 5 you -- 6 MS. LIMBACHER: And we noticed that 7 everybody was taking quite a bit of time up 8 here. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Exactly. And that's why I 10 want you to keep going. 11 MS. LIMBACHER: Well, I didn't have much 12 more to say anyway, except for that I didn't 13 like the attendance issue. I think that that's 14 a parent issue. 15 I think that you cannot make your -- the 16 school and the principals responsible for 17 attendance. You know, I'm the one that decides 18 whether my child goes to school or not. 19 Nobody's going to tell me whether she needs to 20 go to school or not. 21 I mean, I'm a responsible parent, I realize 22 they're not all that way. But I think that's 23 ridiculous to make the schools responsible for 24 attendance. 25 And then I just wanted y'all to know that ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 237 December 14, 1999 1 there -- I cannot express enough the 2 overwhelming response in this regard since this 3 issue has been opened up in that area, and feel 4 that the current draft needs serious revisions 5 before voting yes. 6 We all seem to agree that we need to hold 7 schools and educators accountable for the 8 performance of the students they are entrusted 9 to educate. However, is this how we want to do 10 it, and I feel it's at the expense of our 11 children the way that we're currently doing it. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 13 MS. LIMBACHER: Thank you. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 15 Good afternoon. 16 MS. VanVRANKEN: Good afternoon. 17 I'll try and be brief. 18 My name is Beth VanVranken, and I'm a 19 mother of a kindergartner and a third grade 20 student, and a member of the SAC committee at 21 Braden River Elementary School, which, as we've 22 said, is an A school in Manatee County. 23 And I've come here today, along with the 24 others, to express my concern about the 25 A+ plan. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 238 December 14, 1999 1 And I want to begin by just telling you how 2 this plan has affected my family, as the 3 well -- as well as the family of 26 other 4 third graders at Braden River Elementary. 5 It can be best related to you in a letter 6 that I brought from another parent, and she's 7 the mother of one of these 26 children, but it 8 could have been written by any one of us. 9 This is from Karen Wilson. She said: I 10 would like to share with you a quick glimpse of 11 my nine year old son, Ryan's, first four months 12 of third grade. 13 He began this year with Mrs. Parniske, a 14 teacher with 25 years of experience in teaching 15 third through fifth grades, voted Teacher of 16 the Year in 1997, and someone who was able to 17 teach my child in the first couple of weeks 18 that teaching was a well respected and fun 19 profession, something he actually said he would 20 like to learn how to do in college. 21 Wow. What a wonderful feeling to have a 22 teacher instill such wonderful aspirations into 23 the mind of a nine year old. 24 After a short three-and-a-half weeks, to 25 our dismay, Mrs. Parniske decided to leave. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 239 December 14, 1999 1 And the reason, in her words, was to tea-- be 2 able to teach the way she knew how to. She was 3 feeling the pressure to teach her students how 4 to take tests, and was expected to reward 5 students for attendance, rather than reward 6 students for what they were accomplishing while 7 at school. 8 Not only did our school lose a great 9 teacher, but my son and his classmates entered 10 into what I describe as a downward spiral as 11 they are now on their third teacher, who is a 12 permanent, yet temporary substitute. 13 We are about to get our fourth, and 14 hopefully, permanent teacher as of January -- 15 after we get back from Christmas break. 16 Just know that I attribute the loss of this 17 teacher and my son's current situation to the 18 Florida public schools grading system. 19 Now, I also bring to you some information 20 from the teachers, and how they feel, how the 21 teachers feel about the tests and the grading 22 of the schools. And I'd like to read a lett-- 23 a short excerpt from Karen Washington's letter. 24 She's a teacher in Manatee County, 15 years 25 teaching in the school system. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 240 December 14, 1999 1 And she speaks about -- about teacher 2 morale. 3 Says: I want to address the morale at 4 schools. I have taught at two schools. One of 5 the schools received a D rating, and my present 6 school received an A. 7 Having taught a number of years at both 8 schools, I find no difference in the teaching 9 ability of either staff. Both schools imply -- 10 employ outstanding teachers who devote 11 countless hours of unpaid overtime to their 12 classrooms, as well as spending many hours in 13 training courses to keep abreast of the latest 14 research about effective teaching. 15 I knew what the differences -- 16 (Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.) 17 MS. VanVRANKEN: -- in the schools were as 18 soon as I began teaching. 19 Teachers at the school which received a D 20 rating spend more time meeting the children's 21 physical needs; i.e., adequate clothing, health 22 concerns, such as lice and impetigo. 23 These children come to school with less 24 background knowledge and experience to help 25 prepare one for reading, math, and other ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 241 December 14, 1999 1 subjects. 2 Schools such as the one mentioned have a 3 much higher ratio of special needs children. 4 And despite these circumstances, the child-- 5 the teachers at these schools are dedicated to 6 ensuring that each child makes great strides in 7 learning each year. 8 What is their reward for doing the very 9 best they can? A public acknowledgment that 10 they are a failing school. 11 Instead of using tests to determine which 12 children need extra help, the tests indicate 13 that teachers are not doing their jobs. 14 This could not be farther from the truth 15 and is truly discouraging to teachers. And 16 then when -- when the teachers are discouraged, 17 obviously that's going to be passed down on to 18 the students. 19 While I do not disagree with the 20 standardized testing, I feel that 21 accountability is important. We've all 22 determined that accountability is very 23 important here. 24 I do disagree with the emphasis of the 25 subject matter for these tests and the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 242 December 14, 1999 1 subsequent grading of the schools based on 2 these tests. 3 You know, there are a few of us who would 4 deny that -- you know, that the standards of 5 the three Rs, reading, writing, and arithmetic 6 are important. But what has become of such 7 other subjects, such as science and 8 social studies and language arts. 9 And what price do we pay to maintain our 10 A grade? 11 (Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.) 12 MS. VanVRANKEN: And are the children 13 really learning the fundamentals of these three 14 Rs, or are they learning what they need to know 15 to pass the test? 16 Teach a child how to take a test over and 17 over and over again; spend hours and days and 18 weeks preparing; and chances are, they're going 19 to do great on the test. But will that child 20 be able to perform in the real world, or only 21 know the techniques needed to score well on 22 these tests? 23 These are just a few of the many concerns 24 that we have as parents and teachers. We ask 25 that the A+ plan be reviewed and modified. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 243 December 14, 1999 1 Grading schools is not effective in proving 2 student achievement. 3 Please listen to the parents, the students, 4 and the teachers, and come up with a better 5 solution to help every child succeed to the 6 best of his or her ability. 7 Thank you for your time. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Thanks a lot. 9 Now, y'all -- your school was an A school 10 last year, right? 11 MS. VanVRANKEN: Uh-hum. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Was there the same focus on 13 testing for the test last year as there are 14 now? 15 MS. VanVRANKEN: Not to -- there was -- 16 there was an extreme focus, but not to the 17 pressure and the extreme that it's felt now. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- 19 MS. VanVRANKEN: In order to maintain that 20 A -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: But if you got an A 22 already, why would you be -- why wouldn't you 23 do the exact same thing that you did 24 successfully the year before? 25 MS. VanVRANKEN: Because they feel they ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 244 December 14, 1999 1 have to do even better than they did before, 2 and they're -- which is fine, except that it's 3 to such an extreme. I mean, where other things 4 are -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. Thanks. 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Excuse me one 7 second. 8 You want to read the next list? 9 MR. PIERSON: There's still one more after 10 her. 11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Oh, okay. 12 MS. GANTLEY: My name is Julie Gant-- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 14 MS. GANTELY: Thank you. 15 My name is Julie Gantley, and I'm from east 16 Manatee County. I'm speaking as a concerned 17 parent of a child at an A school, and ask you 18 to reconsider your intent to implement the A+ 19 education plan. 20 Why should I be complaining when our 21 school, Braden River Elementary, received 22 $100,000 and the bragging rights from the 23 A grade? 24 Because I believe that the plan's emphasis 25 on the FCAT is counterproductive to learning, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 245 December 14, 1999 1 and, in fact, harmful to our children. 2 Secondly, because I hope we can improve 3 education for all of Florida's children, not 4 just the privileged. 5 My first concern is with the FCAT as the -- 6 as the major factor in determining how well a 7 school is educating our children. I'm not 8 opposed to education reform, standardized 9 testing, or assessment. 10 However, standardized testing should be 11 used as a guideline for remediation and for 12 developing new curriculum. 13 The current emphasis on FCAT is absurd and 14 misdirected. This is counterproductive to 15 learning by creating a very stressful 16 environment for our children. 17 I think it is very sad that the State has 18 decided that a child's academic success can be 19 measured by a couple of standardized tests. 20 The children I know are worried about the 21 FCAT to the point that they are getting 22 physically sick. There is tremendous pressure 23 for children to perform well on these tests. 24 Suddenly children have to take ownership, 25 not only for their own education, but for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 246 December 14, 1999 1 teacher bonuses, school funding, and the stigma 2 of less than an A grade. 3 Most parents I know agree how difficult it 4 is for a child to learn when they are under 5 stress. Studies show that ongoing situations 6 which produce high stress for children cause 7 the brain to downshift, reducing the ability to 8 think clearly. 9 Conversely, relaxed alertness produces a 10 high level of learning. 11 We all know that many good students just do 12 not test well. Test anxiety is very real, and 13 the fear of being retained is overwhelming. 14 As a mother of a child with learning 15 disabilities, I'm fearful as well. This is one 16 more barrier for my daughter, Erica, to 17 overcome. 18 Schools are becoming giant test prep 19 centers where the focus on FCAT is frightening. 20 True enrichment in the hope of a well-rounded 21 education are lost. 22 By trying to raise test scores, we end up 23 actually lowering the standard. This is taking 24 the joy out of learning and teaching. We will 25 see more and more teachers finding new careers ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 247 December 14, 1999 1 out of frustration. 2 Florida Writes has already done its best to 3 eliminate any shred of creativity that a child 4 may want to express. What's next? 5 There is pressure on the administration for 6 the school to perform to get an A rating and 7 receive funding, and that pressure is passed on 8 to our children. 9 It is unfair that the children should bear 10 this responsibility. Please let our children 11 live in a healthy, less stressful environment. 12 The role that demographics play in this 13 plan is being ignored. Should we feel good 14 about being an A school because we happen to 15 live in an affluent area? 16 This plan blatantly favors children coming 17 from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and 18 majority populations. Children who are well 19 fed, well rested, and live in a safe and secure 20 and nurturing environment are more likely to 21 show up for school and do well. 22 When children from more privileged homes 23 struggle in school, we pay for private tutoring 24 and buy books and computer programs to bring 25 our children up to speed. We expose our ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 248 December 14, 1999 1 children to a variety of cultural and learning 2 experiences as part of every day life. 3 The parents are working in a tomato field 4 all day, are struggling just to put food on the 5 table, chances are, they don't have the -- 6 these same opportunities. 7 So what does the grading system do? It 8 applies labels that no one benefits from. Poor 9 schools are penalized again. 10 Sure, we have great teachers at 11 Braden River Elementary, but many of these same 12 teachers came from schools that received Cs and 13 Ds. Are teachers at affluent schools working 14 any harder than the other teachers? I think we 15 all know the answer to that. 16 Instead of pla-- placing the blame on 17 teachers, administrators, and children in low 18 performing schools, let's work on the 19 socioeconomic inequity that plays the major 20 role in how our schools rate. 21 Even though it's harder than giving kids a 22 one-shot test and attaching a label, it's the 23 right thing to do. Addressing poverty in 24 Florida is the real issue. 25 I ask that you put more research into this ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 249 December 14, 1999 1 plan and involve educators. Let's reexamine 2 this and look for other means for education 3 reform. 4 Plans that focus on standardized testing in 5 Massachusetts, Michigan, and Ohio are also 6 meeting mounting opposition. A similar plan in 7 Wisconsin was implemented and quickly 8 abandoned. Let's do our homework here and do 9 it right the first time. 10 Thank you for caring about our children and 11 for the opportunity to speak. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming. 13 MR. PIERSON: After the next speaker, 14 there'll be Leon Russell from Florida NAACP; 15 John Due, Miami-Dade NAACP -- 16 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.) 17 MR. PIERSON: -- and Anita L. Davis, NAACP. 18 MS. DINNEN: Good afternoon. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 20 MS. DINNEN: Thank you. Nice to be here. 21 Good afternoon. 22 My name is Maureen Dinnen. I am President 23 of the Florida Teaching Profession/NEA, and a 24 34-year veteran of Florida's classrooms. 25 I'm speaking for 62,000 members of our ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 250 December 14, 1999 1 association, people who actually work on the 2 front line in Florida public education every 3 single day. 4 And I request -- I request that you not 5 adapt this proposed rule, even with 15 current 6 or last minute amendments -- 7 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.) 8 MS. DINNEN: -- that were added. 9 And my reason for this is really very 10 simple. I know that you have a difficult role. 11 You have a role as the Florida Cabinet and 12 State Board of Education. And that is somewhat 13 dictated by law. Your role is to implement 14 that law. 15 But you also have a constitutional 16 responsibility that I'm sure you're aware of, 17 and that is to guide our public school system. 18 And that should not be impaired, that role 19 should not be impaired by what I consider a 20 flawed piece of legislation. 21 And I think you were handed a fatally 22 flawed grading system. I don't think there are 23 enough amendments available -- 24 (Governor Bush exited the room.) 25 MS. DINNEN: -- for you to adopt to fix ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 251 December 14, 1999 1 what I consider fatally flawed. 2 Now, how come I say that? I say that 3 because the criteria used in the grading 4 system, in my opinion, was unfair, 5 discriminatory, and designed to continue the 6 failure of certain schools. In other words, 7 I think it's a stacked deck. 8 The criteria used in this grading system 9 ignores what I consider competent, reasonable 10 research on student success. 11 Now, what do I mean? I mean criteria like 12 student readiness for the 1st grade. 13 I mean like the socioeconomic advantages 14 and disadvantages that affect those students 15 before they ever get to our schools. 16 I mean like the effects of large class 17 size, which I can speak to with authority. 18 And I mean like parental involvement. 19 None of these things are the fault of the 20 students there, including socioeconomic 21 background. Anyone who's taught for a long 22 time knows that. You probably work harder with 23 that kid that comes out of poverty than you 24 work with anybody in that room. And it's not 25 that kid's fault. And it's not impossible to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 252 December 14, 1999 1 overcome. 2 However, it makes a difference when that 3 student walks in that door, and that school is 4 graded. And we need -- 5 (Governor Bush entered the room.) 6 MS. DINNEN: -- to take that into account. 7 There are obvious, in my opinion; proven; 8 and I guess common sense indicators of student 9 success. And I think we can choose to ignore 10 them. But if we do, we're not going to find a 11 cure, we're not going to find an answer to our 12 problems. 13 Any valid measure of student achievement 14 must take into account, must recognize all the 15 revelant -- relevant -- excuse me -- factors. 16 In other words, if we have -- if we have 17 something that we think needs to be fixed 18 anywhere in our lives, we will take into 19 account all the factors, not just a few. 20 I guess what I'm asking you to do is to 21 listen to us, and I can say us, because I am 22 one of those teachers who stand in front of 23 those chalkboards all across this state, and 24 I'm asking you to listen to us. 25 Listen to the parents that we work with ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 253 December 14, 1999 1 every day who continue to send you a message. 2 Stop this policy today, because we honestly, to 3 our very core being, feel that it is not 4 accomplishing what you want, as well as what we 5 want, which is improvement. 6 What we're asking is -- you to do is to 7 send it back to the Florida Legislature, and 8 tell them to fix it. It's plain and simple. 9 And when they fix it, to use criteria for 10 grading schools that are relevant and that 11 cover the waterfront, that don't just have a 12 couple of items on the list. 13 And then you can do the job that I know 14 that you work very hard to do, and that is to 15 write and adopt rules that will help every 16 student succeed in our Florida public schools, 17 because I honestly believe that that's what 18 we're all here for, that's what we all want, 19 that's what I've dedicated my life for. And 20 that's what the citizens of this state have in 21 front of them as a goal. 22 Thank you. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 24 Mr. Russell, welcome back. Seems like 25 yesterday. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 254 December 14, 1999 1 MR. RUSSELL: Or at least early this 2 morning. 3 I'm really going to change the direction of 4 my remarks. And let me -- 5 For the record, I'm Leon Russell, President 6 of the Florida NAACP, here representing our 7 branches in 67 counties across this state, 8 college chapters, and youth councils. 9 I think, without becoming redundant, it 10 becomes clear to me that what you all need 11 to -- to ask yourselves this afternoon is do we 12 have the buy-in, the important buy-in from 13 people who count in this process. 14 We all want our schools to be better, we 15 all want our children to have the best 16 education possible. 17 But this rule -- this proposed rule has 18 some problems. But the major problem has 19 become very obvious to me, and I hope to you as 20 we sit here. And that's buy-in from the 21 teachers, and from the parents who really are 22 critical to the success of the accountability 23 effort here in the state of Florida. 24 And when I say buy-in, what I'm -- what I'm 25 really meaning is that there needs to be more ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 255 December 14, 1999 1 opportunity in the development of the rule for 2 people who actually have to deal with it on a 3 day-to-day basis, to have input. That is 4 something that appears to be critically 5 missing, something that I would -- would ask 6 that you think about as you go forward in this 7 process. 8 There are elements that I would like to 9 address, but I think they're going to be 10 addressed by other speakers. 11 I at this point would simply say to you 12 that this is the time for us to step back. 13 Just because it's the millennium, the end of 14 the millennium, if you will, doesn't mean that 15 we need to rush hell bent on putting something 16 into effect that ultimately we have to change. 17 Let's get it right. Let's do it with the 18 input from the people who really know and are 19 on the front lines, the people you've heard 20 from already this afternoon. 21 Thank you. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir. 23 MR. DUE: Good afternoon. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon. 25 MR. DUE: My name is John Due. I'm an ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 256 December 14, 1999 1 attorney. I represent the Miami-Dade branch of 2 the NAACP. 3 And as I told an attorney from the 4 Florida Bar, I also, on a pro bono basis, 5 represent the parents of black children in the 6 Dade County school desegregation case who are 7 there as -- as intervenors. 8 I want to thank you, Mr. Nelson, and the 9 rest of the Cabinet, for recognizing 10 Mr. Leon Russell, because you're also 11 recognizing the NAACP, because the role that he 12 has played, particularly in the evolution of 13 development of the accountability law. 14 And my concern is -- and -- and he 15 mentioned it when he accepted your honor, that 16 you continue your commitment to equal 17 education, a commitment that was started over 18 40 years ago when the Brown versus Board of 19 Topeka, Kansas, case was ruled by the 20 Supreme Court and the southern governors, most 21 of them said, we're not going to comply with 22 the school desegregation. They talked about 23 nullification into position. 24 But, you know, your Governor here said we 25 are going to desegregate, Governor Collins. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 257 December 14, 1999 1 And pursuant to that tradition, our 2 Dade County public schools, when it was found 3 to have a dual system enter into a voluntary 4 agreement of desegregation, and when parents -- 5 white parents from south Dade, Governor Bush, 6 filed a lawsuit in State court to enjoin the 7 implementation of this agreement, the school 8 district removed -- filed a petition of 9 removal, and had the case removed to the 10 United States District Court so that 11 Judge Clarence C. Adkins could continue 12 jurisdiction over that case. 13 And this is important because it shows how 14 the state of Florida and the school district 15 wants to do the right thing. 16 And as we discussed this rule, we're very 17 much concerned as to whether or not are we 18 going backwards maybe unintentionally. 19 One of the things we're trying to do in 20 Dade County -- 21 By the way, Governor, I need to tell you 22 something. There are some good things about 23 the A+ plan. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm happy to hear it. 25 MR. DUE: One of the good things I like ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 258 December 14, 1999 1 about the A+ plan is that you maintained the 2 educational goals that was for -- and added to 3 them. 4 One of those goals was to make sure that 5 civil rights compliance was continued as an 6 educational goal. But I think what you added 7 as -- as an educational goal was parental and 8 community, you know, involvement as 9 stakeholders. 10 And in that process, we were very much 11 concerned about this rule. One of -- just last 12 night, the Commun-- Miami-Dade Community Action 13 Agency voted -- I don't think Pat Tornillo 14 knows this -- I think he's here somewhere -- 15 voted that they will enter into a partnership 16 with the United Teachers of Dade County and the 17 principals of the schools in the poverty areas 18 that are served by the Community Action Agency 19 in Dade County. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Excellent. 21 MR. DUE: And those are 19 poverty areas. 22 But, also, Governor, we need to know who we 23 want to try to work with. See, many of our 24 children from our poverty areas go to schools 25 in other areas where they're not the majority. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 259 December 14, 1999 1 And, Mr. Gallagher, I need to tell you 2 this: I hate to make it public about this, but 3 I need to tell you. 4 This is, what, December the 14th? We still 5 do not have the disaggregated scores of the 6 subpopulations of our children in our schools. 7 And this is important. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let the Commissioner 9 respond to -- 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You're going to -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You're going to 13 have those on Thursday. 14 MR. DUE: Okay. I've -- I've been hearing 15 that since July, you know. 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I never told you 17 Thursday before. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: You may want to ask which 19 Thursday, just to be -- 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll even commit 21 to this Thursday. 22 MR. DUE: Okay. Governor Bush, you know 23 about partnerships, you know about community 24 partnership, because I personally met you in 25 1988. You were -- when you were -- came to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 260 December 14, 1999 1 West Perrine to the funeral of 2 Arthur Lee Lawrence, who had been killed in 3 West Perrine, because he was part of a 4 partnership between the police, the public 5 housing tenants, and the West Perrine Christian 6 Association to work against crime -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir. 8 MR. DUE: -- in that neighborhood. And if 9 you recall, Governor Bush, you said, I may live 10 in East Perrine, but this neighborhood is my 11 neighborhood also. 12 But there's a -- let's fast forward to a 13 meeting of the School Board of Dade County a 14 few months ago when they were considering the 15 budget. 16 The School Board had -- had received a 17 proposal from the superintendent to use some of 18 the funds in order to assist -- not the State 19 funds, but their own funds, to assist the 20 children of schools in the F and D schools. 21 And that auditorium was filled with parents 22 from the C schools. And they were all saying, 23 please don't take money from us to give to 24 those people. 25 And I guess this is what some of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 261 December 14, 1999 1 teachers are saying, is that labeling, that 2 stigma has already caused divide in our 3 community, where -- again, we begin to hear 4 back in the '60s when I used to be an attorney 5 for CORE here in Tallahassee for 6 Reverend C.K. Stihl, you always heard that 7 reference, those people? 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know. 9 MR. DUE: So we need to get beyond that. I 10 understand that we're a total community. 11 So, Mr. Gallagher, I would hope very much 12 you would rescind that piece of your proposed 13 rule, at -- now, there's other parts that need 14 to be rescinded. 15 But it's very important to -- not to 16 rescind that -- that requirement that's now 17 there, that there should be disaggregation of 18 the scores of the subpopulation based upon 19 poverty and ethnicity where the children are 20 minorities in these schools. 21 And that way, we can then join you as a 22 partner so that we can begin to be part of a 23 process to help the school districts, and help 24 the State of Florida to achieve. 25 Thank you very much. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 262 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, let me just 2 say real quickly that we do not have 3 disaggregated data as a requirement in this 4 rule -- 5 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- because we want 7 to look at education as generic. 8 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And we are most 10 import-- most interested in the lower 11 performing quartile -- 12 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 13 room.) 14 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- no matter what 16 race, no matter what poverty level, no matter 17 anything -- 18 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- across the 20 whole state, as well as those students that 21 may -- 22 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- not have any -- 24 any -- 25 percent in their particular school, 25 but yet -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 263 December 14, 1999 1 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- they would have 3 some at Level 1 and Level 2 as for individual 4 students. 5 But I still -- 6 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- will provide -- 8 MR. DUE: Uh-hum. 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- the 10 disaggregated data on a per school basis, 11 because I think it helps you, and it helps 12 others to give those students the additional 13 help that they need to get where they need to 14 go. 15 MR. DUE: Well, just one short response, 16 Governor. 17 There's a book written by Belinda Williams. 18 She is with the Association for Supervision and 19 Curriculum Development. It's called Closing 20 the Achievement Gap. I'm going to try to get 21 the school district to send you a copy. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: That'd be great. 23 MR. DUE: See, some of the conditions and 24 problems are cultural problems. And this -- 25 this talks about education and segregation ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 264 December 14, 1999 1 where we're not using relevant teaching 2 practices to meet the needs and the learning 3 styles of the parents and the children in those 4 communities. 5 So we need a process of diagnosis and 6 assessment so we can identify what the real 7 problem is so that we just don't dump 8 everything on the school district, but look at 9 the problems in the community that need to be 10 resolved that might be culturally based. 11 Thank you. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 13 And that -- the information will be part of 14 the annual data collection that -- that exists. 15 We're just not going to use it as part of the 16 grading system -- 17 MR. DUE: Okay. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- at this -- I think there 19 was a misunderstanding on that. 20 MR. PIERSON: We'd -- we'd appreciate it if 21 people could keep their comments to 3 minutes. 22 We've got a lot of speakers, and -- and we'd 23 like to give them all a chance to -- to speak 24 today. 25 I called Anita Davis, but I don't see her, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 265 December 14, 1999 1 so apparently she isn't here. 2 The next -- next speaker would be 3 Pat Tornillo, followed by Dr. Howard Hinesley 4 from Pinellas County, and Dr. James Popham 5 from -- a consultant from Pinellas County, and 6 Tom Fisher from the Department of Education. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Tornillo. Welcome. 8 MR. TORNILLO: Welcome. Thank you, 9 Governor. 10 Members of the Cabinet, first I would like 11 to say to you that what is happening here 12 today, and regardless of whether as a person 13 you're for or against the A+ plan, and the 14 grading rule, the debate has raised the degree 15 and level of dialogue on education -- 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Absolutely. 17 MR. TORNILLO: -- to the highest level 18 ever. And that is in the best interests of 19 students, of parents, and of teachers. 20 I've been around a long time, and I can 21 tell you that there have been Cabinet meetings 22 in which the education agenda was over almost 23 before it began. And so what you're doing here 24 today, regardless of whether you're pro or con, 25 is a service, and a service to the people of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 266 December 14, 1999 1 the state of Florida. 2 Secondly I want to tell you that there are 3 features of the A+ plan that we have always 4 supported, and continue to support, such as the 5 Sunshine State Standards, the testing program 6 to measure those Sunshine State Standards. And 7 the expanded testing of FCAT. 8 And it should be evaluated for reliability 9 and fairness, and it needs to be stable. It 10 needs to be in place without changes for awhile 11 so that everyone can understand it, become 12 comfortable with it, and you don't teach to the 13 test. You teach to standards. 14 And if you do that, the tests will take 15 care of themselves. 16 We also have long supported the grading of 17 schools. But I have to tell you that our 18 version of grading of schools is not the 19 version before you today. 20 We think as long as it's fair and 21 consistent, and includes many of the other 22 variables; and includes all schools, charter 23 schools, private, religious schools, there 24 needs to be a level playing field. 25 You can't take a student from a public ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 267 December 14, 1999 1 school, give them a voucher, send them to a 2 private and religious school, without knowing 3 what the level of that school is. You could be 4 sending that student to a school that's worse 5 than where he came from. Or you could be 6 sending him to one that's better. 7 Now, I know there are difficulties in 8 achieving that. But it's something that we 9 need to think about. 10 We have always been for higher standards 11 for teachers, and educators, and we continue to 12 be. And we're for annual learning gains, if 13 they're valid, reliable. And we obviously are 14 for closing the achievement gap between those 15 students who have -- cannot learn, and have not 16 learned, and those that have. 17 And technology, as a tool for instruction 18 and the reduction of paperwork for teachers; 19 and more than that, but in the instructional 20 program. 21 So there are features of the A+ plan that 22 we have always supported, and we continue to 23 support. 24 Third, I hope you follow through with 25 Bob Butterworth's request for data from private ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 268 December 14, 1999 1 schools and other public schools, because, as 2 I've already said, that could be the beginning 3 of comparing apples and apples, and we need a 4 level playing field. 5 We need a level playing field for a lot of 6 reasons. But probably the most important one 7 is a sense of fairness on the part of the 8 people that you're asking to implement this 9 rule. 10 And finally, I was asked whether I was for 11 or against these rule changes. And the answer 12 is neither. I can't be for or against changes 13 to something that I believe is inherently 14 flawed. It's like asking death penalty 15 opponents which form of execution they prefer, 16 electrocution or lethal injection. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Don't mix your metaphors, 18 Mr. Tornillo. 19 MR. TORNILLO: And the Governor's going to 20 find out about that very soon. 21 It's like asking me to choose between what 22 I believe is bad and worse. Reminds me of the 23 movie from a couple of years ago, Dumb and 24 Dumber. 25 We believe that the grading system is a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 269 December 14, 1999 1 flawed system, and does penalize our schools, 2 stigmatize our children, and causes extremely 3 low morale among teachers and school staff. 4 So I say to the Cabinet that the Governor 5 and the Education Commissioner are asking the 6 rest of the Cabinet to vote for a plan that no 7 one is sure will work, including the people 8 that devised it and developed it. 9 I'm asking you to consider not voting for 10 this plan today because each of you is going to 11 be held accountable for your vote. 12 If Mr. Crawford and General Milligan, if 13 you can honestly say you understand what this 14 rule says and how it will work, vote for it. 15 If not, vote to reexamine. Don't -- don't 16 necessarily even vote against, but vote to 17 reexamine that portion of the A+ plan. 18 Convene a State Board of Education Task 19 Force, not a Governor's Task Force, not a 20 Commissioner's Task Force, but a State Board of 21 Education Task Force, of all stakeholders to 22 develop a plan that works -- or has a chance of 23 working -- and is accepted by everyone. 24 And when I say "all stakeholders," I want 25 to be clear that you understand what I mean. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 270 December 14, 1999 1 Not just administrators in the Department of 2 Education, not just the people who work in the 3 Governor's office, and not just the 4 Legislature. 5 But the people in the trenches, the people 6 you're asking to do this, and to improve the 7 education of students in Florida. But include 8 a wide range of people. Everyone needs to be 9 included and involved in this debate. 10 I have to tell you, there may be people who 11 will tell you that this has happened up to now. 12 I'm going to tell you, that is not the case. 13 As I go into -- as I read the e-mails and I 14 go into schools, after school, I mean, if you 15 took the open hearings -- and I've already 16 complained to the Commissioner about having all 17 those open hearings on the same day, and -- and 18 in such restricted fashion in terms of getting 19 input. 20 I know if there's one thing that -- about 21 Jeb Bush that I have learned, and personally 22 and as an operating style as Governor, it's 23 that he listens. He wants to hear all sides, 24 he wants to hear different views, and 25 everything. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 271 December 14, 1999 1 Do that. Give this plan an opportunity to 2 be debated, to be examined for people. He goes 3 into schools. Do more than that. 4 As a State Cabinet, convene a task force, 5 get the people who oppose it on that 6 task force. 7 And, Governor, I would invite you, as part 8 of this debate -- I did once before, and you 9 accepted. And I'm now going to invite you to a 10 dialogue with the Executive Council of 11 FEA United who are the leaders across the 12 state. You've been there before, you know 13 them, you've met them. 14 And any other member of the Cabinet who 15 would like to meet with the presidents, the 16 people who get input on how they feel about 17 this, they may -- you may not agree with them, 18 and they may not agree with you. 19 But, Governor, that has been one of your 20 hallmarks, and I'm urging you to open the lines 21 of communication far more than they have at 22 this point, because that is what's healthy. 23 That is what's good about the debate that's now 24 going on. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 272 December 14, 1999 1 MR. TORNILLO: Thank you very much. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: And there has been a 3 debate. There's no question about that. 4 Thank you, Pat. 5 MR. TORNILLO: I'll be happy to answer any 6 questions. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any questions? 8 MR. TORNILLO: Thank you. 9 MS. CASTILLE: I have to urge the speakers 10 to please limit your comments to 3 minutes. 11 Many people have flown up here, and would 12 like to speak before the Cabinet members leave, 13 and they have 3:00 o'clock flights. 14 So please limit your speeches to 3 minutes. 15 We have 18 speakers left. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Based on my FCAT math 17 knowledge, that will -- we won't finish if 18 there's a 3:00 o'clock flight. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I think it's -- we 20 need to leave somewhere in the 3:00 to 3:10 21 range, leave here. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. 23 DR. HINESLEY: Governor Bush and other 24 honorable members of the State Cabinet, my name 25 is Howard Hinesley, Superintendent of Schools ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 273 December 14, 1999 1 in Pinellas County, Florida. 2 First I appreciate very much you having us 3 here today. I would point out to you that my 4 comments are to address the rule that was 5 advertised in accordance with the APA. I am 6 not prepared to address the amendments that 7 were proposed today. 8 I would ask your indulgence. We have a 9 consultant here. Our presentation is longer 10 than 3 minutes. We would ask your indulgence 11 to give us the same amount of time that you 12 have given other speakers so that we can 13 properly go through our presentation -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- I -- I urge your 15 consultant to be brief, because the pros are 16 going to be the ones that don't speak at all. 17 And that -- that fairness has been the catch 18 word for the last 2 hours, and that is not 19 fair. 20 So if you can bring the consultant up, and 21 see if he can do it in 3 minutes, we've been 22 reading about him and welcome him. Wherever he 23 may be. 24 DR. HINESLEY: Thank you for providing the 25 opportunity to express concerns and suggestions ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 274 December 14, 1999 1 for improving the rule you are considering. 2 Before I get into my remarks, please allow 3 me to specifically thank Commissioner Gallagher 4 for personally listening to my concerns, and 5 providing access to his staff to share the 6 detailed document before you today. 7 I am here today representing the 8 School Board of Pinellas County. Our school 9 district stands shoulder to shoulder with you 10 in support of a strong accountability system. 11 Our record in previous State accountability 12 systems, and the present system speaks for 13 itself. We have successfully pioneered change 14 for years throughout our school district, so 15 we're not here today to whine or complain about 16 the necessary change. 17 We take our responsibilities seriously, and 18 tell our administrators, teachers, and support 19 staff, there are no excuses for children not 20 learning. 21 So why are we here today? 22 We want an accountability system that is 23 fair to students, employees, and communities. 24 It is also critical that the system of 25 accountability be accurate, especially when the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 275 December 14, 1999 1 stakes are as high as they are in Florida, with 2 financial rewards being issued for schools and 3 failing labels being placed on others. 4 Above all else, we support your concern 5 that real learning of the skills delineated in 6 the Sunshine State Standards be increased in 7 every classroom across Florida. 8 My school district fully supports this 9 goal. However, in my presentation, I will 10 question the appropriateness of the FCAT to 11 measure the performance of all students in 12 attaining the State's standards. And, 13 therefore, I will also question the 14 appropriateness of using the FCAT for measuring 15 the school's performance. 16 It is our opinion that parts of the 17 proposed rule are arbitrary and capricious. 18 Recently, you discussed students being eligible 19 to be counted in the -- in the testing program 20 if they attended during the October and FTE 21 count. 22 We suggested one word be added to that 23 rule: Continuous attendance. We believe that 24 improves the rule, as opposed to what was 25 already stated, young people perhaps being ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 276 December 14, 1999 1 there one day in one count, one day in another. 2 We believe that improves the rule. 3 The suggestions we will have still allows 4 school to be graded as required by the law; and 5 unlike last year, the most effective schools 6 will get the best grades. 7 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 8 room.) 9 DR. HINESLEY: The schools that are -- 10 schools that are least effective would get the 11 poorest grades, even Fs. 12 I want to emphasize again, our concern is 13 that the FCAT was not designed to be used as 14 the proposed rule before you today. 15 As you may know, my School District has 16 monitored the rulemaking process from the 17 beginning. We, along with many other citizens, 18 suggested improvements at the public hearings 19 that were held around the state in the fall. 20 We are not satisfied that everything has 21 been done to make the school grading rule fair 22 and accurate. 23 Thus we decided to use the processes 24 available to us for presenting our concerns and 25 suggestions. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 277 December 14, 1999 1 We realize the accountability law contains 2 certain requirements that cannot be implemented 3 immediately due to the lack of information 4 available to the State. The rule revision 5 attempts to address certain requirements of law 6 over a period of years, ultimately creating a 7 stronger accountability system after several 8 years. 9 Therefore, our focus is not on the 10 long-term, our focus is on the interim years. 11 We, the FCAT -- we believe the FCAT was not 12 designed to be used as the proposed rules 13 require. Of critical concern to us is the 14 issue of fairness. We believe the FCAT may 15 contain a significant number of items that are 16 norm reference, rather than criterion 17 referencing. 18 Some Department of Education officials have 19 confirmed our point. Throughout this process, 20 we are not questioning the DOE representatives 21 because the FCAT was designed and constructed 22 well before the rule was developed, requiring 23 it to be used for the grading of schools. 24 Does the FCAT measure what is taught in 25 school, or measure what a student comes to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 278 December 14, 1999 1 school with? 2 I'm going to stop my presentation, and now 3 introduce -- for the sake of time, introduce 4 our consultant, Dr. James Popham. He's 5 Professor Emeritus from UCLA graduate school. 6 We brought him in to study our concerns, 7 and to validate our concerns. Dr. Popham has 8 worked for the Department of Education in years 9 past, testifying on your behalf, representing 10 the accuracy of tests that have been questioned 11 in years passed. 12 Dr. Popham will walk through our concerns 13 for you as it relates to the FCAT. 14 DR. POPHAM: Thank you. 15 I just received 3 minutes from one of the 16 other presenters, so that gives me 6. 17 I now live in Hawaii, which is about 18 6,000 miles distance. So that's a -- a 19 minute 1,000, and I'll try to speak rapidly. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: I hope you got paid to 21 come. 22 DR. POPHAM: Sure. All the way. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: There you go. 24 DR. POPHAM: But -- but not for travel. 25 First off, I want to commend the -- the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 279 December 14, 1999 1 Governor and the Commissioner for trying to 2 install a system of accountability, and 3 particularly a school grading system. 4 I was contacted by Pinellas. I don't get 5 the feeling that this is a -- a school district 6 that wants to do away with the school grading 7 model. They have some concerns about certain 8 features of it, and they offer in their 9 materials they've given to you several specific 10 recommendations. 11 One of them has to do with the nature of 12 the FCAT itself. And they want to supplement 13 FCAT results with other important kinds of 14 data. 15 And clearly your system is predicated on 16 the FCAT. That's the dominant feature of it. 17 And if I could have that first little 18 slide. 19 Any kind of accountability system or 20 grading system that is -- went to a particular 21 test, is clearly only as good as that -- that 22 test is. 23 And from your perspective, because you're 24 not specialists in educational testing, that's 25 my field, you would assume that any kind of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 280 December 14, 1999 1 test that is designed to measure the 2 effectiveness of schools ought to, indeed, 3 actually reflect how well those schools are 4 doing their jobs. But this is not the case. 5 Some kinds of tests are built for different 6 kinds of purposes. 7 And to illustrate, you think about 8 standardized achievement tests, such as the 9 Stanford Achievement Test or the Iowa Test of 10 Basic Skills. 11 These tests are created by commercial 12 testing firms, whose primary purpose is to 13 spread out examinee performance such that you 14 can make discriminations between students of 15 the 87th percentile, the 85th, and so on. 16 In order to preserve that kind of score 17 spread, there are items on those tests which 18 clearly are antithetical to the purpose you 19 want this particular school grading system to 20 accomplish. 21 And I want to show you some examples of 22 real items taken from those tests, slightly 23 modified, to illustrate the point I'm making, 24 because it bears on the FCAT. 25 The first one is an item that -- that is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 281 December 14, 1999 1 clearly linked to student's socioeconomic 2 status. Now, here we say, a 6th grade science 3 item, a real kind of item, a plant's fruit 4 always contains seeds. Which of the items 5 below is not a fruit: Orange, pumpkin, apple, 6 celery. 7 You're going to have a much better chance 8 to answer that item correctly if you come from 9 a family where they can afford to buy celery; 10 where each October pumpkins are purchased, and 11 they know that -- this particular -- 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me -- let me 13 ask a question. 14 DR. POPHAM: Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This question, if 16 you're talking about an exam -- the FCAT exam 17 for reading, would follow a paragraph that 18 would discuss that subject, and the person 19 answering the question would be the ability to 20 have read the paragraph and to have come to the 21 conclusion from the knowledge in the paragraph; 22 is that correct? 23 DR. POPHAM: I'm not sure it's correct. 24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well then -- 25 DR. POPHAM: I haven't had a chance to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 282 December 14, 1999 1 look -- 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- you're telling 3 me that -- 4 DR. POPHAM: -- at the test. 5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, let me -- 6 let me tell you that we don't have in a reading 7 exam a question that has no reference to come 8 from. 9 DR. POPHAM: Well, I take your -- your 10 word, but I'd rather take the -- a review of 11 the test to make my opinion about that one. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I -- 13 DR. POPHAM: Because -- 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We'll have 15 somebody explain it that -- that does that 16 after you're finished. I'm sorry. 17 Go ahead. 18 DR. POPHAM: Well -- well, surely. 19 But I'm trying to persuade the Cabinet 20 members that there's some items on tests that, 21 in fact, are not necessarily designed to 22 measure anything other than socioeconomic 23 status. 24 That's very heavily influenced by the SES 25 level of the kid. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 283 December 14, 1999 1 Let's take a look at the next one. 2 And this is also an item where what they're 3 trying to do is see if the youngster 4 understands the meaning of the word field. 5 Okay. This is from a real test. And I'm not 6 saying anything about the FCAT yet. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. Let's -- 8 please, it's -- it's very important that you do 9 clarify that these are questions from tests, 10 not the -- 11 DR. POPHAM: Oh, absolu-- 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- FCAT test. 13 DR. POPHAM: -- absolu-- absolutely. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Nor are these 15 questions even like FCAT questions. 16 DR. POPHAM: All right. 17 The reason that I'm not sure about what's 18 on the FCAT is, in spite of two requests to 19 your office, I was refused permission to review 20 the items, even under security monitored 21 conditions. So you're quite correct. These 22 are items, as I stated earlier, from 23 standardized achievement tests, not from the 24 FCAT, okay? 25 But I'm trying to suggest to the Cabinet ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 284 December 14, 1999 1 members that if you come from a family where 2 your mom is an attorney, or your -- your father 3 is a -- a journalist, you have a field. But if 4 your mother happens to work at the local 5 grocery store, she may not have a field. 6 So kids from lower SES situations don't do 7 as well on these kinds of items. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: But how -- I'm just -- 9 if -- are you assuming that there is a bias at 10 FCAT, or do you have evidence of it? 11 This is a test that was prepared not by 12 anybody in this illustrious Board of Education. 13 It was prepared, after years, as I understand 14 it, of work by professional educators -- 15 DR. POPHAM: Well, let me -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- here in Florida. 17 Floridians. 18 DR. POPHAM: Let me -- let me give you two 19 reasons, Governor, why I think this may not be 20 the case. 21 In the first place, there is a very strong 22 relationship between FCAT scores and poverty 23 indices, incidents of free and reduced lunch. 24 Those correlations run sometimes between .7 and 25 .9, very, very strong relationship. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 285 December 14, 1999 1 And that suggests there's something going 2 on in the test that clearly is measuring those 3 kinds of factors. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Does that suggest we lower 5 the standards for groups because of income? 6 DR. POPHAM: Absolutely not. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good. 8 DR. POPHAM: Okay. Now, the second thing 9 is that the test was produced for the State by 10 a commercial testing firm that produces the 11 same kinds of items you're seeing on the -- on 12 the screen now. 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And let me just 14 tell you that that may be true. However, we do 15 not accept, and have not, although we have had 16 a few examples of trying to use their previous 17 items, et cetera. 18 But these items that are on the FCAT are 19 all specifically for us against the 20 Sunshine Standards, and against the 21 specifications for that test, that do not allow 22 open-ended questions like this without a 23 reference from which that would come in a 24 reading exam. So -- 25 DR. POPHAM: Well, this is -- this is not ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 286 December 14, 1999 1 an open-ended question. This is a multiple 2 choice question. 3 Let's turn to the next example of -- of 4 items which you find on these kinds of tests, 5 not on the FCAT yet. And these are the kinds 6 of items -- 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, the reason 8 we did the FCAT test was to make sure this kind 9 of thing didn't happen. 10 DR. POPHAM: These are the kinds of items 11 you find that are designed to measure a kid's 12 inherited academic aptitude. There are many 13 such items on those kinds of tests. 14 And -- and what you -- you want these kinds 15 of items for is to maintain that spread of 16 scores, because these items do it very well. 17 Kids are born differently. I have four 18 children. Some of them are better in 19 mathematics, verbally. My -- my daughter's 20 very good verbally. In spatial aptitude, she 21 ranks with turtles. She cannot possibly deal 22 with spatial factors. And -- and -- and kids 23 do vary. Okay. 24 Now, this kind of item though will tap a 25 kid's ability to figure out what conserve ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 287 December 14, 1999 1 resources means, and that kid will figure out 2 the right answer to that question because the 3 kid has good verbal aptitude. 4 The next item is an even more stark 5 illustration of this. This is one, the test 6 that the kids -- spatial ability that they're 7 born with. And this is -- 8 And we have manual dexterity as being one 9 of the techniques, too. 10 And -- and this is an item where the -- the 11 kid is asked to indicate which of these 12 letters, if folded in half, will have two parts 13 that match exactly. 14 Okay. Those of you who are astute -- my 15 daughter would never get it -- those of you who 16 are astute will figure out that B is the 17 correct answer. Okay. 18 Now, this is not taught in schools. We do 19 not do mental letter bending. But this is the 20 kind of item that spreads people out very 21 nicely. 22 Now, if it is the case that -- the FCAT has 23 many items of this sort on it. If it is the 24 case, then what it's measuring is what kids 25 come to school with, not what is taught there. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 288 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: And what happens if it 2 isn't the case? 3 DR. POPHAM: Pardon me? 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: If it's not the case, then 5 this whole -- then -- I mean, this whole -- 6 your whole argument is -- is off base, is that 7 the point? 8 DR. POPHAM: The argument is not trying to 9 show you guys are wrong, the argument is to 10 suggest that this is a question that has not 11 been seriously considered. 12 We do -- 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well -- 14 DR. POPHAM: -- not know -- 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- in your mind, 16 it hasn't. You don't think it's been seriously 17 considered. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think the point about the 19 FCAT test was that -- again, this was prepared 20 and approved by this Board of Education before 21 I came here, before this was -- I don't even 22 remember the -- it's four or five years ago 23 perhaps? 24 That this was developed over an extensive 25 process to move away from the kind of tests ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 289 December 14, 1999 1 that you're describing, to something that would 2 truly measure the broader aptitudes that -- 3 that the State thought was necessary to move to 4 a standards based system. 5 And -- I mean, if -- I understand the 6 dilemma you face, you didn't get to see the 7 test. But you're assuming that the tests 8 that -- examples that you describe are what the 9 FCAT looks like -- 10 DR. POPHAM: Possibly. Possibly, Governor. 11 I'm -- I'm not asserting that. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, here's the 13 Commissioner of Education. He says it's not. 14 DR. POPHAM: I don't take his word for it 15 at all. I don't think he was involved when the 16 test was created, and I don't think he knows 17 how those tests are created, and I don't think 18 he's right on this one. 19 But I don't know the answer. I simply 20 don't know the answer. We asked him twice if 21 we could review it. 22 You see, in -- in -- in my state right now, 23 Hawaii, they're developing the same kind of 24 tests, and the same kind of model that you're 25 using, a standards based system, they want to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 290 December 14, 1999 1 create a test that measures their standards. 2 I've seen your standards. They're very 3 good, to be assessed for sure. You could still 4 build a test that is related to those standards 5 that has some of these same problems with it. 6 And all I think that the folks in Pinellas 7 would like to do is have some kind of 8 independent review of the extent to which the 9 items in this test are of that sort. 10 If you don't have items of this sort, then 11 there's no problem at all. We just don't know 12 though. 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I am glad to hear 14 that. So go ahead and continue. That -- 15 DR. POPHAM: Okay. The -- the second 16 recommendation that the folks in Pinellas would 17 like to offer you is some possibility of making 18 an adjustment for poverty variables on the -- 19 on the FCAT. 20 And the reason for that is fairly clear. 21 If it is the case -- big if -- if it is the 22 case that the FCAT contains many items such as 23 the -- you just saw on the screen, if that is 24 the case, then you do need to make some kind of 25 adjustment, because you're perennially dooming ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 291 December 14, 1999 1 people who are not scoring well enough. 2 In other words, teachers who are serving 3 high populations of low income youngsters, 4 they're never going to be able to succeed as 5 well as -- as they would like to. And -- and 6 that's not fair to -- to low income kids for 7 sure. 8 I don't think there's anyone in Pinellas -- 9 I can't speak about Pinellas County, but in the 10 Pinellas County leadership, that doesn't think 11 that minority kids can't succeed, low income 12 kids can't succeed. 13 The question is: Does this test provide 14 the opportunity to measure that. And they're 15 simply not sure of it. 16 So what they'd like you to consider is the 17 possibility of making some kind of statistical 18 adjustment to see whether or not people are -- 19 oh, are serving large chunks of low income 20 youngsters can do very well on that test. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: The -- the implication in 22 that -- the troubling implication is that leads 23 us to where we are today, which is high 24 expectations for one group of people, low 25 expectations for another. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 292 December 14, 1999 1 And if you look at -- and you may not have 2 been here when we recently had this -- a 3 version of this topic receive a lot of 4 attention, which relates to an initiative that 5 I proposed related to admissions policies -- 6 you would find that there were large sections 7 of student populations in high school that were 8 not able to take the PSAT, would not be able to 9 access AP courses, were not being given the -- 10 nothing near the same level of support that was 11 existing in other schools. And the 12 expectations were lower. 13 And my concern about factoring in income is 14 that we create expectations different between 15 one group and the other. 16 And -- I mean, I -- let me just quote 17 something that -- that I have said in a 18 version, but I won't tell you who said it. 19 But we don't want anyone -- we don't want 20 to do anyone any favors by holding them to high 21 standards. Often we do -- I didn't say that 22 right. 23 We don't do anyone any favors by not 24 holding them to high standards. Often, when we 25 see people in difficult circumstances, we feel ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 293 December 14, 1999 1 compassion for them, and we should. But when 2 this compassion leads to expecting less of 3 their children, that is a mistake, for it sells 4 their future down the drain. 5 I'm tired of being told that children 6 cannot succeed because of the difficulties of 7 their circumstances. All we do is consign them 8 to staying in the same circumstances. 9 We must not replace the tyranny of 10 segregation with the tyranny of low 11 expectations. 12 And that's what we've done in this state, 13 and across the country, is we've lowered 14 expectations for people. And put aside the 15 cultural aspects of the test, which we can sort 16 out some other place, by including factors of 17 income, or race, because other people have 18 advocated that, then we move to this system, 19 and we institutionalize it. 20 Bill Clinton said this to the NAACP 21 convention. I could have given this speech, 22 and that was why I am an advocate of this. 23 And to suggest as -- and as with the best 24 of intentions, I know, Superintendent, that you 25 all are grappling with this, and trying to find ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 294 December 14, 1999 1 suggestions of why the outcomes are as it is, 2 why don't we focus, you and I, on -- on saying, 3 this is the outcome, let's improve it. And 4 that's what we're trying to do. 5 DR. POPHAM: Let me say why I so 6 thoroughly -- 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Whoa. It -- 8 this -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's a -- 10 DR. POPHAM: -- agree with what you -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's a -- 12 DR. POPHAM: -- just said. 13 Okay. I agree totally with it. The -- the 14 only issue that we're discussing here is the 15 extent to which the FCAT is a legitimate 16 assessment of what those kids need to learn. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- moved on to income now. 18 I -- I gave you a break on the FCAT. But 19 moving to income as a factor. 20 DR. POPHAM: It's -- right. But -- wait a 21 second. 22 The -- the income is an important 23 adjustment factor, only if the FCAT is used as 24 the prime grading criterion. It's only then. 25 If the FCAT is devoid -- if the FCAT is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 295 December 14, 1999 1 devoid of the kinds of items that I just 2 flopped on the screen, then you don't need an 3 adjustment. You're quite right. 4 But if it does have a strong, powerful 5 relationship to poverty status, then it has to 6 be adjusted. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I agree. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: If you believe that the 9 FCAT test is biased so that it -- it is unfair 10 to people of lower income, then that's a good 11 point. 12 But if you say because of people's low 13 income, we have lower achievement, and it's not 14 fair to grade kids, which is what we hear over 15 and over again, then I beg to differ. 16 DR. POPHAM: Okay. We're -- we're in 17 agreement on the central premise. The issue is 18 the extent to which -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Then why -- 20 DR. POPHAM: -- the FCAT -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- for the past five years, 22 this whole state has had a broad consensus that 23 this test was a meaningful, culturally neutral 24 test, and all of sudden it isn't now that we're 25 attaching it to accountability. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 296 December 14, 1999 1 DR. POPHAM: Not talking about cultural 2 bias. Indeed, I know Tom Fisher very well. 3 We've worked together for many years. 4 And I cannot imagine he'd have a -- a test 5 emerge from his shop that didn't undergo very 6 serious scrutiny for bias factors. 7 The question is: Once you have a test 8 created, and the Sunshine State Standards, and 9 you turn it over to a commercial testing firm 10 that historically has created items designed to 11 spread out examinees, you still may have some 12 items in there that are, in fact, correlated 13 with poverty. 14 Right now you have correlations of .8. 15 That's a very strong relationship. What's 16 going on? Why is that so related? 17 Pardon me? 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're going back and forth 19 now. Let's move on. 20 DR. POPHAM: Okay. The last point, and 21 then I will conclude. And thank you for your 22 patience. 23 I guess if -- if you, in fact, can make 24 this system work well, you have to attend to 25 some of the things you've heard today. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 297 December 14, 1999 1 Leon Russell said that every child has a 2 capacity to learn. You -- they can learn with 3 a decent school grading system. 4 If you make the kinds of changes that 5 Pinellas is suggesting, powerful improvements 6 where you're looking at other data, or you're 7 making some realistic adjustments for poverty, 8 if it's -- if it's a problem with the FCAT. 9 If you make those kinds of changes, then 10 I think you'll have a system that'll do the 11 State some good. 12 On the other hand, if you don't, it's going 13 to be bad for the teacher, it's going to be bad 14 for the kids. 15 If, on the other hand, this is simply a 16 mechanism to install vouchers statewide, don't 17 change a thing, because no harm will be done. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming all 19 the way from Hawaii. 20 DR. POPHAM: You're welcome. 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me mention 22 a -- a couple of things. I just want to 23 mention to the Cabinet just in a second before 24 our next speaker comes up. 25 Throwing poverty into the -- into the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 298 December 14, 1999 1 grading system without -- just the way it is, 2 we have three elementary schools that are As, 3 with a poverty level of 77 percent free and 4 reduced lunch; one is a 74 percent free and 5 reduced lunch; one, a 52 percent free and 6 reduced lunch. 7 By the way, it goes all the way down to 35, 8 and they're all As. 9 In Bs, we have 76 percent free and reduced 10 lunch, 72, 69, 66, 65. We have 22 schools that 11 are rated B that have a 50 percent poverty 12 level or above. 13 So we know that there are schools in this 14 state that have overcome income in regards to 15 getting good grades by those students. And 16 I think that's the kind of thing that we should 17 try to emulate, as opposed to take the other 18 ones, and lower those standards. 19 And I think we have a -- a speaker that'll 20 probably talk to the FCAT now as to help -- 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a -- 22 make one -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: General Butterworth. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- comment 25 here. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 299 December 14, 1999 1 I -- Tom, I agree with you there, and maybe 2 we have the same list here. But we also 3 have -- have a couple of schools that are Ds 4 that have only a 7 and 8 percent poverty. 5 My question would be: Those schools where 6 we have a high poverty level and a high grade, 7 are those -- are the neighborhoods that -- that 8 we're doing more school readiness in and -- and 9 such like that, and -- and maybe -- 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Good question. 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- what 12 you're dealing with is not -- not affecting the 13 grade, but pretty much looking at the school 14 readiness of the -- of the issue. 15 And I think that -- it'd be interesting to 16 find out what those particular districts have 17 been doing, because that might be our -- our 18 whole key right there. 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, you know, 20 we're strong believers in that, and there is a 21 major move on readiness. So I don't want to -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Nelson. 23 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I -- from the 24 list that Bob had showed me here, I counted on 25 here only 11 schools in the entire state that ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 300 December 14, 1999 1 had an A or a B rating that came with a poverty 2 rating of 50 percent or more. 3 Now, that's what I counted on this list was 4 11. You said it was 22. But whether it's 11 5 or 22 -- 6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Actually it's 25 7 if you count 50 percent poverty level or higher 8 As and B schools. 9 TREASURER NELSON: Whatever we -- 10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Elementary 11 schools. 12 TREASURER NELSON: Whatever the number is, 13 is the point not fairly dramatically made that 14 out of how many schools we have, 1,000 plus 15 schools in the state, that only 11 or 25, 16 in fact, score high that have high poverty 17 rates. 18 So it seems to me that the point is 19 dramatically made, the flip of what you were 20 saying, which is that the correlation is there 21 dramatically that, from high poverty as 22 measured by eligibility for the Federal school 23 lunch program, it correlates with the schools 24 being designated Ds and Fs. And it doesn't 25 seem to me that those statistics are ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 301 December 14, 1999 1 contradicted. 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, let's hear 3 from our next speaker, and we can get back to 4 that debate. 5 MR. PIERSON: Tom Fisher. 6 Next speaker is Dr. Tom Fisher. And for 7 the record, Dr. Fisher is the Educational 8 Policy Director responsible for the Assessment 9 and Evaluation Section, 24 years of service. 10 He has a Master's degree from the 11 University of Toledo; doctorate from 12 Wayne State University; responsible for 13 implementation of the State testing programs in 14 K to 12, including the nation's first required 15 high school graduation test, implementation of 16 Florida's College Level Academic Skills Test, 17 and several other tests. 18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This is the same 19 Dr. Fisher that Dr. Popham talked about, right? 20 DR. FISHER: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Just checking. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Like there's two of them. 23 DR. FISHER: I want to hit a couple of 24 highlights, and stay within a very short period 25 of time. But there are some things that have ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 302 December 14, 1999 1 been said that I think need to be corrected. 2 First of all, you need to put this in the 3 context of what it is. I believe this is about 4 standards. Standards are very important to us, 5 they have been to previous members of the Board 6 of Education and to our Legislature for some 7 time. 8 Florida doesn't do too well compared to 9 national comparisons, and the United States 10 doesn't do too well compared to international 11 comparisons. It's very easy to say this is 12 about academic standards. 13 The FCAT program is now approaching its 14 third administration. It is going through an 15 expansion. 16 As I said, there have been some comments 17 made that I think are erroneous about FCAT, and 18 I wish to take a second to clarify some of 19 that. 20 The purpose of FCAT is articulated in the 21 law. Basically it is to assess learning gains, 22 inform parents, and provide data for decisions. 23 That's what we're all about. 24 The FCAT measures challenging content. It 25 includes a variety of item types, including ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 303 December 14, 1999 1 20 percent performance items in which the 2 student actually has to do something. They 3 have to show their work or write a paragraph. 4 The items are written all within the 5 context of a variety of subject areas that 6 correspond to everything that the 7 Sunshine State Standards covers. 8 The math items are not simple computation, 9 single step items, they require the student to 10 think. That's what makes the FCAT math test 11 harder than the minimum competency tests that 12 we're used to dealing with. 13 FCAT is not a minimum competency test. You 14 have to keep that in mind. The items span a 15 range of difficulty, from easy to moderate, to 16 more difficult. 17 It's been said that we were perhaps at the 18 beck and call of our test contractor, 19 CBT/McGraw-Hill, as this test was constructed. 20 Nothing could be further from the truth. 21 We were in complete control of the 22 development of the test. It is true that 23 CBT had item writers who provided draft items 24 to us, but we had a series of extensive 25 committees that reviewed those items for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 304 December 14, 1999 1 factors such as geographic possible bias, 2 linguistic problems, race-ethnic bias, gender, 3 facton (phonetic) individuals with 4 disabilities, socioeconomic factors, prior 5 knowledge, clear wording, and so forth. 6 Every single item was reviewed by a 7 committee of people, or several committees, for 8 that matter. And on several of those 9 worksheets, it specifically asked for comments 10 about whether or not the item was reviewed -- 11 or had problems for socioeconomic bias. 12 I'd point out that Pinellas County has had 13 extensive development in the Sunshine State 14 Standards, as well as their review. And there 15 are 19 people from Pinellas County currently 16 involved with the development of the FCAT 17 program this year. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: So they've got -- they -- 19 they basically -- they -- they administer the 20 test, they helped build it, they have a pretty 21 good idea what it's -- what it's like. 22 DR. FISHER: That's correct. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 24 DR. FISHER: As far as the issue of 25 inclusion of non-FCAT type of evidence in this ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 305 December 14, 1999 1 program, I would say that it's reminiscent of 2 the program I helped administer in the 3 mid-1980s called the Meritorious School 4 Program. 5 Each school was permitted to establish its 6 own improvement goals and its own criteria for 7 measurement. And what we ended up with was 8 trivial improvement objectives. 9 This state, since 1976, has moved 10 consistently and constantly in the direction of 11 common measures. I'll remind you, common 12 high school exit tests, college -- college exit 13 tests, a common teacher and principal 14 certification test, common college placement 15 test, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The 16 public deserves a common standard, and that's 17 what FCAT does. 18 As far as poverty as an adjustment factor, 19 I'd point out that correlation does not imply 20 causation. Florida is -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Repeat that. I'm going to 22 write that down. 23 DR. FISHER: Correlation does not imply 24 causation. Has a certain rhythm to it. 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And a truth -- and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 306 December 14, 1999 1 a truth to it. 2 DR. FISHER: Yeah. Think of it this way: 3 Florida is measured against about 42 other 4 states and territories on the National 5 Assessment of Educational progress. 6 We have a ranking of Florida compared to 7 other states. I said we didn't do too well. 8 Suppose we adjusted those scores for whatever 9 factors you wish, and it changed Florida's 10 ranking? 11 Policymakers like yourselves and 12 legislators would then have a different 13 impression about what the problems are and what 14 the solutions are. 15 I'd also point out that, if adjustments are 16 made for any factors of this nature, it may 17 help low schools score higher, but it will 18 reduce the scores of higher scores -- schools. 19 Excuse me. They move toward the middle any 20 time you make adjustments of this nature. 21 There are a couple of comments made by 22 people who testified earlier today, and I just 23 want to touch on a couple of them. 24 The point was made that the curriculum is 25 being narrowed, that the book Johnny Tremain ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 307 December 14, 1999 1 can't be used; not using the science class; 2 only thing we do in English is Florida Writes, 3 no poetry, no literature. 4 I don't understand that. I just don't 5 understand it. Take the book, Johnny Tremain, 6 or any of these other things here. 7 Johnny Tremain, look at the reading 8 content, some of the reading benchmarks that 9 could have been taught using that. Word 10 meaning demonstrates -- or determines the main 11 idea or essential message, recognizes cause and 12 effect relationships. I could go on. 13 There's not one thing in the Sunshine State 14 Standards that could not be reenforced by any 15 of the common materials that are used in an 16 instructional program. 17 Science. Not using science to teach 18 mathematics and reading and writing is part of 19 Sunshine State Standards is beyond -- I have a 20 science minor. 21 Just imagine the math that's involved in 22 that, the writing that could be done in that. 23 Poetry? You can write and write and write 24 about interpretations of the great poems, and 25 poetry of our ages. I can't imagine why anyone ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 308 December 14, 1999 1 would say that Florida Writes Program 2 suppresses creativity. 3 I've seen some of those essays. They're 4 beautiful essays. They're written in 5 45 minutes as a first draft, that's true. But 6 no one has ever suggested that that is all we 7 are supposed to teach in our schools. 8 Lastly, the point was made that FCAT 9 contains norm reference test items. Perhaps 10 there's a bit of confusion about that. The new 11 FCAT expanded program will include a national 12 norm reference test. But FCAT Sunshine State 13 Standards version is completely separate. 14 Closing point, I want to share with you a 15 sentence that I took from something that was 16 written in 1981. Talking about minimum 17 competency tests at a time in which we -- at 18 the height of the national debate over minimum 19 competency tests, and we were still in the 20 Debra P. versus Turlington litigation. 21 Quote: Educational tests, albeit, 22 imperfect, are sufficiently accurate for the 23 purposes of discriminating between competent 24 students and those who are not competent with 25 respect to the skills being measured by the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 309 December 14, 1999 1 tests. 2 The use of these tests is preferable to 3 other less database methods of examinee 4 categorization. 5 And going on: The investment of money in 6 tests are minimal when compared to the costs to 7 society, both fiscal and humane, of having our 8 schools produce numbers of students who are not 9 competent with respect to the basic skills. 10 Written by Dr. James Popham in conjunction 11 with an NIE presentation in Washington in 12 July 1981. 13 Thank you. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: I hate that when they -- 15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you, 16 Dr. Popham. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- do that to me, 18 Dr. Popham. I hope you -- 19 I've been there. 20 MR. PIERSON: We -- we're going to -- to be 21 perfectly fair, we're going to switch over and 22 let a few pros have a chance to speak before 23 you all leave. And -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: No, no. We're not leaving 25 until we've -- the people have come from other ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 310 December 14, 1999 1 parts of the state -- 2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, we're going 3 to let some of those that have come from far 4 away places like Miami, that are in favor of 5 this plan, speak before they miss their 6 flights, too, if you don't mind. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely. 8 I mean, I just -- this is -- I don't know 9 what other -- other people have going on, but 10 this is pretty important. And people have been 11 here since 9:00 in the morning. 12 So onward. If we can be -- 13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, we heard -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- brief, it'd be great, 15 but I think -- 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- from the people 17 from Miami. 18 MR. PIERSON: Leonard Miller, Council of 19 100. 20 And next will be Rheb Harbison, 21 Florida Chamber; and Dr. Tina Dupree from 22 Miami. 23 MR. MILLER: Good afternoon. 24 I'd intended to say good morning. 25 I -- I want to thank the Governor, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 311 December 14, 1999 1 Commissioner Gallagher, and the Cabinet for 2 letting me address this group. 3 My name is Leonard Miller, and I'm here in 4 really three capacities: Number one, as the 5 spokesperson for the Annenberg Challenge, which 6 I'll describe in a minute; number two, as the 7 spokesperson for the Council of 100; and 8 number three, as a fellow who's lived and been 9 in business here in Florida for now 45 years. 10 And I have one other characteristic, and 11 that is, I love children. 12 You know, it was about two years ago that I 13 took over as the Chairman of the 14 Annenberg Challenge. And I'd like to describe 15 what that challenge is, and it is so relevant 16 to what we've been talking about today. 17 You know, the Annenberg Challenge is a 18 hundred million dollar effort, a partnership, 19 with its sole goal to make systemic change in 20 K through 12 education. And it's made up of 21 the private sector versus both profit and 22 nonprofit, and also the public school system. 23 And one of the things we did early on a 24 couple years ago -- actually before the A+ plan 25 came out, was to visit low performing schools, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 312 December 14, 1999 1 many of them poverty schools, to try to see how 2 we would put out our hundred million dollars in 3 grants. 4 And as we went to poverty schools, we tried 5 to pick -- and these were for our Board 6 meetings -- we tried to pick poverty schools 7 that were failing, but for some reason had 8 turned around, and become good schools. 9 And what we found, as we went to those 10 schools, was that they had certain 11 characteristics in common. 12 And, yes, there are schools that are 13 poverty schools that make it, minority schools, 14 what have you. And those characteristics are 15 invariably a strong leader, a strong principal, 16 one who marshals the teachers around him, 17 inspires those teachers on, who deals in 18 professional development, who deals in 19 incentivizing the teachers that are there 20 working, who brings in -- for parents and has 21 parental involvement, who does all the good 22 things that we've been talking about on and off 23 today. 24 And what my message is, is don't give up on 25 these kids, they can make it. Don't blame the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 313 December 14, 1999 1 customer for the product. The product has to 2 be adjusted, and, therefore, the customer will 3 learn if you have done that. 4 And the Council of 100 now that I'm also 5 representing is a group of some 150 business 6 leaders, academic leaders, from across the 7 state who've always had a marked interest and 8 desire to help in the system of education. 9 And the reason is because education is so 10 important, not only to our economy, but to our 11 very way of life in this great state. 12 So we're all about children, and we want to 13 see children learn. 14 Now, I must tell you that -- speaking both 15 for Annenberg, and for the Council of 100, 16 myself personally, I want to thank you from the 17 bottom of my heart, because from what I've seen 18 in the last two years, and spending countless 19 hours out in the field, out at schools, giving 20 grants, meeting after meeting, there has been a 21 whole change in this state, a whole change in 22 the thinking process of schools. 23 People all of a sudden -- and I attribute 24 it to the A+ plan. People are now starting to 25 think, hey, we do have a problem. These kids ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 314 December 14, 1999 1 aren't learning. How are we going to turn it 2 around? 3 So it's -- it's more now the system of 4 accountability, the system of setting 5 standards. And this business of, hey, let's 6 not look at those poverty kids, let's put them 7 in another category. Another category be 8 damned. They're every bit as good as anyone 9 else. Those children can learn, just like 10 everyone else. And to please, I implore you, 11 stick with where you are. 12 Last but not least, let me say that it was 13 two weeks ago that I was representing the 14 Annenberg Challenge, and we announced a 15 partnership with the Barbara Bush Foundation 16 for family literacy. 17 And at that meeting -- it was a great 18 meeting -- it was at a school. And that school 19 was the Fisher-Feinberg (sic) School -- 20 Elementary School in Miami Beach. 21 Jeb, you certainly know about that. 22 And I sat on that podium, and I looked down 23 over the hundreds of children that were sitting 24 in the audience. And they were great kids. 25 They were beautiful kids. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 315 December 14, 1999 1 But, you know, they had to miss it all 2 because 90 percent of those kids were minority 3 kids, 90 percent of those kids were on either a 4 free lunch or a reduced lunch program, 5 40 percent of the kids came to that school 6 speaking virtually no English, and 60 percent 7 was the mobility -- mobility rate in that 8 school. 9 Well, as I looked down, I had a smile on my 10 face. And the reason I had a smile on my face 11 was because those children were not an F school 12 constituency. They were not a D school 13 constituency. I'm proud to say, they were a 14 C school, and within 6 points in math of being 15 rated a B school. 16 Now, that's damn impressive. It shows you 17 what we can do. So stick to your guns, keep 18 the standards, don't make exceptions. You're 19 on the right road. 20 I implore you. Please. 21 Thank you. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Miller. 23 MR. MILLER: Yes. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have one ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 316 December 14, 1999 1 question on the -- 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- if I can. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Mr. Miller, 6 thank you very much for your good presentation, 7 and all your good works at all levels of 8 education, even my -- our alma mater, the 9 University of Miami, that you've served with 10 also. 11 But let me ask about the 12 Annenberg Challenge. Is that -- is that 13 limited to Dade County District, or is that -- 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Dade, Broward, and 15 Palm Beach. 16 MR. MILLER: No, it's actually Dade, 17 Broward, and Palm Beach Counties. And what we 18 are doing now is in concert and collaboration 19 with the Council of 100, doing some initial 20 planning on expanding it across the state. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That will 22 need additional money; will it not? 23 MR. MILLER: What's that? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That will 25 need additional money? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 317 December 14, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: Yes. All the time. 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: All right. 3 And I'd like to work with you on -- on getting 4 money into that. 5 Does Annenberg work at all for preschool, 6 early childhood learning? Or they only -- 7 MR. MILLER: We have -- 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- deal 9 with -- 10 MR. MILLER: -- what Annenberg is is a 11 program where we put in pilot programs in a 12 very -- a myriad number of areas, and some are 13 in preschool right now. Yes. 14 So we are doing -- we are setting up a test 15 program of all these different pilots to show 16 that they work, then expand them out, and 17 that's the -- that's the program. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. 19 Thank you. 20 Very good program. 21 MR. HARBISON: Governor, members of the 22 Cabinet, my name is Rheb Harbison with the 23 Florida Chamber of Commerce. 24 We represent the largest federation of 25 businesses, large and small, and by type in the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 318 December 14, 1999 1 state of Florida. 2 A lot of people that we talk to on the 3 education issue ask us, well, why would the 4 Florida Chamber be interested in education? 5 A little known fact is that the Chamber has 6 a long history of being active in the education 7 arena from world class schools on forward to 8 today. 9 And I wanted to be here today to make sure 10 that you knew that education and work force 11 education far and away are the number one issue 12 among the minds -- on the minds of our members, 13 Florida businesses, who hire the students of 14 our school system. It has been that way for a 15 number of years, and it continues to grow in 16 significance each and every year. 17 Number one, to the extent that it's often 18 surprising when I tell someone that education 19 really is a bigger issue among the minds of our 20 chamber members than legal reform. 21 So, in essence, we have been operating on 22 what we consider to be a mandate at the Chamber 23 over the last several years to try to make some 24 significant difference in our education system. 25 And when we saw an opportunity with a new ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 319 December 14, 1999 1 Governor, we were happy to see that, and we 2 were happy to support with extreme vigor, 3 passage of the A+ plan. 4 Let me tell you what our members say. And 5 I guess I'm a little disappointed that, among 6 all the conversations, some entertaining, this 7 morning and -- and this afternoon, I've heard a 8 lot of discussion about administrators, and 9 I've heard a lot of discussion about teachers. 10 And I've heard a lot of -- of folks say 11 things like, don't grade us using rewards and 12 punishment. Grading people using Ds and Fs is 13 demoralizing. 14 But I haven't heard a whole lot of 15 discussion, if any at all, about what our 16 school system is producing in terms of an 17 employable Floridian. 18 And I will tell you just an example of what 19 I hear on a day-to-day basis, it's a -- it's a 20 huge operating issue for our members. 21 Sun Trust Bank in Tampa had one opening for 22 a bank teller, took in 120 plus applications. 23 Of those 120 plus applications, found nine 24 individuals who were qualified for an entry 25 level position in a bank. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 320 December 14, 1999 1 What we hear from our members is that the 2 applicants that they're seeing today don't read 3 well, don't write well, can't compute, don't 4 have a fundamental grasp of grammar, have very 5 poor interpersonal skills, and those -- those 6 kinds of basic things. 7 And so we look at this as the sort of 8 Y K-12 problem I guess. So we're -- we're on a 9 mission. 10 And I, like the previous speaker, would 11 urge you not to back away. We have a 12 significant situation in our state today. Our 13 members that would normally be here to speak on 14 this issue are -- happen to be in Jacksonville 15 today, because Mr. King is having a work force 16 education meeting in Jacksonville, which is 17 another piece of this whole puzzle. 18 But I just wanted to be here today, again, 19 to tell you that education and work force 20 education are far and away the number one issue 21 on the minds of business men and women, large 22 and small across this state. And ultimately, 23 that's where our students end up. And the vast 24 majority of our students don't go on to 25 postsecondary education. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 321 December 14, 1999 1 And so we are looking for a way to make 2 those students employable right out of the -- 3 the high school system. And that's where our 4 interest lies in the K through 12 issue. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a 6 real -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: General. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- quick 9 question, sir. 10 I'm really pleased to see what a 11 Florida Chamber is insofar as education of 12 being its number one priority next year. 13 And since we have what -- what 14 Commissioner Gallagher has said a few months 15 back, perhaps over 50 percent of our 16 high school kids are not graduating. 17 In order to have a fully funded school 18 system, we will then have many more people who 19 will be qualified to be tellers, and every-- 20 and everything else. 21 MR. HARBISON: Right. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Therefore, I 23 would assume that the Florida Chamber then will 24 be four -- four square behind of a fully funded 25 educational system in this state. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 322 December 14, 1999 1 MR. HARBISON: I think the Chamber has been 2 there when it comes to -- as long as those 3 factors of accountability are in place. I 4 don't think you'll have any problem -- 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Even when it 6 comes to money, additional money going into -- 7 MR. HARBISON: I -- 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- 9 education. 10 MR. HARBISON: -- we were -- 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: A whole lot 12 of it. 13 MR. HARBISON: -- we were there last year, 14 and I -- as long as there is an accountability 15 factor involved in that, I don't think you'll 16 have any problem with the Chamber on that 17 issue. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thank you. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 20 MR. HARBISON: Thanks. 21 DR. DUPREE: Good afternoon. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon. 23 DR. DUPREE: My name, for the record, is 24 Reverend Dr. Tina Dupree. And I am delighted 25 to be here today -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 323 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: And we're delighted that 2 you took -- you've showed tremendous patience, 3 and -- 4 DR. DUPREE: Thank you. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- hung in there with us. 6 DR. DUPREE: Thank you. 7 I would like to thank the Governor and the 8 Cabinet for hearing my comments. 9 I am standing here today speaking to you as 10 a grandmother and a pastor. I am an advocate 11 for quality education for all children. 12 I've been involved in public education for 13 about the past 13 years. And just some of the 14 involvement, I've been a past PTA president. 15 Also part of the County Council of PTAs; the 16 Past President of ACE, Alliance for Career 17 Education; and the list goes on and on and on 18 for my involvement in public schools. 19 I am here today in support of keeping the 20 high standards for all children. Lowering the 21 standards will send the wrong message and 22 create yet another negative label for our 23 children. 24 We don't want to give any student a cheat 25 sheet. I think they should all be able to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 324 December 14, 1999 1 measure up to the standards, and I think they 2 can measure up to the standards. 3 I believe that our educational system has 4 been able to change because of the A+ plan, and 5 these are very needed changes that we needed. 6 I have never seen my grandson read so much. 7 I have never seen him go off and willingly turn 8 off the TV because he has to catch up with his 9 reading. 10 So I would like to thank you all for the 11 A+ plan in my home. 12 I'd like to say that we do need better 13 prepared teachers for -- in the low income 14 schools, because they do have more of a 15 requirement. So the teachers are the ones who 16 need to be prepared, because the teachers are 17 the ones who teach the students. 18 I believe that the grading of schools is a 19 good choice. It allows every parent, and the 20 community to better understand what the 21 contributions that their child is receiving in 22 their education. In other words, grading of a 23 school will allow us to see a total picture. 24 A grade is a tool that shows where you 25 stand. And I believe that all students need to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 325 December 14, 1999 1 know where they stand, parents needs to know 2 where the child stands, and also where the 3 children stand. 4 I don't believe that we should send the 5 wrong message, because if we send a message 6 that we lower the standards, I believe that 7 what we're saying, that if you're poor, you 8 cannot learn. 9 I bought into the A+ plan when I heard the 10 Governor give his inauguration speech when he 11 said, all children can and should learn a 12 year's worth of knowledge in a year's worth of 13 time. And that sold me. 14 So when someone said earlier, where's the 15 buy-in, I was willing to jump up and say, here 16 it is right here. 17 I grew up in the inner city, and was 18 challenged by my teachers. No one lowered any 19 standards, and I'm happy for that, because 20 that's the reason that I believe that I have a 21 Ph.D. today is because no one ever lowered any 22 standards for me. So I always stressed, 23 achieved the highest. 24 I believe that the teachers are underpaid 25 and underappreciated and frustrated and not ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 326 December 14, 1999 1 motivat-- motivated. So let's prepare them to 2 become motivated. 3 I'm in the training field, and I know that 4 motivation really helps you to learn, because 5 then you have the desire to learn. 6 There are certain things that -- that -- 7 that we know in the training industry as 8 accelerated learning techniques, which puts the 9 motivation in the training and gives you 10 creative ways to teach, which we saw in a 11 presentation earlier with the schools that have 12 made the improvements because of the 13 innovation, because of the motivation that's 14 been put back into the school. 15 I have spoken to more than 1 million 16 teenagers internationally. I tell students, 17 it's not where you live, it's who you are that 18 is important. 19 If we lower the standards, we'll be sending 20 the opposite message. Don't send the wrong 21 message. Give our children the best education 22 that they can receive. 23 My daddy always told me that can't was 24 dead. So I believe that my daddy, who's been a 25 roofer for 40 years, should get down off the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 327 December 14, 1999 1 roof, get a teaching certificate, and teach the 2 kids, can is alive. 3 Thank you. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 5 MR. PIERSON: Next speaker is 6 Lora Holcombe, Dr. Patrick Heffernan, 7 Janice Gilley, and Donna Calloway. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: If we can be relatively 9 brief, it'd be great. 10 MS. HOLCOMBE: Good afternoon. 11 I had some prepared remarks, but given 12 what's been said here today, I've sort of 13 changed them, so I'll -- I'll be brief. 14 My name is Lora Holcombe, and I'm a parent 15 of three young boys that are in the Leon County 16 school system. They're all in public school, 17 and one of them is taking advantage of the 18 wonderful things that have happened because of 19 the A+ program. My son has been allowed to go 20 to the pre-IB program in south Leon County, 21 which would not have been possible without the 22 A+. 23 So I want you to know how much I appreciate 24 that, and what's also happening at my sons' 25 schools. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 328 December 14, 1999 1 There are a lot of facts and figures that 2 you can take on any -- either side of the 3 school choice issue, and I don't -- I'm not 4 going to try to argue that kind of data with 5 you. But to me, school choice is a lot more 6 than that. 7 It's -- it's matt-- 8 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 9 MS. HOLCOMBE: -- more a matter of personal 10 liberty, being allowed to make the choices 11 that -- that you know are right for your own 12 children, not having someone tell you what 13 those choices should be. 14 I also want to say though that I understand 15 the frustration coming from the teachers and 16 the principal from that school in Bradenton. 17 If my child were at that school, I tell 18 you, I'd be stressed out, too. But it doesn't 19 have to be that way. 20 My children go to a school here in 21 Leon County that's a B school, but we all know 22 it's really an A school. I mean, it's the 23 greatest school -- I can't even imagine a 24 better school than the one my children go to. 25 Our teach-- our principal -- we have a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 329 December 14, 1999 1 really strong leader. And our principal sets 2 it up such that everybody knows that FCAT is 3 important, but it's not everything. And they 4 do other things at that school as well. 5 And I feel like as -- as long as the school 6 has strong leadership, and the principal puts 7 the teachers in the right direction, that you 8 don't have to have that stressful situation. 9 It doesn't exist at my son's school. 10 And by the way, I'm on the SAC, too, so I 11 know some of what the pressures are. 12 But anyway, I'd like to say, I also like 13 the A+ plan for several other reasons. First, 14 it finally really introduces accountability in 15 my way of thinking. 16 I am an economist by training. And to an 17 economist, accountability is nothing like what 18 you are talking about. Accountability is if 19 you can take your dollars and walk away from a 20 situation that's not providing you with the 21 services and the goods that you want. 22 The A+ plan finally introduces 23 accountability as far as I'm concerned, and 24 that is by allowing parents that don't have the 25 opportunities to -- to move to a better school ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 330 December 14, 1999 1 district, or to enroll their child in private 2 school. It finally gives them some 3 accountability, too. So that's my best thing 4 about the A+ plan is the accountability that it 5 introduces. 6 But I also appreciate it for other reasons, 7 and that is the standards -- I finally know 8 what my third grader is supposed to know. I -- 9 I love the FCAT test. I'm so happy to -- to 10 see him tested to find out what he has learned 11 based on those standards. 12 And this is something that I have been 13 interested in for years. When my sixth grader 14 started at kindergarten, I went to my principal 15 that year and asked, well, what's he going to 16 be learning this year? What are the standards? 17 And she told me, well, we don't have any 18 standards. 19 I said, well, how do I know the first grade 20 teachers won't reteach him everything that he 21 learned in kindergarten? 22 Oh, no, we -- we talk, you know. But there 23 was nothing for me as a parent that I could 24 take home and look at and try to supplement and 25 augment at home. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 331 December 14, 1999 1 So I just want you to know how much I as a 2 parent appreciate what the A+ plan has done for 3 us. 4 Thank you. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 6 Mr. Heffernan. 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I know it's tough 8 to keep it to 3 minutes, but we're really 9 tight. 10 DR. HEFFERNAN: Good afternoon. 11 I'm Patrick Heffernan. I'm known, and 12 I think beloved, by many people in the room as 13 the President of Floridians for School Choice. 14 But I -- it is really my academic -- 15 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 16 DR. HEFFERNAN: -- background. I've been a 17 public school teacher; head of a private 18 school; and most importantly for these remarks 19 today, I was on the -- I was a lecturer in 20 philosophy of education for six years at 21 Cambridge University, and did much of my 22 postgraduate work on the analysis of a test. 23 My points are going to be fairly 24 straightforward. And I think the first one's 25 perhaps the only one I need to make. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 332 December 14, 1999 1 Grades are one thing, explanations of what 2 led to them are another. The grading of the 3 schools should simply say to us, and does 4 simply say to us, as designed, what -- that -- 5 that a certain percentage of students have 6 failed to learn what the State considers 7 important for them to learn, a significant 8 percentage have failed to learn that, period. 9 Now, what caused that is now up for us to 10 explain. And the variables are enormous. It 11 could be that the child didn't apply himself 12 very well, it could be that there was a high 13 level of absenteeism in that school, it could 14 be that the teachers at that school were less 15 qualified than the teachers at better schools. 16 It could be that the materials that were 17 needed for that child to learn weren't there. 18 It could be that what the child should be 19 learning wasn't even being taught at all, 20 because people had assumed the child wasn't 21 capable of it. 22 For us to try to put into the grade the job 23 of explanation, rather than simply the job of 24 identifying what has happened, is to make a 25 terrible mistake. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 333 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: So it's back to that 2 correlation versus causation. 3 DR. HEFFERNAN: Absolutely. 4 I was so delighted -- other than I was 5 hoping to say that myself. Dr. Fisher took 6 that one. 7 The value of the grade from my point of 8 view absolutely depends on its specificity. It 9 should be a distinct measure of what the 10 children have learned. 11 It simply says to the people, not this is a 12 bad school, or that it's full of ineffective 13 teachers, or that they don't care. 14 It simply says, a high number of children 15 in this school didn't learn what we consider 16 important for them. 17 Now, let's roll our sleeves up and figure 18 out why. And will poverty be part of that? 19 Certainly. 20 But if we try to blend into that grade all 21 these others factors, it would -- here would be 22 the exact equivalent. When I see my child's 23 report card now, he gets an academic grade, a 24 grade for effort, and a grade for conduct. 25 Because they are distinct, they tell me ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 334 December 14, 1999 1 three very meaningful things about my child. 2 If we blend those into some overall blended 3 grade for the student, and someone were to 4 propose that, I now have something that is 5 quite useless. 6 I don't know whether the B or the C is 7 because he didn't master the material, is it 8 because he didn't try, is it because he was 9 acting up, et cetera, et cetera. 10 So the value of this grade depends on its 11 specificity. 12 The poverty factor. All I want to say on 13 that is it's one completing -- competing 14 explanation, among many others. I've already 15 touched on those. I won't repeat myself on 16 that. 17 It's absolutely wrong to single it out, 18 it's irrational, and I think it's immoral 19 because it takes a factor that the child has no 20 control over, and uses it, while exonerating 21 the adults involved with any -- any 22 responsibility or blame. 23 All of those things that they control, like 24 whether or not the child had books, or was even 25 taught what he was supposed to be taught, or ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 335 December 14, 1999 1 whether the teacher was there on a regular 2 basis. No one has proposed that those be 3 entered in as factors on the grade. 4 Finally, I want to say this, that I think 5 the primary purpose of the grade, and I believe 6 this was in the legislation, if not the 7 argument, is to help parents understand the 8 school. 9 It's -- it's to -- it's to help a parent 10 know simply this: There are or are not large 11 numbers of children at that school who are 12 meeting the State's expectations. 13 It's then up to the parents, with their 14 intelligence and their judgments, to make an 15 assessment of whether the reason for that is to 16 be laid at the door of those who are providing 17 the school, or at their own door of those who 18 are providing the children. 19 So thank you very much. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Patrick. 21 Ms. Calloway. 22 MS. CALLOWAY: Governor Bush, and 23 Cabinet -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'll see you tomorrow. 25 MS. CALLOWAY: You'll see me tomorrow at ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 336 December 14, 1999 1 8:00 o'clock in the morning. We've already 2 checked it out. You're on target. 3 I don't know if we'll do breakfast or not 4 yet though. We'll see -- I'll see when I get 5 back to school this afternoon. 6 Thank you for the opportunity. And I'm -- 7 there have been -- there's been lots said 8 today. Let me just say that I'm a very 9 optimistic person. 10 The last two years as an administrator, I 11 have been more optimistic than I've ever been 12 in my life, because I see hope. Most of us 13 believe that all children can learn. I believe 14 that. We formed our school with that as a 15 basic premise. And I think we've proven that. 16 Last year, we were the only secondary 17 school in this district to be a school of 18 recognition. But my school, according to many, 19 is an inner city school. We have a 32 percent 20 minority; we have all exceptionalities there; 21 we have two EH classes, emotionally handicapped 22 classes; community-based instruction classes; 23 some kind of every child we have at Raa Middle 24 School. And yet we work very hard to make it 25 happen. And this plan is helping us. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 337 December 14, 1999 1 It's giving us money -- and I'm going to 2 talk about money. That's been skipped over 3 sometimes today. But we've gotten money the 4 last two years, and I'm delighted with that. 5 Let me tell you how the system works, 6 I think. I'm not an A school. I'm a B school. 7 And the reason for that -- all of our subgroups 8 achieved what they were supposed to achieve, 9 but we were just a few small perc-- tenths of a 10 point over the State average in out-of-school 11 suspensions. 12 And when I got that, I thought, wait a 13 minute. I even talked to the Governor. I 14 said, wait a minute. We've got zapped for, 15 you know, making our kids behave. 16 But the more I thought about it, the more I 17 thought we need to look at this. So we formed 18 a committee, we brainstormed throughout the 19 community, throughout our -- our school. And 20 what we decided was, that does -- does need 21 attention. We looked at it. 22 We in-serviced our teachers, we explored 23 programs for kids in interventions, how to 24 handle stress and anger, all those kinds of 25 things we thought kids should learn, and we ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 338 December 14, 1999 1 were responsible for teaching. 2 And I could do that because I had the money 3 to pay for the staff development, and the 4 in-service. I bought the programs through the 5 money that I got through the school of 6 recognition money. 7 It has made differences already. We're 8 only one semester into the next year, but our 9 out-of-school suspension rate is lower now 10 because we are getting -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let me ask -- 12 MS. CALLOWAY: -- kids before they get to 13 the point. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Have you gotten squishy 15 though? Have you gotten soft because you're 16 worried about the -- 17 MS. CALLOWAY: No way. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: I didn't think so. 19 MS. CALLOWAY: No way. No way. 20 No. One of the things that I know that I'm 21 not the only person in the wor-- in the state 22 of -- that one thing made me think about 23 looking at the thing was -- at the -- the score 24 was that I knew that I was not the only law and 25 order choice and consequence principal in the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 339 December 14, 1999 1 state of Florida. There has to be other 2 schools that do that same thing. 3 But we zapped them right off the bat. 4 I mean, my parents sent me e-mail messages and 5 said, we don't care if you're a B school, as 6 long as you have law and order at Raa. And we 7 do have it there. 8 But there are kids who need attention 9 before they get to the point that they need to 10 be suspended. And we were using that maybe as 11 a crutch, and we don't have to do that. 12 Now, as far as what I got this year, I'm -- 13 all my subgroups came up, so I have $82,000, 14 wonderful dollars, and I will not be giving you 15 a check back today, because it's already been 16 spent on staff development and providing 17 resources for my kids. 18 I thank you for what you're doing for the 19 kids of the state of Florida. We wanted to do 20 this for a long time. And it's no surprise. 21 We've known for years that schools had grades, 22 you just were brave enough to say it for all of 23 us. 24 Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 340 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 341 December 14, 1999 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 158 through 340 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 27TH day of DECEMBER, 1999. 18 19 20 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR 100 Salem Court 21 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. T H E C A B I N E T S T A T E O F F L O R I D A Representing: REPORT: TEAM FLORIDA 2000 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION VOLUME III Pages 342 through 412 The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, December 14, 1999, commencing at approximately 9:17 a.m. Reported by: LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter Registered Merit Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 343 APPEARANCES: Representing the Florida Cabinet: JEB BUSH Governor BOB CRAWFORD Commissioner of Agriculture BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General BILL NELSON Treasurer TOM GALLAGHER Commissioner of Education * * * ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 344 December 14, 1999 I N D E X ITEM ACTION PAGE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson, Deputy Commissioner) 4 Continued Approved 410 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 412 * * * ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 345 December 14, 1999 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. PIERSON: We're going to close out the con 3 list. We have Patricia Lucas, Wayne Blanton, 4 Kathy Davis, Dr. Jim May. 5 I guess that's everybody. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: How about Anna Cowin? 7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: She's -- 8 MR. PIERSON: She's only -- 9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: She's -- 10 MR. PIERSON: She's coming. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: She's here. Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: She's here. 13 We're going to let her do cleanup. 14 MS. LUCAS: Good afternoon, Governor -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon. 16 MS. LUCAS: -- and Cabinet members. 17 I'm here speaking on behalf of 18 Superintendent Gene Denisar from Manatee County 19 Schools. 20 On behalf of Manatee County's 34,000 21 students and 2,000 teachers, I thank you for 22 this opportunity to share our thoughts on the 23 State system of school improvement and 24 accountability. 25 Since most of us believe that well reasoned ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 346 December 14, 1999 1 accountability is a giant step towards 2 educational excellence, our District welcomes 3 school accountability as an important tool to 4 help identify the progress of our students and 5 the effectiveness of the learning process. 6 We appreciate your willingness to receive 7 input from around the state through public 8 hearings, and to learn from the experiences of 9 the 67 counties in -- in managing the impact 10 the school grading process has had upon our 11 students, teachers, and administrators. 12 The negative effects that the school 13 grading process has had on the public opinion 14 of our schools are a concern for -- to us. 15 Our public believes that the quality of 16 education is superior in schools with grades of 17 A or B, and inferior in schools of lower 18 grades. 19 Clearly, some adjustments are in order. We 20 strongly support rule revisions as follows: 21 Revise the design so that we are measuring the 22 same students. There is compelling evidence 23 of the strength of longitudinal studies; focus 24 upon student gains, not student achievement. 25 Of our 26 elementary schools, our greatest ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 347 December 14, 1999 1 gains were achieved by three of our D rated 2 schools. 3 Reward the highest performing teachers, not 4 the highest performing schools. Avoid the 5 implementation of any school grading formula 6 which would lure or drive high performing 7 teachers out of low performing schools. 8 Finally, in any way possible, please help 9 us reduce the negative impact the school 10 grading process is having upon our students and 11 teachers. We pledge our full cooperation and 12 support of equitable accountability measures. 13 We encourage you to change those things in 14 the current process that do not promote equity 15 and fairness. 16 Sincerely, S. Gene Denisar, Superintendent. 17 Thank you. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 19 Good afternoon. 20 MR. BLANTON: Good afternoon. I'm 21 Wayne Blanton, Executive Director of the 22 Florida School Board Association. 23 I would like to start one of those 24 Tom Fisher introductions, if I could. I got my 25 Ph.D. at Florida State, I got my Master's at ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 348 December 14, 1999 1 Florida A&M, I got my undergraduate at 2 Florida State. 3 I want to say that, because I'm a native 4 Floridian, and I got educated in Florida, and I 5 could answer all those test scores that were -- 6 those test questions that were -- by the way. 7 I want everybody to know that for the record. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sixth grade. That's -- 9 MR. BLANTON: And I was able to get most of 10 those. And -- and I got a good education in 11 Florida. 12 And one of the things that we're missing 13 today, and we're going to miss in the future -- 14 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 15 MR. BLANTON: -- if we're not careful, is 16 we have to do what's right for all Floridians. 17 That's education, that the business community, 18 that's for the students we represent. And I 19 mean all of us. 20 And the last thing we should do is to turn 21 this in an us versus you or us versus them or 22 whatever it may be. 23 I'm glad to hear the public -- private 24 schools start to talk about being held more 25 accountable, and we're going to try and help ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 349 December 14, 1999 1 them with that. 2 And -- and they want to work with us. I'm 3 sure we're going to work with them. 4 But the grading system you're talking about 5 has to be fair. It has to be fair. Because, 6 Governor, if we're not careful, and we're not 7 fair with the test, and we're not fair with the 8 grading system, we will again disenfranchise a 9 large segment of our community when we should 10 not be doing that. We have to be very, very 11 careful with that. 12 We should allow opportunities for everyone. 13 We need to make sure that we do not turn this 14 into us versus them in any capacity. There's a 15 lot of things we need to do in that -- that 16 area. 17 I don't believe in grading schools. I know 18 the reason for grading schools. But what 19 I believe is is what every parent wants is to 20 grade their student. 21 And what we need to have in this state is a 22 system that can tell every parent at every 23 grade on every subject exactly where their -- 24 where they are being tested, exactly what their 25 test scores are, and exactly where their ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 350 December 14, 1999 1 strengths, and exactly where their weaknesses 2 are. 3 And until we get to that point, grading a 4 school is not going to mean a lot. We need to 5 be grading individual students, and following 6 them through their career. 7 That way we can strengthen our curriculum, 8 we can strengthen our students, and then we 9 will have true parent accountability, because 10 they will know exactly where their child is. 11 And I think we can do that as a group. 12 I think we can go to the Legislature and ask 13 for substantial dollars to do some of those 14 things. There are states that are doing that 15 right now. I have visited one of them. You 16 have a good friend in one of them that's doing 17 that right now. 18 You have a brother that's in one of them. 19 Texas is doing those kind of things. 20 We need student accountability on a 21 grade-by-grade level, on a test-by-test level, 22 if, in fact, in our state -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: You mean that with the FCAT 24 test? 25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sure. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 351 December 14, 1999 1 MR. BLANTON: It is -- when -- when we get 2 there. We're not there. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well -- 4 MR. BLANTON: We're -- we're not there. 5 We're not there. We're trying to get there -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Those three -- 7 MR. BLANTON: -- and I compliment you -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's not -- 9 MR. BLANTON: -- on that. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it's not trying. 11 It's -- it's a done deal -- 12 MR. BLANTON: We should get there -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- in grades 3 through 10. 14 MR. BLANTON: -- in two or three or 15 four years. I believe when you -- when you 16 design -- when you design all the tests, and 17 you have all the test scores for each 18 individual student, how they're testing out, 19 and you can report that back directly to each 20 parent, grading of schools is not a big issue 21 anymore. 22 And I think that's one of the things we 23 have to -- we have to look at. Because 24 currently right now, we have A schools that 25 have F students in some of them, we have F ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 352 December 14, 1999 1 schools that have A students in there. 2 And we need to make sure that the parent 3 accountability portion of this is the strongest 4 thing we have in there. And I think we can do 5 that by working together. 6 And I just compliment you on what you're 7 trying to do. But I do want to say that -- 8 that there's a lot of problems in a program 9 this large. Remember what's happening in 10 Florida. Remember how big we are. 11 We employ -- just us -- employed 12 260,000 employees. We have 2.5 million 13 students showing up every day. What you're 14 doing here today, and what we're going to do in 15 the next couple of years impacts millions and 16 millions of parents. 17 And we have to make sure those parents get 18 the right information on their students, on 19 their children. And we have to assure them, 20 under any circumstance, that what we give them 21 is fair. 22 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 23 MR. BLANTON: Thank you. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 25 Good afternoon. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 353 December 14, 1999 1 MS. DAVIS: Good afternoon. And I am one 2 of those parents. 3 I'm Kathy Davis from Escambia County, 4 Florida. And as a parent of children in our 5 priv-- public and private school systems, I am 6 deeply concerned about the effects of this 7 plan. 8 It is time for us to look at the impact at 9 the local level. And there are some very 10 serious changes that need to be made to the 11 plan. Too much focus is being placed on 12 testing, rather than learning. 13 For example, during his fourth grade year, 14 my youngest child will take the FCAT reading, 15 the FCAT writing, the Stanford 9, the FCAT 16 field testing. 17 And my question to you is: How much time 18 is left for my child to learn, when this 19 inordinate amount of time is spent preparing 20 for these high stakes tests that are producing 21 very high levels of anxiety in our children? 22 While accountability is a very realistic 23 goal of education, let's look at the actual 24 effects. The FCAT introduced the testing of an 25 entirely new level of learning, that of applied ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 354 December 14, 1999 1 knowledge. 2 While this is a very worthwhile goal, our 3 students were only given a few short years to 4 transform to this level before they were being 5 graded by the A+ plan. Teachers have been 6 diligently working to adjust to the changes 7 needed for this higher level. 8 But it's unrealistic to expect that one or 9 two years of adjusted curriculum will transform 10 the results of many years of instruction that 11 have been geared toward multiple choice type 12 questions. 13 The FCAT is not the problem. The problem 14 is that the measurement device is being changed 15 at the same point in time that our schools are 16 being graded, and determinations are being made 17 with respect to their financial funding, and 18 their reputations. 19 This serves no purpose, except to 20 negatively impact the morale of our teachers 21 and our students. 22 I'm also concerned about the inaccurate 23 measurement of different groups of children. 24 Instead of tracking my child's individual 25 progress, his school is being graded by ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 355 December 14, 1999 1 comparing his present group with that of a 2 completely different group of students from the 3 prior year. 4 Without taking into account any of the 5 variables even associated with the voucher 6 program, it's unrealistic for us to expect a 7 sampling of one fourth grade class to be the 8 same from one year to the next. 9 How can a school's success be determined by 10 using different samples in the measurement 11 comparison? 12 The A+ plan does not take into 13 consideration many of the external factors that 14 influence the result of this testing. 15 If we want to -- to track the progress of 16 our schools, then what we need to do is take 17 the same class and pre- and post-test them on a 18 regular schedule. The desired result of 19 accurately measuring growth within the same 20 sample would then be achieved. 21 Testing the same class at the end of each 22 grade is another viable alternative. 23 Why is it necessary to attach a grade to 24 the school, especially so early in the 25 implementation of this plan? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 356 December 14, 1999 1 Is the goal to measure the growth of our 2 children, or is it to produce a competitive 3 atmosphere that ultimately is producing 4 unreasonable pressure in our children, and 5 demoralizing our teachers. 6 Businesses recognize the value of having 7 satisfied employees as it relates to 8 productivity. On a regular basis, I see the 9 dedicated work of the teachers and the need for 10 them to be compensated for the level of the 11 expertise being required of them, rather than 12 rating them with unjust measurements of their 13 value. 14 Is it plausible to believe that the 15 teachers in the lower performing schools will 16 be better teachers if they are placed in a 17 competitive, comparative situation? 18 That belief is demoralizing to anyone who 19 knows what it takes to be a teacher. The 20 scores are lower in the D and F schools because 21 of external factors. External factors such as 22 poverty, poor nutrition, lack of parental 23 involvement, and lack of preschool stimulation. 24 Sending students with low performance to 25 other schools will not solve the problem, it ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 357 December 14, 1999 1 will only serve to disburse the problems 2 throughout your school system. 3 Prior to my -- the first of my three 4 children being born 16 years ago, I was a 5 teacher in the Florida public school system, 6 with plans of returning to the classroom when 7 they became older. 8 In the meantime, I've been active in all of 9 their classrooms. But I do not feel that I 10 would be able to effectively teach in the 11 environment that has been developed as a result 12 of the A+ plan. 13 Teachers are being unfairly judged, and the 14 thought of their salaries being connected to an 15 unjust grading system is absurd. 16 The morale of teachers is the lowest that 17 I've ever witnessed, regardless of the plan 18 that is put into place, if we do not take care 19 of our teachers, our schools will not be 20 successful. 21 We all want the same thing. We all want 22 the same things for our school. But it's 23 mandatory that we take a second look at the 24 effects of this plan. 25 Let's get back to meeting the educational ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 358 December 14, 1999 1 needs of our children. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much for 3 coming. 4 MS. DAVIS: Thank you. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. May, welcome back. 6 DR. MAY: I'm the one you've been waiting 7 for, I think. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, yeah. 9 DR. MAY: Well, by that I mean, I'm the 10 last one, Governor, and -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, no. There's one more, 12 I think. 13 DR. MAY: Oh, there is. Okay. 14 Well, Honorable Governor, and -- and 15 Cabinet, thank you so much. I really would 16 like to begin -- 17 My name is Jim May, I'm the Superintendent 18 from Escambia County schools. I also am the 19 only school system in the county that had two 20 schools that were graded F two years in a row 21 that are eligible for the voucher program. 22 I want to begin though by complimenting 23 you, first of all, on listening. And I -- and 24 I do mean that, gentlemen. 25 You -- you really have paid attention, you ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 359 December 14, 1999 1 really have tried to give every speaker an 2 opportunity to come before you and voice their 3 concerns and voice their feeling. 4 And I want you to know, I admire that. 5 That truly is what public service is about. 6 And I thank you for that. And that is not an 7 easy thing for you to do. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: You mean, you guys don't do 9 that at the School Board in Escambia County? 10 DR. MAY: I will tell you this: Our 11 School Board limits speakers to 2 minutes. And 12 I am -- now, don't take that for a suggestion, 13 please. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We would like you 15 to follow your School Board's -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: I just -- 17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- good lead. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- my fellow Cabinet 19 members might -- 20 DR. MAY: However, I do mean that 21 sincerely. Thank you so much for the kind of 22 men you have been today. And I do appreciate 23 it. 24 I want to ask you this: I think we have 25 some beliefs in common, and if you disagree ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 360 December 14, 1999 1 with any of these, please let me know 2 immediately. 3 I believe our first belief that we have in 4 common is that you want what's best for 5 Florida's children. 6 Secondly, I believe you all feel that all 7 students can learn. 8 Third, we want, and accept, that there must 9 be accountability for public education in the 10 state of Florida. 11 Do we have any disagreement on that at all? 12 I didn't think we would. 13 I would also like to ask you what is your 14 aim. And I really believe it's important for 15 any group to have developed an aim for whatever 16 they're trying to accomplish. 17 I do believe after having had the 18 opportunity to talk with many of you, that your 19 aim is to ensure that every child receives a 20 year's worth of learning for a year of 21 schooling. 22 Am I -- am I inaccurate at all in that aim? 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: I would add particularly 24 the bottom 25 percentile. 25 DR. MAY: Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 361 December 14, 1999 1 And I support that 100 percent, Governor, 2 and thank you for saying that. And I mean that 3 to you sincerely. 4 You know, you've heard from parents, and 5 you've heard from a lot of individuals. But I 6 want to just talk to you about something I 7 heard Mr. Blanton mention briefly, and that is 8 the idea of fairness. 9 Is everything that we're doing fair to 10 students? And they are our number one 11 customer, and I hope we never lose sight of 12 that. 13 Is everything that we're doing fair to 14 parents, is everything that we're doing fair to 15 teachers, is it fair to principals, is it fair 16 to every citizen in the state of Florida? 17 Do all students start school with the same 18 readiness level? In answering that question, I 19 would do very little more than referring you -- 20 and I think Mr. Pettis has a copy that I'd like 21 to just hand to you of the results of the 22 A+ grading system in terms of distribution 23 based on free and reduced lunch. 24 In handing you this distribution package, I 25 want to answer the question: Do all students ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 362 December 14, 1999 1 start school with the same readiness level? 2 And by the way, I will not stand here and 3 make any excuses, because that's not what we're 4 about. We're about success for all students, 5 and I believe you are, too. 6 But if you look at this distribution 7 package, you will find, 80 percent of all A and 8 B schools were above the State average for free 9 and reduced lunches -- or by the way, by above, 10 I mean they had less than the 43 percent State 11 average for free and reduced lunches. 12 If you go for those schools that were above 13 the 43 percent for free and reduced lunches, 14 that would be in the far right-hand corner at 15 the bottom, you'll notice 96 percent of all F 16 schools would be included in that group. They 17 were below the State average. 18 Why do I make that point? Because I do 19 believe that not every child starts at the same 20 readiness level. And you don't have to go far 21 to prove that. 22 What I want to ask you to do is what I hope 23 is somewhat of a compromise, because it does 24 meet your aim, and it meets every aim that I've 25 heard here today. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 363 December 14, 1999 1 What about us holding every school 2 accountable for every child, and demand that 3 they have a year's worth of learning for a 4 year's worth of schooling? 5 That's what I ask you to do. Let us test 6 every child -- 7 Let me give you two examples of why I bring 8 this up now. We have the only two failing 9 schools in the state of Florida that have done 10 that two years in a row. 11 One of those schools had NCE gains of 2 -- 12 and those of you that know much about testing, 13 like Mr. Fisher -- Dr. Fischer back there will 14 tell you, that's a pretty incredible gain. 15 The other of those failing schools had NCE 16 gains of 4. That's almost unheard of. I would 17 challenge how many A schools in the state of 18 Florida had NCE gains of 4, because I don't 19 think they did. 20 So what I am saying to you is, those 21 students didn't just have a year of progress at 22 those two failing schools, they had 1.3 years 23 of progress, and yet they're still labeled 24 failing. 25 Doesn't mean we don't want to be held ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 364 December 14, 1999 1 accountable. I'm just asking: Is that fair? 2 If that's not acceptable, there are some 3 other factors that we could use. I want to end 4 with just a few suggestions, and -- and -- and 5 I do think that you've been so tolerant and so 6 patient in listening to each and every one of 7 us today, and I commend you again. 8 But I would like to hand out to you some 9 other pieces of paper. One, rather than for me 10 to stand up here and say this, I'm going to ask 11 Gene Pettis -- 12 MR. PETTIS: I did them all. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think we already did it. 14 DR. MAY: You've already handed this out. 15 Okay. There are some suggestions to 16 amending the State Board of Education rule, 17 which we've all been discussing. There is a 18 synopsis, which I think you might find very 19 handy when you want to look at the changes as 20 they occur from year-to-year. And we 21 appreciate our data people putting that 22 together, and I think that you'll find that 23 quite useful for yourselves. 24 And finally, there's an errata sheet to 25 help correct just some errors in language, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 365 December 14, 1999 1 and -- and perhaps bring about some more 2 clarity that would help, for all of us to 3 understand what's happening. 4 I want to end with this: As long as you 5 have so many laws and lawmakers, there probably 6 will be rules that seem inherently unfair to 7 some of us. And that's not really a problem to 8 me, or to anyone else. 9 Not doing something about that unfairness 10 does become a problem. 11 I want all of us to really examine the 12 factor that I've kind of stressed today, not 13 about poverty, not about anything else, but 14 about do all children start with the same 15 readiness level? 16 And I think that anybody that you ask would 17 say, no. It's not about making excuses. 18 I believe all students can learn. 19 All that we ask of you today is correct the 20 inequities. It's not really that complicated. 21 It's not something that we have to develop this 22 elaborate plan that goes into all kinds of 23 categories that probably you need a Ph.D. to 24 understand. 25 It can be about this: Let us measure every ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 366 December 14, 1999 1 child's progress, and every school, and see if 2 they make a year's worth of progress for a 3 year's worth of school. And I beg you, let 4 that be the measure of success. 5 Thank you so much for letting me speak to 6 you today. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, 8 Mr. Superintendent. 9 Now we're getting near the end, I think, 10 aren't we? 11 MR. PIERSON: The final three -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, three. 13 MR. PIERSON: -- final three speakers in 14 this order: Janet -- Janice Gilley -- 15 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.) 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: We'll all be here, General. 17 MR. PIERSON: -- Marva Collins, and 18 Senator Anna Cowin. 19 MS. GILLEY: Well, I had no idea when I got 20 up at 4:00 a.m., it would take this long to get 21 up here. 22 I come to you -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: How's your child? 24 MS. GILLEY: Pardon me? 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: How's your baby? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 367 December 14, 1999 1 MS. GILLEY: Just wonderful. Just 2 wonderful. I did get to kiss him good-bye this 3 morning. 4 I come to you today -- get to see my 5 neighbor. Superintendent May's one of my 6 neighbors in the rural community that we live 7 in. 8 I come to you today as a -- as a resident 9 of Escambia County, a lifetime Floridian. I 10 come to you as a taxpaying citizen, I come to 11 you as a small business employer. 12 I also come to you as a -- as someone who 13 has had the opportunity to sit on a 14 school board; and I also come to you as the 15 mother of two beautiful babies, even if I do 16 say so myself. I have pictures. 17 I would like to tell you that there are -- 18 our community -- I come from a community where 19 there are challenges. Pensacola's been 20 challenging St. Augustine for centuries as to 21 which one of us was the first settlement. 22 We're the cradle of naval aviation where 23 young men and women are trained every day to 24 protect our country around the world. We're 25 the model for welfare reform across the nation. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 368 December 14, 1999 1 We have also -- we are looking for new and 2 innovative ways to provide services to the 3 developmentally disabled. We're one day going 4 to be a good front porch Florida community. 5 Now, I want to tell you that some of our 6 other challenges are -- 7 (Comptroller Milligan entered the room.) 8 MS. GILLEY: -- we had two hurricanes in 9 one year. That's devastating to a community. 10 But there have been very few challenges 11 that have affected our community as education 12 reform has affected our community. 13 What we have seen in our community is, no 14 matter where you are, whether it's at the 15 grocery store -- I get stopped at the grocery 16 store. Whether it's in business meetings, 17 whether it's at your Rotary luncheon, whether 18 it's at your -- whether it's at your 19 women's club, dinner with friends, or a family 20 dinner on Sunday afternoon, the issue always 21 comes around to education. 22 In the past, those discussions have been, 23 education is important, we need to do something 24 about it. Well, let me tell you what it is 25 today. Today it is, education's important, and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 369 December 14, 1999 1 we're all going to do something about it in our 2 community. 3 As a School Board member, I had the 4 opportunity to tour 14 different schools in our 5 community. What I saw in those schools were 6 teachers working hard, students working harder, 7 parents who were dedicated to making sure that 8 that community and that school was a success. 9 The principals are very, very dedicated and 10 very hard. They pull everything together. 11 There is no doubt in my mind that a principal 12 has one of the most difficult jobs in the 13 country. 14 I also want to tell you what else I saw. I 15 saw community organizations and businesses who 16 have come into those schools, not just one and 17 two at a time, by the dozens; not just one and 18 two employees at a time, but as many as 50 and 19 60 employees. 20 People ask me, they say, what can we do to 21 be involved? I tell them, one -- for example, 22 one of my friends has an engineering firm. I 23 said, you have engineers proficient in math, 24 let your employees go tutor. They're letting 25 their employees take time to go tutor math, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 370 December 14, 1999 1 students that need that. 2 Business partnerships in Escambia County no 3 longer mean a pizza party for students who 4 have -- who have excelled somewhere. They mean 5 active participation, not one -- one day a 6 week, but every day a week. 7 Our community has -- has risen to the 8 challenge, and we are -- the community 9 awareness has been phenomenal. 10 I think one of the things that I want to 11 make sure that's -- that's expressed here is we 12 need to talk about facts and not fiction. 13 The facts are -- these are not my numbers. 14 These are numbers from our junior college -- 15 47 percent of the students that graduate from 16 our high schools need some form of remediation 17 when they go to junior college. 18 We can argue about what type of certificate 19 they receive, or what type of -- what type of 20 high school edu-- diploma they receive. But 21 the bottom line is, they need some form of 22 remediation. 23 And Department of Education, their numbers 24 are that we have dropout rates of 35 percent. 25 I don't think those numbers are acceptable to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 371 December 14, 1999 1 anyone in our community. We want to make 2 changes. 3 Also, I want you to know that, when 4 education reform came to Escambia County, not 5 one teacher has been fired in Escambia County 6 because of education reform. Remember that. 7 Also I want you to know that those two 8 failing schools received a phenomenal amount of 9 attention, fiduciarily, as a responsibility 10 from the Board. And the other seven whose 11 names you don't know also received that kind of 12 support. 13 You can name the two that you've heard 14 about, but there are seven others that you 15 can't name. 16 I also want to tell you that the best and 17 the brightest -- 18 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 19 room.) 20 MS. GILLEY: -- students didn't flee. 21 Opportunities were provided, it was a mixed bag 22 of students who took advantage of those 23 opportunities. 24 I -- I wish I had more factual information. 25 But I can tell you from all of the studying ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 372 December 14, 1999 1 that I have done from across the country, 2 poverty does not equal failure. 3 In Escambia County, poverty equals 4 opportunity. People are going and being active 5 participants in those schools. 6 Now, I also want to tell you one final 7 thing. It doesn't matter how I feel, it 8 doesn't matter how you feel, it doesn't matter 9 how any other adult feels about this particular 10 rule. 11 We've all exited the public education 12 system. This rule is about students. This 13 rule is about student's achievements and what 14 their successes are, where there is room for 15 improvement, and where there is need for 16 improvement. This rule is about their future. 17 You and I are tested every day. Every day 18 we're tested. When we get in our car and 19 drive, can we follow the proper driving rules? 20 If we don't, we get a ticket. That's -- that's 21 elementary. 22 I'm -- I'm tested. Can I grammatically and 23 properly prepare correspondence. In my 24 small -- in my husband's company, in our small 25 business, simple mathematics. Can an employee ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 373 December 14, 1999 1 calculate percentage of shipping, whether it's 2 from Pensacola to Atlanta, Georgia; Canada; 3 Europe; or California. Simple mathematics. 4 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 5 room.) 6 MS. GILLEY: If those students fail those 7 tests, ladies and gentlemen, they don't succeed 8 in life. And none of us will be standing there 9 with them when they make those failures. 10 Now, I want to tell you, education reform 11 is not easy, and it's not a panacea. But the 12 sky has not fallen in Escambia County as of the 13 time I left this morning. 14 I'm very passionate about this issue, and I 15 hope all of you will favorably consider this 16 rule. It's very important to our future, and 17 it's very important to the future of our 18 children. 19 And I do have one more comment I must make. 20 I don't have a law degree -- it would have been 21 nice to have had one. But -- 22 Well, that's probably good. 23 -- I don't have a CPA degree, and I don't 24 have a medical degree. 25 But I do know that when you go and you ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 374 December 14, 1999 1 pursue those activities, there is a minimum 2 standard that you must meet to be accepted as a 3 lawyer, to be accepted as a doctor, and to be 4 accepted as a CPA. 5 And if you don't meet that minimum 6 standard, you don't get those designations. So 7 I think that, when we talk about people making 8 minimum standards, there are minimum standards 9 that have to be met for the rest of your life. 10 Thank you very much for your attention, and 11 I do hope you will favorably consider this 12 rule. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Janice. 14 I'm glad that the 2-minute rule didn't 15 apply to you when you're at the Escambia County 16 School Board. 17 Who's next? 18 MR. PIERSON: Marva Collins. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Marva Collins. 20 Welcome. What an honor to have you here. 21 MS. COLLINS: I suppose I must have sent 22 out the wrong karma or something. Every touse 23 that I endeavor is always the most difficult. 24 So since I'm the last, that means I must 25 somehow hold the attention of the audience. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 375 December 14, 1999 1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think you'll be able to 2 do that. I'm pretty sure. 3 MS. COLLINS: And, Governor Bush, I'd like 4 to say to you that our -- if there are anything 5 I say about what can happen, you can use your 6 parents as references. They have visited our 7 school. Okay. 8 I think I've heard the word poverty here 9 today more than I ever have in a lifetime. I 10 still cannot understand what poverty has to do 11 with the brain. And I often think of 12 Abraham Lincoln, who at fourteen, had yet not 13 learned to read. 14 And yet if he were in today's school 15 system, he never would have had the opportunity 16 to become President of the United States. 17 I think it's about exposure, or I'm -- also 18 it's a matter of personal pride. Having grown 19 up in Atmore, Alabama, a very, very rural town. 20 So rural that you have to give some proximity 21 as to where it is, and that's near Pensacola, 22 Florida, at a time when black kids had no 23 libraries, there were no private schools, or my 24 one sister and I came from a very nutured home. 25 My parents, grandparents, made a very, very ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 376 December 14, 1999 1 good living. 2 But are -- in order to obtain a book, I 3 either -- either had to get them through mail 4 order or travel all the way to Pensacola or 5 Mobile just to purchase a book. 6 We had teachers who only had a tenth grade 7 education, or most of the kids -- I was very 8 fortunate. I'm 14 years older than my sister. 9 I was tenth grade in high school when my one 10 sister was born. 11 But usually sometimes I was the only kid in 12 school, because the other kids had to pick all 13 of the cotton before they could come to school. 14 But when they did arrive at school, every 15 teacher -- I never remember having one teacher 16 who had the attitude that the kind of homes 17 some of those kids came from had something to 18 do with what they could achieve. 19 And I think again -- I call it stepping 20 outside the square. To me it would be a 21 personal affront to have someone set standards 22 for me. Usually other people's standards are 23 not good enough for me. 24 I am always a bit embarrassed that if I 25 worked on a job, or -- and if I was due there ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 377 December 14, 1999 1 at 9:00 o'clock, I was always there by 7:30, 2 8:00 o'clock. It didn't make me very popular 3 with the other employees. 4 I always took it as a personal affront if I 5 had to be warned; or if I was typing a report; 6 or I remember coming from our -- Alabama, I 7 went to Chicago, and I talked my way into a 8 medical secretary job. 9 And I had never heard a medical term in my 10 life. But when I'd get to a word that I 11 couldn't spell, I would call the medical 12 association, made friends with the secretary 13 there, play the machine over and over until she 14 heard the words and told me how to spell it. 15 I never got one rewrite back again. It's 16 taken the personal pride and what we do, or the 17 schools in Quincy have done very, very well 18 here, just doing half of what I've asked them 19 to do. 20 Or -- children are phenomenal -- children 21 and animals, I say, really know when people are 22 real. 23 Or two weeks ago, I was at Quincy, and I 24 remember two or three of the young lads peeking 25 in the room, and then they would run. Well, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 378 December 14, 1999 1 that's what children are supposed to do. 2 That's what young people -- or, I mean, that's 3 their behavior. 4 And I stopped the teacher training seminar 5 and actually chased these kids down until I 6 found them. And the teachers kind of thought, 7 well, you know, you should continue the 8 seminar. But what you see in me is who I am. 9 I chased these kids down, and I said, my 10 wonderful bright ones, because you're so 11 wonderful, a small peek is not enough. 12 So I want you to come in the full -- in the 13 room so you can have a full view. So they sat 14 and they participated -- I involved them in the 15 teacher training sessions. 16 Every one of these kids when I left, they 17 were hanging their heads from the buses, and 18 they said, we love you, Mrs. Collins, are you 19 going to come back? 20 You know, I think somehow I worry about us 21 as Americans. We whine, we complain. The 22 greater the standards, the more unfair 23 something is for me, it really empowers me to 24 excellence. 25 I remember speaking to 30,000 people at the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 379 December 14, 1999 1 Astrodome in Indianapolis in the morning; and 2 flying out to Boston, speaking to 20,000 in the 3 afternoon. 4 And there are times when people will tell 5 my husband one word -- my southern accent comes 6 out in some words. They will tell my husband 7 one word that I've misenunciated. 8 But again, we can either get anger -- 9 angry, we can take a negative attitude, or I 10 really feel that the higher the standards, the 11 more -- the greater it empowers me. 12 How we see the problem is really the 13 problem. I'm very worried about the standards 14 of Americans. 15 I collect old textbooks, and we've actually 16 recitivated in the name of progress. In 1890, 17 you should see the handwriting in some of the 18 textbooks, the careful calligraphy, the careful 19 handwriting. 20 Children in 1818 -- I have a second grade 21 reader where children read Oliver Goldsmith, 22 William Shakespeare, or Fyodor Dostoyevsky, 23 Emerson, Thoreau, the very same things today we 24 say are not age appropriate. 25 Our children are saying to us as ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 380 December 14, 1999 1 cacophonously as they can, that enough is too 2 much, their behavior. I find it fascinating 3 that we say children cannot learn certain 4 facts. 5 Watch a three or four year old handle a 6 computer. Why is it then they turn to idiots 7 when they come to school? 8 Or watch a three or four year old that will 9 watch television, and do a Hopi Indian dance 10 backing out of the room to keep from using the 11 washroom. 12 Why is it that television holds their 13 interests, and they're so bored when they come 14 to school? 15 Whenever I teach a class -- and give me any 16 school, your worst achieving schools here in 17 the worst areas, the greatest problems, and I 18 will do the same thing I did with public 19 schools in Chicago. They have -- there they 20 are -- they are actually putting schools on 21 probation, and they're being taken over by the 22 State. 23 At least here, you are primarily right now 24 just being graded. Things could always be 25 worse. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 381 December 14, 1999 1 I took over two of the lowest achieving 2 public schools there, brought those schools off 3 probation in just three months. 4 It can be done, I think again, as I say, we 5 must once again, ourselves return to 6 excellence. The word responsible means able to 7 respond. 8 I would be truly embarrassed to have 9 someone walk in and monitor my school as an 10 F school. We have a school in the inner city 11 of Chicago, we will be beginning a high school 12 in our -- February of the coming millennium. 13 It -- really we have -- keeping true to the 14 lesson in Plato's republic, which was the first 15 noble lie. 16 Our children believe that every child is an 17 achiever. I remember the police once made a 18 mistake and came to our school. 19 And one little seven year old walked up to 20 him and said, excuse me, Officer, sir, but here 21 we are self-generated, self-motivated, and 22 self-propelled. You must have the wrong 23 address. 24 We have a school in the inner city where 25 children -- we've never had a substitute ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 382 December 14, 1999 1 teacher. Our children keep themselves. 2 Imagine that, if you can. 3 Our entire school is monitored on a 4 discipline where children choose. At one of 5 the schools here, they learn from 6 choices/consequences. 7 We teach children to think critically, 8 analytically, and they can pass any test. 9 I really think the test here is a very 10 simple one. Or -- ours are much, much more 11 difficult. Or we get the law exam from 12 Princeton and Harvard and Yale and Dartmouth, 13 and we let our sixth and seventh graders 14 practice on those tests. 15 We get the medical exams. You know, no 16 one's dead. If they don't do well, I mean, 17 it's a positive enterprise. 18 Our children are given play money in each 19 of the math classes for the correct answers, 20 whatever, and we actually buy stock from the 21 Wall Street Journal and Barron's. Our children 22 have learned to get positive attention. 23 Or I remember your dad had a Board meeting 24 down in Florida, and I was the only one that 25 took a young man to the Board meeting. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 383 December 14, 1999 1 So President Bush is sitting here, and 2 here's this little seven year old, single 3 family home, welfare mother, sitting in front 4 of the President. 5 And or -- President Bush said to him, you 6 have impeccable manners. I see you do this 7 often. 8 And Jason said, Mr. President, sir, if I 9 didn't do this on a frequent basis, I perhaps 10 would shuffle off my mortal coil, wouldn't I? 11 So going back to the lessons from 12 Shakespeare. So I think again what we -- 13 I think the indomitable spirit, I -- I look at 14 what we miss. 15 I decide what I want my students to be. 16 They are each pieces of me. I have many Marvas 17 where -- there are girls. I decide the kind of 18 mind my students are going to have, and they 19 are pieces of me. They are mirrored by who I 20 am. I think we lose the power. 21 And to me as a teacher, that is just 22 phenomenal, that I have little kids running all 23 over the west side of Chicago, or saying -- or 24 the Canterbury Tales -- Chaucer's, The 25 Canterbury Tales in old English. Memorizing ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 384 December 14, 1999 1 one great poem every week, reciting the great 2 lines in Latin. We begin to teach children 3 Latin in third grade. 4 Or if you think the expectations here are 5 high, I don't think any of you would want to 6 work in our school. 7 Again, we stand at the door each morning, 8 we bond with every child. 9 If I ever have to put equipment in the 10 school to see whether children have weapons, I 11 will close the doors. 12 We stand at the door each morning, we bond 13 with each child, we greet each child. 14 Before each of those 200 students can leave 15 every evening, they must show us what they have 16 accomplished. They have -- the little folders 17 are all ready. That's their ticket out of 18 there. 19 They must have those folders ready to show 20 us what they have accomplished. 21 We say to our students, you bring a 22 credit card to this school each day and we 23 stamp it. We said, would you go to the 24 merchant and say, Mr. Merchant, stamp my 25 credit card. I don't want any merchandise, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 385 December 14, 1999 1 just stamp the card. 2 Every child learns that, without them, 3 there would be no us. I think we need to stop 4 and think, they purchase our cars, they 5 purchase our homes. 6 Right now, each of my three children get 7 three years to run the school, so I'll see 8 which child I need to yank out while I'm still 9 here on earth. They have done a phenomenal 10 job. It's that pride: Mom, your name is on 11 the school. 12 It's that personal pride of carrying on 13 that family legacy. Our children take personal 14 great pride. Imagine a group of second graders 15 keeping themselves. 16 We discipline our children with very simple 17 methods. I think we've complicated things, and 18 I'm going to repeat again, Ralph Waldo Emerson 19 was right. 20 We have thousands of people from all over 21 the world who come to see what I call plain, 22 common sense. I decide what our students will 23 be. It's -- you can use excuses, but they're 24 parents. 25 And then I must ask who educated the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 386 December 14, 1999 1 parents? We as a system have messed up the 2 parents, and now we're messing up the kids. So 3 it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. 4 We're either willing to bridge the gap. 5 There's a space between my hands. I either can 6 reach over and pull a child over, or they're 7 going to fall in the cracks. 8 So, again, I decide that every child will 9 be a winner, every -- those of you who might 10 have seen the 60 Minutes follow-up after 11 17 years, every one of our students go on to 12 college. We've never had a police report. 13 Our children are -- disagree the way most 14 children will, but they've learned to settle 15 those in a civil, humane, amicable way. 16 Now, we can keep using excuses. This isn't 17 about the edicts that's in place here. It's 18 about us as a nation. 19 I'm begging you to give to yourselves this 20 holiday the greatest gift -- I tell everyone, 21 don't give me anything for Christmas that I 22 can't eat, because my greatest gift to me has 23 been what I have done for children. 24 The greatest gift to me was to see these 25 bus loads of kids in Quincy yelling from -- the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 387 December 14, 1999 1 same kids I had chased and brought back into 2 the library -- yelling, I love you, 3 Mrs. Collins. 4 The greatest gift that has been given to me 5 is the black kids that are doctors at 6 Presbyterian St. Lukes in Chicago; the letters 7 that I get from young men in prison saying, if 8 I'd had a teacher like you, I would not be 9 here; the letters and the praises that I get 10 from young people. 11 Those are gifts that can't be purchased, 12 they can't be purchased from Tiffany's, they 13 can't be put on a credit card. 14 We as Americans are seeking -- we call them 15 holidays. I call them h-o-l-l-o-w days, or 16 h-o-l-l-e-r days. 17 We are going to find peace, we're going to 18 find the power that we innately have as 19 Americans when we stop the whining, when we 20 stop having someone put rules on us. 21 You know, my school would be an A+ school 22 because that's what I deserve. Once we 23 internalize that excellence is my birthright -- 24 I say to every student that comes to my school, 25 failure is not one of your choices here, you're ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 388 December 14, 1999 1 going to learn, or you're going to die. Now, 2 take your choice. 3 Because when they fail -- when you walk 4 into that school, you don't know who their 5 parents are. But you know that my name is on 6 that building. It says Marva Collins 7 Preparatory School. You don't know their 8 parents. 9 But when you walk in that classroom, the 10 way our children speak, just standard English. 11 All across America, I hear teachers say, 12 good morning, John, how are you? The kid looks 13 at the floor, and say, okay. 14 Our children give you the eye contact and 15 say, I am fine, thank you, Mrs. Collins. And 16 you? 17 It's speaking in complete sentences, 18 speaking in standard English. It is a sin of 19 omission to lower the standards for me. 20 I don't want anyone doing anything ever for 21 me because I'm a woman; because I am a black 22 woman; because I'm from Atmore, Alabama. 23 I tell the children, weep and you weep 24 alone for the sad old earth has troubles of its 25 own. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 389 December 14, 1999 1 To hear a little three or four year old 2 say, we don't give pity parties here. To hear 3 a little new three year old say to a four year 4 old who's weeping about a pencil, he has my 5 pencil. The three year old looks at that new 6 students, and say, in this school, we are here 7 to own the pencil company. We don't worry 8 about one pencil. 9 You see, the way we see the problem -- it's 10 a problem. We can't believe that that can 11 happen without discipline, common sense. 12 Now, how do we discipline our children? 13 There's no screaming, yelling, sitting kids in 14 corners. 15 I say to children, see this sheet of paper? 16 It's a nice, clean sheet of paper. Then I take 17 that paper and I do this. 18 And I hang it -- that doesn't look nice 19 decoratively. Whenever they get a little loud, 20 I -- all I do is point to that, and they go, 21 bad choice. 22 Now, as they walk the hallways, they say to 23 each other -- they monitor each other. When 24 one is out of line, they'll say, not a great 25 idea. Bad choice. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 390 December 14, 1999 1 I said to the teachers at one of the 2 schools in Quincy, today children -- one of the 3 really unruly classrooms, you will show your 4 teach-- you will take your teacher to lunch. 5 The teacher looked at me in disbelief. 6 I says, the teacher will follow you. You 7 will go first. 8 Now, in order for them to go first, I says, 9 you remember now, you're modeling behavior for 10 your teacher. If you misbehave, your teacher 11 will misbehave -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Ms. Collins, can we -- can 13 you close it down? 14 MS. COLLINS: The -- so the children did -- 15 I mean, as they say, they will do -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Get in trouble. 17 MS. COLLINS: -- whatever we ask. 18 And I'm going to say again: While we are 19 debating about the rule that's here, let us 20 look at us, and do it because it's right to do 21 it, do it because it's excellent to do it, and 22 not because someone forced us to do it. 23 To do less than that would truly be a sin 24 of omission. 25 Okay. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 391 December 14, 1999 1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you so much. 3 SENATOR COWIN: It's great to stand. 4 Let me tell you, you are all much better 5 than a lot of senators, sitting and listening. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Senator Cowins (sic), I 7 know you've been waiting for a long time, but 8 if you could be very brief, I would -- I'll 9 give you a huge hug. Or -- or I won't hug you, 10 depending on which one you want. 11 SENATOR COWIN: The bottom line is that the 12 rule that we have here complies with the 13 intent, the spirit, and everything in the law 14 that the Legislature had. 15 I want to mention a -- four things that 16 I -- well, a few more -- that have -- that are 17 key in -- in this legislation, or in this 18 amendment rule. 19 One about the lowest quartile that must 20 gain as well. That was a very important aspect 21 by the legislators. All the students must 22 perform. It separates the schools by 23 performers, and separates students by their 24 performance. 25 Relaxing the regulations for student -- for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 392 December 14, 1999 1 schools, not only A schools, but those that are 2 doing well for two years in a row and 3 exceptionally gaining, the expectation being 4 the same for all students in schools. 5 One thing that this rule I think is doing 6 is bringing the parents and the public into the 7 loop of the education. 8 I have seen that -- when I've gone to 9 school in previous -- in the previous years 10 when we were talking about levels, that the 11 parents didn't know anything about it. By 12 actually grading schools by grades, we're 13 actually making something that's understandable 14 to all. 15 The Legislature was concerned about the 16 mobility and the stability. I believe by 17 enrolling the students, and according to this 18 rule where they're in both the second and the 19 third quartile of the -- quarter of the school 20 addresses that issue. 21 It changes the F school from what's saying 22 critically low performing to failing to make 23 adequate progress, which is, I think, a very 24 fine distinction. But what it states is that 25 we're going to be looking at the gains of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 393 December 14, 1999 1 students. 2 It gives assistance and intervention to F 3 and D schools on different levels. On the 4 Commission -- Commissioner level with his 5 grants, and the improvements assistance and the 6 resources and identifying etiologically similar 7 schools; and on the District level by 8 increasing their levels of assistance; and -- 9 and providing emergency action; and on the 10 State Board act-- level, for those schools that 11 are not performing well, for the F schools. 12 I did want to mention something on the 13 analysis by Pinellas County, and -- and mention 14 a few things that have been addressed. 15 Number one is the poverty factor. I don't 16 believe that that is -- really has any basis. 17 It's an inclusion of a -- a fudge factor. 18 It -- the A schools have a -- a lower percent 19 of students on free and reduced lunch than 20 F schools. 21 But we have found, as a -- we have found 22 that as we've -- with Dr. Fisher, something 23 that happens to be in a -- in a school, there's 24 not necessarily a correlation. 25 Just because something is in the same spot, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 394 December 14, 1999 1 it doesn't show that there's a causal 2 relationship. And we can relate that to any 3 issue, water and fish happen to be in the same 4 position, and if you throw a coin in, one 5 doesn't mean that one is always present with 6 the other. 7 The logic is false. As a scientist by 8 background -- and I didn't go into my 9 background. 10 But I was Chairman of the -- I'm Chairman 11 of the Senate Education Committee, and was 12 prime sponsor of this legislation as well, as 13 Co-Chair on the -- the Senate and the House 14 Conference Committee. 15 But -- and my background, I have my 16 graduate degrees in science. And I was very 17 interested, not only during our discussion in 18 the Legislature, but -- 19 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 20 SENATOR COWIN: -- in this analysis as far 21 as trying to put the poverty factor, or any 22 other factor in the data. 23 The collection of the information must be 24 pure. And as we know, we can correct for these 25 variables by including controlled experiments, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 395 December 14, 1999 1 as you know in comparing one group to another. 2 The Board should reject the factor of -- of 3 poverty. This was completely discussed and 4 debated in the Legislature, but was rejected 5 when it, in fact, was presented by an 6 amendment. And it was never what the 7 Legislature wanted. And I believe it's 8 actually contrary to the law and its intent. 9 Furthermore, when we did an interim study 10 with the Senate Education staff, we found that 11 students that are in F and D schools have 12 inflated grades. 13 If we put those same students, and put them 14 in higher level schools, we find that they do 15 poorer. And so when we're looking at the 16 F schools, we're doing things differently. 17 We're giving students grades perhaps to make 18 them feel good. And I heard a lot about this 19 feel good attempt by different legislation. 20 I think it's important to have the learning 21 gains. The Legislature supported this as a 22 measure of performance in schools, and even 23 specifically debated this one issue, and put it 24 in as a value added model when measuring and 25 rewarding teacher performance, which in a few ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 396 December 14, 1999 1 years hopefully we'll be coming to that point 2 by looking at the gains of the students in the 3 D and F sch-- and in the -- in the A and 4 B schools. 5 The attendance and discipline measures -- 6 the Senate Committee on School Safety had 7 concerns regarding the out-of-school 8 suspensions, and this was addressed during this 9 summer as a measure of grading schools. 10 It was thought, not that it's a bad 11 indicator of actually a good school or a school 12 that has had some problems. And in a perfect 13 world, discipline data such as the 14 out-of-school suspensions might be a good 15 indicator of the grading of the school. 16 But what's -- there was a fear that the -- 17 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 18 SENATOR COWIN: -- some principals might 19 sacrifice doing the right thing for discipline 20 to get a better grade for the school. 21 Attendance was a major concern. But, 22 in fact, we put in an average daily attendance 23 in the formula as a way of achieving dollars in 24 FTE, instead of doing FTE week, so I would 25 think that it would be also a great indicator. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 397 December 14, 1999 1 I think the -- there is one problem, which 2 I have noticed, and I only -- it -- it came to 3 me actually very early this morning from 4 something that was said to me yesterday. 5 And I think we really need to look at this, 6 and perhaps by administrative rule, that when 7 we're doing the measurements, especially in 8 elementary schools and in the fourth grade, 9 that we should look particularly to the 10 movement of the students mid-year, because 11 there is an attempt at least in one school to 12 move students from the fourth grade into the 13 fifth grade mid-year so that they don't test in 14 the fourth grade reading and writing, and 15 actually test in the -- perhaps in the -- in 16 the math. 17 I -- I think we should monitor the student 18 acceleration mid-year in all grades as a -- 19 when we discuss that social promotion, but 20 specifically before we get to the testing this 21 year. 22 The use of other data to measure schools. 23 The Legislature wanted each school to have a 24 profile. And this is -- this is important in 25 that the -- when they're talking about the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 398 December 14, 1999 1 school accountability reform, the profiling and 2 all those extra things that we put in the law, 3 like school suspension and the distribution of 4 the grades and the graduation rate and the 5 stability and the dropout rate and attendance, 6 that was put in not as a way necessarily of 7 only grading schools, but as giving information 8 to -- to parents so that they would know what 9 schools they would go to. 10 And -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I ask you -- just -- 12 the -- the rule as amended complies with 13 legislative intent. 14 SENATOR COWIN: Yes. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: You started that. And -- 16 and we -- you have -- we have a letter from -- 17 I don't know what it -- the Joint 18 Administrative -- 19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: JAPC. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't want to say that. 21 Whatever it's called -- that -- that also 22 states that as well. 23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's correct. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Which seldom do we have 25 rules that have already gotten kind of a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 399 December 14, 1999 1 Good Housekeeping seal of approval by the 2 Legislature in advance. I've not seen that 3 before. 4 And that kind of -- that's the bottom line, 5 isn't it? 6 SENATOR COWIN: Absolutely. And I want to 7 encourage you -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Not the -- it's not the 9 final line, but it's the bottom line. 10 SENATOR COWIN: Exactly. 11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It's the bottom 12 line. 13 SENATOR COWIN: There -- there's a book, 14 Who Moved My Cheese? And I'm -- obvious-- it's 15 a very short book, but it really tells us -- 16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: She's going to 17 read it to us. 18 SENATOR COWIN: And I'm -- I'm not going to 19 read it to you. 20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Even though it's 21 short, it's too long. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's been a long day, Anna, 23 and I -- first of all, I -- it's been a long 24 day. That -- that is for sure. 25 I appreciate everything that you did. This ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 400 December 14, 1999 1 was a comprehensive bill that took a lot of 2 work and a lot of leadership to get passed, and 3 we haven't commended -- 4 SENATOR COWIN: And you shouldn't change a 5 thing. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the reporters said I 7 haven't commended you for it, and I want to 8 publicly commend you again. But I think we got 9 the gist as it relates to the rule. Don't -- 10 SENATOR COWIN: Don't -- don't change a 11 thing, just move ahead and vote -- vote for the 12 rule. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay, Governor. 15 To set the parameters, I'd like to move that 16 the State Board of Education adopt the proposed 17 amendment to Rule 6A-1.09981 as modified by the 18 changes presented in my memorandum of 19 December 14th, 1999, to the members of the 20 State Board of Education. 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 23 second. 24 Any discussion? 25 Commissioner Nelson. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 401 December 14, 1999 1 TREASURER NELSON: Are we in the posture -- 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have now -- 3 TREASURER NELSON: -- to discuss? 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- eliminated -- there's no 5 more public discussion. We've -- there's been 6 a motion and -- of the -- of the rule as 7 amended. And there's been a second. 8 There's discussion now. 9 TREASURER NELSON: Well, Governor, I have 10 not said much today, and I've listened 11 carefully to all of the testimony. 12 And I -- I want to point out a couple of 13 things that I think that have been very 14 important statements of policy here today. 15 The first is something that 16 Superintendent May said that what he is looking 17 for is a year's worth of progress in a year's 18 worth of work and learning. 19 And as we look to the future on how we are 20 going to measure and hold accountable our 21 school system, of which all of us are trying to 22 get to the same goal, it seems to me that his 23 suggestion is a very worthwhile one in bringing 24 about accountability of the students' progress. 25 My concern is not the FCAT, which we've had ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 402 December 14, 1999 1 a lot of testimony about that today. The FCAT 2 is designed to measure what it's designed to 3 measure. My concern is the system that we have 4 set up, and then the distribution of resources 5 according to that system. 6 It seems that the system distributes 7 resources to those who do the best. And now 8 you're trying to amend that in this rule, and 9 I think that's a -- a salutatory amendment. 10 But there's a provision in the basic law, 11 perhaps you and the Legislature may want to 12 address that as a policy matter by the 13 year 2002, the salary schedule adopted by the 14 School Board must base at least 5 percent of 15 the salary of school administrators and 16 instructional personnel, teachers, on the 17 annual performance measured by the grading 18 system that we've seen, which you're measuring 19 the school instead of the individual students' 20 performance, and that school is ranked with 21 other schools. 22 And I just don't think that that's the 23 appropriate way to measure the progress. 24 If a -- if a wonderful teacher were to go 25 into an F school and give tremendous vitality ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 403 December 14, 1999 1 to her class, and there were substantial 2 progress, and yet that overall school is still 3 rated an F school, that tremendous measure of 4 accomplishment is not being recognized in this 5 particular system. 6 And as a matter of policy, I wanted to 7 state my concern for the record, and let 8 you know why I will be voting -- for this 9 member of the State Board of Education, that I 10 will be voting against this proposed rule. 11 Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If I -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Gallagher. 14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- may, just 15 quickly correct a statement that you made, 16 Commissioner Nelson, and that is that if, 17 in fact, under the rule that you read there in 18 regards to teacher pay, that would be based not 19 on where the school is, but on where that 20 teacher's students are, and the improvement 21 that those students made. 22 And the truth of the matter is, that there 23 are many teachers in D and F schools today that 24 are doing a tremendous job, and we can use 25 exactly what Superintendent May said about ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 404 December 14, 1999 1 Bibbs and Dixon and the increases of learning 2 in those students. 3 And that law that you're referring to 4 allows those teachers in that school to get the 5 rewarded increase of 5 percent based on the 6 outcome of those students that they deal with. 7 And so what you're saying is that you think 8 it's good, actually is what happens under the 9 law as it now exists. And so that's probably a 10 good reason -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: What -- 12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- why it 13 shouldn't change. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: To clarify this for a 15 second, we also -- year 2002 will be when there 16 will be annual student learning -- 17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Measurement. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- gains measured, because 19 you'll have the baseline and the second year's 20 test -- you know, the first year's test. 21 So the -- which, you know, again, for a 22 sense of history, this proposal was outlined in 23 a campaign, got beat up pretty good, was 24 proposed by people in the Legislature, annual 25 learning gains was always part of it, was ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 405 December 14, 1999 1 passed. The rule reflects the law. 2 And it's always been our intent to do that, 3 because not only is Superintendent May an 4 advocate of -- of annual student learning 5 gains, so am I, and so are you, and so is 6 everybody else that I'm aware of. And teacher 7 performance should be measured by how teachers 8 do in that regard. 9 And by year 2002, they'll be able to do it, 10 based on an individual child's year-to-year 11 performance, based on their -- their FCAT test 12 scores I think. 13 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, if I might -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir. 15 TREASURER NELSON: -- true accountability 16 means creating positive consequences for 17 success, and negative consequences for failure. 18 And when you judge that success or failure 19 on the basis of the whole school, you have 20 missed a major part of the incentives that we 21 are trying to induce into the system. 22 That's why I hope that you all as -- as -- 23 and I will be here for the next year, and will 24 continue to articulate this. I think you're 25 moving in the right direction. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 406 December 14, 1999 1 I think the legislation that was passed by 2 the Legislature was significantly flawed. It 3 had a reverse Robin Hood philosophy of taking 4 from the poor, and giving to the rich. 5 And I think you are beginning to start to 6 correct that with some of the changes 7 articulated in this rule today. 8 But ultimately, we're going to have to be 9 able to measure a student's progress, and the 10 ability to reward a teacher in the classroom 11 for that teacher's performance, not based on 12 some bell curve of all schools rated against 13 each other. 14 And so I -- I commend you, Governor, for 15 the progress that I think is starting on a 16 flawed system that was adopted by the 17 Legislature, which in large part was driven by 18 a political objective of vouchers. 19 But in the process, I think that, as so 20 many have articulated here today, that the 21 discussion is -- is very healthy. 22 I commend you, Governor, as I have stated 23 on many occasions, for being able to have 24 policy discussions, as we have, and I think 25 that we're moving in the right direction. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 407 December 14, 1999 1 Thank you. 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yes, Governor, just 5 briefly. 6 My wife taught this -- public school in the 7 state for many years, my -- my kids went to 8 school here. In fact, my daughter's still in 9 public school. 10 I -- I think we've got a -- a very -- a 11 great public education system in Florida. 12 In fact, some of our best schools in the nation 13 I think are -- are maybe not too far from where 14 we sit. 15 But I think also our leaders here, and -- 16 and across the nation are -- are asking more 17 out of this country's education system, 18 particularly as we're compared to other 19 nations. When you see Japan and Germany, even 20 Russia, have achievements in some areas that 21 are greater than ours, I think we have to ask 22 for more. 23 And that's the quote that Governor Bush 24 read from President Clinton, I think that's 25 what got President Clinton to make those ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 408 December 14, 1999 1 statements. 2 I read another quote of a leader: All 3 students must be expected to achieve at higher 4 levels, even the face of unpleasant results on 5 new tests. 6 That's Governor Lawton Chiles in his 7 commission on education in 1998. 8 So I think what we're here -- saying here 9 today to the public education, we're raising 10 our -- our standards. The heat is on. And I 11 think in the end, we won't have any failing 12 schools in this state, and our students will 13 benefit from that. 14 And -- and I think this rule today will go 15 a long way in achieving that, and that's why 16 I'm voting for it. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if 18 I can -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, General. 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I agree 21 with what most people have said about this 22 being a very good, strong, positive step and 23 corrects a lot of the problems in our past. 24 And I do think that what we are doing is 25 dramatic for education, and especially the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 409 December 14, 1999 1 person we care about the most, that being a 2 child. 3 What concerns me though is that we -- that 4 we appear to be blaming public education as the 5 sole cause for our children's failure in 6 school. I don't think we want to -- we don't 7 want it to be that way. When I set forth, it's 8 not. 9 That's why, as I advocated before, we have 10 to put money into that early childhood 11 learning, we have to deal with the children, we 12 need a principal in the feeder neighborhoods 13 before they get to school. 14 The one thing I don't like about this, 15 and -- is the fact that we can have a -- a D or 16 an F school do real, real great things, and -- 17 in providing, as was stated in Pensacola, more 18 than one year of education in one year. 19 Therefore, for that, I'm going to vote 20 against this also. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion? 22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- I guess I 23 might as well ring in here, too. Everybody 24 else seems to want to talk, so I might as well 25 talk. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 410 December 14, 1999 1 Let me -- let me just say, I -- I've been 2 sitting on this Board now for five years. And 3 four and five years ago, I heard the dialogue 4 about the level of education we were providing 5 to our young people in this state, and how 6 atrocious it was, how ill-prepared they were to 7 go into the marketplace. 8 And I listened to a guy sitting down at the 9 other end there named Frank Brogan, who talked 10 about trying to bring a world class education 11 system to Florida, about raising the bar of 12 academic standards. 13 And, by God, the bar has been raised. And 14 I'm not going to be one of those that's going 15 to even lower it an inch. If anything, I want 16 to see it go higher. 17 So I enthusiastically support the direction 18 we're going, and I support this rule. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 20 Any other discussion? 21 Well, there's a motion and a second. 22 All in favor, say aye. 23 THE CABINET: Aye. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 411 December 14, 1999 1 TREASURER NELSON: No. 2 The ayes have it. 3 Thank you all very much. 4 (The State Board of Education Agenda was 5 concluded.) 6 * * * 7 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at 8 4:12 p.m.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 412 December 14, 1999 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 342 through 411 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of eddy of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 28TH day of DECEMBER, 1999. 18 19 20 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR 100 Salem Court 21 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. |